Too little, too late?

[Thunderthyze]

http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=419270

"Just as note, we are trying to include a lot more multiple mob encounters through out the content for the coming expansion. Get ready for lots of single group action."

This is a quote from Kander (EQ2 Dev). My question is......"Is it too little too late"?

 Remember when LoTHRO was released and we were told it was going to spell the death of EQ2? I registered barely a blip in server load. Vanguard? EQ2 was going to be supplanted, but again, notwithstanding the horrendous launch of that product EQ2 barely missed a step.

What's the difference today after AoC's release? Well, for one player numbers are WAY down. Reason? I believe EQ2 alienated their core player base with the solo oriented RoK release. When LoTRO and Vanguard were released EQ2 was a strong game. Today it is a fractured community with much less grouping going on.

Hopefully SOE have finally recognised this and Kander's comment is a hint of a return to the "old ways" of promoting grouping as a viable play style. After the initial 30 day free trial of AoC I suggest we will see many people returning as the community over there is very "WoWish" and the game is a little shallow and linear for my liking. The danger is however the other two shadows on the horizon. WAR and Darkfall. If either of these are released prior to the next expansion, or that expansion fails to live up to the hype then I fear for our game here.

[Odys]

Storm is a ghost town. I stopped to play my main and played low levels reroll since the solo path to 80was simply not my style.Rok also affected the pre 70 game since people stopped to go in most of the old high end instancesince ROK gear turned out to be so much better. I got lucky once to find a group of old players who wanted to do a KOS instance cruise but most people don;t do that. Last the tradeskill revamp affected all the levelling phase, there is no place now where you can find something half as good as master crafted gear. Those 3 facts killed the group game and are killing the game. It's quite urgent to scale the difficulty and the rewards of all the pre ROK  instances.

[Alienor]

omg sky is falling. Burn out syndrome?

[dawy]

Theres little doubt in my mind they got the balance between solo/group work wildly wrong in ROK we can but hope they included everyone for the forthcoming expansion,one of EQ2's greatest strenghs was the ability to solo and quest and grind if you so preferred ROK took the last 2 options out of the game and IMO made it much poorer as a result.

[Thunderthyze]

Alienor wrote:

omg sky is falling. Burn out syndrome?

Hardly, I'm still playing regularly. I'm just reporting my experience from the Runnyeye server. Hard to find groups, hard to get groups going, guild rosters depleted, very few casual raids going on beyond the established raid guilds.

Obviously SOE are seeing the problem too, hence:

http://livinglegacy.station.sony.co...st2-calendar.vm

[Pogopuschel]

Alienor wrote:

omg sky is falling. Burn out syndrome?

Remember the time when issuing valid concerns was not referred to as "falling sky" or "going all emo"? It's not been that long I thought...

[Karlen]

>>>>one of EQ2's greatest strenghs was the ability to solo and quest and grind if you so preferred ROK took the last 2 options out of the game<<

[Noaani]

LotR-O had a different target audiance than EQ2, so it hardly pulled any players from this game. That game was more focused on social aspects of MMOs, and less on combat. It was, and still is, a great game to go play with a bunch of friends, but it doesn't have the mechanics depth that EQ2 has.

Vanguard on the other hand just sucked. If it had have lived up to its promises, it would have made a significant dent in EQ2 population. The few days after it came out were dead, and post AoC release has reminded me very much of those few days. After that though, most people realised it was an unfinished game and left.

AoC is aimed at people that take playing MMOs as a serious passtime, which is a portion of the playerbase EQ2 no longer has the content to provide for. Should SoE attempt to do so it would require a lot more than 2 new heroic instances, though that is a start. It would require a total revamp of the mitigation/avoidance system and probably spell/melee DPS systems and healing in order to give those players an avenue to progress to. Basically it would amount to either a total combat revamp similar to LU#13, or the addition of a totally new progression path that would only be avalible in harder areas of the game (much like top end loot is only avalible in harder areas of the game, mostly). 

It would also require the addition of enough content to keep serious players happy, including solo group and raid encounters. Players want to be able to log in each day and do something worthwhile for their main character that they have not done in a while. Run an instance that you have not had the opportunity to do in a week, because you have been busy with other things in game. Basically, they would need to have about 10 hours of solo unique content, 40 - 50 hours worth of unique heroic content and 20 - 30 hours of unique raid content. As it stands now we have less than 2 hours of unique solo content (overland names), about 15 hours of heroic content (KC, Chardok, Sebilis, CoK, Vaults, MC, Chelsith and CoA), and about 10 - 15 hours of raid content. So, the amount of actual content would need to double, while retaining (regaining may be a better word) a sence of accomplishment, progression and most importantly, fun (something missing from far too many RoK raid encounters).

