possession

[pebyr]

tried a drachnid enthraller.  Used possess essence, and it hits with mind shock for about 300 to 500, while the same drachnid enthraller hits with mind shock for 2k.  Since both take 3 concentration slots, couldn't the dps of the "safe" pet be a little bit more?  I mean 10 to 25% of the dps of the charmed pet seems an excessive drop. I would expect some drop, since it only makes sense that the charmed pet with a limited time on it, and the chance of it turning on you should do more, but i would expect that a it do more to be worth while.Also, on a different note, the possess essence pet is still power draining.

[Jesdyr]

Wait .. possession is using Conc on test?  that is a change and actually means it will most likely not get used ever.

[Encantador]

I am certain this will get tested a lot. I know I will test it on a non-raid night. I did manage a quick test today. Using a couple of mobs in JW just by the KP zone line. The cats there are melee no arrow mobs, and as far as I can tell there is no difference between an essence and a charmed pet. Using M1 of each spell and a couple of goes with each, the unbuffed pet beat another of the same type and level with not much HP to spare.

Possess Essence seems to be unresistable, have no level restrictions, has no listed epic restrictions, and does not cause aggro when the 'copy' is made. Certainly if your only option is a melee pet I do not see why you would use charm.

At present I don't really see why this spell has been introduced. If the 'essences' are the same as charmed pets then why use charm? Is it to kill off breakable charm ?

[Sonorod]

Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:

Wait .. possession is using Conc on test?  that is a change and actually means it will most likely not get used ever.

JesDer, I think it's time to get out more.  Possession is changing along with quite a few spells in our arsenal.  It no longer possess a creature, giving you control of it, but makes a copy for you to control.  Similar to puppet master but not as a dumbfire.

 To be honest I was a bit underwhelmed with the things I was testing.  It's nice to know that we can have an even con pet when soloing in gray areas, but even against grays the damage output wasn't huge.  Our enhanced spells though might make up for this.

 Overall I'm looking forward to more testing!!

[Jesdyr]

Sonorod wrote:

Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:

Wait .. possession is using Conc on test?  that is a change and actually means it will most likely not get used ever.

JesDer, I think it's time to get out more.  Possession is changing along with quite a few spells in our arsenal. 

Really .. OMG .... Yes I know that.. but no where aside from this post has I heard possession being change to use 3 conc. If it uses 3 conc then "best case" it is used in place of charm while grouped but even then the Conc cost makes it questionable how often it will be used. As long as charm remains more powerfull there is no reason to use possession. The goal of making the change was to make the spell usefull. 3 Conc is a bit much .. I could understand 1 conc.

[Rijacki]

I'm sure the 3 concentration was to keep it from being used -with- charm, but there should be a different way to do that.  It would be nice to have the option of a pet in a group.  With 3 concentration, it's either buffs or pet. In a raid, that definitely means no pet.

[pebyr]

i think what happened, is that i got lucky in my choice of things to mess with.  The drachnid enthraller is a coercer mob.  Possess spirit is doing what its supposed to do as far as abilities go.  The possessed essence is using the same abilities as the charmed pet.  Problem is that the npc drachnid enthraller is still power draining.  This might mean redoing the npc abilities to not power drain.Regardless, the charmed pet was hitting with mind shock for an average of 2400 with an m1 charm.  The ad3 possession pet was hitting for 200 to 400.  This is an extreme drop in damage, even given the difference between m1 and ad3.   So I think we need to check out caster pets.  My bet is that is where we will see the biggest difference.

[pebyr]

tried a mistgoblin shaman, and it was hitting with vile imprecation for about 400 a hit.  I then charmed a mistgoblin shaman, and that was hitting for 4k with vile imprecation, and also using hadouken for 2k hits.  That's a huge difference in dps.  Doesn't seem to be much difference between melee charmed pets and possessed essences, but when it comes to casters, its monstrous.Now mind you, there should be some discrepancy, given i'm using ad3 possession, and m1 dictate.  But since the melee pets dont show much difference, i dont think that can account for such a huge drop.

