Venril Sathir - unfair roadblock for some classes

[Iled]

OK, I'll begin by saying I'm not looking for help and advice on the strategy for this guy or comments from ppl saying how easy and fun he is (because neither is true). We've been doing him for weeks now and know exactly what's needed (best try is down to 20%). I'm posting this in the hope that a dev will read it and reconsider the many fail conditions on this fight, given where he sits in progression (It's supposed to be T2 remember).

The problem with this fight is that all 24 ppl in the raid need to concentrate 100% for the entire fight. Any LD's can wipe the raid for everyone, someone having to leave the keyboard in an emergency can wipe the raid, someone being tired and missing a cure or whatever can wipe the raid, one missed click on the statues can wipe the raid, someone lagging can wipe the raid, someone missing the detremental can wipe the raid - the list goes on. 

OK, so this guy is needed to allow access to Levi and for quite a few myth updates for classes. However, given that just one person is needed to zone the entire raid into Levi he's not actually a roadbloack for VP access and most guilds just skip him. We're doing VP and got past both Druushk and Nex fairly easily (and Nex as ppl will know isn't that easy a fight). So, we now have the situation where most ppl in the raid have or will get their myths very soon. However, for those classes that need VS for their myth update (myself included) we're stuffed until we get VS down. I could understand if VS and Levi were switched and EVERYONE needed to kill VS to progress into VP for example, but thats not the case - he's just a roadblock for some classes.

Now, I'm lucky that my guild is still trying VS on a regular basis to get us our updates, but its time wasted when we could be doing VP and TSO and frustrating for all concerned. There must be many people though that don't have a guild that is prepared to try it regularily...and I know from talking to others that guilds have broken up over this guy.

There's a reason no one wants to do this mob...its not fun or rewarding, plain and simple. We're here to have fun (and yes for some challenge) at the end of the day.

Suggestions: Lower the % that he starts monitoring the raids power..to say start at 45%. Or reduce the frequency of the detrementals.

Thanks for reading, I feel better to have got that off my chest

iled (Mystic, Befallen)

[Errolflynn]

I'll second that.

On the face of it he doesn't seem to hard but something always seems to go wrong.

All it probably needs is a few things toned down a bit.

[Frain]

So you want him nerfed becoes you are unable to kill him?

Do like most guilds had to, sit down there for weeks learning the encounter and in the end you will manage to get him locked down. VS used to be the big block before you could do the harder zones and is ment to be really hard. The reason he is so early in progression is becoes he doesnt require gear or dps or anything like that, just consentration.

[Griffildur]

it is indeed a hard fight and one mistake from one person will wipe the raid.

However he does prepare you for what comes ahead, other mobs will require 24 people to work together as one.

I say stick at it and you will kill him when your raid plays like a team.

[Errolflynn]

Well for some guilds it's hard enough getting 24 people let alone 24 who are competent and can concentrate.

VS is now an expansion old and the top teir raid guilds are long past him, don't you thing others should perhaps have a sporting chance.

[Iled]

Learning the encounter isn't the problem. We know what's needed. It's the many fail conditions I'm objecting to and the pure luck needed to get that 'perfect' fight. I don't have a problem having this type of fight somewhere in the progression - its just that he's in the wrong place and only really holds up some classes (that's my real problem with him). There's a reason guilds avoid this guy like the plague.

[Errolflynn]

Mrrshan@Runnyeye wrote:

it is indeed a hard fight and one mistake from one person will wipe the raid.

However he does prepare you for what comes ahead, other mobs will require 24 people to work together as one.

I say stick at it and you will kill him when your raid plays like a team.

Well, we've cleared over half way through VP and no mob so far has had such harsh fail conditions.

[CoLD MeTaL]

LHFOwner2 wrote:

OK, I'll begin by saying I'm not looking for help and advice on the strategy for this guy or comments from ppl saying how easy and fun he is (because neither is true). We've been doing him for weeks now and know exactly what's needed (best try is down to 20%). I'm posting this in the hope that a dev will read it and reconsider the many fail conditions on this fight, given where he sits in progression (It's supposed to be T2 remember).

The problem with this fight is that all 24 ppl in the raid need to concentrate 100% for the entire fight. Any LD's can wipe the raid for everyone, someone having to leave the keyboard in an emergency can wipe the raid, someone being tired and missing a cure or whatever can wipe the raid, one missed click on the statues can wipe the raid, someone lagging can wipe the raid, someone missing the detremental can wipe the raid - the list goes on. 

