Co-op strike on test.

[Netty]

Im glad that you are atleast doing something with it so dont get me wrong. But wouldent it be better if you just increas the damage output from the main mob with a %ish with every add you have on you tanking the main mob?. This way you could make the game alot more fun for the aoe tanks aswell, since you could increas the add numbers you get on mobs. And this would balance out very nice. 20%ish with ever add or something like that. Since then you would get the bad effect but it wouldent kill the tank if he got one of the adds on the MT but you would pref it to go with the OT. Since this would effect Aoes from the main mob aswell.

This way aoe tanks would feel abit more usefull aswell. Since atm you might aswell use 2 ST tanks. Change it this way and add more adds to the fights and you would give the aoe tanks a role aswell and you wouldent have to balance the tanks vs ST. I know this might not be something that will change current raids but still a nice idea imo. All happy and aoe tanks getting something they are good at aswell on raids.

[Fitz]

I'm not quite sure how removing the skill component to handle adds rapidly would make it more fun. Easier? Sure. More fun? Dunno.

[Netty]

Since many classes are built as Aoe classes and raid cont is lacking this. This would make it alot more fun for them. Atm aoe tanks have nothing to shine with and stuff like this would make up for it. And as i said easier? well in a way but if you look at how Co-op strike work atm its just stupid. A damage increas of 20% with every add that hate the same tank as the main named would bring up the aoes from the named even more. So i still dont see it as to easy. Since 20% on normal inc damage on the tank can be fine. But 20% on a aoe can wipe the raid if its a hard hitting one. So it still wouldent be to easy. Co-op strike as it work atm on live with memwiping adds and so on are a freaking pain. Since you never know when they are about to hit. As a guardian its not to bad as i can stoneskin myself right befor the adds do spawn. But how many tanks atm have stuff to survive like that?

Thats why something like this would be nice if it was added. Since then the aoe tanks dont need to be balanced to have stone skins to survive those huge hits. some maybe but not to many. And im not sure about you but i love aoe myself always has and always will. And i bet you it would be the same for many other aoe classes. So yes plain and simple this would be more fun.

[Fitz]

I know what you're saying, but it would remove a large skill component, as I said. Right now, two off tanks are generally needed to respond to adds on some fights, each tank requiring two healers. If adds just made the mob hit 20% harder, not only would you need one or two fewer tanks, but also fewer healers, equating to an easier encounter. The main tank could hold all adds, while everyone burns them. Three healers in his group and voila, encounter trivial.

[Netty]

As i said sometimes you get unlucky with the way it works atm. And that has nothing to do with skills. Its just stupid. Aye on some easier named you probly would be able to have the MT only on the both adds and named. However if you read every thing i said. I said that they should bring in even more adds. So its not only 1-2 adds on the fight. say that you have 6 adds on a fight 6'20% = 120% increas to the main mobs aoe. That would hurt alot for the rest of the raid even if you put 3 healers in the MT group. When im on my zerk OTing say the adds on Kolskeggr i rarly dont want to use my aoes with hate posision. Since then i might get the named aswell and bam. Since you cant controll the memwipe from the adds or the named. You never know how much hate you have. And since the adds sometimes memwipe to the MT he can die from just that. And thats not skill its just stupid.

[Miapa]

Coop strike should not kill a warded tank instantly.  The way that agro and hate work cannot justify this insta-kill.  I think the changes are one good possibility for this annoying 'feature'.

I also have some other options that I think will be viable (as singular options):

- If a tank gets the coop strike debuff, then all incomming damage is increased by a percentage, such as 5%, for each hit that they take (stacking).  This will prevent a tank from tanking multiple mobs for more than a few hits.  The debuff can last somewhere around 10s.

- If the tank gets x amount of triggers in y seconds, then they lose 150% of their HP (one-shot).  So, for example, if the tank gets 8 coop strike triggers in 15s or something, then they die.  This can be adjusted between EM and HM encounters differently where EM has a higher trigger requirement.

