Fighters vs. Scouts (tanking wise)

[SkySava]

Man, am I the only one who are finding that scouts have gone off the deep end as the Super Class (tm)? I've grouped with several now that were all my level (51) and they not only blow the damage out like it's a candle in a hurricane but they can also tank fairly well too! I first thought, "Well, I can't keep the agro unless the mobs are fighting me. But if the DPS peeps pull ago they will die quick and learn their lesson." WRONG. Hell, they just pull agro and become the primary tank. They can't mitigate well but their avoidance works just fine and gives the healers plenty of time to heal them up. Everyone knows that a fighter is "better" at it or "more efficient" but seriously, if scouts are doing mage-quality damage shouldn't they take a serious hit to defense and avoidance? What's the balance here?

 

The worst part comes when they finally do bite off more then they can chew. They don't get killed quickly (because of their high avoidance) but the healers start to heal them with bigger heals... thus drawing agro to them. BAM, the healers drop like flies (cause we all know that Full Plate armor that Templars can wear is worse then wearing Chain /sarcasm off) and then what does the scout do? Simple... evac. So healers are taking the punishment that scouts should be taking.

 

I know, I know... Scouts just have to learn how to play with the new combat system. The problem is that the combat system doesn't punish them for playing poorly. It punishes the healers. It also makes the fighters truly feel like they aren't needed and should be replaced with someone who can kill the mob faster.

 

Bottom line, fighters are a dying breeed. Ask anyone who has a high level fighter AND a high level scout. They will tell you immediatly that it's no fun playing their fighter when they can do so much more as a scout.  

[Gungo]

IMHO very light, light, and medium armour need a ~10% drop in base avoidance this will solve alot of the issues associated w casters, scouts and brawlers avoiding and tanking better then gaurds. 

[Krooner]

Gungo:

 

Thanks for the effort partner but its never going to happen.

Moorguard is never going to nerf his own class.

 

[SkySava]

Yeah, the avoidance rules should be different for scouts compared to avoidance tanks. For example: Monks know how to take better advantage of light armor then scouts do thus gaining a better avoidance number. I know that scouts rely on their avoidance to solo but it's out of hand that is works as well in groups as it does solo. Perhaps that's the core of the issues.... classes are being balanced around soloing capability instead of their group function. Everyone (even myself) am very happy with the way every class can solo. But it's getting very near to the point that soloing is just easier, makes more money, and the difference in exp gain is barely noticable.

[SkySava]

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Warbird1 wrote:

Gungo:

Thanks for the effort partner but its never going to happen.

Moorguard is never going to nerf his own class.

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While I lean heavily to agreeing with you on this I have resigned that the devs are gonna make brawlers/bruisers better then warriors at being MT. The thing that makes me want to shelf EQ2 the most is entirely other archetypes fullfilling my role. I'm re-subscribing to CoH tonight and gonna split my time between EQ2 and CoH this month. If CoH pulls me back (for more fun playing time) then I may stay there until D&DO. But I don't want to derail this topic nor change the focus that scouts need to take more damage to be balanced. 

[Gungo]

avoidance and scaling is only part of the problem.

 Ignore the part between the lines as it doesnt pertain to this thread exactly.

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I don't buy the mentality that if all tanks tanked equal they would be the same. For instance their is 5 other subclasses in the fighter tree.

If shadowknights zerkers and bruiser all tanked the same and do relativly the same damage would anyone complai they are the same class no why because thier abilites are completly different. Then why can't paladins gaurdians and monks tank on par. Wait guards have ntohign else to offer ok then give guards something else but not superior tanking.

asking to be the best tank is like templars asking to be the best healer. It doesnt work on thier boards either, why should it work here. Currently wardens can not heal as well as templars healers. What would your response be to them your suppose to suck your not a templar. But you get nifty buffs make friends with a templar and maybe he will let you become a support healer in groups.

