Sony why are you breaking the EQ2 trade skilling and economy?

Belzeebub2 · 01-09-2011, 03:35 PM

Before I say anything I will admit this is a bit late however the issue has just dawned on me recently.

Since the release of Sentinel's Fate you have added a couple / several things to the game which has completely removed the need to bother crafting items, whether it is for use or to sell.

The first and most obvious thing was the research assistant, and with the most recent alteration, (the one that allows the player to research all his spells from apprentice to master for free) has removed the need to make experts spells and combat arts and it is near impossible to sell spells on the broker.

Secondly, since the release of Battle Grounds, there is no need to buy master crafted armour as you will get enough tokens to buy the gear from the battle grounds merchants, just requires some patience. The same goes for weapon smithing and battle grounds weapons. So that’s 5 trade skill professions rendered completely useless.

The only trade skills which are of any use now are alchemy for poisons, carpenter for furniture, and provisionor for food (but the need for food at the higher levels is minimal).

So now for the issues on the games economy, with the loss of trading on the broker with equipment and spalls/CAs (as small a money sink it was with the broker fees) there is more money in the game. Another thing to break the economy of EQ2 is all the new housing you’re offering players which have no rent. There is a lot of money going into the game, but very little going out. It’s not balanced.

And, no doubt all this is to try and compete with the likes of WoW, which have recently removed the need to keep your characters stocked up on ammo, by simply removing it. So it's probably a matter of time before decide that’s a good idea to do too, even though it is an awful idea, if a player can't do something as simple as make sure they have what they need it’s their own fault.

So Sony, PLEASE STOP THIS AND FIX THE GAME.

Chakos · 01-09-2011, 06:28 PM

Belzeebub2 wrote:

The first and most obvious thing was the research assistant, and with the most recent alteration, (the one that allows the player to research all his spells from apprentice to master for free) has removed the need to make experts spells and combat arts and it is near impossible to sell spells on the broker.

This has done nothing to remove the need to make expert spells / CAs. *Maybe in t3 / t4*, at worst, but if you honestly believe that people are going to upgrade all their skills, or even just their important ones, from apprentice to master from t5+, using just the RA, you are out of your mind.

If you are having trouble selling spells on the broker you may want to check your pricing. Or better, make them on demand rather than ahead of time -- I've never had a lack of customers when advertising these services. Sure, your markup on premade skills tends to be MUCH higher... people are finally wising up to this, and looking for skills made while they wait.

The only time I use the RA is when masters are overpriced for me -- in which case I get experts and begin researching.

greenmantle · 01-09-2011, 07:31 PM

Belzeebub2 wrote:

Secondly, since the release of Battle Grounds, there is no need to buy master crafted armour as you will get enough tokens to buy the gear from the battle grounds merchants, just requires some patience. The same goes for weapon smithing and battle grounds weapons. So that’s 5 trade skill professions rendered completely useless.

~blink~ keep telling people that, as a ranger i love meeting people in BG's that think they can start out in treasured quest gear and be any more than a speed bump.

Mastercrafted/adorned i would think is the starting point for BG's even with that and a few fabled pieces i still go down like a gerbil hit by a truck some times.

NightGod473 · 01-09-2011, 07:56 PM

Belzeebub2 wrote:

The first and most obvious thing was the research assistant, and with the most recent alteration, (the one that allows the player to research all his spells from apprentice to master for free) has removed the need to make experts spells and combat arts and it is near impossible to sell spells on the broker.

Yes, it couldn't possibly be because it's about a year after the expansion was released and the vast majority of players have already gotten all their spells to Expert or higher, making it harder and harder to sell them off, especially pre-made random choices...

Oh, wait, that's exactly what causes it.

Eritius · 01-09-2011, 08:17 PM

Belzeebub2 wrote:

Is pretty much what I saw, I recommend using default color so we can read it without having to select it

Pakhet · 01-09-2011, 09:00 PM

First off, your color was unreadable without highlighting it. SMILEY

Secondly, there is no death to crafters. Look at the TIME it takes to research.

It is half the time of a master, or lets just average it and say 15 days per expert. Each class, lets average again and say they have 25 spells. So that is 375 days to expert your toon, if you wait you are one expac behind. To go to master is twice the amount of time. Obviously my numbers aren't exact, but get my point?