For people that think this will simply blow over, and means nothing, there have already been several top end guilds quit this game for AoC, which means about 50 accounts, and several thousand hours of player time that server is now missing. People that used to group with the alts of that guild (whether they knew it or not) no longer have those characters to group with, or to purchase items from, or to sell items too. Every server will have lost hundreds of players, and many people that regularly do pick up groups are aware of this. There are simply less people online atm to do anything with.

Some of them may come back, most of the ones that left post RoK will not.

[Calris]

Oh, for frack's sake. The decline, and it's not as serious as you're making out ( In fact, as I understand it's actually recovering a bit ), has little to nothing to do with the game becoming more solo friendly. If anything that's HELPING the game.

[Drewz]

Wow, your guild must be the uberest if there's only 15 hours worth of raid content.  I would think sometimes it takes that long just to figure out one raid zone for the first time.Raid Content=100s of hours

[Espyderman]

Heres what i think is wrong with the game:

New Zones lack Instances for grouping. Its not hard to find players of your level on, what is hard is giving them a good reason to group with other players. Unless your level 76-80 in ROK, Instances are lacking.

Up the Loot! Sorry but loot drops are seldom and players get more junk then useful items, if grouped up we were to get more chest drops it would encourage socializing.

Update Old Zones...Add Instances to Old Zone for Higher Level Players...Since we are lacking in instances and not all can go into the new expansion hows about adding new instances to existing zones, bringing higher level players back to old zones to help 'cleanse' the instance of baddies. To me this would make an interesting game development.

 Other then that i think the game is fine, instances would be the biggest thing i can see that could add to this game.

[liveja]

Stavros@The Bazaar wrote:

Update Old Zones...Add Instances to Old Zone for Higher Level Players

Note the new instance coming to Runnyeye with the next GU. I'm hoping this might be preludes to similar instances coming for Perm, Sol's Eye, & CT.

As for loot, the issue in the ROK dungeons is not the amount of loot you get. Every time I run COA, for example, my group gets absolutely flooded with chests. It's like every other trash mob is dropping an Adept, & practically every named is dropping Ornate. The problem, as I see it, is the quality of the loot. Most of it seems like it was deliberately designed for transmuting rather than as upgrades.

I'm very encouraged to read Kander's comments about group content in the upcoming expansion. Personally, I'd like to see the next expansion be 80%+ T6-T8 group content. A long, key-progression storyline moving through multiple dungeon zones would be excellent, especially if the bulk of it was single-group stuff.

[Zarador]

What's interesting is that I was thinking about the complaints about RoK last night.  The problem is NOT with the Solo content.  It's just about right, if not perfect.  A player should be able to take a solo route and get to where they should be in the game.The problem is with the LACK of group and high end content.  It's not that there is "too much" of one, but rather there is not enough of the other if that makes sense.  Personally, I enjoy solo and duo play avoiding the higher end instances and content, that's just me.  I found I was able to get decent (okay, great) upgrades to my gear, some nice AA's and level by doing the "standard content" frankly, as it should be. It's only obvious that the solo/quest content was there obly because of the lack of group/high end content.  It's a shame that this was not better balanced with additional content geared to the high end player.

[Valdaglerion]

Funny thing is we have been saying for months tehre is a serious lack of instances for 70-76 areas in Rok and have asked the devs to revamp the older areas with new levels of content and wholla -

they redo Runnyeye as a new instance...for 80+ /boggle

Thanks for the new 80 zone...now how about some 70-76 zones. Yeah, we appreciate the 71-79 masters being added in there but seriously, we would like to see some content for 70-76 instances for Rok.

And up the mob xp already. Good lord, you guys have nerfed quest xp 3 times since Rok release and mob xp sucks for those that want to kill to level up alts and such. Sure, questing is fun, the FIRST time.

[feldon30]

Kunark has been out how long? And where is everyone? Echoes of Faydwer and Kingdom of Sky instances.

[Malchore]

Well I'll toss my 2 cp.

People will choose the path that offers the most reward for the least effort.  That's human nature.  The reason no one groups at levels 1-70 is because soloing is both the QUICKEST way to level, as well as the most rewarding.  That's right - solo play is more rewarding than group play.  Remember that earning XP (both adventure and AA xp) is also a reward for your efforts.  It means you are advancing.

