Adornments to change level...

[Vuethon]

Does anyone else agree that on say a level 80 item we should be able to put a level 88 adornment on and it will increase the required level for the armour to 88?

It seems stupid to have MC every 10 levels that have a unit of 2 (2, 12, 22 etc.) yet we can't even equip the best adornments available in that tier because the armour is level 32 and the adornment is level 38...

Also, the same applies to BG armour - it's all level 30 and I can't pop some Ability Mod +12 on any of my items, because it's all T4 armour but the adornments selection can only be found within T3.

Either adorns need to all go down to level 10, 20, 30 etc. instead of armour levelling up, but yeah, that's the jist of what I'm saying. Would like other's input please!!!

[Darkor]

Vuethon@Runnyeye wrote:

Does anyone else agree that on say a level 80 item we should be able to put a level 88 adornment on and it will increase the required level for the armour to 88?

It seems stupid to have MC every 10 levels that have a unit of 2 (2, 12, 22 etc.) yet we can't even equip the best adornments available in that tier because the armour is level 32 and the adornment is level 38...

Also, the same applies to BG armour - it's all level 30 and I can't pop some Ability Mod +12 on any of my items, because it's all T4 armour but the adornments selection can only be found within T3.

Either adorns need to all go down to level 10, 20, 30 etc. instead of armour levelling up, but yeah, that's the jist of what I'm saying. Would like other's input please!!!

This is actually a very nice idea. That system is in the game allready in a certain way. If you put a red class adornment on an armor piece, the piece will be restricted to the class allready. Same could be done to the minimum level.

[Dorsan]

Wow this is actually a very nice idea. I rarely read good ideas on this forum, but this is most certainly a good idea. I am using some T5 gear on my 90 necro for aggro reduction and it would be nice to put T9 adorns on it. If my toon is 90 then I should be able to put T9 adorns on every piece of gear I wear.

[Seiffil]

Vuethon@Runnyeye wrote:

It seems stupid to have MC every 10 levels that have a unit of 2 (2, 12, 22 etc.) yet we can't even equip the best adornments available in that tier because the armour is level 32 and the adornment is level 38...

Either adorns need to all go down to level 10, 20, 30 etc. instead of armour levelling up, but yeah, that's the jist of what I'm saying. Would like other's input please!!!

Its not stupid at all, just like you have to be a certain level to wear different gear, your gear has to meet certain requirements before it can get an adornment. 

I definitely wouldn't say to make all the adornments available at level x0.  However, they should make the lesser adornments available at x0, however greater and superior should continue to be higher in level then the lowest level in a tier.  Your gear is meant to get more powerful as you improve, which also includes the available adornments that you can attach to your gear.  This is not only with regards to gear as you change tiers, but the gear as you improve within the same tier.

[Gisallo]

Nope don't agree. Sorry but your idea doesn't make sense. Greater and superior adornments are supposed to be for the best gear u can get in that particular tier. While I know some people see it as evil power gaming or it doesn't support our play style etc the purpose of 82 MC gear is to enable u to get the better instance and raid gear. It is this gear the 88 and 90 adornments are for. My suggestion is adorn with tier 8. The superior for t8 is better than the greater of t9 and its very easy to farm t8 for adornment components and they are pretty cheap on the broker as well. I know its not what u wanted to hear, but to be honest if you are not raiding or doing the hardest instances the greater and superior adornments aren't going to make a difference anyway. Putting a superior adornment on lvl x2 gear is like putting a supercharger on a ford focus. The focus is a good car and gets the job done but the super charger doesn't make the focus any better at its designed purpose.

[Finora]

I personally think the current adornment system is ....annoying.

IMO the adornment equip level should go by the PLAYERS level, not the gear's. If someone really wants to put t9 adornment on some t3 gear, it's their money to blow, let them do it, as long as the player is of a level to use the adornment. Allowing someone who's level 90 with some MC gear to put some of the higher level adornments on their gear isn't going to kill anyone or hurt anyone's gameplay or destroy balance.

Note I am not saying people should be able to equip yellow/red adornments on MC. Those require the slots, which are found on their certain items and that is perfectly acceptable. I'm just talking about the regular old run of the mill white adornments.

[Xalmat]

You should think of it this way.

The higher level adornments are too powerful for the lower level gear, and will cause them to self destruct. Therefore they are prevented from being placed on lower level gear to keep that from happening.

It also encourages you to find higher level replacement gear if you want to use the higher end adornments.