The main difference in tanking and healing compared to dps/utility classes is if a class is not comparable in tanking or healing that class risks dieing and wiping the entire group. But if a dps class is not adding the same amount of direct dps then it only takes a few more seconds to kill. Tanking an dhealing are corner stones to MMORPGames. You make one class inferior in thier primary role give them a shiny spoon (utility) and tell them hey look you suck at tanking but you got a shiny spoon it leaves that class unbalanced.  

I am not saying tanking is balnced atm i do believe that if sixman's numbers are correct that light. verylight and medium need to have its innate avodiance lowered by 10%. But increasing tanking on guards is not a good solution. I stated already my ideas several times and reasons that increased mitigation is not a good solution and there are guards who agree it will not solve alot of the issues that came with DoF. (although there are still some who want more mitigation anyway). More is not the answer i actually like that the current gameplay is harder. Tanking an orangecon really is a a case by case basis. Red cons hell no. yellow and whites are peoples primary source of xp atm. Sure raid mobs are near impossible atm but when they revamp them to be inline to the current tanking of guardians everything should be fine. Now i hear guardians complaining that mobs kill them fast and that other non tank classes tank comparably well. Wouldn't a 10% base avodiance reduction reduce the chance of scouts tanking in groups. Wouldn't a 10% avodiacne reduction reduce brawlers soloing heroics. How come i hear people saying DoF content is to easy. The issue is not that guards can't tank the issue is that non tanks are almost as good tanking then guards. The issue is that brawlers appear to tank better. I'll get into why in a moment.

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Begin discussion from here:

I think i found out half the problem. If you are trying to tank in regular handcrafter you are going to be taking alot more damage then legendary and fabled. Sadly people asked for upgrades to have significant meaning. And they do now a legendary fighter tanks way better then a handcrafted fighter, a fabled fighter tanks way better then a legendary one. Add to the fact that rare leather is pitifully cheap and ebon was so much more expensive. You have brawlers in pretty much standard legendary gear. Of course all brawlers out tank you. This issue should be getting fixed as soon as the market starts to settle down. Like i said before rare harvests are simply a joke now. The new norm in another month will start to be legendary t6 crafted armour and adept 3 spells. They beta tested this expansion based on people in t6 gear. And the mitgation on t6 has radically changed.

furthermore avodiance seems to mostly follow a characters lvl (agi, buffs, innate bonus that never changes) whereas mitigation is aminly given from items. So now you have lvl 50+ gaurds wearing gear that caps out at lvl 40 (t5 crafted) comparing themselves to brawlers whose main form of defense follows thier lvl.

The best comparison between 2 classes would be two lvl 40s in handcrafter t5 gear or two lvl 50's in t6 crafted gear.

Continuing further tanking related issues:

Priest on a whole do not have the healing potential on a raid they did before, this is an undeniable fact.   Priest are also having stacking issues.    Spells within the same tier overwrite each other regardless of quality....being an Adept 1 will overwrite a Master 2.   This is just poor/lazy coding in my eyes.   Single target spells don't stack within the subclass,   before a templar would overwrite a templar, but now a cleric overwrites a cleric.   Same for shaman and druids.   This again reduces healing potency.   In essence, a majority of the priest on raid are limited to ONLY two heal spells.  Fast single target direct heal, and heavy single target direct heal.  By far the least efficent.    With the current design, each priest can't heal at 100% efficency, due to conflicts with other players.   A limitation which can be avoided since so much coding was put in for people to stack better with each other.     Each priest should be allowed to heal his best, anything else should be honored with a valid reason.  If I spend 140 power casting my Templar only heal on the Main tank, then I expect to get my 140 power out of it. 

priest discussion provided by:

Athian Miere
52nd Barbarian Templar
Paradigm-Unrest

MORE OLD ARGUMENTS:

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the reasons mitigation wont solve the current guards issues are:

1) many mobs in DoF ignore trauma mitigation (also known as your AC (slash/peirce/crush) Big reason why non-plates tank well. No reason why guards should not have higher avoid then scouts.