[Fitz]

I do agree with the stupidity of the memwipe combo, that's quite ridiculous right now. I think I like Xivian's idea slightly more, although I think it should be permanent on the tank. As in each co-op strike on the tank increases all damage on him for 5%, for the rest of the encounter. It would make losing aggro an issue, but less a total fail condition. The percentage should depend on how often co-op triggers. My two cents. I like the idea of having to segregate and control hate, but when it becomes absurdly chaotic then it's irritating.

[Netty]

I liked his idea aswell all tho making it as you said there would only make the gap on the fighters even bigger.... Im not sure why you want it to be like that.

[Felshades]

I just think its annoying that most of the time(zerkers, crusaders come to mind since our tanks are paladin/sk/zerker) that adds come and then are instantly glued to the MT and then the MT is dead due to co-op strike because of Trample, AE auto attack, Holy Ground, a RNG timed Grave Sacrament, etc. and the other tank can't pull it off.

Even Rescue seems iffy. It SHOULD pull off another player immediately. That's what it was originally intended to do. Pull off immediately. It doesn't half the time. :/

[Banditman]

Just turn Co-op Strike into a 5 second stun which cannot be broken or immuned and you'll fix the entire issue.

[Yimway]

Banditman wrote:

Just turn Co-op Strike into a 5 second stun which cannot be broken or immuned and you'll fix the entire issue.

5 Seconds no hostile / no beneficial and -4000 to all mitigation.

But no point in feedbacking further, once it hits test the decision is final and its what is going live (even if its broken).

[Gaealiege]

I just shorten that up by calling it SOE'd, Atan.

[Bruener]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Banditman wrote:

Just turn Co-op Strike into a 5 second stun which cannot be broken or immuned and you'll fix the entire issue.

5 Seconds no hostile / no beneficial and -4000 to all mitigation.

But no point in feedbacking further, once it hits test the decision is final and its what is going live (even if its broken).

No thanks.  Sit there and be more useless and literally watch your raid wipe?  At least with the new mechanic there is more of a chance to help recover and use some abilities.

TBH get rid of the mechanic all together because it did not accomplish its intended purpose at all.  Guilds use the least amount of Fighters still and usually roll with just 3 Fighters....there is less reason in DoV to bring more Fighters than there was in SF because of how they nerfed them into oblivion in relation to other classes.

Stop caving to jealous DPS classes that couldn't perform their roll to the best of the abilities due to player skill.  Stop creating dumb mechanics that just keep making a Fighters job more and more annoying and simply level the DPS field better.

[Netty]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Banditman wrote:

Just turn Co-op Strike into a 5 second stun which cannot be broken or immuned and you'll fix the entire issue.

5 Seconds no hostile / no beneficial and -4000 to all mitigation.

But no point in feedbacking further, once it hits test the decision is final and its what is going live (even if its broken).

Thats one of the worst ideas i have heard so far. Why not just keep as it is live then? since that would do kinda much the same.

I still like the idea better of just increasing the damage of the main mob with every add on it. And increas the add numbers on most fights. Since then its still abit risky. You would fix the unbalanced stuff for the tank classes atm. And get rid of the silly random death factor du to memwipes.

Im thats something to aim for since we need more aoe fights in raids... Not many fights at all have it atm sadly... And that abit boring when you play a aoe tank. Since you do shine more on aoe cont.

All tho i agree this will get ignored as kinda much everything players post for some reason... I guess we should be glad it got abit better with the Co-op strike....Not much but better.

[Banditman]

No, it wouldn't even be REMOTELY the same as live.

Being stunned just means that the epeens r us crowd will have to, you know, watch the frakking hate meter.  It means that instead of being dead and losing all your aggro, you'll be alive, you'll be able to retain your threat and ultimately, once your OT finally pulls the adds off you, get back to, you know, tanking the mob.

It's still a penalty which will force guilds to off tank / use more tanks, but it won't kill the main tank, either instantly or in 2 seconds.

