Old Paladin Feedback Thread

[Maergoth]

Following a discussion in the worldwide paladin channel the other night, I remember someone saying they had posted here about some issues the paladin class had. I don't remember who it was, and I don't see the thread.. so here's this.

The paladin class currently has 3 major flaws. Below are the issues and suggested fixes either to AAs or otherwise. Our class focuses are also the worst of any class, without a single desireable one. That would be a good place to start.

1. Spike Damage / One Shots

Shadowknights have many more saves they can use, as well as two more DI triggers. They can preserve those DI triggers much easier by rotating saves, sacrificing one trigger, saves come back up, sacrifice another trigger, saves again, final trigger, DI, saves, DI.

This pattern is similar for other classes. Guardians have stoneskins to prevent these absolutely massive frontal AOEs. Brawlers have more saves than I can even count.

Paladin saves are so weak we have to use multiple saves at once, AND only have one DI trigger. Having one less save translates to us dying three rounds of AOES earlier. Not just one round earlier. We have zero rotation potential, and none of our heals fix thix problem at all.

The solution: Synergize with our passive hategain and change Devout Sacrament into a channeled 5s duration stoneskin. It can completely stun us for all I care, opposed to the similar "Superior Guard". We need an actual stoneskin on a reasonable recast to even remotely scratch the survivability requirements of the expansion. Warriors are monsters of physical damage tanking, there's no reason Crusaders can't have some advantage versus these ridiculous elemental, noxious, and arcane AoEs. Put magic damage reduction on our defensive stance or something instead of arch heal.

         √    Equally useful, but for crusaders in general, would be to allow our Int line reflect to be reuse modifiable. It's currently hard locked at 3 minutes flat. AoEs are every 45 seconds or so on average, meaning it's up every 4 sets of AOES or so. Change the heal potency end line to reuse reduction down to a minute and thirty seconds.

Divine Aura should be changed to damage reduction, or work on the upper 50% of damage instead of only the lower 50%. Either way, the recast needs to be bumped down. Our ward is underpowered as ever, and needs to be higher value. Lower recast WILL NOT even touch this problem, just double or triple the amount and fix the AA for it.

.UPDATE. LC is not enough. Doing the hardest of hardmode content, there is still too much risk of death without a shaman. Yes, tanks should have shamans. Tanks should have a lot of things. We don't, so we don't get primary tank groups, and have to make due with just one priest a lot of the time. Our only niche currently is in the mage group.  We should have at least one reliable save in case, god forbid, we have to do something.

2. Lack of Spike Aggro and Versatility

This becomes less of an issue if the above gets dealt with. Currently, our hate generation is hinged solidly on amends. This used to be fine, but now everyone is capping hate transfers. Where amends gave us the ability to control the direction of our hate generation, now we absolutely have to put it on the highest dps in the group and have them beating on the same target as everyone else. Sigil of Heroism is a big purple "generate slightly more aggro than normal" button. Our versatility is practically gone, and should that passive transfer hate not go as planned, we're in big trouble.

Guardians have reinforcement to do exactly what they need it to. Brawlers have all kinds of unique hate manipulation tools. Our holy ground is a DPS buff that I can't use at will, and it's an aggro tool that doesn't get aggro at will. It's mediocre all around, and while it needed nerfed from the 24 positions it used to be, it's misplaced. Without a solid, unique aggro snap, we can't recover from memwipes or deaths at all. They are the absolute bane of our existence.  Our only option is to stack up on so much virulent ire procs that we can't actually use our AOEs or DPS WITHOUT getting aggro. inb4 put it on your bow. You try that, let me know how well it works.

Monks get something that I believe is the right idea. Holy ground shouldn't have a position itself, so we can use it for DPS without risk. It should however grant our taunts positional increases for the duration. Additionally, uncap hate transfer and we'll be able to work with that at least. This problem has a million solutions. We need positionals, and unique versatility. That's that.

3. Non-Tanking Utility / DPS

Frankly, every single class in the game is getting more and more individually useful. Summoners got their big DPS boost, Shadowknights still have their bloodletters and amazing group buffs to lean on, Guardians are rivaling brawlers in the strength and number of their temps and saves. Oh, and Brawlers have combat mastery which instantly lands them in the scout group.