As for no need for MC, hardly. I recently leveled a fresh new toon on a new server. Hit 90 and had no marks, no BG tokens. I got MC gear. Now, granted, people who are leveling alts and have heirloom gear in their banks may not buy MC. But, if you are waiting on a full set of BG tokens for your fresh 90, you are waiting a long time to make your toon even useable. 50-90 tokens for jewelry, 60-110 tokens for armor. 1 token per loss (which is what you will see a lot of if you are eating up a space in treasured gear), 10-20 minutes a match, 1-5 minutes to even get into a match.

Heirloom did hit the crafters a bit, but anyone who wants to wait 1+ years for experts and who knows how long for BG armor / jewelry is not likely to be someone spending hundreds of plat on MC in the first place.

feldon30 · 01-10-2011, 05:42 AM

JoarAddam · 01-10-2011, 11:16 AM

I love the BG statement... just requires some patience...

I BG'd for 6 hours saturday, I love den. Won almost every match. I got one piece of gear for that. In the lowbiest BG's there are (where the number of tokens for a win/loss is the same, but the gear is about 50% cheaper).

I harvested in RoK zones for 3.5 hours last night. I now have enough rares for 1.5-2 alts gear and one, maybe 2 alts spells. Gear I would NEED to be barely competitive in those BG tiers even if i had max AA spent. Unless you're suggesting that someone would actually stay in a tier until they had max BG gear, move to the next tier... until they had enough BG gear...

That sounds like a crazy long row to hoe.

NardacMM · 01-10-2011, 12:13 PM

Just to make sure you're clear. Go into the BG forum and select the "Public Service Announcement: Player-Made BG Armor Exists " thread.

Anybody that starts doing BGs without some player-crafted gear is insane. Excluding lvl 90, Toughness is very important in BGs. I paid 10p in tips alone to have a full set of the 80-89 gear made for two players and I wore that stuff for months before I could upgrade to the fabled gear off merchants when I decided to ding 90.. which raises another point... Those who don't want to level lock at 80-89 (or 30-39, etc) typically save their tokens for the lvl 90 gear.

Regarding the RA, I'd estimate that a very small percentage of people are buying adept, upgrading it to expert, and then upgrading to Master.. That is a waste of time. Most people are still buying experts (I'm a sage, so I also have some experience with this.)

Nrgy · 01-10-2011, 04:20 PM

Belzeebub2 wrote:

The first and most obvious thing was the research assistant, and with the most recent alteration, (the one that allows the player to research all his spells from apprentice to master for free) has removed the need to make experts spells and combat arts and it is near impossible to sell spells on the broker.

This is funny to me in most every way...

Im leveling (2boxing) an Alt who shot up 5 levels last night alone. He shot up 5 levels the night before and 5 more the night before that. Now he's level 50+ and as Im back at the Bank / Broker in the GH im unloading my stash. Saving the Plant Foods and Status items ... Transmutting the treasured gears .. you know the usual.

I then pop over to the broker and I go ahead and buy either the Adept, Journeyman or Expert spell upgrade for EVERYONE of my spells off of the broker. I find myself doing this about every 15 - 20 levels. Hell, I don't even plan to be in that level range by the end of next week, but I'll most likely upgrade my spells again when I get to the next tier and a half or so.

I ALWAYS have something brewing in the RA, but more times then not I get 30% - 40% into the research then switch it to something becasue I have leveled past the effectiveness of that spell/CA. Its nice SOE refunds 33% of the RA time spent if switched to something else.

The funny part is ... My main is a Sage!!!

Seiffil · 01-10-2011, 04:56 PM

First, as others have said, please be careful about what colors you put your text in. It's unreadable on a black background without highlighting it.

1) Research Assistant, meaningless worry. Those who will research from apprentice or adept all the way to master, wouldn't have bought the expert or master from you anyways, so you're not really missing anything there anyways.

2) Not everyone participates in battlegrounds, and while yes the gear is nice, I can also choose to spend much less time and gather up the rares and either have the armor made, or make it myself.

3) Only Alchemists, Carpenters, and Provisioners are worthwhile? Guess you don't use arrows or throwing ammo. All 3 scholars are worthwhile, you just have to be smart about how you do things. You're much better off advertising services then just making the items in advance and trying to sell on the broker. There are also the temporary adornments made by sages and weaponsmiths, which people do still use. So I guess that leaves tailors and armorers as the only completely useless classes? Every class still has usefulness, some just far more then others.