There are few heroic quests compared to the number of solo quests.  An entire dungeon zone might have 10-15 quests and it often requires two or three trips to complete all those quests (often with lockouts.)  Heroic quests reward the same amount of xp and AA exp as solo quests.  You can knock out 10-15 solo quests in a few hours (depending on your class) and DON'T have to deal with the hassle of finding a group for all those hours.  And as for the gear and coin, heroic quests might have a No-Trade Legendary reward at the end of the quest series (that you might be able to use, for a few levels before it's upgraded with better Treasured.)  There is also a chance that a few legendary items drop and maybe 4-5 Master I (that will not be for your class) that you can sell, assuming you win the loot roll.  Point being, assuming you are lucky with the Loot RNG, whatever rewards you get will be sold.

If SOE really cares about retaining customers (and I don't think they do...) they'll have to dramatically scale up the adventure xp and AA reward for completing a heroic quest in order to make it a viable alternative to solo questing.

And as for 70 - 80, well that's just forced soloing.  There is no viable alternative way to advance in RoK without doing 300+ solo quests.

However I really think the need for AA xp also has a big influence on the preference for solo.  AAs are important, and completing quests are the best way to gain AA xp.  If all you did was the few heroic quests and spend all your adventure levels in dungeons, you'd be way behind the curve with AAs.

[interstellarmatter]

Why would they want to add 70-74 zones?  Most of the older zones like Mistmoore and Unrest have 70-75 lvl mobs.  My 75 Assassin was running with a group in Unrest getting decent XP. 

It would be kind of silly to add new 70-75 zones.  Especially since most people don't spend months stuck at that lvl range.  Those who want to do the group route can still do KC, Unrest or various EoH instances pre 75.

[liveja]

interstellarmatter wrote:

Most of the older zones like Mistmoore and Unrest have 70-75 lvl mobs.

They do not, however, drop T8 loot, which is the real issue. Of course, that could be alleviated by revamping the loot tables, but the fact that the only T8 dungeon for those levels remains KC can't be so easily swept away.

It would be kind of silly to add new 70-75 zones.  Especially since most people don't spend months stuck at that lvl range.

I note they didn't follow that philosophy when ROK came out, since it included a brand-new 1-20 zone. I'm betting that when the next expansion comes out, there will be at least one 70-75 zone, if not more than one. Giving your players more choices as to where to gain their levels is more of a good thing than a bad one.

[interstellarmatter]

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

interstellarmatter wrote:

Most of the older zones like Mistmoore and Unrest have 70-75 lvl mobs.

They do not, however, drop T8 loot, which is the real issue. Of course, that could be alleviated by revamping the loot tables, but the fact that the only T8 dungeon for those levels remains KC can't be so easily swept away.

But that's not what the person asked for.  They wanted new 70-75 zones.  That's a far cry from having the loot tables revamped in the top end t7 zones.  Which is a much more viable solution.

[Malchore]

interstellarmatter wrote:

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

interstellarmatter wrote:

Most of the older zones like Mistmoore and Unrest have 70-75 lvl mobs.

They do not, however, drop T8 loot, which is the real issue. Of course, that could be alleviated by revamping the loot tables, but the fact that the only T8 dungeon for those levels remains KC can't be so easily swept away.

But that's not what the person asked for.  They wanted new 70-75 zones.  That's a far cry from having the loot tables revamped in the top end t7 zones.  Which is a much more viable solution.

OK, but now you're SUBTRACTING the number of T7 loot zones.  And many 75-79 Master I's dropped in those zones.  Where to get them now?

[liveja]

interstellarmatter wrote:

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

interstellarmatter wrote:

Most of the older zones like Mistmoore and Unrest have 70-75 lvl mobs.

They do not, however, drop T8 loot, which is the real issue. Of course, that could be alleviated by revamping the loot tables, but the fact that the only T8 dungeon for those levels remains KC can't be so easily swept away.

But that's not what the person asked for.  They wanted new 70-75 zones.  That's a far cry from having the loot tables revamped in the top end t7 zones.  Which is a much more viable solution.

Like I said tho, revamping the loot tables for KC isn't going to change two facts:

A. It's the ONLY T8 dungeon for that level, &

B. It's an open, public dungeon -- not an instance.

That is why people are asking for at least one new 70-75 T8 instance. I'd bet that one is coming, too. After all, there are certainly a few candidates from the old skool ROK. New instances could be added to the Mines of Nurga -- both Nurga & Droga were dungeons in EQ1; Kaesora & Dalnir's Crypt could be re-discovered; a new instance could be developed in KC for that level; & so on. The infrastructure is there, & IMHO the need is there as well.