[Gisallo]

That makes even less sense and is not only clearly aan end around (no lvl 90 in their right mind is putting a 33 plat adornment on lvl 30 gear) but it would also be a pita to code. Right now adornments follow the exact same logic as other gear, the lvl of the adornment is compared to what it is put on. The other thing that would be a pita to code would be exploitation. I can see it now, going into lvl 40 bg and seeing the twink with t9 adornments on. There would be a way to do it, I can think of it right now. There are FAR better things to code for. Again, the ONLY adornmnt in t9 better than the t8 superior is the t9 superior. For that u should have 90 gear period. Ergo no need for a change.

[Aoez]

the need to make adornments in line with each tier * keep it the same as MC Armorer weapons and jewelry. I think all adornments should be in line with there proper tier. Meaing t4 = lvl 32 MC can only use T4 Adornemts. Common adorments can be used at lvl 30. But MC and Lend and Fabled adorments would require lvl 32 MC armorer or better to use.

[Gisallo]

Why do they have too. Adornments are set up to scale so that the best adornment go on the best gear of that tier. Making an adornment designed with lvl 90 gear in mind makes no sense on lvl 82 gear. If u were asking for more adronements at different levels I could almost agree (I think it would be silly to have a lvl 82 adornment go up a whole 2 pts at level 85 though). How then do you propose have an item balanced to go on lvl 90 gear to remain balanced on lvl 82 gear?

[Dorsan]

The current adornment system is far more exploitable than the one that would allow you to put high level adorn on low level gear with setting the gear level to that of the adorn. You can get high level tradeskill items and place high level adorn on them and then wear them on lowbie alt already. Heck I remember in T2 I was wearing the appron of the artificier with T7 adorns on it. For me it makes perfect sense to put a level 90 adorn on a lvl 30 gear piece and make it wearable by a level 90 adventurer only. A system like that would even disable the adorned tradeskill item "exploit".

[Finora]

I personally don't even care as my current play level I have little use for adornments anyway. And I wouldn't personally waste the money to adorn something low level with a high level.

I just think the current adornment set up is less sensible than it could have been. They are in a way using adornments to force people to upgrade their gear when it should be the gear itself that makes you want to upgrade, not some frill you can add to it later (though in the case of the raid adornments, that certainly is a plus).

[Gisallo]

Finora@Everfrost wrote:

I personally don't even care as my current play level I have little use for adornments anyway. And I wouldn't personally waste the money to adorn something low level with a high level.

I just think the current adornment set up is less sensible than it could have been. They are in a way using adornments to force people to upgrade their gear when it should be the gear itself that makes you want to upgrade, not some frill you can add to it later (though in the case of the raid adornments, that certainly is a plus).

Oh don't be obtuse. The point of adornments used to JUST be about raiding. The number of non-raiders who wanted them was almost zero because of their expense. Now that they are becoming cheaper (A LOT cheaper), they are now on non-raider ad non-crafters radars and now everybody wants them. Due u really think the fact mc gear was mentioned was just because its a low level? No it wasn't. There are a slew of people, soloers, duoers etc who wear mc gear in many slots through out an expansion. Now they can afford them and suddenlly after 5 years the mechanic is an issueM. This is called a straw man argument. Now u can afford them so now u want them just be honest about it for goodness sakes. PS not focused at u so much, but that is really the overall feel I am getting here, basically "I want the bst adornment in the game but not have to get the lvl 90 fabled gear it was designed for". Pigeon pellets

[Vuethon]

Galibier@Lucan DLere wrote:

Nope don't agree. Sorry but your idea doesn't make sense. Greater and superior adornments are supposed to be for the best gear u can get in that particular tier. While I know some people see it as evil power gaming or it doesn't support our play style etc the purpose of 82 MC gear is to enable u to get the better instance and raid gear. It is this gear the 88 and 90 adornments are for. My suggestion is adorn with tier 8. The superior for t8 is better than the greater of t9 and its very easy to farm t8 for adornment components and they are pretty cheap on the broker as well. I know its not what u wanted to hear, but to be honest if you are not raiding or doing the hardest instances the greater and superior adornments aren't going to make a difference anyway. Putting a superior adornment on lvl x2 gear is like putting a supercharger on a ford focus. The focus is a good car and gets the job done but the super charger doesn't make the focus any better at its designed purpose.

The way you put your arguement against is actually agreeing with what I said.

Yes, within T4, you should have to progress through it to get the better adorns, but that shouldn't be restricted on your gears level surely? I mean, if you were to get gear at level 39 to support a level 38 adornment, it probably wouldn't be as good as the money you invested in MC or even time you put into getting BG armour...