Paladins, however, have gotten less useful. They have made our heals better since the last time this was all discussed. However, with the massive boost to HP pool since then, they have fallen back into place. We don't need higher values, we need unique tools. The whole problem with the Paladin class is the lack of uniqueness. Our 10 second raid wide buff lost its lustre as being worthy of jcap. Sure, it still helps, but 10 potency and crit bonus is much less noticeable with the huge influx of those stats on every piece of gear.

We aren't particularly useful. We have no contributions to the raid that anyone cares about. Nothing worth attaching a macro for. Nothing that is missed when we're playing a different game instead of raiding as a mediocre class. Our DPS is bottom of the barrel, despite the workarounds such as bowing which are getting squashed.

Lay hands is an ongoing joke, not because it's useless.  Rather, because saving a random scout or mage who is forced to tank following a one-shot paladin and inability to regain control of the mob is the most useful thing the paladin has done all raid. 

We need utility. We don't need DPS. I'm going to catch flak for this, but I don't care. To be wanted in a raid is a great thing. Our mythical clicky is absolutely worthless. Convert it into the mage equivalent of Combat Mastery so we can at least belong in a group. I like that idea, heard it in Paladin chat. Have it apply to priests too, so it can act as a pseudo save when things get dicey. We need group based utility, and an over-all rehashing of our current abilities. The potency/crit bonus has to be fixed to scale like EVERY OTHER EQUIVALENT ENDLINE. Crusader's Faith giving hit rate bonuses is virtually worthless. Granting huge amount of weapon/casting skills would be more useful. Raid read hit rates are close to 100%.  Our DPS can stay the same as long as the hate issues, utility and survivability issues above are addressed.

The changes put through on test virtually ignore all of this.  Power consumption is definitely not the issue. A heal on interecede.. is creative, but useless. Arcane mit debuff on the ward may improve raid parse, but with a 10 second duration it isn't useful or wanted.

I'm not saying our class is currently incapable. I'm definitely not saying we can't perform in specific situations. However, every other class is getting boosted. We are maintaining mediocrity because our abilities all scale poorly with itemization and their uniqueness is being distributed to other classes. Summoners are getting a transfer with the update. Glorious transfer capping for everyone.

The balance discussion usually gets derailed because we are fine for casual raiding and easy fights, we always have been.

I can be thrown into the mage group, amends the warlock, and do better than pretty much any tank in that situation. Other tanks would have aggro issues, where we have amends. Other tanks would have survivability issues without wards, but our heals actually become useful when we're not locked green (Assuming we don't get one-shotted).

The hitch though is that unfortunately, the offtank can't survive in the mage group currently, and they are having groups built around them. If you're getting a tailored group, then that benefit is completely null and void.

• You'll have cleric shaman, which makes our heals near useless.
• You'll have aggro of some kind if you need to hold a mob being burned down. You will most likely get either a dirge or a coercer, making it easy to throw a scout transfer in there.
• At this point we don't really have the advantage of amends because any tank will be getting huge transfers and hate gain. Sure, we will be getting more transfers in most situations and our hate will still "keep up", assuming our amends target is able to stay in on the mob we are fighting. Unfortunately, skirting by is not good. Other tanks have more reliable aggro tools at this point, and can easily be capped on transfers themselves.

So the raid leader has built a solid offtank group.. now to choose the tank for it. If you answered Paladin, you are wrong. So wrong, that you are now aware of our issue. The same goes for the main tank position. There is just someone better for everything, and the more our group gains, the more our class diminishes in excellence.

We are fine for casual raiding, we always have been.

A rez is a crutch for the poor jouster,

heals are crutches for lack of heal buttons being pressed or a single healer group in easy content.

Our hate gain plus weaker positionals are plenty to handle memwipes or death induced aggro recovery in a raid doing much lower damage. Holy ground's numerical threat addition is massive in low threat low dps situations.

Our raid wide potency / crit bonus buff is great for people who don't have all the gear.

This is a pattern that is maintained if you compare our usefulness in endgame raiding versus casual raiding. In pretty much every situation, we seem balanced for doing well facing adversity. We need to be balanced for hardcore raiding as well, and there's absolutely no reason our class can't scale properly. % based heals, or properly modifiable ones. More hate positions somewhere instead of numerical threat on holy ground, since positions take over when DPS ramps up. Saves that don't wimp out when the heat gets turned up (Divine Aura lol).

WE NEED UNIQUENESS. We need to be desireable, and we need to excel at SOMETHING.

