Defiler AA lines and Raiding

[Pistolviper]

Hey guys, I just came back to EQ2 after an extended hiatus and have been leveling my Defiler alot so I can get back into raiding (I am an idiot and got rid of my other toons when I went to try Vanguard). Anyhow I really like the Defiler class and I am having fun with it at level 52. I was just curious if I could get the opinions of some of the seasoned veteran Defilers or serious raiders as to what AA lines you guys reccomend I take for raiding... More the likely being a MT healer as the such.  Currently I am investing points in STR to get the doggie buffs and AoE avoid. And I was thinking Wis or AGI next... Any input would be appreciated -Hodges  52 Defiler Blackburrow

[Estean1]

I am a MT group defiler.  I currently am set up in the Wis and Str line.  The aoe immune and wards are still worth it on most mobs.  The Wis line has turned out to be quite useful to me after last patch. I can now wear the unrest buckler in case I get hit a time or two and also have my heal booster.  That booster also boosts your cannabalize if you have that in the EoF tree.  The MT LOVES me to cast the final spell in the Wis line on him at pulls. It boosts his dps and helps him keep aggro a little better with his spells hitting faster and refreshing faster and at a minute and a half I can usually get it on him most pulls.  I also like speeding up my own refresh times along with the stat buffs - an all around good line now.  Plus you get Wis!

As for EoF I went soul ward and cannabalize -  if you know how to use soul ward it will end up saving wipes for the raid countless times.  It takes practice to get good at it though.   And for cannabalize,  I don't use it every fight, but on long fights it is HUGE - I don't even have to worry about hearts and shards too much with that ability if at all.  I have good FT but still like the cannabalize - you can never get too much mana - only downside is that its a fairly long cast time -  but 20 second refresh!  Thats 14% mana every 20 seconds if you combine it with the Wis 2 effect. 

There you have my set up - I'm sure others have theirs set up different - take what you like and run with it . 

Gamble 70th Defiler -Butcherblock

Estean 70th Necromancer Butcherblock

[Besual]

Estean1 wrote:

...

As for EoF I went soul ward and cannabalize -  if you know how to use soul ward it will end up saving wipes for the raid countless times.  It takes practice to get good at it though.   And for cannabalize,  I don't use it every fight, but on long fights it is HUGE - I don't even have to worry about hearts and shards too much with that ability if at all.  I have good FT but still like the cannabalize - you can never get too much mana - only downside is that its a fairly long cast time -  but 20 second refresh!  Thats 14% mana every 20 seconds if you combine it with the Wis 2 effect. 

...

Except that the reuse timer on wis2 is 3(?) min. So it would be 14%-10%-10%10%....

[LordofLies001]

Besual wrote:

Estean1 wrote:

...

As for EoF I went soul ward and cannabalize -  if you know how to use soul ward it will end up saving wipes for the raid countless times.  It takes practice to get good at it though.   And for cannabalize,  I don't use it every fight, but on long fights it is HUGE - I don't even have to worry about hearts and shards too much with that ability if at all.  I have good FT but still like the cannabalize - you can never get too much mana - only downside is that its a fairly long cast time -  but 20 second refresh!  Thats 14% mana every 20 seconds if you combine it with the Wis 2 effect. 

...

Except that the reuse timer on wis2 is 3(?) min. So it would be 14%-10%-10%10%....

Nah, the re-use timer on Ritual (Wis 2) is 1 minute by default. If you get Wis 4 and max it you get an 8% reduction on spelltimers, plus add the Ring of the Four Winds to it (4 or 5% reduction on spell re-use timers) and it will be usable every 52/53 seconds. Ayur

[rakki]

The strength line is a waste imo for raiding... The dogs never up long enough, meaning aura of warding isn't procing, and the aoe proc is useless because chances are your dirge/warden/swash got that covered.. You wanna be a solid MT defiler, get max heal crits and wisdom for alacrity..

[Estean1]

I guess thats true on the timers.. 14% - 10 - 10 - 10  - 10 But who cares. I have the best power regen than any other healer in the MT group.   Besides 90 percent of the time even in mana intensive long fights I"m not going to the cannabalize well every 20 seconds.. you have to have time to ward, heal, debuff etc.  It seems to time nicely for me. 

[Janaka]

rakki wrote:

The strength line is a waste imo for raiding... The dogs never up long enough, meaning aura of warding isn't procing, and the aoe proc is useless because chances are your dirge/warden/swash got that covered.. You wanna be a solid MT defiler, get max heal crits and wisdom for alacrity..

The STR line and Aura of Warding is still the most powerful line.   If you can't keep your dog alive you are doing something wrong.     Multiple top raiding defilers keep their dogs alive on contested fights and Mayong all the time.    It's mostly about positioning to avoid ripostes.

Read the defiler forums on eq2flames.com for more info.

 My vote is STR/WIS for the tough fights.

[RustyB]

oh there is no doubt in my mind  for a raiding Defiler it's STR / WIS all the way.  Before the last LU  you actually had choices..  but now  since shaman aa revamp   they pretty much made WIS a must have  imo. 

the thing with STR line..  It's a great means of extra warding on your group plus the added bonus of AoE avoid proc. I remeber reading somewhere that in the average fight  that little guy  can ward for [I cannot control my vocabulary] near 20% oh our total HPS for encounter.  I just have to pay attention to what going on from start to finish in whichever encounter.  If you have a tank who can hold aggro and rarely has mobs turn  then there is no reason why the dog should die...  The second the tank loses aggro  or mobs add  you need to have that pet chill for a few  let the encounter settle and just continue..  but even then  it's not always needed.