Coop Strike is a DoT of focus damage.  This means that it ignores Wards and will not trigger reactives.  This change is largely meaningless given the overall aggravation level with Coop Strike.  Instead of dying instantly, the tank dies in 4 seconds or less.  Awesome.

[Yimway]

Banditman wrote:

Being stunned just means that the epeens r us crowd will have to, you know, watch the frakking hate meter.  It means that instead of being dead and losing all your aggro, you'll be alive, you'll be able to retain your threat and ultimately, once your OT finally pulls the adds off you, get back to, you know, tanking the mob.

Coop Strike is a DoT of focus damage.  This means that it ignores Wards and will not trigger reactives.  This change is largely meaningless given the overall aggravation level with Coop Strike.  Instead of dying instantly, the tank dies in 4 seconds or less.  Awesome.

Bingo.

The previous two posters I don't think really understand the difference between live, test and what I proposed.

Rather than being dead, the MT is in timeout until the OT and the raid can do their job.  If it takes them too long to do their job things will go very bad.

The 50% focus damage for 8 seconds in most applications is still going to mean a death anyway, just not as immediate as it is currently on live.

[Bruener]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Banditman wrote:

Being stunned just means that the epeens r us crowd will have to, you know, watch the frakking hate meter.  It means that instead of being dead and losing all your aggro, you'll be alive, you'll be able to retain your threat and ultimately, once your OT finally pulls the adds off you, get back to, you know, tanking the mob.

Coop Strike is a DoT of focus damage.  This means that it ignores Wards and will not trigger reactives.  This change is largely meaningless given the overall aggravation level with Coop Strike.  Instead of dying instantly, the tank dies in 4 seconds or less.  Awesome.

Bingo.

The previous two posters I don't think really understand the difference between live, test and what I proposed.

Rather than being dead, the MT is in timeout until the OT and the raid can do their job.  If it takes them too long to do their job things will go very bad.

The 50% focus damage for 8 seconds in most applications is still going to mean a death anyway, just not as immediate as it is currently on live.

I guess it depends on why you think they are making the change.

From what I know the biggest complaint from a lot of people I know on the mechanic is that when stuff hits the fan other tanks are completely useless for any type of recovery on Fights that have adds despite burning big saves to get it done.  The "stun" or inability to do anything is even worse because it means you can't actually use those big saves for their intended use.

Will tanks still die under the new mechanic some, well yeah.  Will they die all the time, definitely not.  Every fighter out there has tools that they can use under that situation to go a long ways to keeping them alive in that type of situation.

I am not completely happy with the new change.  As I said I think the mechanic should be removed completely.  Its just one more mechanic on a huge stack of changes that keep coming that just hurt Fighter game-play....and once again specifically AE tanking.  Time to start making AE named encounters again where it is more beneficial to use those other Fighters.

[Netty]

Banditman wrote:

No, it wouldn't even be REMOTELY the same as live.

Being stunned just means that the epeens r us crowd will have to, you know, watch the frakking hate meter.  It means that instead of being dead and losing all your aggro, you'll be alive, you'll be able to retain your threat and ultimately, once your OT finally pulls the adds off you, get back to, you know, tanking the mob.

It's still a penalty which will force guilds to off tank / use more tanks, but it won't kill the main tank, either instantly or in 2 seconds.

Coop Strike is a DoT of focus damage.  This means that it ignores Wards and will not trigger reactives.  This change is largely meaningless given the overall aggravation level with Coop Strike.  Instead of dying instantly, the tank dies in 4 seconds or less.  Awesome.

He type no beneficial spells. I take that as heals do no aply to the tank when the buff is up. Im not complaining of your idea with just the stun. But if you cant heal the tank it would be the same as it is now on live. Thats how i read hes post anyway.

[Netty]

Atan@Unrest wrote:

Banditman wrote:

Being stunned just means that the epeens r us crowd will have to, you know, watch the frakking hate meter.  It means that instead of being dead and losing all your aggro, you'll be alive, you'll be able to retain your threat and ultimately, once your OT finally pulls the adds off you, get back to, you know, tanking the mob.