OK, so this guy is needed to allow access to Levi and for quite a few myth updates for classes. However, given that just one person is needed to zone the entire raid into Levi he's not actually a roadbloack for VP access and most guilds just skip him. We're doing VP and got past both Druushk and Nex fairly easily (and Nex as ppl will know isn't that easy a fight). So, we now have the situation where most ppl in the raid have or will get their myths very soon. However, for those classes that need VS for their myth update (myself included) we're stuffed until we get VS down. I could understand if VS and Levi were switched and EVERYONE needed to kill VS to progress into VP for example, but thats not the case - he's just a roadblock for some classes.

Now, I'm lucky that my guild is still trying VS on a regular basis to get us our updates, but its time wasted when we could be doing VP and TSO and frustrating for all concerned. There must be many people though that don't have a guild that is prepared to try it regularily...and I know from talking to others that guilds have broken up over this guy.

There's a reason no one wants to do this mob...its not fun or rewarding, plain and simple. We're here to have fun (and yes for some challenge) at the end of the day.

Suggestions: Lower the % that he starts monitoring the raids power..to say start at 45%. Or reduce the frequency of the detrementals.

Thanks for reading, I feel better to have got that off my chest

iled (Mystic, Befallen)

Totally agree with the current low populations on servers it is hard enough to get 24 people that can raid the same time slot, VS just has too many 'instant' wipe conditions.

[hellfire]

Errolflynn@Befallen wrote:

Mrrshan@Runnyeye wrote:

it is indeed a hard fight and one mistake from one person will wipe the raid.

However he does prepare you for what comes ahead, other mobs will require 24 people to work together as one.

I say stick at it and you will kill him when your raid plays like a team.

Well, we've cleared over half way through VP and no mob so far has had such harsh fail conditions.

Dont worry there are a boat load of those waiting for you in TSO.

But As far as  RoK Trakonon  is like   this.

And their are a few in  SoH   like this also.

[Iled]

I'm not worried about the others, as they don't hold up progression in quite the same way. They can be skipped, or not, depending on how ppl feel - the last couple of mobs in SoH for example are not essential (aside from some nice drops). The point of my VS objection is that he's a requirement for some ppl's myth updates.

[hellfire]

Well considering even the easiest TSO raid zones carry these type of mob ....you might want to get use to it unless just gonna stay in VP forever.

[Ammolite]

100% consentration is important for some raid mobs, not all of them are easy.

Trak doesn't take that my paying attention if you don't have certain buffs. Byzola is kinda like this guy, with you having to be fast about curing.

I honestly don't get why everyone has a hard time though. You watch your buffs, make sure to cure yourself, and keep your power in check. If there's a problem, you can drop people because you don't need a x4. Sure it can be hard at times, and you may wipe a few times. People will get upset, but it can be done if you go slow and just pay attention. I assure you that almost all the TSO mobs that I've encountered are like this too. It's a good step to moving on.

Now getting people to do VS, that's the real thing that needs to be fixed.

[Ranja]

LHFOwner2 wrote:

OK, I'll begin by saying I'm not looking for help and advice on the strategy for this guy or comments from ppl saying how easy and fun he is (because neither is true). We've been doing him for weeks now and know exactly what's needed (best try is down to 20%). I'm posting this in the hope that a dev will read it and reconsider the many fail conditions on this fight, given where he sits in progression (It's supposed to be T2 remember).

The problem with this fight is that all 24 ppl in the raid need to concentrate 100% for the entire fight. Any LD's can wipe the raid for everyone, someone having to leave the keyboard in an emergency can wipe the raid, someone being tired and missing a cure or whatever can wipe the raid, one missed click on the statues can wipe the raid, someone lagging can wipe the raid, someone missing the detremental can wipe the raid - the list goes on.

OK, so this guy is needed to allow access to Levi and for quite a few myth updates for classes. However, given that just one person is needed to zone the entire raid into Levi he's not actually a roadbloack for VP access and most guilds just skip him. We're doing VP and got past both Druushk and Nex fairly easily (and Nex as ppl will know isn't that easy a fight). So, we now have the situation where most ppl in the raid have or will get their myths very soon. However, for those classes that need VS for their myth update (myself included) we're stuffed until we get VS down. I could understand if VS and Levi were switched and EVERYONE needed to kill VS to progress into VP for example, but thats not the case - he's just a roadblock for some classes.

