Thanks for the changes to Evade...

[whytakemine]

I know it was a bug, but thanks for making Evade useful for a while.  It was great to have an active role in my own aggro management, and to be able to group with tanks who had less gear/aa's and still be able to dps and have a good time.  I even started PUG'ing again.

Alas, that's now over, but thanks for "fixing" Evade and making it useless again too.  I can take it back off my hotbar, and start cybering with my fellow dps when in sub-par groups.  Heck, maybe I'll fill that empty spot on my hotbar with /lon and finally learn how to play it.  

Seriously, why did Evade go from useless to overpowered back to useless?  Couldn't there be some kind of middle ground?  Not just evade, but all dps classes should get some way to play an active and effective role in managing their aggro.  The key is making it scale so whether you do 20k dps or 50k dps, it will still be effective for you.  Off the top of my head I can think of a few options:

- A 10s buff that decreases your aggro by 50%

- A 10s buff that on every attack has a 15% chance to proc a 1 threat position deaggro

- A 3s buff that transfers 45% of your hate to your target, which is above and beyond the 50% cap (this one's more ranger specific)

- Make adornments swappable.  I would buy the adorns that help to control hate if I could choose when to use them, but I'm not going to [Removed for Content] my dps for all fights though just so I can still dps in PUG's.  I'll just go back to only grouping with tanks I know.

This whole time evade was bugged, I still almost never used it in groups or raids where the tank was solid and/or group setup was good.  Sure, it made memwipe fights easier, but other than that it had almost no effect on my gameplay.  All it did was allow me to still have fun while grouped with new or poorly geared tanks.  Why is that a bad thing?

[Jonjacob]

I have to agree with you. I found the game much more fun being able to control my agro to some extent. Even with 500k deagros I was still pulling agro if I was not careful. But detaunts now are completly useless. Think about this... Evade detaunts for 5k every 10 seconds and takes .5 seconds to cast. So while I am doing 30kdps it will lower my agro 5k / (10s*30kdps) = 1.6 precent. I mean 5k is less then one auto-attack hit. I love some of these Ideas. How about a small revamp for all deagro spells. The small number thing does not work. Even using the programming code from bards RO AA spell could be used to make decent deagro spells where it looks at your DPS for 10 seconds and bases your deagro off of that.

[Banditman]

whytakemine wrote:

Not just evade, but all dps classes should get some way to play an active and effective role in managing their aggro.

While I agree that the "de-aggros" are currently a mess and pretty much worthless, every DPS class already plays an "active and effective role in managing their aggro".  If your aggro gets too high STOP DOING DAMAGE.  You have the tools in place to see exactly where you are, pay attention, don't just mindlessly spam your chains.

[Striikor]

I did not like the incredible bouncing that could occur. Agrro at 1 then bang aggro at 100 then bang aggro at 2. I actually think it is an improvement. Last nights raid aggro was much more a predictable incremental decremental thing. Not the huge unexpected jumps.

Managing aggro measures your ability as a DPS'r to be aware and control what you are doing.

And it challenges the Tanks ability to be aware and control the mob.

Changing it or giving it an easy mode button WILL NOT improve game play. (Though some tank classes have inferior aggro control which should be addressed by aggro control snaps not DPS increases)

If you don't want to stay aware, be involved and be able to affect the outcome of an encounter taking in to account other members of your group.... there are a lot of FPS games out there :-0 Just sayin'

P.S. I did not feel this so strongly before the aggro meter. No you have the tool to manage and be aware of your aggro, use it. 

[Aule]

It wasn't bouncing between 1 to 100 to 2, it was bouncing from 1, to negative (which displays as 99), to 2.

[Maamadex]

Managing aggro is all well and good, and people should do it. It still doesn't change the fact that evade is a pointless spell and should be altered in some way.

[Seiffil]

Managing aggro is all fine and dandy.  When it takes 2 - 3 attacks to go up to the top of the hate list and you have no tools to significantly lower your hate there's a problem.