I happen to be a self-proclaimed authority on the class in general, and have enough of a grasp on current end-game raiding and the game around me to know that these issues do exist and need to be addressed.  Preferrably before we become the next ranger or berserker. Oh, and fix berserkers too.

[Buzzing]

I endorse this post

Just sayin

[Ufabao]

I completely agree, we have nothing to survive an aoe, and now that every aoe is ranged base and hits for a ridiculous amount when youre close to the mob and in challenge mode, that is a huge deal. on eireen i have to hope that the adds proc glacial deflection so i can survive the aoe, and when it doesnt the aoe will either kill me or drop divine favor. paladins are the only tank without a stoneskin, and stoneskins are more important this expack than they ever have been before. im fine with not having snaps, i actually like holy ground only having 1 snap it makes it viable to use it as an off tank, but it makes it hard to do my job when i die to every aoe any time im near the mob.

[Gungo]

+1

Your complaints and solutions are perfectly balanced with the game.

[Buzzing]

Maergoth wrote:

We need utility. We don't need DPS. I'm going to catch flak for this, but I don't care. To be wanted in a raid is a great thing. Our mythical clicky is absolutely worthless. Convert it into the mage equivalent of Combat Mastery so we can at least belong in a group. I like that idea, heard it in Paladin chat. Have it apply to priests too, so it can act as a pseudo save when things get dicy. We need group based utility, and an over-all rehashing of our current abilities. The potency/crit bonus has to be fixed to scale like EVERY OTHER EQUIVALENT ENDLINE. Crusader's Faith giving hit rate bonuses is virtually worthless. Granting huge amount of weapon/casting skills would be more useful. Raid read hit rates are close to 100%.  Our DPS can stay the same as long as the hate issues, utility and survivability issues above are addressed.

I think you would only catch flak from a few paladins, every paladin that has learned to play the class to it's full potential (that I have ever come in contact with) would agree that our DPS is not our primary function nor is it the aspect that can set us apart from the other tanks.

TBH I wish a few more paladins would voice the need for utility and versitility, rather then the need to boost our dps.

[Ufabao]

Boosting our utility would most likely boost both, SK's get better of both. one of the officers in my old guild was the MT dirge and would complain any time i was the MT because he wanted death march and the SK grp reuse buff from our usual MT/SK

Arch heal should be changed to a stoneskin similiar to the monk stoneskin, short enough reuse to stop every aoe, cant cast CA's/spells with it up

Myth clicky to spell/heal version of combat mastery, i really like that idea.

and 10% reuse and cast speed added to divine inspiration so we can have the same utility as SK's which wont make us OP since we'll still have less dps

If all those changes are made paladins would be on par with other tanks, and not over powered

[circusgirl]

I think you have the problems with Holy Ground absolutely nailed.  It needs to be either a dps boost or a hate boost, not both--giving your taunts a single positional when it's up is an excellent idea.

The true strength of the paladin class, in my opinion (which granted, is as pretty much the only non-paladin tank in my raidforce, so I'm working with second-hand knowledge), is it's flexibility.  A paladin is the ONLY tank that can hold aggro in a raid even if they're completely devoid of dirges, coercers, swashies and assassins--unfortunately, that's a a strength that doesn't mean anything if you do have all those things.  Still, given that they don't need the scout-based classes that are normally the best sources of aggro, I think designing them to have a place in the mage group is an excellent idea.  

As an aside, is the hate transfer cap still 50, or did they increase that with the hate mod cap?  Making a paladin capable of taking full advantage of amends plus hate transfers would give them rock-solid aggro.  

[Maergoth]

That's something else I meant to mention. Paladins do well with poor setups, whereas other tanks kind of rely on being set up for.

I can be thrown into the mage group, amends the warlock, and do better than pretty much any tank in that situation. Other tanks would have aggro issues, where we have amends. Other tanks would have survivability issues without wards, but our heals actually become useful when we're not locked green (Assuming we don't get one-shotted).

The hitch though is that unfortunately, the offtank can't survive in the mage group currently, and they are having groups built around them. If you're getting a tailored group, then that benefit is completely null and void.

• You'll have cleric shaman, which makes our heals near useless.
• You'll have aggro of some kind if you need to hold a mob being burned down. You will most likely get either a dirge or a coercer, making it easy to throw a scout transfer in there.
• At this point we don't really have the advantage of amends because any tank will be getting huge transfers and hate gain. Sure, we will be getting more transfers in most situations and our hate will still "keep up", assuming our amends target is able to stay in on the mob we are fighting. Unfortunately, skirting by is not good. Other tanks have more reliable aggro tools at this point, and can easily be capped on transfers themselves.