Now, I'm lucky that my guild is still trying VS on a regular basis to get us our updates, but its time wasted when we could be doing VP and TSO and frustrating for all concerned. There must be many people though that don't have a guild that is prepared to try it regularily...and I know from talking to others that guilds have broken up over this guy.

There's a reason no one wants to do this mob...its not fun or rewarding, plain and simple. We're here to have fun (and yes for some challenge) at the end of the day.

Suggestions: Lower the % that he starts monitoring the raids power..to say start at 45%. Or reduce the frequency of the detrementals.

Thanks for reading, I feel better to have got that off my chest

iled (Mystic, Befallen)

/agreed.

I am glad to hear other guilds are having this problem. We are in VP but have still not downed this guy. Luckily, I am in a great guild and we are discussing now how to manage the VS problem. IE, holding up the entire raid force to kill one mob needed for some classes updates.

Just wanted to toss my voice in here and say I agree.

[Gaige]

Venril Sathir is fine.  He'll get even easier as the rest of your raid gets their mythicals.

[RafaelSmith]

Gage wrote:

Venril Sathir is fine. He'll get even easier as the rest of your raid gets their mythicals.

My guild finally took out Overking this past saturday.  Afterwards we went to VS...knowing we were not gonna win but to scope it out and get a feel for just how painful the fight will be.

I have not doubt we can do it...but the problem is that so many people can simply skip it.  I was already hearing people chatting about going to CoD next week because its all that is needed to get VP access.

I foresee having major problems getting enough people to goto VS more than once.

I have been playing this games long enough and know a thing or two about progression.  It is bottlenecks like VS that can lead to guilds falling apart.  Once people are VP flagged then thats where they want to be.

Personally i think they need to make so everyone needs to have killed VS to be able to zone into CoD.

If it were up to me we would be hitting VS over and over until we got it down and we got everyone who needed the update their update instead of letting half the people skip.

[Iled]

Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:

Gage wrote:

Venril Sathir is fine. He'll get even easier as the rest of your raid gets their mythicals.

I foresee having major problems getting enough people to goto VS more than once.

I have been playing this games long enough and know a thing or two about progression.  It is bottlenecks like VS that can lead to guilds falling apart.  Once people are VP flagged then thats where they want to be.

Personally i think they need to make so everyone needs to have killed VS to be able to zone into CoD.

Exactly! Someone gets it

[GangleG]

Everyone else that needed the update for VS did it, so why should it be changed just for you?  If you can't kill the mob, then you don't deserve your mythical.

Honestly, if you're complaining about VS, then I can't even imagine you trying to kill any of the new raids mobs besides the loot piniatas in Mad Crusader (2) and Palace of the Ancient One (1). 

Watch your power and cure - it isn't a hard fight.

[Iled]

lol funny and thanks for the vote of confidence.

The issue with this fight isn't that *I* can't do it, its that the fight relies on all 24 ppl doing a dance throughout the entire fight and no one lagging and no one LD'ing etc etc. But then, you knew that...so I guess you're just trolling

[hellfire]

LHFOwner2 wrote:

lol funny and thanks for the vote of confidence.

The issue with this fight isn't that *I* can't do it, its that the fight relies on all 24 ppl doing a dance throughout the entire fight and no one lagging and no one LD'ing etc etc. But then, you knew that...so I guess you're just trolling

Then do it with less people...2 or 3 grps.

Take the people that have issues and leave em dead in the zone or dont bring em in....you dont need 24 people hell your dont even need 12 people.....................its not a dps or mana or heal intensiv fight.

[Noaani]

Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:

I foresee having major problems getting enough people to goto VS more than once.

If your guild is not willing to go to kill VS in order to get updates for Coercer and Conjuror, Fury, Monk, Mystic, Ranger or Troubador that needs the update, I suggest finding guild members that are more willing to work as a team and to improve as a team.

VS is not hard. It takes a little determination, some commitment from the guild and a bit of practise, but it is not hard.

[TheSpin]

I have to agree with the OP.  My current guild has killed Trak and Maestro, and the groans they offer when it's time to get someone a mythical update from VS are proof enough.  I think the last time we killed him we wiped 3-5 times... not bad, but considering the only other bosses that wipe the raid so frequently are Trak and Maestro I can definately sympathize with the OP.

I actually left the game a year ago because VS was a roadblock which demoralized and eventually caused about half of our raiding force to try new games (different guild).

[wullailhuit]

I have to agree with the other side , if you can't kill VS then you won't even get started with the new lower tier raid zones , many of them have fail conditions similar to VS , not always power but your raid force needs 100% concentration while fighting , watching your detrimental window/power or you fail.