Experience groups, it's pretty much stating that there must be some form of aggro transfer, or hate increase from coercer or dirge, or the dps ends up tanking.

No one is stating that the deaggro needs to be at 300-500k that was definitely too high.  However you can't say that having 2 deaggro's that hit for 5k is enough when on a ranger at least, you can be auto attacking for 40-50k+ and then you get to add in your CA and proc damage.  Not attacking could be valid...but the amount of time it took hate to drop to a reasonable level was painfully slow.

There needs to be a way to actively manage aggro.  I'm not talking about changing things to where they were prior to the fix where you could pretty much go full dps burn and never be worried about pulling aggro, but the aggro management abilities have to have the ability to make a difference.

The numbers on evade and other detaunt abilities were probably fine for how damage was during RoK and TSO, but in SF where you have people parsing significantly higher, 5k evades, stalks, and 2k ignorant bliss procs are about as effective as trying to stop a bus from running you over with your hands.

[EQPrime]

The poor predators have things so difficult.  Evade is uselss and I agree it should be beefed up, but rogues were able to survive in SF without 500k+ deaggros.

[Banditman]

Seiffil@Permafrost wrote:

Managing aggro is all fine and dandy.  When it takes 2 - 3 attacks to go up to the top of the hate list and you have no tools to significantly lower your hate there's a problem.

You do have a tool, it's called a brain.  I make sure I equip mine when I log in.  Seems to work pretty well.

Experience groups, it's pretty much stating that there must be some form of aggro transfer, or hate increase from coercer or dirge, or the dps ends up tanking.

Or a talented Fighter.  That always works.  And DPS with their brains equipped.

No one is stating that the deaggro needs to be at 300-500k that was definitely too high.  However you can't say that having 2 deaggro's that hit for 5k is enough when on a ranger at least, you can be auto attacking for 40-50k+ and then you get to add in your CA and proc damage.  Not attacking could be valid...but the amount of time it took hate to drop to a reasonable level was painfully slow.

I agree, the de-aggro is too low.  It needs to scale with damage, which it has not done, at all.  However, waiting for hate to drop is not just a function of the player who has too much, but of the player who *should* have the most.  Once again, there are eleventy bajillion Fighters out there, about 1% of them know what they are doing.  Sadly.

There needs to be a way to actively manage aggro.  I'm not talking about changing things to where they were prior to the fix where you could pretty much go full dps burn and never be worried about pulling aggro, but the aggro management abilities have to have the ability to make a difference.

Aggro is just as much a task for the Fighter as it is for you, and vice versa.  You're approaching the problem from the wrong direction with this line of thinking.

The numbers on evade and other detaunt abilities were probably fine for how damage was during RoK and TSO, but in SF where you have people parsing significantly higher, 5k evades, stalks, and 2k ignorant bliss procs are about as effective as trying to stop a bus from running you over with your hands.

Here is your real problem right here.  De-aggro has not at all kept up with what it once was.  In the world of potency, multi attack and crit bonus, the numbers are just flat out wrong.  They need to be big enough that using them as part of a regular rotation will have have an overall effect on aggro.  They should not become "snaps" or "reverse rescue" type abilities.  They should however serve to keep the overall level of threat generation lower when used regularly.

[snowli]

Banditman wrote:

whytakemine wrote:

Not just evade, but all dps classes should get some way to play an active and effective role in managing their aggro.

While I agree that the "de-aggros" are currently a mess and pretty much worthless, every DPS class already plays an "active and effective role in managing their aggro".  If your aggro gets too high STOP DOING DAMAGE.  You have the tools in place to see exactly where you are, pay attention, don't just mindlessly spam your chains.

Unless you are a conjy or necro, in which case you have no idea at all what hate your pet has currently I believe.