Coop Strike is a DoT of focus damage.  This means that it ignores Wards and will not trigger reactives.  This change is largely meaningless given the overall aggravation level with Coop Strike.  Instead of dying instantly, the tank dies in 4 seconds or less.  Awesome.

Bingo.

The previous two posters I don't think really understand the difference between live, test and what I proposed.

Rather than being dead, the MT is in timeout until the OT and the raid can do their job.  If it takes them too long to do their job things will go very bad.

The 50% focus damage for 8 seconds in most applications is still going to mean a death anyway, just not as immediate as it is currently on live.

no beneficial as you typed out so the tank isent getting healed. Yet we dont understand what you wrote? Its not like the mob is gona magical drop you as a target when you get the buff on you.

[Geothe]

Netty wrote:

Banditman wrote:

No, it wouldn't even be REMOTELY the same as live.

Being stunned just means that the epeens r us crowd will have to, you know, watch the frakking hate meter.  It means that instead of being dead and losing all your aggro, you'll be alive, you'll be able to retain your threat and ultimately, once your OT finally pulls the adds off you, get back to, you know, tanking the mob.

It's still a penalty which will force guilds to off tank / use more tanks, but it won't kill the main tank, either instantly or in 2 seconds.

Coop Strike is a DoT of focus damage.  This means that it ignores Wards and will not trigger reactives.  This change is largely meaningless given the overall aggravation level with Coop Strike.  Instead of dying instantly, the tank dies in 4 seconds or less.  Awesome.

He type no beneficial spells. I take that as heals do no aply to the tank when the buff is up. Im not complaining of your idea with just the stun. But if you cant heal the tank it would be the same as it is now on live. Thats how i read hes post anyway.

No benefitial spells meaning that the tank is in an ability lockdown... he cant cast a save on himself or anything while under the effect, not that he cant be healed.  Several AEs in raids already have similar conditions, although more commonly it is "no hostile actions" as the limiter.

[Netty]

removed DB post..

[Netty]

Geothe wrote:

Netty wrote:

Banditman wrote:

No, it wouldn't even be REMOTELY the same as live.

Being stunned just means that the epeens r us crowd will have to, you know, watch the frakking hate meter.  It means that instead of being dead and losing all your aggro, you'll be alive, you'll be able to retain your threat and ultimately, once your OT finally pulls the adds off you, get back to, you know, tanking the mob.

It's still a penalty which will force guilds to off tank / use more tanks, but it won't kill the main tank, either instantly or in 2 seconds.

Coop Strike is a DoT of focus damage.  This means that it ignores Wards and will not trigger reactives.  This change is largely meaningless given the overall aggravation level with Coop Strike.  Instead of dying instantly, the tank dies in 4 seconds or less.  Awesome.

He type no beneficial spells. I take that as heals do no aply to the tank when the buff is up. Im not complaining of your idea with just the stun. But if you cant heal the tank it would be the same as it is now on live. Thats how i read hes post anyway.

No benefitial spells meaning that the tank is in an ability lockdown... he cant cast a save on himself or anything while under the effect, not that he cant be healed.  Several AEs in raids already have similar conditions, although more commonly it is "no hostile actions" as the limiter.

Ah. Well you cant use anything anyway since you are stunned. Thats why i dident understand what he ment. Im not sure if brawlers have something they can cast when stunned but none of the warriors can. Only the taunt kinda much. So im not sure why he added that. Still dont like the idea so.

[Trynt]

Stuns are easily counterable via several different means, so it's not the same thing at all - which is probably why he added that.

[Yimway]

Bruener wrote:

Will tanks still die under the new mechanic some, well yeah.  Will they die all the time, definitely not.  Every fighter out there has tools that they can use under that situation to go a long ways to keeping them alive in that type of situation.