VS is a good training ground for TSO raids.

admittedly he is a real pain in the posterior , it sometimes took us 9+ times in a single night to start with to get everyone working together before he went down , but we stuck at it and killed him.

Even now when we have to backflag for mythicals we sometimes take a couple of times before everyone gets into the fight before he goes down.

But keep at him and he will go down.

[Natthan]

Yes VS is not that enjoyable of a fight in terms of how nerve racking it is, but it should be required of all guilds since it helps you weed out stupid people TBH.

Also I think having Myths makes this fight harder...Wardens can't use their wep at all in that fight amung others.

[Thanon]

/shrug

I don't see what people are complaining about. VS is one of the trully challenging encounters in EQ2 that's not a simple tank-and-spank mob.

Seriously. Look at most raid mobs

Pull to corner.

Turn mob for kickback.

joust AoE

Cure when necessary

DPS until dead.

That is the SUM total of most raid mobs up until TSO, and a handful of RoK. Cake raiding.

I, for one, am incredibly happy for encounters which are heavily scripted and require 24 people focusing 100% of the time. Raiding isn't supposed to be child's play. It's supposed to take a combined effort of players. And most of the raids require one or two people doing their job and the rest can sit and watch TV while spamming their buttons and still win. TSO introduced a lot of scripted encounters, and there are a few in RoK, which are moving away from that trend and taking a note from WoW (which, despite what most people think, has some of the most challenging raid content in any game out there because it's ALL scripted and EVERY member of the raid is important).

Sounds to me like everyone wants ezmode.

That being said, our guild just hit VP full time 2 weeks ago. We started raiding shortly after TSO went live. We cleared pre VP for flags and mythical updates in around 6 weeks. We did VS on our 4th try (fourth pull) and had a nearly flawless victory, other than a couple of assassins dying. We went into Druushk expecting something rough, but to be honest, he's a pansy. The hardest part was getting the pull right for our own particular setup, and while we did not kill him (we only had 5 healers on the raid that night), we got him to 40% with only 5 healers (and only 2 in the MT group healing me). I expect Nex and a few of the others to be somewhat challenging, but give us 6 or 8 tries and I garuantee we'll have it figured out.

EQ2 raiding is not hard, people. Not in the least. This just furthers my belief that the hardest part about raiding is getting 24 people together who can stay focused 100% of the time. After that, everything is cake.

It sounds harsh but my honest opinion is that if you are having a hard time on VS it's because the people you are with fail. He does not hit hard. You could probably do him with 3 groups, although it would take awhile. We don't have our mythicals (our guild) and yet we were able to do him on the 4th pull with NPs. All it takes is having people who can focus 100% for about 5 minutes. After that, it's cake.

If you can clear VS then VP is a cake, or so everyone is telling me. I've only gone in 4 times now (to VP) and from what I've seen...I can tank half-asleep. I know that changes on a few mobs which are scripted, but honestly, the whole pull-to-corner-turn-mob-for-kickback-cure with pots-and-jouse-aoe is just so 1990's. I've been playing for 14 years now and raiding for around 12 of those and I am SO sick to death of tank-and-spank encounters that are ALWAYS the same. EVERY mob kickbacks, EVERY mob needs to be planted in a corner, EVERY mob AoE's, EVERY mob needs a curer...it's SO boring. I'm REALLY excited to see more scripting coming into the game because scripting makes raiding fun again, because it breathes some life back into it.

[Iled]

To clarify my original post, my objection isn't that this mob exists (although I do think its fail-conditions are OTT and not fun) - what I'm objecting to are:

1) he's supposed to be T2 yet is harder to kill than almost any other mob in ROK, in SoH and the initial mobs in TSO. It doesn't reward good skill or people understanding their class - it rewards people with stable network connections, the ability to not be interrupted and people that enjoy watching their detremental window like a madman.

2) He only needs to be killed by some classes. I could understand, as I said earlier, if he was in Levi's spot and everyone needed to kill him to progress into VP, but that's not the case. The majority of classes can skip on by to get their mythicals and not have to worry. For those that do need him, they might be lucky and have a guild that keeps trying him, or they may not. Lets be honest, once your guild has VP access thats where they want to be. They don't want to be dragged back to VS. My main alt is a coercer - I don't expect to be back anytime soon for that update.

tbh - I'd rather I needed Trak than VS. At least then it would be a kill in VP, a zone the guild should be doing, rather than a T2 zone that nobody in their right mind wants to do and which drops nothing anyone wants.