[Wrapye]

I was getting about 600 a hit from a 'possessed' firedrake sentry in VP (M1 Possession).  That is based on a level 85x4 mob.  Granted, I wouldn't normally be able to charm that mob, but the clone was not worth using at all.  Period.I'd much rather deal with the risks of charm breaking over using Possess Essence.  It is a fluff spell, just as much as the original version.  Not only is it not worthwhile casting, the effect is distinctly illusionist-flavored, not coercer.  This one needs to go back to the drawing board.

[Grimlux]

Wrapye wrote:

I was getting about 600 a hit from a 'possessed' firedrake sentry in VP (M1 Possession).  That is based on a level 85x4 mob.  Granted, I wouldn't normally be able to charm that mob, but the clone was not worth using at all.  Period.I'd much rather deal with the risks of charm breaking over using Possess Essence.  It is a fluff spell, just as much as the original version.  Not only is it not worthwhile casting, the effect is distinctly illusionist-flavored, not coercer.  This one needs to go back to the drawing board.

Actually I found it to be opposite. Its a useful spell to have inside a raid instance where you cannot normally charm a pet. So far the pet has a huge hit point pool which will allow it to take a lot of damage. The damage output, for what it is isnt terrible. I had a skyfire drake possessed and its average hit was between 3-500 damage every 2-3 seconds. He's a DoT. The only thing I do not like is the hefty concentration cost. The charm pet and possess minion have no noticeable DPS difference. Zilch.

[Wrapye]

Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:

Wrapye wrote:

I was getting about 600 a hit from a 'possessed' firedrake sentry in VP (M1 Possession).  That is based on a level 85x4 mob.  Granted, I wouldn't normally be able to charm that mob, but the clone was not worth using at all.  Period.I'd much rather deal with the risks of charm breaking over using Possess Essence.  It is a fluff spell, just as much as the original version.  Not only is it not worthwhile casting, the effect is distinctly illusionist-flavored, not coercer.  This one needs to go back to the drawing board.

Actually I found it to be opposite. Its a useful spell to have inside a raid instance where you cannot normally charm a pet. So far the pet has a huge hit point pool which will allow it to take a lot of damage. The damage output, for what it is isnt terrible. I had a skyfire drake possessed and its average hit was between 3-500 damage every 2-3 seconds. He's a DoT. The only thing I do not like is the hefty concentration cost. The charm pet and possess minion have no noticeable DPS difference. Zilch.

The concentration cost is part of the equation.  You can't say "It is a useful spell, if it weren't for the concentration cost".  The concentration cost is part of what is making it a useless spell.  And it still doesn't touch the fact that this is just a modification of the illusionist Personae spell (see other post in this forum about the Insidious Robe and Possess Essence) and not a coercer spell.  Many of the changes that I am seeing in this update are just taking things from the illusionist, giving them a slight twist, and calling it a coercer spell.  Illusionists and coercer have enough spells in common, we don't need to make even more of them the same.And before someone mentions it, changing the mythical to allow zero-concentration casting of Possess Essence is not a solution.  That is saying that a handful of coercers on a server are able to make decent use of the spell, while all the other level 65+ coercer are left with a useless fluff spell.

[Jesdyr]

Wrapye wrote:

The concentration cost is part of the equation.  You can't say "It is a useful spell, if it weren't for the concentration cost".  The concentration cost is part of what is making it a useless spell. 

I am happy to see other people agreeing on this. Replacing a useless spell with a useless spell doesn't do much. While overall I am happy to see some changes being made I find some of them to be poorly thought out. But this isn't live yet and lets hope they listen to the feedback

[ShadowMunkie]

Possess Essence in its current form on Test, is a joke. It does worse damage than Puppetmaster is doing on LIVE right this second and costs 3 concentration slots. It either needs to remove concentration slot or increase damage output by a couple thousand to even think about using it in raids/group settings.