2) the 80% cap can be easily reached in group settings and at 60 w full fabled or t6 armour this issue will be even more pronounced. thus allowing brawlers to obtain the same mitigation and higher avodiance since avodiance can not be raised as much.

3) upping mitigation will not prevent scouts from having higher avodiance then gaurds thus tanking DoF mobs better.

4) brawlers soloing lower lvl heroic content that other fighters can not solo.

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Gungo Ninescullz lvl 50 bruiser
Officer of A.O.D.----innothule server
over 900+ quests served

Message Edited by Gungo on 09-27-2005 01:43 PM

[Vandame]

I have noticed the same thing with wizards and as a Guardian I have started to use it to the groups advantage by casting my protection spells on them and letting them tank.  There is no way I can even come close to generating as much agro as they can and have since given up carrying around a shield and using my taunt skills.On raids it’s a different story as scouts drop quickly when they pull agro from raid mobs thus the role of a fighter as the MT still exists.  But in single groups why not use their high avoidance to the group’s advantage.  Place your three protection spells on them to help offset any possible damage they would be dealt and watch just how fast mobs can be ran over.

Of course I still suck at DPS, but it seems to be offset by our now functional protection spells.  This is not to say our class is not majorly flawed as a fighter tank class, but we do have some intresting means to still support our groups that is not avalible to the other fighters.

[SkySava]

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Vandamear wrote:

I have noticed the same thing with wizards and as a Guardian I have started to use it to the groups advantage by casting my protection spells on them and letting them tank.  There is no way I can even come close to generating as much agro as they can and have since given up carrying around a shield and using my taunt skills.

On raids it’s a different story as scouts drop quickly when they pull agro from raid mobs thus the role of a fighter as the MT still exists.  But in single groups why not use their high avoidance to the group’s advantage.  Place your three protection spells on them to help offset any possible damage they would be dealt and watch just how fast mobs can be ran over.

Of course I still suck at DPS, but it seems to be offset by our now functional protection spells.  This is not to say our class is not majorly flawed as a fighter tank class, but we do have some intresting means to still support our groups that is not avalible to the other fighters.

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Wow... just wow.... this is totally sad that is is comming to this. That we are now giving up our role as a tank and becomming a full fledged utility class. This game is totally going the wrong way when considering what a class is supposed to do. I truly hope they fix this issue ASAP. Even though they have tried to make these combat changes in order to make the game more balanced I think they need to recognize the things that the players have do to their system. Just because a group of talented people design a system doesn't mean 100,000 people are going to use it that way. Please SOE own up and be flexible.  

[Vandame]

I agree SkySavage, I am mearly shareing the means I have had to go through to continue participating in groups and gaining exp and loot.   I have not yet given up on my guardian as I have played him since release and will be getting him to level 60.  But as it currently stands I dont see him participating in any raids.  He has for the time be outcasted to the side lines as a MT fullfilling no signifigant role beyond a friend in groups.  Of course all plate wears are experancing the same issue in small groups.  I am wondering what the effects would be if i where to put on monks clothing allowing for the increase agility along with my line of mitigation buffs.  Would I once again find a way to tank?

[SkySava]

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Vandamear wrote:
I agree SkySavage, I am mearly shareing the means I have had to go through to continue participating in groups and gaining exp and loot.   I have not yet given up on my guardian as I have played him since release and will be getting him to level 60.  But as it currently stands I dont see him participating in any raids.  He has for the time be outcasted to the side lines as a MT fullfilling no signifigant role beyond a friend in groups.  Of course all plate wears are experancing the same issue in small groups.  I am wondering what the effects would be if i where to put on monks clothing allowing for the increase agility along with my line of mitigation buffs.  Would I once again find a way to tank?

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Ooo, that may be a good idea. Perhaps I should check the bazaar for some light armor with agility bonuses tonight. Push up my avoidance and see if it's better. I guess if you can't beat em... join em. No more expensive plate armor for me! WOOT!