4) Blaming rent free houses as the reason why the economy is the way it is currently is laughable. There's more money in the game just due to how easy it is to gain plat. People run PR with 1 group or less just to get plat. Not to mention the amount of plat you can get just by doing the RoK, TSO, and SF solo questlines. It takes me getting 1 treasured item in T8 or T9 to go sell to a vendor to get 1 week of rent, without even considering the other vendored trash drops

5) Your comment about WoW, and what they've done with regards to ammo. Rangers have been asking for something to be done for ages with regards to ammo consumption. Everytime the tradeskillers come out saying it will kill their ability to be able to make a profit with that class. Nothing has been done about this yet, and I honestly doubt anything will. If they ever decide to do anything, it will probably be class specific, and even then it'll be more likely to be some sort of ammo conservation, rather then completely removing ammo consumption across the board. They haven't even made any items that summon arrows since the two bows from Deathtoll back during KoS.

Tradeskills may not be as strong as they once were, but it is by no means broken and as bleak as you make it out to be.

Xianthia · 01-11-2011, 07:45 PM

Using myself as an example, I "tried" the go from journeyman to master on one of my spells for level 59 wizzy. I've no idea how anyone would ever have that much patience (if you do, more power to you ). Wait 9 days for an adept (maybe was 7), and then another 9-12 for the expert and then 2 weeks for the master... I tried it on one spell and gave up after I got the journeyman. Opted for making the experts and voila I'm omw to master(s) in same time I'd get one master.

That said, I can see using the research assistant for lowbie toons to get them all mastered in very short time.

Most people, I assume, will choose to still get the experts and you still need a sage/alchemist/jeweler for those.

Crismorn · 01-11-2011, 08:07 PM

I got someone to make me 10k lvl 30 arrows a few days ago and I'm down do just under 5k so I'll need some more shortly.

Woodworkers <3 me!

01-09-2011, 03:35 PM	#1
Belzeebub2 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 57	Before I say anything I will admit this is a bit late however the issue has just dawned on me recently. Since the release of Sentinel's Fate you have added a couple / several things to the game which has completely removed the need to bother crafting items, whether it is for use or to sell. The first and most obvious thing was the research assistant, and with the most recent alteration, (the one that allows the player to research all his spells from apprentice to master for free) has removed the need to make experts spells and combat arts and it is near impossible to sell spells on the broker. Secondly, since the release of Battle Grounds, there is no need to buy master crafted armour as you will get enough tokens to buy the gear from the battle grounds merchants, just requires some patience. The same goes for weapon smithing and battle grounds weapons. So that’s 5 trade skill professions rendered completely useless. The only trade skills which are of any use now are alchemy for poisons, carpenter for furniture, and provisionor for food (but the need for food at the higher levels is minimal). So now for the issues on the games economy, with the loss of trading on the broker with equipment and spalls/CAs (as small a money sink it was with the broker fees) there is more money in the game. Another thing to break the economy of EQ2 is all the new housing you’re offering players which have no rent. There is a lot of money going into the game, but very little going out. It’s not balanced. And, no doubt all this is to try and compete with the likes of WoW, which have recently removed the need to keep your characters stocked up on ammo, by simply removing it. So it's probably a matter of time before decide that’s a good idea to do too, even though it is an awful idea, if a player can't do something as simple as make sure they have what they need it’s their own fault. So Sony, PLEASE STOP THIS AND FIX THE GAME. __________________ You want a cure? What's a cure? Who told you inquisitor can cure ?!?

01-09-2011, 06:28 PM	#2
Chakos Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 324	Belzeebub2 wrote: The first and most obvious thing was the research assistant, and with the most recent alteration, (the one that allows the player to research all his spells from apprentice to master for free) has removed the need to make experts spells and combat arts and it is near impossible to sell spells on the broker. This has done nothing to remove the need to make expert spells / CAs. Maybe in t3 / t4, at worst, but if you honestly believe that people are going to upgrade all their skills, or even just their important ones, from apprentice to master from t5+, using just the RA, you are out of your mind. If you are having trouble selling spells on the broker you may want to check your pricing. Or better, make them on demand rather than ahead of time -- I've never had a lack of customers when advertising these services. Sure, your markup on premade skills tends to be MUCH higher... people are finally wising up to this, and looking for skills made while they wait. The only time I use the RA is when masters are overpriced for me -- in which case I get experts and begin researching.