So the raid leader has built a solid offtank group.. now to choose the tank for it. If you answered Paladin, you are wrong. So wrong, that you are now aware of our issue. The same goes for the main tank position. There is just someone better for everything, and the more our group gains, the more our class diminishes in excellence.

We are fine for casual raiding, we always have been.

A rez is a crutch for the poor jouster,

heals are crutches for lack of heal buttons being pressed or a single healer group in easy content.

Our hate gain plus weaker positionals are plenty to handle memwipes or death induced aggro recovery in a raid doing much lower damage. Holy ground's numerical threat addition is massive in low threat low dps situations.

Our raid wide potency / crit bonus buff is great for people who don't have all the gear.

This is a pattern that is maintained if you compare our usefulness in endgame raiding versus casual raiding. In pretty much every situation, we seem balanced for doing well facing adversity. We need to be balanced for hardcore raiding as well, and there's absolutely no reason our class can't scale properly. % based heals, or properly modifiable ones. More hate positions somewhere instead of numerical threat on holy ground, since positions take over when DPS ramps up. Saves that don't wimp out when the heat gets turned up (Divine Aura lol).

Keep this all in mind. Will apend it to the main post for ease of access.

[circusgirl]

Your assuming a situation with only one offtank, though.  There's several fights this expansion that are literally impossible without at least 3 tanks--Eireen hardmode for example.  Most raidforces are not going to be running 3 dirges, 3 coercers, and 3 assassins/swashies.  A paladin can be right there in the mage group with a troub and an illy for utility instead of dirge/coercer, have amends on the warlock, and keep those adds with cooperative strike from murderizing the main tank.  Two tanks are absolutely required for most fights, and a great many become easier with a third.  In a three-tank paradigm, a paladin's flexibility is quite desireable.

But you're right--amends puts you too near the hate transfer cap to be quite as nice when you have a good group setup.  I think the hate transfer cap needs to be raised to 100% so that a paladin has an aggro advantage in every situation.  With consistent aggro on lockdown, the paladin's weakness of not having very many snaps becomes a reasonable tradeoff instead of a serious deficiency.  Or they could alter Holy Ground as others have suggested.  Or they could give us more content that needs 3 tanks, so that there's always a place for a crusader in the mage group.  I think that that is one of the absolute best options out there for helping raiding tanks, and they've quite clearly been making a serious effort to do that.  Cooperative Strike, terrorstruck, tank adds that can only be killed by certain classes...they've done a good job of making interesting scripts that will encourage the existence of a 3rd tank.

[Ufabao]

that is one of the worst ideas ive ever heard, making content require 3 tanks that way guilds get a paladin for the mage grp? id rather just get a stoneskin with a good enoug reuse to survive aoes, and maybe some more utility dps or snaps. i dont want to get into the raid because the mob requires 3 tanks and no one else can hold aggro in a mage grp, i want to get into the raid because i can do my job. 

dont get me wrong i love the mage grp, but it would be nice to be able to OT/MT without dying multiple times on a hard fight, and it would be even nicer to be able to get aggro back quickly after a death if i do happen to die

seeing that every other tank has a stoneskin, and paladins are supposted to be a defensive tank, i think its kind of ridiculous that we dont have a stoneskin. especially considering we get outparsed by any equal geared/skilled tank except a guardian, and out tanked by almost everyone, now that brawlers have combat mastery, and berserkers have raid wide multi attack, sk's have max hp debuff, raid wide hp buff, and grp reuse/cast speed, were also far behind utility wise

and i was fine with all of that because i love the paladin class, but now SK's are getting more dps, and 15% strikethrough, and more hp, and we get less power cost on heals, and a heal when your intercept target manages to go a minute and 40 seconds without taking damage,

paladins have been complaining about how bad our ward is all expansion, so they add a debuff to it?

im seriously considering betraying, even though i like the paladin class more than the SK class, i could do a lot more as a SK

[circusgirl]

I was in favor of 3 tank raids when it was monks at the bottom of the pile, and I'm still in favor of them now.  It's just a good policy to have.  Even if they make paladins super-extra-awesome, there will still be some tank class that is ever-so-slightly behind, and they'll be glad of the third slot for a tank in raids.  

Balance is an ongoing challenge, and it will never be perfect.  Right now is the closest to balanced we've had in ages, and it's obviously not perfect.  3 tank raids is a good policy no matter who is on top that month.