[whytakemine]

Wow Banditman, you go from completely missing the point to agreeing with us.  You seem to be confusing two things:

1.  People not managing their hate and pulling aggro.

2.  Having tools to manage your hate that are effective.

I don't think anyone here, and certainly not me, is having any problems watching the hate meter and not over aggroing.  What I am asking for is a way to play an active role in controlling my hate other than standing around doing nothing.  So you see, your "stop attacking" suggestion is useless, and I even joked about it in my OP.  Did you somehow miss the bit about cybering with my fellow dps and playing lon?

Then you go on and admit that only 1% of tanks can hold aggro, and that our current tools for lowering our aggro are insufficient.  You seem to think that merely increasing the amount they deaggro for is the solution.  Fine, that would help, but part of my point is a deaggro that's effective for someone doing 20k dps won't be effective for someone who does 40k and would be overkill for someone who does 10k.

My suggestions were the ideas I came up with in about 5 minutes of thinking about it while writing the post, but they would scale and in my opinion would take more skill to use than simply increasing the amount of our deaggros.  At least it would take *some* judgement on when to use them most effectively instead of a passive ability (ignorant bliss) or using them every time they were up (evade, if the amount it deaggro'd for even made it worth using).

Food for thought:  Evade was deaggroing for 300k for me (I still had it apprentice until right before the patch).  At 30k dps, that's 10s of hate it wipes out.  That's really not that much, and it allowed me to jump in PUG's with a tank doing 4k dps and still have fun.  It had ZERO effect when I was with a tank who could hold aggro because I didn't use it.  

Oh and way to go with the ad hom attacks, it really helps you make your case. :/

[Seiffil]

Banditman wrote:

Seiffil@Permafrost wrote:

Managing aggro is all fine and dandy.  When it takes 2 - 3 attacks to go up to the top of the hate list and you have no tools to significantly lower your hate there's a problem.

You do have a tool, it's called a brain.  I make sure I equip mine when I log in.  Seems to work pretty well.

Experience groups, it's pretty much stating that there must be some form of aggro transfer, or hate increase from coercer or dirge, or the dps ends up tanking.

Or a talented Fighter.  That always works.  And DPS with their brains equipped.

No one is stating that the deaggro needs to be at 300-500k that was definitely too high.  However you can't say that having 2 deaggro's that hit for 5k is enough when on a ranger at least, you can be auto attacking for 40-50k+ and then you get to add in your CA and proc damage.  Not attacking could be valid...but the amount of time it took hate to drop to a reasonable level was painfully slow.

I agree, the de-aggro is too low.  It needs to scale with damage, which it has not done, at all.  However, waiting for hate to drop is not just a function of the player who has too much, but of the player who *should* have the most.  Once again, there are eleventy bajillion Fighters out there, about 1% of them know what they are doing.  Sadly.

There needs to be a way to actively manage aggro.  I'm not talking about changing things to where they were prior to the fix where you could pretty much go full dps burn and never be worried about pulling aggro, but the aggro management abilities have to have the ability to make a difference.

Aggro is just as much a task for the Fighter as it is for you, and vice versa.  You're approaching the problem from the wrong direction with this line of thinking.

The numbers on evade and other detaunt abilities were probably fine for how damage was during RoK and TSO, but in SF where you have people parsing significantly higher, 5k evades, stalks, and 2k ignorant bliss procs are about as effective as trying to stop a bus from running you over with your hands.

Here is your real problem right here.  De-aggro has not at all kept up with what it once was.  In the world of potency, multi attack and crit bonus, the numbers are just flat out wrong.  They need to be big enough that using them as part of a regular rotation will have have an overall effect on aggro.  They should not become "snaps" or "reverse rescue" type abilities.  They should however serve to keep the overall level of threat generation lower when used regularly.

Enough with the brains equipped, I do watch the aggro meter, I do try to control my aggro, aside from evasive maneuvers, nothing is really effective.

Don't attack me for telling the truth, don't assume that I don't try to watch aggro and just mindlessly attack.  I know that aggro is a two way street, the responsibility of both the fighter and the dps.  I'm not approaching this from the wrong way, I'm asking that they look at the deaggro abilities we have and make them such they are actually useful in managing in our aggro.  The broken detaunts I've already said were too much, since it really didn't require someone to ever pay attention to the hate meter.  