[Melodar]

Using possession a possessed mob hit for about 500. Fighting the exact same mob a charmed mob hit for 1100. Double the dmge for a charmed mob over the essence. We get personae tweaked and dumbed down as our essence claiming to be a new spell. Hitting for 1/2 the dmge of a charm is ridiculous. Prior to this change possession could be used when charm was up now they are mutually exclusive it is one or the other. If the possessed mob was in addition to the charmed then thevery low dps would be understandable but as it is on it's own it is a joke. Maybe some raiders will like it but who cares the vast majority of us aren't raiders and want a pet worth a darn in normal pve. Leaving possession at 3 conc slots you are essentially eliminating the charm line. While you have nerfed it to no end it is still usefull and the idea behind this change was to make possession useful. Well all I see you doing is making a useless (in 99% of situations) spell still useless and gimped. Why on earth would you use this over a charmed pet? (I don't care about raids) As you have it set up it is either possession OR charm so congratulations on trying to make a gimped spell replace the main spell line of the coercer.

[pebyr]

the simple answer is that you wouldn't use it over a charmed slot.  You wouldn't use it in a raid, for the same reason that you rarely see illusionists using their pets in a raid zone.  The 3 concentration slots can be used for 3 peaceful links, which can keep 3 dps alive and do far more dps than the pet can do.  The reason the illusionists mythical took away the 3 conc slots was so that they could use it in a raid. The only use i can see for possession is in a group situation.  There its not horrible.  I would use it when i was in Vaults say with a group that made it unnecessary to mez.  Then it would be a question of why not.  It can still fire your reactives, and does have some use.  But over all, its not what we hoped for, but it maybe what we can expect given what they are doing in other places to our dps.

[Cawti]

Did some preliminary testing without my parser running last night.I used the new Posess Essence and Charm on a the grindlhoofs in JW.  Tried it on even (80) con mobs.  A charmed level 80 grindlehoof sent up against another level 80 grindlehoof would defeat it's opponent and still have 50% health left.  The Posessed grindlhoof given the same task would run a relatively fair fight, but the mob would eventually kill it.  Perhaps a DPS buffed grindlehoof would live?  I also Posessed some of my favorite casters that live around the docks in JW.  I would send them up against a mob, unbuffed, wait a second or so, and then cast root.  If the root was resisted they invariably would run after me.  IE.  the possessed mob does not even generate enough aggro to keep a mob off me when all I did was *fail* to cast root.So, I'm pretty underwhelmed so far by the new spell.  I can see it's uses perhaps in green or lower con zones, where we'd at least have an even con pet, but I'd be laughed out of the room if I tried to use this in a group or raid instead of buffing other people.  It doesn't seem to do nearly enough DPS for that.  I plan on testing it a little more though.

[Geothe]

They should make it cost like 1 conc slot.BUT

Make it so that it wont cast if you already have a charmed pet.And keep the lower damage than charmed the same.The lower Conc slot cost would justify the lower damage.

Preventing casting while a mob is already charmed would prevent a pile o' pets.

This way, it would allow a raiding coercer to get a weak pet in a zone, and not use up all their conc slots.Also, would let soloing/group Coercers choose between having a weaker mob that wont break charm, and having a couple more slots for buffs,  vs a stronger mob that may break and takes up more conc slots.

[Alfgand]

Geothe wrote:

They should make it cost like 1 conc slot.BUT

Make it so that it wont cast if you already have a charmed pet.And keep the lower damage than charmed the same.The lower Conc slot cost would justify the lower damage.

Preventing casting while a mob is already charmed would prevent a pile o' pets.

This way, it would allow a raiding coercer to get a weak pet in a zone, and not use up all their conc slots.Also, would let soloing/group Coercers choose between having a weaker mob that wont break charm, and having a couple more slots for buffs,  vs a stronger mob that may break and takes up more conc slots.

I agree 100 percent.

Would this have to be changed for Illusionists also, since this is basically the same as Personae spell?

We want to be as useful and be able to do the same DPS as Illusionists. We don't want to nerf them or outdo them. We need to be equal but different.