[Maergoth]

It has nothing to do with being worse or better than the other tanks, it has to do with being incapable to do the jobs required of ANY tank.

I understand what you're saying about us being a good choice if three tanks are required, but that's entirely false. We're an "acceptable" choice in that situation because someone else can cover for our shortcomings. To say that most guilds won't have three full tank groups is assuming that "most guilds" won't do whatever they have to do to kill a mob. You bet we still have to make three tank groups.

Most fights benefit from having two tanks. Paladins are incapable of offtanking efficiently. Therefor, most fights benefit from having a tank OTHER than a paladin.

Until you have done difficult raid content, you really won't understand what we're saying.

For example, the new Vallons Tower zone, first mob. It does so much damage that the tanks are going to die, it's unavoidable. We use a Guardian, Paladin and Shadowknight. We all have tank groups built around us, and the paladin is so incredibly incapable of helping it's ridiculous.

Guardian tanks, saves saves saves, sk tanks, saves saves saves, Paladin tanks, every save *death*, guardian tanks, save save, sk tanks, save, save, guardian tanks, save, save, paladins still waiting for something to allow them to live for more than five seconds.

I felt like a speedbump, not an obstacle. This is a recurring problem, but on other fights, dying is less frequent so it's less noticeable.

It's to the point where you NEED three tanks, FOUR tanks if one is a paladin. It's THAT bad.

Survivability alone makes paladins undesireable, That's not including our lack of DPS, utility or aggro.

[Bruener]

Maergoth wrote:

It has nothing to do with being worse or better than the other tanks, it has to do with being incapable to do the jobs required of ANY tank.

I understand what you're saying about us being a good choice if three tanks are required, but that's entirely false. We're an "acceptable" choice in that situation because someone else can cover for our shortcomings. To say that most guilds won't have three full tank groups is assuming that "most guilds" won't do whatever they have to do to kill a mob. You bet we still have to make three tank groups.

Most fights benefit from having two tanks. Paladins are incapable of offtanking efficiently. Therefor, most fights benefit from having a tank OTHER than a paladin.

Until you have done difficult raid content, you really won't understand what we're saying.

For example, the new Vallons Tower zone, first mob. It does so much damage that the tanks are going to die, it's unavoidable. We use a Guardian, Paladin and Shadowknight. We all have tank groups built around us, and the paladin is so incredibly incapable of helping it's ridiculous.

Guardian tanks, saves saves saves, sk tanks, saves saves saves, Paladin tanks, every save *death*, guardian tanks, save save, sk tanks, save, save, guardian tanks, save, save, paladins still waiting for something to allow them to live for more than five seconds.

I felt like a speedbump, not an obstacle. This is a recurring problem, but on other fights, dying is less frequent so it's less noticeable.

It's to the point where you NEED three tanks, FOUR tanks if one is a paladin. It's THAT bad.

Survivability alone makes paladins undesireable, That's not including our lack of DPS, utility or aggro.

You guys should really get Brawlers to do everything.

But seriously, yes Paladins need some help.  Its not a Paladin thing though, it is a Crusader/Zerker issue right now.  Not enough tools to compete while all around just taking more damage, getting hit more often.

Hopefully some fixes are coming.

[Buzzing]

Maergoth

Thanks for moving all this to in testing feedback

[Maergoth]

I actually posted it there first, originally. It was buried in the arch heal thread. Obviously it was hard to find, so I figured it's better this way.

[NANEEJE]

Fully endorse this post.  I think he hits the changes we all would like to see right on the money.

I'm sorry, but I don't care what my dps is compared to how much I can stay alive with DOV. The mobs hit crazy hard, require many tools to combat the mission. We need to keep our Bow abilities for snap aggro, and if you are going to change it, better give me back my ire i spent shards on to make my bow my best ability to keep hate when mobs memwipe.

I am still waiting for content where every group needs at least one of each archtype Or you just don't do the zone. Minimum 4 tanks, 4 healers, 4 mages, 4 scouts. That leaves 8 slots for play. Just give me one zone like this

[Faildozer]

I want to touch on some of what Maergoth said while adding in a few suggestions of my own or that I saw and liked.