I never said I wanted something that was a snap or a reverse rescue.  Honestly you can treat evasive maneuvers as a snap since it's a 1 position hate decrease, and after using it, it's not hard to climb back up on the hate meter, especially with a mediocre tank.  When I say actively manage my aggro, I'm refering to making evade, stalk and similar abilities allow me to use them in a way to keep everything at a reasonable level, basically as you said be able to work it into my rotation, right now the only one semi useful is evasive maneuvers but without being able to use anything other then not attacking to keep aggro from climbing right back up as a hate management tool it's not enough. 

I just want the tools we have to be effective to the point where I don't find myself restricted to auto attack damage only, or having to turn off attack every 10 seconds, as well as not hinge on the requirement of whether or not my group has a coercer or dirge for hate.

[Ralpmet]

I don't get why scouts complain.

Don't you have an aa that melee drops your hate position by 1? Isn't that sufficient enough to burn a mob up to 99% hate then drop it back to 1 again? Or am I offbase on how hate works? (I know that my mage has that type of aa ability, and even with ~40% hate reduction I still wind up sitting around 90, and I pop that aa ability off and I'm sitting at a cozy like 20 or so.)

edit: This just in, confirmation:

edit2: I see you acknowledge you have this. I don't play any high end scouts so I'm curious if you're actually hitting 100% hate more than once a minute, and if so why do you have such bad tanks? Also, why do you button mash so furiously? You can't take a chill pill if you know the tank sucks?

[Seiffil]

Ralpmet wrote:

I don't get why scouts complain.

Don't you have an aa that melee drops your hate position by 1? Isn't that sufficient enough to burn a mob up to 99% hate then drop it back to 1 again? Or am I offbase on how hate works? (I know that my mage has that type of aa ability, and even with ~40% hate reduction I still wind up sitting around 90, and I pop that aa ability off and I'm sitting at a cozy like 20 or so.)

edit2: I see you acknowledge you have this. I don't play any high end scouts so I'm curious if you're actually hitting 100% hate more than once a minute, and if so why do you have such bad tanks? Also, why do you button mash so furiously? You can't take a chill pill if you know the tank sucks?

It drops you one position, so if you use it when you're at 100% and the next person is at 95%, you should drop down to just below the next person.

Put it this way 5 people are on a hate list (Numbers are all random)

Tank 100%

Scout A  90%

Mage A  75%

Scout B  74%

Mage B  65%

If scout A uses evasive maneuvers, Mage A stays at 75%, but Scout A is now below him on that list right around 75%.  If Mage A were to have used bewilderment (the mage equivalent), he would drop below scout B, but the hate meter wouldn't really drop much since he was already at 74%.  Where you go on the aggro meter depends on where the people below you are, which unless you're at the top of the list, you won't be able to see the person's hate just below you.

Part of the problem, and this is especially true with mediocre or bad tanks, is that auto attack alone can pull aggro.  I've had tanks where I've had to change the weapons I had equipped and go to maybe only hitting 1 CA between an auto attack if I can even afford to use them that often, and that also includes laying off of the more damaging CA's available. 

You also don't want to burn up to 99% hate on the aggro meter either, I've known people who felt they weren't doing enough dps if they weren't as high on the hate list as possible without pulling aggro, the problem with this idea especially on a raid is if you happen to spike up to 100% while building up before you try to wipe aggro, is you may pull aggro right as an AE is going to go off and get the frontal on the people who needed to avoid it.  I honestly wouldn't even want to run it over 75% if I can help it.  The problem really is that the amounts from the other deaggro's, evade and stalk for predators, aren't enough to matter with how dps has scaled.  I'm not sure if there's also an issue with taunts as well not having scaled up with the dps either for that matter.

[Banditman]

You are describing two completely separate issues, each and every respondent.