[Jesdyr]

Svenghali@Mistmoore wrote:

Would this have to be changed for Illusionists also, since this is basically the same as Personae spell?

Not having Stats on the Illy personae, I would so No .. Possess essence should be weaker than Personae and only cost 1 conc. Personae is more in line with what Charm is and should remain at 3 conc (unless you get your Illy Mythical).

[Rijacki]

Svenghali@Mistmoore wrote:

Geothe wrote:

They should make it cost like 1 conc slot.BUT

Make it so that it wont cast if you already have a charmed pet.And keep the lower damage than charmed the same.The lower Conc slot cost would justify the lower damage.

Preventing casting while a mob is already charmed would prevent a pile o' pets.

This way, it would allow a raiding coercer to get a weak pet in a zone, and not use up all their conc slots.Also, would let soloing/group Coercers choose between having a weaker mob that wont break charm, and having a couple more slots for buffs,  vs a stronger mob that may break and takes up more conc slots.

I agree 100 percent.

Would this have to be changed for Illusionists also, since this is basically the same as Personae spell?

We want to be as useful and be able to do the same DPS as Illusionists. We don't want to nerf them or outdo them. We need to be equal but different.

Aside from the fact the Illusionist mythical gives them a concentrationless pet....I think both the personae and the possess essence should have a decrease in the number of concentration (even just a reduction of 1 concentration). Possess should be not be castable while the coercer has a charmed pet, but not because of the concentration cost.Oh.. a side note on appearance.  I was disappointed that the possessed essence wasn't ghostly or otherwise looked any different than the thing it was ripped from.  It would be so much more.. umm.. aesthetically pleasing if it looked more like an essence, a spirit, at least in my mind NOTE: When you compare the damage of possess vs charm, not only note the quality level of your possess and charm but also if it's a melee pet vs a mage pet.  There seems to be a massive difference between them.

[KillSlow]

poss and person are not the same and no where near the same spell

because

person clones the illy, poss lets you pick your target

i think with its current damage the conc slots needs to be reduced

and person isnt charm again for the same fact as above, depending on your pet decides your dps where person is flat always the same

risk is the way of life

[Maroger]

The necro gets a super duper pet and it used only 1 COncentration. Coercers get junk and its nerfed and requires 3 concentation - Makes no Sense.

I think Developers need to go to EQLIVE and take a hard look at the old Enchanters and see how their Charm worked. The current charm should be equal to the CHam in EQLIVE  or else reduce the concentraton. Requiring 3 Concentration for a nerfed pet that breaks is ridiculous and demonstrates no design planning about the class.

It doesn't seem that we are getting as much LOVE as the usual NERF .

[Geothe]

" The necro gets a super duper pet and it used only 1 COncentration. Coercers get junk and its nerfed and requires 3 concentation - Makes no Sense".

 I really have to LOL at this statement.Necros (and Conjies) are centered around their pets.  If they run with no pet, they are crippling their abilities.Chanters are not centered around their pets at all.  Their pets are more optional depending on the play style of the person.  Hence, the big difference in conc slot cost.

[KillSlow]

i am fine with charm being 3 slots but possess shouldnt be 3, because i am going to pick to charm the mob over possess 95% of the time and i would almost never get to use it on raids, our buffs are and will be too good not to use after the changes

i think the only change that needs to be done is reduce the conc slots on it, 2 at the least, i think 1 would be too much to ask for, and make it share timer with charm so only one can be up

[AdamWest007]

Maroger wrote:

The necro gets a super duper pet and it used only 1 COncentration. Coercers get junk and its nerfed and requires 3 concentation - Makes no Sense.

I think Developers need to go to EQLIVE and take a hard look at the old Enchanters and see how their Charm worked. The current charm should be equal to the CHam in EQLIVE  or else reduce the concentraton. Requiring 3 Concentration for a nerfed pet that breaks is ridiculous and demonstrates no design planning about the class.

It doesn't seem that we are getting as much LOVE as the usual NERF .

I was going to stay out of this thread until I saw this post.  I think it is time you Coercers are educated regarding Necro/Conjy pets.