[interstellarmatter]

If you say so, I still don't like the idea.

It would be easier to make heroic versions of t7 dungeons in which the loot tables are t8 and the mobs might be pumped up a bit.  Afterall, most of the mobs in places like Unrest are already in the 70s.

Doing my typical /who all last night found most of the players in the 70-80 range are mostly in the 75+ range.  It just seems to me that is where you would want to develop most of the new content for the tier.  Then again, I could be wrong.

[Brinelan]

Going back to the OP, You also have to remember it is also the summer slump.  Populations tend to go down this time of year.  Let's face it .. if you had the choice to go to a cookout/ bearch / concert etc, or play games all day what would you do?

[kenm]

Brinelan@Guk wrote:

 Let's face it .. if you had the choice to go to a cookout/ bearch / concert etc, or play games all day what would you do?

I'm not the OP, but out of all those... personally I'd play Age of Conan.

[Spyderbite]

Brinelan@Guk wrote:

Let's face it .. if you had the choice to go to a cookout/ bearch / concert etc, or play games all day what would you do?

Me thinks you over estimate the crowd you are addressing.

[Sedenten]

Brinelan@Guk wrote:

Going back to the OP, You also have to remember it is also the summer slump.  Populations tend to go down this time of year.  Let's face it .. if you had the choice to go to a cookout/ bearch / concert etc, or play games all day what would you do?

I'd go to a cookout, beach, or concert in Norrath!

[Odys]

Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:

Funny thing is we have been saying for months tehre is a serious lack of instances for 70-76 areas in Rok and have asked the devs to revamp the older areas with new levels of content and wholla -

they redo Runnyeye as a new instance...for 80+ /boggle

Thanks for the new 80 zone...now how about some 70-76 zones. Yeah, we appreciate the 71-79 masters being added in there but seriously, we would like to see some content for 70-76 instances for Rok.

And up the mob xp already. Good lord, you guys have nerfed quest xp 3 times since Rok release and mob xp sucks for those that want to kill to level up alts and such. Sure, questing is fun, the FIRST time.

Yes agreed. Weirdly i made two level doing a KOS instance tour (got lot of fun too) so it seems that xp from monsters in ROK is well below what you get in older areas. Funny to hear again that first comers to ROK got some advantages, those people always complain that encounters get nerfed down but they never mention others fact like loot being lowered or xp made smaller.Anyway in a MMPORPG you expect to be able to group and solo. Currently a new playerhave low opportunities to group since dungeons do not provide neither reward (exept may be aas) nor challenge. Taking the solo line highway to 80 is not very appealing, at least for me.

[Brinelan]

Kenman@Crushbone wrote:

Brinelan@Guk wrote:

 Let's face it .. if you had the choice to go to a cookout/ bearch / concert etc, or play games all day what would you do?

I'm not the OP, but out of all those... personally I'd play Age of Conan.

Eh, no interest in Conan personally, but a lot of people are heading over there for something new.  Between a new game launch, and summer populations are going to slump. 

[Re]

After playing AoC for the last few weeks I'm guessing people will be coming back.I am already very bored with it.  Sure the graphics/blood, mature rating are cool.  But the world is very small, they have very little working end game content to the point you get to level 50 (out of 80) and there isn't anything to do but grind mobs for exp.  So many features that were promised are either flat out broken or missing in action.  (City building isn't working, Battlekeeps, numerous tradeskills, PvP rewards/experience, bar brawls, and on and on) So I wouldn't worry too much about it.  And with leveling being so fast (made it to 50 with an average of only 2 hours a night over the last 2 weeks) I think people will be getting to that point where they no longer have anything to do.I would almost accuse Funcom of misleading its customers because during open beta you couldn't even leave the starting area (Tortage) because it is by far the most polished/fun part of the game.  But after doing it once or twice you never want to see that place again but since leveling is so linear you have no choice if you make alts you'll be doing the exact same things from there all the way to 80.  Not to mention all voice over work ends the second you leave the starting area.  Just a lot of issues and it seems to be only half done.  For a game that was in development for so long and was delayed numerous times that this was the finished product is surprising.

[Laiina]

It sounds like CoA is where Vanguard was when it got first released.

 Call me in a couple of years on it.