1.  Bad Tanks.

There are more of these than good tanks, sadly.  A lot more.  In fact, I'd go so far as to say there are probably only one tank out of 10 who are really, really good at their craft.  This problem is compounded by the fact that DPS is just too (*@# easy in this game.  It doesn't take half a brain cell to DPS on pretty much any class.

Bad tanks aren't going away.  Get over it.  When you identify one who is unworkable, put him on your ignore list and if you find yourself in a group with him in a roundabout method, politely excuse yourself from the group.  There are definitely tanks on my server who I will never, ever group with.  My ignore list is epic.  x4 even.

2.  De-Aggro scaling.

It's just terrible.  It's never been all that good.  My Wizard has multiple de-aggro abilities of his own.  NONE of them remove as much aggro as I generate in ONE NUKE.  One middle of the road nuke, let alone a "real" punch in the face nuke.

That is broken mechanics and needs to be adjusted.  You know what would be great?  If these deaggro abilities like Evade actually tracked aggro over the last 10 seconds or so and when used, removed a percentage of the total aggro generated.  50% of my aggro over the last 10 seconds dumped?  Yea, that would be useful regardless of how hard I was going.  I'd still have to watch it with the tank, because I am only dumping a small portion of my overall hate, but it would help a lot so long as I paid attention.

[On3iron]

I also loved the way my detaunts worked while they were bugged. Now they just take up space on the hotbar.

[Sydares]

Deagro scaling is an utter joke. When I can autoattack for multiple tens of thousands with a double-attack and flurry combo, do you really think that a dethreat of 6,000 (if critical) is acceptable? I can count the number of times that evade, cat-like reflexes and stalk have saved me in their non-bugged form on one hand.

Frankly, you should just make them a set number and a positional drop, like all of the detaunts that are worth anything.

[Kordran]

Banditman wrote:

whytakemine wrote:

Not just evade, but all dps classes should get some way to play an active and effective role in managing their aggro.

While I agree that the "de-aggros" are currently a mess and pretty much worthless, every DPS class already plays an "active and effective role in managing their aggro".  If your aggro gets too high STOP DOING DAMAGE.  You have the tools in place to see exactly where you are, pay attention, don't just mindlessly spam your chains.

While what you're saying is technically correct, the "stand there, put your thumb up your nethers and do nothing" approach is not exactly what I think any DPS class would consider to be even remotely fun. You might as well tell them to just auto-attack and click the revive button on an as-needed basis.

Yes, there are a lot of sub-par tanks running around but that's the reality of things. So your solution to his problem basically amounts to either (a) don't do much damage, (b) only group with raid tanks. To make the game fun for those folks, SOE needs to figure out a middle-ground here.

[Umub]

I entirely agree with the "need better deaggro" tools. But in the vein of helping those who may not know, a good way to reduce your aggro is to use deaggro adornments. You can put them on wrist items and gloves. This can reduce your aggro by up to 15%. Add some yellow deaggro adornments and you can reduce it even farther.

Some other ideas:

1. Start the fight with debuffs or long cast CAs (like crippling arrow) to give the tank some time to get aggro. Otherwise, one auto attack can easily grab aggro.
2. Time evasive manuevers (on named fights anyway). I will make sure that evasive maneuvers is up and then go through my biggest hitters with PFT running knowing that I will grab aggro then hit evasive maneuvers.
3. Make friends with a paladin. If the paladin puts amends on you and knows how to at least mash some buttons you should be golden.

By the way, before the fix I can recall numerous PUGs where I was able to do 25-30K dps on named fights while the other 5 peope in the group managed 8-10K combined without taking aggro. I don't recall if paladin's were present or not.

[Ballads]

Umub wrote:

I entirely agree with the "need better deaggro" tools. But in the vein of helping those who may not know, a good way to reduce your aggro is to use deaggro adornments. You can put them on wrist items and gloves. This can reduce your aggro by up to 15%. Add some yellow deaggro adornments and you can reduce it even farther.