So my theory is that we should be able to adorn any gear with any adorn, because if I want to run around in blackened iron with t9 adorns on at level 90, I will, but I don't expect to be able to throw level 88 adorns on level 12 items and still have it level 12.

Hopefully that clears up the concept I'm trying to achieve.

[Vuethon]

Galibier@Lucan DLere wrote:

PS not focused at u so much, but that is really the overall feel I am getting here, basically "I want the bst adornment in the game but not have to get the lvl 90 fabled gear it was designed for". Pigeon pellets

Actually, no... I want level 30 fabled gear to be able to use level 38 adornments and increase the armour level to 38, since my toon is 39. What I want has nothing to do with raiding, unless you consider BG's raiding. I could go on also about PvP getting other adorn slots in their gear, but I won't, because that's a different arguement and I can see both sides.

The fact is, this current adornment system has a fundamental flaw, and that is it isn't helping progression in the way it currently should.

Also, with regards to your affordability theory... if your theory is correct, then prices of adornments will go up. Why? More demand. Why? Because:

Toon gets level 32, gets level 32 MC, adorns with level 32 adorns. Toon then gets level 38 (not immediately, ofcourse), and puts level 38 adorns in the 32MC, making it pseudo-38 MC. Toon hits 42, he might see that level 38 adorns are better than level 42 lesser adorns, so puts those in another set of armour.

Also, people who level lock their toons at 39/49/59 and so on for BG purposes will want to be able to use level 38 adorns on their MC/BG armour... because when they do a search for adorns, and it comes up with all white adorns, and those included are level 38, they will buy it and then try to adorn and realise they can't use it. IF your level 38 adorns can't be used in your level 30 armour, the adorn should be red unless you have qualifying itemary equipped...

[Seiffil]

Vuethon@Runnyeye wrote:

Galibier@Lucan DLere wrote:

PS not focused at u so much, but that is really the overall feel I am getting here, basically "I want the bst adornment in the game but not have to get the lvl 90 fabled gear it was designed for". Pigeon pellets

Actually, no... I want level 30 fabled gear to be able to use level 38 adornments and increase the armour level to 38, since my toon is 39. What I want has nothing to do with raiding, unless you consider BG's raiding. I could go on also about PvP getting other adorn slots in their gear, but I won't, because that's a different arguement and I can see both sides.

The fact is, this current adornment system has a fundamental flaw, and that is it isn't helping progression in the way it currently should.

I wonder if you even know what you're asking for when saying how you want it to work.  In order to put a level 38 adornment on your gear, your gear has to increase to level 38 or 39.  When this happens, your gear isn't going to increase in stats at all, aside from the adornment cause the base item was level 30.  So now when your character gets mentored as you enter the BGs, you lose some of the base stats from your armor, which would include toughness, hp, mitigation, just so you could gain a tiny bit of ability mod or hp from adornments, which are also going to have their effectiveness lowered because they get lowered to level 30 when you mentor.

The current system for adornments is fine. The system is such that the gear must be advanced enough to contain an adornment.  So why should something that is level 30, be able to contain something that it isn't high enough in level contain?  Its not about the character, its about the gear being able to hold it. 

I'd be all for them changing the system so that all lesser adornments are at the x0 (30, 40, 50, etc) for each level range.  And then greater adornments at either x4 or x5 levels and the superior adornments available at x8 or x9 levels within each tier.  However, they do need to continue to keep it so that as you're leveling you need to improve your gear to be able to improve on the adornments available to that item.

[Jaremai]

I'd be happy if all adornments of a tier were x0.  The material requirements are expensive enough that if someone wants to put a T6 Superior on their lv 50 Handcrafted, and then make another Superior when they upgrade to lv 52 MC, and then another Superior when they get something better.. let them.

If they added the LDoN birdbaths to remove adornments from equipment then maybe level restrictions would make more sense, but really since there isn't THAT much stat difference between adornments from one tier to the next, some consistency would be nice from a tradeskill perspective - i.e. you can use the best of that tier by x2 at the most.

[Dorsan]

Honestly the adornment system is fubared as it is. When you look at Distilled Mana it says it is usable to craft items level 80-89 and yet the adornments created by it are level 90. It makes zero sense.

[Seiffil]

Dorsan@Nagafen wrote:

Honestly the adornment system is fubared as it is. When you look at Distilled Mana it says it is usable to craft items level 80-89 and yet the adornments created by it are level 90. It makes zero sense.