01-09-2011, 07:31 PM	#3
greenmantle Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 769	Belzeebub2 wrote: Secondly, since the release of Battle Grounds, there is no need to buy master crafted armour as you will get enough tokens to buy the gear from the battle grounds merchants, just requires some patience. The same goes for weapon smithing and battle grounds weapons. So that’s 5 trade skill professions rendered completely useless. ~blink~ keep telling people that, as a ranger i love meeting people in BG's that think they can start out in treasured quest gear and be any more than a speed bump. Mastercrafted/adorned i would think is the starting point for BG's even with that and a few fabled pieces i still go down like a gerbil hit by a truck some times.

01-09-2011, 07:56 PM	#4
NightGod473 Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 848	Belzeebub2 wrote: The first and most obvious thing was the research assistant, and with the most recent alteration, (the one that allows the player to research all his spells from apprentice to master for free) has removed the need to make experts spells and combat arts and it is near impossible to sell spells on the broker. Yes, it couldn't possibly be because it's about a year after the expansion was released and the vast majority of players have already gotten all their spells to Expert or higher, making it harder and harder to sell them off, especially pre-made random choices... Oh, wait, that's exactly what causes it. __________________ Fluffy list

01-09-2011, 09:00 PM	#6
Pakhet Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 239	First off, your color was unreadable without highlighting it. Secondly, there is no death to crafters. Look at the TIME it takes to research. It is half the time of a master, or lets just average it and say 15 days per expert. Each class, lets average again and say they have 25 spells. So that is 375 days to expert your toon, if you wait you are one expac behind. To go to master is twice the amount of time. Obviously my numbers aren't exact, but get my point? As for no need for MC, hardly. I recently leveled a fresh new toon on a new server. Hit 90 and had no marks, no BG tokens. I got MC gear. Now, granted, people who are leveling alts and have heirloom gear in their banks may not buy MC. But, if you are waiting on a full set of BG tokens for your fresh 90, you are waiting a long time to make your toon even useable. 50-90 tokens for jewelry, 60-110 tokens for armor. 1 token per loss (which is what you will see a lot of if you are eating up a space in treasured gear), 10-20 minutes a match, 1-5 minutes to even get into a match. Heirloom did hit the crafters a bit, but anyone who wants to wait 1+ years for experts and who knows how long for BG armor / jewelry is not likely to be someone spending hundreds of plat on MC in the first place.

01-09-2011, 08:17 PM	#5
Eritius Server: Lucan DLere Guild: Fate by Blood Rank: Commander Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 759	Belzeebub2 wrote: Is pretty much what I saw, I recommend using default color so we can read it without having to select it

01-10-2011, 05:42 AM	#7
feldon30 Fansite Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 5,424	__________________ .. EQ2Wire.com \| EQ2U - Character, Item, Spell, and Guild Data

01-10-2011, 11:16 AM	#8
JoarAddam Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,239	I love the BG statement... just requires some patience... I BG'd for 6 hours saturday, I love den. Won almost every match. I got one piece of gear for that. In the lowbiest BG's there are (where the number of tokens for a win/loss is the same, but the gear is about 50% cheaper). I harvested in RoK zones for 3.5 hours last night. I now have enough rares for 1.5-2 alts gear and one, maybe 2 alts spells. Gear I would NEED to be barely competitive in those BG tiers even if i had max AA spent. Unless you're suggesting that someone would actually stay in a tier until they had max BG gear, move to the next tier... until they had enough BG gear... That sounds like a crazy long row to hoe. __________________ Then Than You're Your They're There Their

01-10-2011, 12:13 PM	#9
NardacMM Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 319	Just to make sure you're clear. Go into the BG forum and select the "Public Service Announcement: Player-Made BG Armor Exists " thread. Anybody that starts doing BGs without some player-crafted gear is insane. Excluding lvl 90, Toughness is very important in BGs. I paid 10p in tips alone to have a full set of the 80-89 gear made for two players and I wore that stuff for months before I could upgrade to the fabled gear off merchants when I decided to ding 90.. which raises another point... Those who don't want to level lock at 80-89 (or 30-39, etc) typically save their tokens for the lvl 90 gear. Regarding the RA, I'd estimate that a very small percentage of people are buying adept, upgrading it to expert, and then upgrading to Master.. That is a waste of time. Most people are still buying experts (I'm a sage, so I also have some experience with this.) __________________