The lack of tools to help mitigate large amounts of damage from some of these later mobs is pretty glaring. As Boli suggested adding a single charge on hit for 30%+ max health hit magical stoneskin to our stonewall ability with aa. After the nerf to the reuse and damage of legionnaires conviction it isnt worth speccing for and divine aura doesnt absorb anything over 50% damage which is the issue for us, not the small damage which we have no problem with. If you were to make Legionnaires Conviction reuse modifiable or halve its reuse time that would help or give us a 1charge magical stoneskin on stonewall which is a subpar ability compared to what most tanks get.

The other main issue is that the paladin class is balanced around having amends and a 24position rescue in holy ground. Amends is still amazing for keeping threat but with all the memwipes and 1 shots in this expansion we are behind in getting threat back unless wearing multiple ire procs. My suggestion would be make 5 points in the Forced Following aa in the paladin shadows line give amends multiple positions on the initial hit or what would be better would be a 1position per hit proc. Again with all the memwipes and 1 shots this xpansion it would be easy to justify doing so because right now 3 rescues are not enough on a lot of fights.

Another issue is our heals which maergoth did a good job of detailing the issues with. I would just like to reiterate the amount of our ward needs to be increased by a large margin. The group heal heals for ~5k which is laughable unless powerleveling a low level character. Im not even going to start on how poorly the heals tree is set up for paladins. Our class was designed around having heals in place of some tank utility but our heals are not even a drop in the bucket or useful on 90% of the fights. Please rework HOW they work so they add utility. One change that would be great would be changing holy aid to be a %damage reduction for a short time and that would fit in quite nicely with the flow of the class while giving us some added utility.

There are a multitude of other changes that have been addressed but I am not going to address because i would rather the most glaring issues be handled first and I can live with the other stuff. Basically Paladin is a great class but has been neglected when considering how the content has scaled as it has. Some feedback from the staff on the issue would be great but i would be a lot happier to just see it reflected in future test notes.

[LordMoX]

Do you think we will have any answer?

Those updates for next GU are a bad joke, i've never met a pally with power issues (and if we have we can always use a f*cking manalink), but we've been always a good tank choice, now we're becoming good for nothing, we need any change or any player that knows how to play will change class, i don't like to die and have to use rescue+holy ground+ sneering assault to take the mob again, not to talk that he will have a great chance to kill me again thanks to our lack of DI (we have only one and with a high reuse), i don't need to say more, you've already done, but we've said lot of times and every new update is a new joke for us.

[Faildozer]

I think the problem isnt that they dont care it's more of a paladins have been in a good spot for a while and so they have not needed many gradual changes like other classes have gotten. Now all of these other classes are really shining with stoneskins on demand and snap aggro tools and our lack of the aforementioned is really starting to show with some of the new mechanics and encounter designs.

Im not calling for a guardian type overhaul because i dont think it is needed. There are a few easy things to fix that would help level the playing field of paladins and shadowknights as well. Like I said earlier, I can live with a lot of the nonsensical annoyances of some of our abilities if they can just work on fixing the things that will really make a difference in how effective we are at tanking and offtanking.

[Boli32]

#1 Paladin Issue

we die... a lot - too much for our "vaulted role" as a defensive tank.

If the developers want/need parses examples/sugesstions we can give them; but this issues needs to be resolved ASAP or there willl not be any paladins left.

/end issue thread.

[Buzzing]

Boli@Splitpaw wrote:

#1 Paladin Issue

we die... a lot - too much for our "vaulted role" as a defensive tank.

/end issue thread.

+1

[Ufabao]

i think they want all the paladins to betray so they can get rid of the class, that way when the beastlords are added there will be 24 classes and 6 of each archetype, 

its brilliant

[Bruener]

Ufabao wrote:

i think they want all the paladins to betray so they can get rid of the class, that way when the beastlords are added there will be 24 classes and 6 of each archetype, 

its brilliant

Go ahead and betray.

That way you can find the same exact issues only while tanking more sustained damage and having less agro control outside of a "perfect" tank group set up.

Good luck.

[Buzzing]

Bruener wrote:

Ufabao wrote:

i think they want all the paladins to betray so they can get rid of the class, that way when the beastlords are added there will be 24 classes and 6 of each archetype, 

its brilliant

Go ahead and betray.

That way you can find the same exact issues only while tanking more sustained damage and having less agro control outside of a "perfect" tank group set up.

Good luck.

pff at least I could FD scrubs during raid

[Maergoth]

I don't think Bruener has played a paladin. He's suggesting that Shadowknights are almost as bad off. Funny joke sir.