It's in the level range, just easier to put that generic tag on all items used for tradeskills within a given tier, then to identify if the items made from that component are only of one particular level.  You could say the same thing for the dust alchemists use to craft MC potions and poisons, since they're always level x2, at least until you get to the special recipes from RoK, TSO, and SF.

[Gisallo]

Yeah last year no one not raiding could care less. Now suddenly they can fford them and they are looking for any little bit of minutia to try and justify a change when the real motive is simply "I can afford the adornment now so I want to wear it regardless of what it is actually intended for." Regardless of the BS rationalizations given in the face of the fact that the prior tier's superior is better than any adornment of the next tier with the exception of the x8 superior and this isn't acceptable proves it. The purpose of an x8 superior adornment is NOT to go on any item from that tier. It is for the END Game gear of that tier hence it is x8. Its pretty simple to understand, literacy is our friend. All adornments have always worked this way and to say "then make them red" is yet another nit pick to obfuscate the weakness of the argument. I would be far less annoyed if people were just straight up about their motive for the change, but this bad defense lawyer tactic of trying to obfuscate the motive with irrelevant minutia is just grating on my admittedly overly logical sensibilities.

[Seiffil]

Galibier@Lucan DLere wrote:

Yeah last year no one not raiding could care less. Now suddenly they can fford them and they are looking for any little bit of minutia to try and justify a change when the real motive is simply "I can afford the adornment now so I want to wear it regardless of what it is actually intended for." Regardless of the BS rationalizations given in the face of the fact that the prior tier's superior is better than any adornment of the next tier with the exception of the x8 superior and this isn't acceptable proves it. The purpose of an x8 superior adornment is NOT to go on any item from that tier. It is for the END Game gear of that tier hence it is x8. Its pretty simple to understand, literacy is our friend. All adornments have always worked this way and to say "then make them red" is yet another nit pick to obfuscate the weakness of the argument. I would be far less annoyed if people were just straight up about their motive for the change, but this bad defense lawyer tactic of trying to obfuscate the motive with irrelevant minutia is just grating on my admittedly overly logical sensibilities.

The real motive is honestly those who truly want this change are the ones who are level locking in BGs or for PVP. BG gear is the only gear the doesn't fit the mold as in the best gear for any given tier is at the lowest level for that tier, since BG gear will have the most toughness available and they don't want the toughness/stats by the character being mentoring down upon entering BGs. I don't believe that exception is enough to change how adornments fit on gear. The only reason this is issue for the OP is I'm guessing they don't have any ability mod adornments in T3 that they can put on their level 30 BG armor.

[TalisX1]

My question is: What would it hurt to have the items required level raised to the adornment level? If you want to wear a piece of t4mc at 90 with a 88 adornment I don't see what this would hurt as long as the t4mc now requires level 88 to equip.

Silat

[Dorsan]

Galibier@Lucan DLere wrote:

Yeah last year no one not raiding could care less. Now suddenly they can fford them and they are looking for any little bit of minutia to try and justify a change when the real motive is simply "I can afford the adornment now so I want to wear it regardless of what it is actually intended for." 

Dude you keep repeating this, but this has no base in reality. I had the best adornments on my MC gear all the way as I was leveling, and then I spend whole TSO without raiding and still I had all the best adorns I could get. I don't know why you have the weird idea that adornments are for raiders or that white adornments have anything to do with raid gear whatsoever.

In the very similar fashion I can say that only people who PvP use  totems, so in my opinion blue servers shouldn't have access to any totems in the game. See how stupid it sounds?

[Gisallo]

Yes it would. The ONLY tier this issue applies to are people level locked @ t3, that is it. U are in essence asking for a system that is balanced for every single other tier to be changed for one tier. Sorry but I do not think that because a minority of players level lock at t3 is an excuse to change either the adornment mechanic or gear mechanic. This would require a retooling and rebalancing of every other tier up to tier 9. The superior adornments have fabled gear, that can bought with tokens that is what the adornments are designed for. 88 adorn for 90 token gear, 78 adorn for 80 token gear etc. It only breaks down, sorta at t3. Sorry but I am just tired of a person with some "preferred" play style asking for changes to the entire game just to serve their desire. When u do this all it does is create a cycle that doesn't end. Soloers complained that some overland zones were too hard. They nerfed the stuffing out of overland zones so that they and the questlines are mind numbingly boring and grouping was discouraged outside of instancing. Not enough though, now some are asking for the overland zone mobs to not be contested because they don't want to compete with other players. Instances are nerfed so that maybe 2-3 per expac are a genuine challenge. Not enough though, all zones should be doable by people regardless of gear, spell level, group make up or player skill. Easymode raiding is introduced and people now just want the gear on a vendor because even em is too much effort. Now for one tier that a minority of people participate in, we should change a mechanic that that applies not to one tier but ALL tiers? Sorry but no. There is always going to be a "no" somewhere in these games and when a mechanic is an inconvenience for one tier it doesn't justify a game wide change imho. Since everyone who locks in t3 is in a similar situation things are balanced in that tier. Again without recent changes which have cause adornment component prices to drop, this would not be an issue. Now it I? Only if u are saying "I want a shiney" cause its not like the other guy in front of u has it.