Some other ideas:

1. Start the fight with debuffs or long cast CAs (like crippling arrow) to give the tank some time to get aggro. Otherwise, one auto attack can easily grab aggro.
2. Time evasive manuevers (on named fights anyway). I will make sure that evasive maneuvers is up and then go through my biggest hitters with PFT running knowing that I will grab aggro then hit evasive maneuvers.
3. Make friends with a paladin. If the paladin puts amends on you and knows how to at least mash some buttons you should be golden.

By the way, before the fix I can recall numerous PUGs where I was able to do 25-30K dps on named fights while the other 5 peope in the group managed 8-10K combined without taking aggro. I don't recall if paladin's were present or not.

You think this fix hurt scout playstyle? Try being a wizard. Dyna and el blast were get out of joil free cards. My dethreat out parsed my damage by miles some fights. Every 25 seconds an ice comet come out my hands it hits for 100k-250k a 5k dehate proc chance and my own 5k dethreat proc aint cutting it. thats 1 spell forget the 1mill+ i can do in a 10 second FB combo. i can cast my version of Evade before, after and probably during my fb combo and its dethreat wouldn't be 10% of the damage im outputting.

hate degen% caps at 50% and xfer at 50% as well even at half aggro(100% less) 10k deaggro's dont do anything with 300k high hits.

[Draylore]

They need to make Evade useful.....not OP but useful....i.e worth using.

It was stupidly OP and now its completely useless.

That said for me it really hasnt made much of a difference.....I never really needed it when it was OP.....was nice to have a complete aggro dump if I needed it but wasnt really required.  

Now i just dont even bother having it on my cast bar and aggro seems about the same.....proper use of Evasive Manuevers its really all we need.

[Gungo]

Taunts and detaunts all need significant upgrades. The evade amount was a bit unrealistic but the current amount is negliable. There should be a happy medium somewhere.

Honestly I dont think adding extra reliance on positional deagros are the way to go. They should just give more classes raid wide base taunt % adjusters. The way % taunt adjustments work they only increase class based taunts/detaunts and not item procs.

Bruisers have a 16% taunt % raid wide adjustment. I think this can be raised to 100%. I think guards will benefit from adding another 100% raid wide taunt % adjustment to them. I can see summoners getting a raidwide 50% taunt adjuster and troubs getting another raidwide 50% taunt adjuster.

That will equal 300% taunt/detaunt increasers. Making a typical 6k base evade a 18k detaunt without a classes potency/crit-critbonus which could theoretically make evade a 50k deagro.

[Katanalla]

Sorry for saying the detaunts were dumb at FF then? The main issue was that agro control became dumb for preds / sorcs ~ what's the point when one can dps all day knowing they detaunt per second 2-3x more hate than they're gaining. Also it was an obvious bug as Evade for rogues / bards were still only in the 6-10k range, while preds were mysteriously upwards of 650k.

Though I do agree a lot of taunts / detaunts need upgrading, I don't even bother with Evade, the only detaunts worth a [Removed for Content] are the hate position ones.

[Eritius]

Take out the detaunt portion of the stealthing one. Take the detaunt off evade and make the cooldown one minute and make it decrease threat position by one.

Then up the threat of tanks so they can hold threat off an equally geared scout. Problem fixed.

Scouts should be able to go 100% DPS if the tank is going 100% threat.

[Seiffil]

Taemien wrote:

Take out the detaunt portion of the stealthing one. Take the detaunt off evade and make the cooldown one minute and make it decrease threat position by one.

Then up the threat of tanks so they can hold threat off an equally geared scout. Problem fixed.

Scouts should be able to go 100% DPS if the tank is going 100% threat.

I'm not opposed to being required to have some responsibility towards my aggro.  100% dps is what predators and I think sorcerors as well were able to do while the detaunts were bugged.  It just allowed evade and stalk to be used as get out of jail free cards.  They really just need to find a way to make those detaunts useful, cause right now, autoattacking and hitting 4-5 CA's and needing to stop attacking because I went up to 90% aggro is ridiculous.