[Raahl]

Gungo, why do you post the same post over and over again?  You add little to the discussion.  Try posting a link to the other thread or something.   Repeating something does not make it true or any more valid.

 

Ok Back on the topic.

On the topic of Scouts tanking, I have not noticed this.  Though most of the scouts I group with are bards.  I have yet to play my Ranger much so I cannot comment on his tank skills.

I think the biggest issue is that they Avoid decently, have marginal mitigation and deal a lot of damage.  The faster a battle is over the better.   If a scout had to fight longer battles I think they would lose out.  Plus if they have legendary/fabled armor, they are probably close to the mitigation of a plate tank. 

Again I have not witnessed this first hand.  So I could be wrong.

I might try and outfit my level 30 Ranger with legendary and compare it to my 43 Guardian.  Yea they are not the same but it might show some interesting things. 

Message Edited by Raahl on 09-28-2005 01:49 PM

[Gungo]

Its easier to cut and paste then retype.

People tend not to follow links.

And posts seem to get lost in the void of whines on the gaurdian board.

The idea behind armour quality vs avodiance and non-trauma based damage is relevant to scouts tanking comparable to plate.

[SkySava]

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Raahl wrote:

On the topic of Scouts tanking, I have not noticed this.  Though most of the scouts I group with are bards.  I have yet to play my Ranger much so I cannot comment on his tank skills.

Message Edited by Raahl on 09-28-2005 01:49 PM

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Yeah, I'm sorry when I lumped bards with scouts. IMO Bards aren't scouts nor DPS peeps... they are the greatest utility class and where I would hope the idea of "scouts" should have been in the first place. What I am discussing with tanking abilities are Brigans and Predators. Played with more last night... same result. "Guardians, use your buffs on the Assassin and let him tank so he can dish out alot of damage and you can take some of his hits." Man, was that fan... /sarcasm off. Time to wait and see if they fix this or to re-evaluate where I subscribe to an MMO. 

[Gungo]

They probably should raise plate avoid 5% (could add 5% more block to shields) and lower non plate avoid 5%.

[TanRaistlyn]

Ive found that Scouts tank just as well as me, esp when Im in their group and they are enjoying my "protection skills" and my Defense buffs, they become just as good if not better tanks then I am.  Great system we have going right now...And answer me this is all Fighter classes can Tank the same, Why Dont all scout classes DPS the same? why leave bards out of the "dps scout tree" theory.  Or is it just fighters that this equality among the classes stem from...

 

Covenant

[ChrisRay]

I dunno. My troubador does pretty insane damage when using the right offensive songs. Aria of Excitement line increases my DPS by 20%.

[SkySava]

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TanRaistlyn wrote:

Why Dont all scout classes DPS the same? why leave bards out of the "dps scout tree" theory.  Or is it just fighters that this equality among the classes stem from...

Covenant

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It's not just rogue classes with the desparity, Mages have it with enchanters as well. It's because they are actually unique and they are great utility classes. If they wanted them organized they should have placed Sorc and Conjurors with Predators and Rogues into a DPS archetype and then place Bards and Enchanters into a Utility Archetype. That's what they are defining for them.

Anyways, back on topic... The protection buffs are fine and nice but they are being used on scouts and not other tanks. So I'm not sure if they are trying to relegate Guards to secondary tank only or trying to make all other fighter classes not needed in leau of a scout with a Guardian. Matter of fact, the "new tactics" that the devs seem to want us to find may be to have a Guardian as an assist to the Scout MT. Wow, this combat revamp is really messing with the entire idea of what a fighter is. Honestly, I think it would be easier if they fix scouts instead of leaving all fighters broke and working to "fix" them. Many people, including in this thread, have given good examples on how to fix this but I wonder if SOE is listening. Put scouts avoidance down. Simple enough. Make them not want to be the center of a mobs attention. Currently, they don't mind it at all.