Some of the responses to this topic highlight the problem with this fight. Saying we should leave friends out that we've raided with successfully through every other zone to reduce the chance of problems demonstrates this - that's an example of why this fight has broken up guilds and caused bad-will. People in the 'hard core' raiding guilds saying this fight is easy also need to remember not every guild can bring the perfect setup each time, or that the people able to make each fight will be the same.

Anyway, I accept that I will have to kill this guy for my update and we will eventually get him. That doesn't change the fact he still needs to be toned down in my opinion and brought more into line for the tier he's supposed to be in.

[Griffildur]

Hey Thanon,

you have to understand there are many people who do not want this. It's the Wow generation who has issues as soon as something is out of the ordinary and the general tank / spank strategy does not work.

There's a reason Wow is so succesfull and I hope it stays that way and keep most of Wow generation there, to be honest.

It's the same people who moan that only fully fabled raiders can do TSO, same people who moan there's not enough solo content and same ppl who moan that loot quality does not equal raid one.

I do not agree with the statement that VP is cake after you kill VS. The first deadlock in VP is Druushk. Can't really comment after this as my guild is still working on Druushk.

Yes Venril is annoying but really all one needs to do is watch power consumption for most of the fight , which is a requirement for many raid mobs. Heck is a requirement for group fights as well.

Eq2 has alreadsy been dumbed down a lot in all areas, so much that any1 can lvl a toon to 80 in a few days, but does not mean they can actually play it too. I hope they add more challenging raiding mobs. Sometimes even when you know the script and know what you need to do it's still  a hard fight because 24 people have to work together.

Isn't that the whole point of a raid ?

[Griffildur]

in reply to OP

I do not agree that fights like this reward only people with stable conections. it's a MMO and everyone needs a decent connection to play which is achieveble almost everywhere.

One person is not a skilled person just because of a stable network connection. A skilled person is someone who can keep an eye on all details in a fight, communicate with the other raid members and react appropriatelly when something needs a reaction. It's not jst about dps , it's not just about gear and heck it's not even about mythicals. Someone who can't play without  a mythical, won't suddenly become good with one.

Might be time to weed out those who cant watch their windows and keep those that can

[Iled]

Mrrshan@Runnyeye wrote:

in reply to OP

I do not agree that fights like this reward only people with stable conections. it's a MMO and everyone needs a decent connection to play which is achieveble almost everywhere.

One person is not a skilled person just because of a stable network connection. A skilled person is someone who can keep an eye on all details in a fight, communicate with the other raid members and react appropriatelly when something needs a reaction. It's not jst about dps , it's not just about gear and heck it's not even about mythicals. Someone who can't play without  a mythical, won't suddenly become good with one.

Might be time to weed out those who cant watch their windows and keep those that can

I agree a stable connection doesn't make a good player of course. I wasn't saying otherwise. The reason I mentioned the network connection is that we've wiped quite a few times now due to ppl lagging badly or LD'ing during the fight. It's one of the reasons for wiping...and one we can't control.

[Errolflynn]

Mrrshan@Runnyeye wrote:

I do not agree with the statement that VP is cake after you kill VS. The first deadlock in VP is Druushk. Can't really comment after this as my guild is still working on Druushk.

I'm sorry but Druushk and Nexona are cake walks compaired to VS, we've got first time kills on both in less than 10 pulls and still haven't killed VS after 30+.

If VS was where Druushk or Nexona was that would be fine as everyone would need to kill him but at the moment a subset of classes are severely penalised by needing him for their myth updates.

[Griffildur]

Errolflynn@Befallen wrote:

Mrrshan@Runnyeye wrote:

I do not agree with the statement that VP is cake after you kill VS. The first deadlock in VP is Druushk. Can't really comment after this as my guild is still working on Druushk.

I'm sorry but Druushk and Nexona are cake walks compaired to VS, we've got first time kills on both in less than 10 pulls and still haven't killed VS after 30+.

If VS was where Druushk or Nexona was that would be fine as everyone would need to kill him but at the moment a subset of classes are severely penalised by needing him for their myth updates.

That's funny actually. We did kill VS although it did take lots of pulls, but didn't take Druushk down yet.

I suppose once you get the right strat in VP it all becomes easy , but until you reach the level of coordination required then it's not easy. The first 2 names are on farming status and are quite easy, after that only time will tell .

VS was my second myth update, now on to last which is Hoshkar, after Druushk and Nexona .