[Gisallo]

Read evrything I said Dorsan in context, I said adornments are for raiders and. die hard instancers. PvP would of course also apply but in PvP server PvP u have gear at a larger spread. This is focused on BG cause the gear is only at the zeroes. I get that. See my post above as to why one tier doesn't justify a change to 6 tiers of balanced mechanic. in addition while BG is part of the game, I like it and have a level locked brigand in t5 for BGs I think it insane to expect that 90% of the game be changed because of an issue that only exists in BG.

[Dorsan]

Yeah, but what you don't seem to get is that a change like this would not unbalance anything. Whoever groups/raids in low level gear will not suddenly become OP just because he have put a high level adornment on his lowbie gear. He will be at a disadvantage. However there are certain situational items that don't have replacement in end tier gear, and it would be nice if you could at least improve them a bit by applying the maximum tier adornment on those pieces. (like the -hate gain adornments for pieces that have deaggro procs for necro tank pet soloing build)

[Vuethon]

Seiffil@Permafrost wrote:

I wonder if you even know what you're asking for when saying how you want it to work.

I knew what I was asking for at the time of posting, that's why I said either make us able to adorn level 30 with 38 adorns or make all adorns x0...

And please, adorns were never MEANT for raiders, Dorsan. They were intended for the player base, otherwise only raid gear would have had adornment slots. Now, there are adorns intended for raiders... But it just happened to be that the only people who could afford adornments at first were raiders... because ANY new feature that's available on the broker will be more expensive at first due to supply vs. demand.

[Gisallo]

Reading is fundamental. Adorns only made a difference in raiding and usually only raiders could afford them. No one that can tell ever said "adornments are only to be used by raiders." Again though this issue ONLY applies to lvl 30, period. Once in t4 the t3 superior adorn is better than the t4 greater. This continues to end game. The point of the x8 adorn and it being "superior" is that it I to be put on the best gear of that level. Yes it means level 30 bg crafted gear suffers but the x8 adorn is made to be put on the best gear so you are asking that the adornment mechanic be changed because of one tier. Sorry I don't think the minority of people that level lock at t3 is worth the effort of recoding a game wide mechanic.

[Dorsan]

This is not about level locking at all. I would like to make a T5 piece level 90 only by putting a level 90 superior adorn on it for my tank pet build. It has a very powerful deaggro proc that makes soloing on a necro way easier and for the purpose that T5 piece is superior to the level 90 raid gear. Since I am at level 90, and since there are no level 90 comparable items, I would really like to be able to make that T5 piece as good as possible and then wearable by my level 90 toon. What I do not understand is, how would this change hurt raiders or anyone?

[Gisallo]

It would not hurt raiders, stop being myopic. The only reason I mentioned raiders was to illustrate that before the recent rule changes raiders and hard core instance junkie could afford them, now they are on the radar due to their price. Ultimately I see gear lvl the same as adventure lvl. You want a lvl 90 spell get to lvl 90. Want a lvl 90 adornment get lvl 90 gear. This is for a host of reasons. First to force you to get the better gear. There are still items from prior tiers that are best in slot short of end game t3/4 stuff. There is NO WAY in heck t5 gear should be seen as viable in t9, the manner u are asking for would invalidate a host of mechanics, contested mitigation etc because I am sure u would not want a piece of gear 4 tiers behind when it comes to damage mit. Basically you want tier 5 gear to become t9 in all respects because sorry a deaggro proc alone isn't worth it. Answer is NO. There are lots of interesting gear effects from prior tiers that no longer exist. Why? Because they decided they should not be advanced. This was done to get them out of the game. If they wanted u to have that proc at tier 9 it would be on t9 gear. At least the t3 peeps had a half logical concern. You are basically looking for SOE to code an exploit into the game.