I think tanks will mostly die anyway under these situations. 

Do tanks have the ability to go 8 seconds with every hit doing 50% focus damage that bypasses wards/reactives?  Yes technicaly some do.

Are atleast 50% of those abilities already on cool down from dealing with the rest of the script when a coop strike hits?  Almost all the time.

I think in practice, most of the time coop will still mean a death, just not immediate this time.

[Yimway]

Trynt wrote:

Stuns are easily counterable via several different means, so it's not the same thing at all - which is probably why he added that.

Correct stun/stiffle is too easily countered while the no hostile / no beneficial effect locks you down to autoattack only and there is nothing that can be done to counter it.

As others mentioned it does nothing to prevent you from being healed, you just aren't going to tank for terribly long completely locked down with an additional 4k mit debuff running.  This forces the raid to still carry OTs and for them to do thier job, the presumable intent of the orriginal coop ability.

The proposed change on test is going to give you 50% focus damage that bypasses wards/reactives each time you are struck by a mob.  Given you get the effect on you when more than one mob is hitting you, the chances of having enough saves up durring one of these challenge fights to survive the number of 50% hp strikes is very low. 

I think Bandit and I are argueing the change to coop strike wasn't really the right change.  Now if that is closer to 30% focus than it is 50%, maybe it is.  The real issue is this wont actually be tested till production, so yay team.

[Netty]

My idea was to help the aoe tanks to OT abit better. I couldent care less if the MT got stunned since the problem on some mobs atm that we cant use out best aoe tool since we get a Co-op strike. When im tanking on my guard its alot easier to prevent Co-op strike as i tend to use stone skin when adds are about to spawn. So even if i get one i can survive This isent the real deal for most of the tank classes tho. I have atm changed back to my zerk as our monk have started MTing. Just since i find the zerk more fun. But its a pain that i can use my tools on him since i would die since a stupid Ab.... Even if they did change it to a stun... OT grabs aggro. get stunned... adds go lose and goes to MT... i mean... Its a bad idea. AT least with the %ish increas on the main mobs damage you still can use those and the MT can snap them back after using something like that. And really thats something to aim for...

I do agree with bruener 100% on some things. We need more aoe enc in this game... We can have like befor so change fights into something inline with Alot of adds the aoe tanks would play a bigger part aswell no? If not then you have to balance every tank class to be able to MT ST mobs and the rest... Add more aoe is a better idea since then it would be abit more diff really.

[Netty]

Infact. Adding more adds in fights and more fights like Gynok and so on would help the game in many way. Not just tanking. I mean lock vs wiz this means you dont have to balance to two on st to make kinda much the same dps. And kinda much the same for the other aoe classes and ST dps classes. You could just balance them aoe vs aoe and st vs st. And thats would save time. And im not saying every enc should have loads of adds on them. But alot more than it is now would make it alot more balanced and fun for aoe and ST classes. Assassin more ST dps ranger more aoe and so on. They can still make the fights special and fun in many ways. Im not sure of the rest of you but i loved Gynok myself. (not at the start befor you had the CM...) But still is a nice fights. Overking is another of the best raid mobs ever made. There are so many ways you can make the fights fun for all classes even if it has alot of aoe in them.

[Banditman]

Listen, you guys who are arguing against this are arguing against it for all the wrong reasons.  You are saying that you can't use your abilities . . . that's not SOE's problem, nor is it Coop Strikes problem.  That's a player problem.

Let's say I am OTing with the new Coop Strike as I described it.  Adds spawn, I crack off Grave Sacrament.  Yes, I am going to get all the adds, and probably the name too.  Guess what . . . that's ok.  Yes, I'm going to get Coop'ed.  Yes, I'm going to be stunned . . . but only until the MT grabs aggro back on the named.  After that?  I'm tanking all the adds, the MT has the name and we all go about our business. 