As a Necro, I can have both a charmed pet (Charm Undead) and a main Necro pet running simultaneously (let's put the issue of concentration slots aside for a moment).  Often while harvesting in the spider caves in KP, I'll have my scout pet out and one of the nearby undead mobs charmed.

Here is the deal: The level 68 charmed mob does as much and in some cases more damage as the level 80 M1 scout pet.  Read that sentence again...lv 68 vs. lv 80 mastered pet.  You guys have grown accustomed to using charmed pets, which are considerably more powerful than necro/conjy pets (notice I did not say "overpowered" as that is why they cost 3 conc. slots and can break, etc.). 

What this thread seems to be asking for is a permanent, non-breakable pet that does as much damage as the current pet in the charmed form.  Instead, what SoE has given you is a permanent pet on par with the necro/conjy pet.  You need to readjust your expectations of pets.  The other day my scout pet did a crit for a 2k damage, and I was like "wow, I've never seen that before".  Most of the time he hits for 200-500 dmg a pop.  This is your new pet. 

Now do you see why necros/conjies get so mad when ppl claim we can do great dps by just sending the pet in and going afk?    

(Having said that, your new pet should be one conc. slot, just like ours.)     

[PatcoDiMolla]

I m very happy most of changed things of coercer class.Posses Essence still worthless is hard tome making differenc about illu pets and possesed essence. But im sure illu will win.Not much different about which npc is a target when i posses. The possesed essence is far from my dream. Im not too happy about puppetmesters but puppet is far better as possessed essence.I thinked posses will work as a charmed pet Litle nerfed with original pet . but is not so... Becose we have no pet in epic instance. but this posses is not helo us... if i gave my concentration slot impetus on a meele healers is much better.I used a training wall to parse a new things. i cannot use aspell Hostage - is cannot work on . still dont find why?Even im happy with changes , but possesison. Not worth make any work to get an unusable spell again.Thanks for all ,and good work to u.ui.Still need a change to get thinking about to have a palce on my hotbar. I didnt want a hard pet even i have master one .but would like a litlle more than this if i pay 3 concentration for it least as charmed pet ( interesting thing charming and using a epic mob essence as pet but i cannot do that if is worthless)ui. still didnt try but can i posses a necromancer pet? and if yes what i will get? )u

[ShadowMunkie]

AdamWest007 wrote:

Maroger wrote:

The necro gets a super duper pet and it used only 1 COncentration. Coercers get junk and its nerfed and requires 3 concentation - Makes no Sense.

I think Developers need to go to EQLIVE and take a hard look at the old Enchanters and see how their Charm worked. The current charm should be equal to the CHam in EQLIVE  or else reduce the concentraton. Requiring 3 Concentration for a nerfed pet that breaks is ridiculous and demonstrates no design planning about the class.

It doesn't seem that we are getting as much LOVE as the usual NERF .

I was going to stay out of this thread until I saw this post.  I think it is time you Coercers are educated regarding Necro/Conjy pets.

As a Necro, I can have both a charmed pet (Charm Undead) and a main Necro pet running simultaneously (let's put the issue of concentration slots aside for a moment).  Often while harvesting in the spider caves in KP, I'll have my scout pet out and one of the nearby undead mobs charmed.

Here is the deal: The level 68 charmed mob does as much and in some cases more damage as the level 80 M1 scout pet.  Read that sentence again...lv 68 vs. lv 80 mastered pet.  You guys have grown accustomed to using charmed pets, which are considerably more powerful than necro/conjy pets (notice I did not say "overpowered" as that is why they cost 3 conc. slots and can break, etc.). 

What this thread seems to be asking for is a permanent, non-breakable pet that does as much damage as the current pet in the charmed form.  Instead, what SoE has given you is a permanent pet on par with the necro/conjy pet.  You need to readjust your expectations of pets.  The other day my scout pet did a crit for a 2k damage, and I was like "wow, I've never seen that before".  Most of the time he hits for 200-500 dmg a pop.  This is your new pet. 