I'd rather them make those detaunts useful, rather then force everyone to rely on positional detaunts in order to deal with aggro management.

[Terron]

Tanks should not be able to hold aggro off equal geared high DPS classes going flat out alone.

They should need help - hate buffs (capped at 50%) and hate transfer (also capped at 50%)  should be needed, and then taunts and detaunts, snaps and hate position reducers should be needed on top off that (assuming equal level/gear, etc.).

At least taunts can critical now and some are worth casting again for the sake of gaining aggro. My main is a guard and has one encounter taunt/damage CA that just reduces his HPS. At least since the last GU I can do a decent job even without a dirge in the group. Given a dirge and a coercer I can hold multiple mobs against better geared toons (I was going so in an x2 last night, thought the second group was not optimal). I have the mini-amends, some hate boosting AAs (only where needed to qualify for other AAs) and some hate boosting adornments. I did was not using all my hate producing gear as I needed to maximize my defense as I still have a lot of T8 gear and was MTing T9 for the first time.

Guards still need more DPS or utility but not to hold aggro - it is needed so they bring as much to a raid as other plate tanks. Boosting taunts/detaunts would not be against the style of guards, but may other classes could also be given such boosts. There is room for a lot of buffing as the values are still quite low.

[Writer Cal]

Design choices that force a player to stand there and do nothing for a good long while are about as interesting as design choices that take control away from a player.  They are not fun.  They do not involve skill.  Standing there and picking your nose is not a tactic.  It's lazy, and it's frustrating.

Let us DO something about our aggro besides taking an afk to make a sandwich.

[Sydares]

Daenee@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Design choices that force a player to stand there and do nothing for a good long while are about as interesting as design choices that take control away from a player.  They are not fun.  They do not involve skill.  Standing there and picking your nose is not a tactic.  It's lazy, and it's frustrating.

Let us DO something about our aggro besides taking an afk to make a sandwich.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^

[Neiloch]

Daenee@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Design choices that force a player to stand there and do nothing for a good long while are about as interesting as design choices that take control away from a player.  They are not fun.  They do not involve skill.  Standing there and picking your nose is not a tactic.  It's lazy, and it's frustrating.

Let us DO something about our aggro besides taking an afk to make a sandwich.

They do seem to like this tactic, when it should be a big frggin rule on the wall saying they are never able to implement it as a fight mechanic on anything EVER. A certain dev who is no longer around also believed mechanics that took players out of a fight was stupid. Be it for aggro, curses or other detrimental effects. Hell with the new system that allows you to get back in raid after a LD these tactics are tantamount to just booting the player to character select. Its universally terrible. Oh i'm cursed, might as well go AFK since doing anything is either completely useless or would wipe the raid. YAY!

AND just to be sure in case a dev thinks they have a handle on this and we don't know what we are doing, I do use deaggros throughout longer fights even if I'm not dangerously high to help keep it down, still not nearly enough. Deaggros went from nearly useless to overpowered to nearly useless again. Only time I have found them remotely useful besides the positional one is when a mob memwipes, I haven't hit it yet but the tank is trying to build aggro again. So basically they are only significant compared to zero damage.

Go to that big spreadsheet or custom calculator you got that you use to pump out items and values for attacks, and change it to show taunts and deaggros are significantly less effective than it shows currently so we don't have to use positionals as a crutch.

[Pakhet]

Agree that deaggros are broken - on my chanter bewilderment is enough of a deaggro to keep me from ripping hate. On my scout, I hit my DPS chain at all and I have the mob in instances about 80% (I usually start it after mob is about 20% down and I have like 10% hate and have to stop the chain or pull aggro) of the time. So I just don't touch the chain buttons (IE: double up as a brigand) unless I have a really good tank.    

Is it cause of bad tanks? A lot of it, yeah. But there are way too many bad tanks in the game, especially on low pop servers.