Nobody had to die to accomplish the goal of forcing more than one tank to deal with the situation.  In fact, if I am being careful as an OT, if I am situationally aware, I know that I don't want to be in the 2 or 3 hate slot.  I want to be a little further down.  Thus, when I crack off Grave Sacrament, I jump up to 2 or 3, but not to 1.  In this case, I've played intelligently, skillfully and I have picked up the adds with no Coop Strike on anyone.

Further down the line, I am OT'ing these adds, and for whatever reason, the MT dies.  The name is now running willy nilly all over the raid.  I rescue the name, and am stunned in short order.  Once again, that's ok.  I have all the mobs, and so long as nobody does anything remarkably stupid, I can hang on to that name for a few seconds until the MT gets back up.  Sure, the DPS has to be careful, and, heaven forbid, learn to control themselves, but a disciplined raid force can now survive.

That to me is a good result.  Incompetent raids still wipe to Coop.  Disciplined raids understand and are able to work through an unfortunate event.

Some of the most exciting and fun pulls are the ones where everything *doesn't* go exactly as planned and through good awareness, intelligent play and patience a group or raid is able to overcome these events.  Right now, Coop Strike prevents the "miracle" comeback.  That to me is a shame.

[Gungo]

The current change is better then live and personally i agree with bruener i do not like en excessive amount of stun abilities that make me unable to play my character.

Another idea for COOP strike is a debuff placed on the tank that reduces healing received by 75% for 5 seconds. This can also mean the tanks death just as easily as a 50% focus damage hit.  

[Netty]

Banditman wrote:

Listen, you guys who are arguing against this are arguing against it for all the wrong reasons.  You are saying that you can't use your abilities . . . that's not SOE's problem, nor is it Coop Strikes problem.  That's a player problem.

Let's say I am OTing with the new Coop Strike as I described it.  Adds spawn, I crack off Grave Sacrament.  Yes, I am going to get all the adds, and probably the name too.  Guess what . . . that's ok.  Yes, I'm going to get Coop'ed.  Yes, I'm going to be stunned . . . but only until the MT grabs aggro back on the named.  After that?  I'm tanking all the adds, the MT has the name and we all go about our business. 

Nobody had to die to accomplish the goal of forcing more than one tank to deal with the situation.  In fact, if I am being careful as an OT, if I am situationally aware, I know that I don't want to be in the 2 or 3 hate slot.  I want to be a little further down.  Thus, when I crack off Grave Sacrament, I jump up to 2 or 3, but not to 1.  In this case, I've played intelligently, skillfully and I have picked up the adds with no Coop Strike on anyone.

Further down the line, I am OT'ing these adds, and for whatever reason, the MT dies.  The name is now running willy nilly all over the raid.  I rescue the name, and am stunned in short order.  Once again, that's ok.  I have all the mobs, and so long as nobody does anything remarkably stupid, I can hang on to that name for a few seconds until the MT gets back up.  Sure, the DPS has to be careful, and, heaven forbid, learn to control themselves, but a disciplined raid force can now survive.

That to me is a good result.  Incompetent raids still wipe to Coop.  Disciplined raids understand and are able to work through an unfortunate event.

Some of the most exciting and fun pulls are the ones where everything *doesn't* go exactly as planned and through good awareness, intelligent play and patience a group or raid is able to overcome these events.  Right now, Coop Strike prevents the "miracle" comeback.  That to me is a shame.

So as it work atm on live im a bad player for not using gibe? and if i do and die im a bad player for that? Since clerly thats my problem and not bad design ? I call that bs. If you get a stun and cant do anything the adds wont stay on you for long. So everytime you are about to take the adds you say ok guys stop dps pls? I mean really? We work around the Co-op strike atm and are killing mobs with it. But sometimes you just get unlucky since thats kinda much what it is luck. Sure even if the MT goes down you could pick him up most of the time and still kill the named. But should it have to be like that? No its just screwed up.

Im sorry i dont think Co-op strike is fun at all and as bruener said its another stupid thing that makes tanking frustrating. I dont mind challange at all but Co-op strike atm is just stupid.