[Bruener]

Maergoth wrote:

I don't think Bruener has played a paladin. He's suggesting that Shadowknights are almost as bad off. Funny joke sir.

I think you don't have a clue on SKs...as pointed out by your own MT.

[Buzzing]

Bruener wrote:

Maergoth wrote:

I don't think Bruener has played a paladin. He's suggesting that Shadowknights are almost as bad off. Funny joke sir.

I think you don't have a clue on SKs...as pointed out by your own MT.

please for all the love of god please tell me you don't actually agree with that guy... He was mental and at least part of the time I can agree with you...

[Bruener]

Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:

Bruener wrote:

Maergoth wrote:

I don't think Bruener has played a paladin. He's suggesting that Shadowknights are almost as bad off. Funny joke sir.

I think you don't have a clue on SKs...as pointed out by your own MT.

please for all the love of god please tell me you don't actually agree with that guy... He was mental and at least part of the time I can agree with you...

Actually I agree with Dark a lot, he actually understands Fighter mechanics unlike 98% of people on these forums.

Yes, I am sorry a 15s Death Immunity on a decent recast is OP'd.  You might as well call it a 100% damage reduction for 15s.  Maybe on a recast of like 12 min.

As he said, and as I have said...yes Paladins need a little something.  Really though it is an all around Crusader problem with how things got rolled out in DoV for us.  I mean look at how garbage of an ability Manawall is....and even though it was pointed out during beta it still rolled out with a useless ability that is supposed to be a survivaiblity boost.

But really you can discover this yourself by easily betraying and than realizing you have the same lack of spike damage tools still compared to Brawlers and Guards.

[Boli32]

Bruener wrote:

Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:

Bruener wrote:

Maergoth wrote:

I don't think Bruener has played a paladin. He's suggesting that Shadowknights are almost as bad off. Funny joke sir.

I think you don't have a clue on SKs...as pointed out by your own MT.

please for all the love of god please tell me you don't actually agree with that guy... He was mental and at least part of the time I can agree with you...

Actually I agree with Dark a lot, he actually understands Fighter mechanics unlike 98% of people on these forums.

Yes, I am sorry a 15s Death Immunity on a decent recast is OP'd.  You might as well call it a 100% damage reduction for 15s.  Maybe on a recast of like 12 min.

As he said, and as I have said...yes Paladins need a little something.  Really though it is an all around Crusader problem with how things got rolled out in DoV for us.  I mean look at how garbage of an ability Manawall is....and even though it was pointed out during beta it still rolled out with a useless ability that is supposed to be a survivaiblity boost.

But really you can discover this yourself by easily betraying and than realizing you have the same lack of spike damage tools still compared to Brawlers and Guards.

Point is imagine playing with the current mechanics without your myth clicky and without your single charge stoneskin and without your ward. The fact we have a 10% DR 10% heal on our myth means nothing when you're being smashed in the face repeatadly for 100%+ of your health.

I know SKs are in the same boat as far as survibility is concerned but in truth you're a lot better off than we are right now.

[Buzzing]

Bruener wrote:

Buzzing@Butcherblock wrote:

Bruener wrote:

Maergoth wrote:

I don't think Bruener has played a paladin. He's suggesting that Shadowknights are almost as bad off. Funny joke sir.

I think you don't have a clue on SKs...as pointed out by your own MT.

please for all the love of god please tell me you don't actually agree with that guy... He was mental and at least part of the time I can agree with you...

Actually I agree with Dark a lot, he actually understands Fighter mechanics unlike 98% of people on these forums.

Yes, I am sorry a 15s Death Immunity on a decent recast is OP'd.  You might as well call it a 100% damage reduction for 15s.  Maybe on a recast of like 12 min.

As he said, and as I have said...yes Paladins need a little something.  Really though it is an all around Crusader problem with how things got rolled out in DoV for us.  I mean look at how garbage of an ability Manawall is....and even though it was pointed out during beta it still rolled out with a useless ability that is supposed to be a survivaiblity boost.

But really you can discover this yourself by easily betraying and than realizing you have the same lack of spike damage tools still compared to Brawlers and Guards.

Actually I even said that we don't need anything that crazy, was just saying that it isn't that overpowered and the only one in game is on a 60 min recast.

And yes Shadowknights need a boost to survivability, but you may want to eat your own words and betray for a few days. I actually have 90 SK on another account (because I am lazy and would rather use my lady's account to power level my alts then spend the time to actually level them)