01-10-2011, 04:20 PM	#10
Nrgy Lord Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 1,338	Belzeebub2 wrote: The first and most obvious thing was the research assistant, and with the most recent alteration, (the one that allows the player to research all his spells from apprentice to master for free) has removed the need to make experts spells and combat arts and it is near impossible to sell spells on the broker. This is funny to me in most every way... Im leveling (2boxing) an Alt who shot up 5 levels last night alone. He shot up 5 levels the night before and 5 more the night before that. Now he's level 50+ and as Im back at the Bank / Broker in the GH im unloading my stash. Saving the Plant Foods and Status items ... Transmutting the treasured gears .. you know the usual. I then pop over to the broker and I go ahead and buy either the Adept, Journeyman or Expert spell upgrade for EVERYONE of my spells off of the broker. I find myself doing this about every 15 - 20 levels. Hell, I don't even plan to be in that level range by the end of next week, but I'll most likely upgrade my spells again when I get to the next tier and a half or so. I ALWAYS have something brewing in the RA, but more times then not I get 30% - 40% into the research then switch it to something becasue I have leveled past the effectiveness of that spell/CA. Its nice SOE refunds 33% of the RA time spent if switched to something else. The funny part is ... My main is a Sage!!!

01-10-2011, 04:56 PM	#11
Seiffil Server: Permafrost Guild: Grievance Rank: Raider Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 854	First, as others have said, please be careful about what colors you put your text in. It's unreadable on a black background without highlighting it. 1) Research Assistant, meaningless worry. Those who will research from apprentice or adept all the way to master, wouldn't have bought the expert or master from you anyways, so you're not really missing anything there anyways. 2) Not everyone participates in battlegrounds, and while yes the gear is nice, I can also choose to spend much less time and gather up the rares and either have the armor made, or make it myself. 3) Only Alchemists, Carpenters, and Provisioners are worthwhile? Guess you don't use arrows or throwing ammo. All 3 scholars are worthwhile, you just have to be smart about how you do things. You're much better off advertising services then just making the items in advance and trying to sell on the broker. There are also the temporary adornments made by sages and weaponsmiths, which people do still use. So I guess that leaves tailors and armorers as the only completely useless classes? Every class still has usefulness, some just far more then others. 4) Blaming rent free houses as the reason why the economy is the way it is currently is laughable. There's more money in the game just due to how easy it is to gain plat. People run PR with 1 group or less just to get plat. Not to mention the amount of plat you can get just by doing the RoK, TSO, and SF solo questlines. It takes me getting 1 treasured item in T8 or T9 to go sell to a vendor to get 1 week of rent, without even considering the other vendored trash drops 5) Your comment about WoW, and what they've done with regards to ammo. Rangers have been asking for something to be done for ages with regards to ammo consumption. Everytime the tradeskillers come out saying it will kill their ability to be able to make a profit with that class. Nothing has been done about this yet, and I honestly doubt anything will. If they ever decide to do anything, it will probably be class specific, and even then it'll be more likely to be some sort of ammo conservation, rather then completely removing ammo consumption across the board. They haven't even made any items that summon arrows since the two bows from Deathtoll back during KoS. Tradeskills may not be as strong as they once were, but it is by no means broken and as bleak as you make it out to be.

01-11-2011, 07:45 PM	#12
Xianthia Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 545	Using myself as an example, I "tried" the go from journeyman to master on one of my spells for level 59 wizzy. I've no idea how anyone would ever have that much patience (if you do, more power to you ). Wait 9 days for an adept (maybe was 7), and then another 9-12 for the expert and then 2 weeks for the master... I tried it on one spell and gave up after I got the journeyman. Opted for making the experts and voila I'm omw to master(s) in same time I'd get one master. That said, I can see using the research assistant for lowbie toons to get them all mastered in very short time. Most people, I assume, will choose to still get the experts and you still need a sage/alchemist/jeweler for those.

01-11-2011, 08:07 PM	#13
Crismorn Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Location: Vancouver Posts: 2,840	I got someone to make me 10k lvl 30 arrows a few days ago and I'm down do just under 5k so I'll need some more shortly. Woodworkers <3 me!