Now do you see why necros/conjies get so mad when ppl claim we can do great dps by just sending the pet in and going afk?    

(Having said that, your new pet should be one conc. slot, just like ours.)     

That isn't the entire point of this thread, we are complaining that its useless to use in most cases even in solo where we can charm a mob. In groups/raids we would rather give up our own DPS in order to give out our buffs. Dehate and DPS mod plays a huge amount in groups and raids. A wizard that doesn't die and can still parse 8k-10k, we are one of the main reasons behind this, no tank could ever dream about keeping aggro from a wizard like that NOT EVER A PALADIN. We want more utility rather than a [Removed for Content] pet that is basically the same as the illusionist personae. Sure some people missed the entire concept of the spell, but its USELESS as it is now. "Possession" has more uses than this pet does.Personally instead of a pet that deals damage I'd like a pet that does different things. Buff the raid/group, debuff mobs, heal raid/group members even if its a temp pet that lasts for 1minute with a 2minute-3minute cooldown. Right now we use our abilities to charm a pet and it still can't heal us. Coercer's in general need more utility and less pets. We aren't a pet class, we never was a pet class, and I don't ever wanna hope/dream of the day that we become a pet class. Summonersb are the real pet classes. Thats their glory, thats what they are good at.In bold is the exact utility that the pet needs to actually make it worth using. Coercer are among the gods of debuffs, for magical creatures. We literally have our own dispatch vs magical mitigation.

[Grimlux]

Mordok@Crushbone wrote:

That isn't the entire point of this thread, we are complaining that its useless to use in most cases even in solo where we can charm a mob. In groups/raids we would rather give up our own DPS in order to give out our buffs. Dehate and DPS mod plays a huge amount in groups and raids. A wizard that doesn't die and can still parse 8k-10k, we are one of the main reasons behind this, no tank could ever dream about keeping aggro from a wizard like that NOT EVER A PALADIN. We want more utility rather than a [I cannot control my vocabulary] pet that is basically the same as the illusionist personae. Sure some people missed the entire concept of the spell, but its USELESS as it is now. "Possession" has more uses than this pet does.Personally instead of a pet that deals damage I'd like a pet that does different things. Buff the raid/group, debuff mobs, heal raid/group members even if its a temp pet that lasts for 1minute with a 2minute-3minute cooldown. Right now we use our abilities to charm a pet and it still can't heal us. Coercer's in general need more utility and less pets. We aren't a pet class, we never was a pet class, and I don't ever wanna hope/dream of the day that we become a pet class. Summonersb are the real pet classes. Thats their glory, thats what they are good at.In bold is the exact utility that the pet needs to actually make it worth using. Coercer are among the gods of debuffs, for magical creatures. We literally have our own dispatch vs magical mitigation.

Well yes and no... Our DPS buff super sucks, and we can live without our group power buff.  I rarely dehate anyone, as everyone I raid with does a decent job with their own hate management. What sucks is that what I would LOVE to be able to have a possessed minion, buff my tank with DPS, and have both my group buffs up. I can live w/out the rest personally. If Aeralik would be so kind as to just Make Charm and Possession "Stances" then this would clear up the whole issue, and only cost us 1 concentration. <3

[chily]

The new possession has not much use for me. A charmed pet does more dmg then a possessed one, even my autoattack with str line and dps buff on me does more dmg then a possessed one by the look of it. If the possessed pet would need 0 Conc slot and still doesn't stack with charm it would really usefull at least.

[Terreciel]

I truly don't understand why coercers think that it's ok for an illusionist personae to take 3 concentration slots but not ok for a coercer pet to. Illusionist pets aren't super damage output. They are great for soloing but in raids/groups, illusionists are more useful using those concentration slots for buffs. Why should coercers get a pet + buffs too?

Coercers might need fixing and I understand that you don't want to be just like illusionists. But taking away concentration for possession would make coercers far more powerful than illusionists. These are both enchanter classes; they should be comparable. Not identical, but at least similar in what they can bring to a group/raid.