Peeps have complained about about the dog since it was introduced in KoS.  The only real problem I had with the dog before the Last LU was the fact that if he does die  which honestly wasn't too often   you would have to cast him which takes 7 secs (in a tough fight this is risky business)  then you would have to cast he's AoE avoid, then his ward proc, then whatever else he had.   Now it's just the one cast  which still is long, but hey  other than the 5% drop on the aoe avoid proc  I believe they actually improved the STR line.

[Decad]

rakki wrote:

The strength line is a waste imo for raiding... The dogs never up long enough, meaning aura of warding isn't procing, and the aoe proc is useless because chances are your dirge/warden/swash got that covered.. You wanna be a solid MT defiler, get max heal crits and wisdom for alacrity..

The only times I lost Dogdog in labs or lyceum the past few weeks with my guild's raids have been in lyceum versus the eyeball guy, and in labs versus vyemm. 

I have absolutely no problem keeping the dog alive. I rarely have to heal him or ward him. All I do is click off the two auto-attack options in the pet window. Keeps the dog from attacking mobs. Works wonders.

edit: wanted to add that although I turn off the auto-attacks, I still do send him in to assist on pretty much every fight.

[Sina]

AGI + WIS is a very good spec.

Pet AA is for Mystics

[VizP]

Yes Agi+Wis is very powerful - you get both the heal crit increase PLUS ritual - the result is stupendous actually. I mean what does my sacrificial heal ritualised and critted look like? Thats one mother of a heal Add to that ritualised cannabalise/force cannablise etc. Then you have the other boosts etc... I am personally Agi-Int but I plan to move from the Int line because I dont think Ill be soloing much for which the INT line really is great. Raiders really should be going down Str/Wis, Agi/Wis or Agi/Int.

[Morthore]

Aura of Warding will heal 20x what the heal crit does.  Go to eq2flames and check out the parse on the defiler forums.

[Haciv]

Fernswiggle@Crushbone wrote:

Aura of Warding will heal 20x what the heal crit does.  Go to eq2flames and check out the parse on the defiler forums.

Aura of Warding heals for 0 when your dog dies to riposte

[Sina]

Eq2flames?

Ok lets take an example from the forums.

Originally Posted by Ipum

gonna do this on a 8 minute timer, as that is the time on the parse i have with my dog, with no proc enchances that would normally be in the mt group and no haste buff as i forgot to put it up Str Line dog proced 53 times 53x445 = 23585 additional heals Agi Line Alone over 8 minutes at 15% crits for group wards you get 4 crits at 505 additional per crit for 2020 additional heals over 8 minutes at 15% crits for single wards you get 9 crits at 270 additional per crit for a total of 2430 for a total of 4450 additional heals Agi Line + New Wis Line over 8 minutes at 15% crits for group wards you still get 4 crits (only 2 additional wards) at 505 additional per crit for 2020 additional heals over 8 minutes at 15% crits for single wards you get 10 crits at 270 additional per crit at a total of 2700 for a total additional of 4720 so yeah, str wins

Sorry but if I am reading this I just can say: n00b!!!

This guy has zero idea of maths.

He compares a 100% performance of a pet with a defiler that doesn't use his full capacity of heals - as he could.

Because the comparison wasn't really correct this way - I took some time and calculated the real amounts.

I took his parsing as pet statistics - trusting him that the numbers are correct.

According to that we would have 23.585 additional healing from STR and WIS line.

Now to calculate the AGI and WIS lines you first have to find out how much you could heal in 8 minutes. To achieve this I made a statistic about the timers.

I rounded up the timers to make it easier - meaning SingleWard Reuse set to 6 seconds (instead of 5.6 seconds) etc.

After that I filled in the heals for the complete 8 minutes leaving out a few seconds in which I can't do anything.

The Result was the following:

Group Wards: 24 from which 3.8 were criticals

Single Wards: 24 from which 3.8 were criticals

Group Heals: 38 from which 6 were criticals

Sacrifical: 28 from which 4.5 were criticals

Putrid: 30 from which 4.8 were criticals

and this results in an additional heal amount of 24.875.

Summary:

The question is if you should waste your time to keep your stupid dog pet alive, or if you should concentrate to keep the tank and his group alive.

And in addition heal criticals also have an effect on Manaheals.

[Besual]

Sinala wrote:

Eq2flames?

Ok lets take an example from the forums.

Originally Posted by Ipum

gonna do this on a 8 minute timer, as that is the time on the parse i have with my dog, with no proc enchances that would normally be in the mt group and no haste buff as i forgot to put it up Str Line dog proced 53 times 53x445 = 23585 additional heals Agi Line Alone over 8 minutes at 15% crits for group wards you get 4 crits at 505 additional per crit for 2020 additional heals over 8 minutes at 15% crits for single wards you get 9 crits at 270 additional per crit for a total of 2430 for a total of 4450 additional heals Agi Line + New Wis Line over 8 minutes at 15% crits for group wards you still get 4 crits (only 2 additional wards) at 505 additional per crit for 2020 additional heals over 8 minutes at 15% crits for single wards you get 10 crits at 270 additional per crit at a total of 2700 for a total additional of 4720 so yeah, str wins

Sorry but if I am reading this I just can say: n00b!!!

This guy has zero idea of maths.

He compares a 100% performance of a pet with a defiler that doesn't use his full capacity of heals - as he could.

Because the comparison wasn't really correct this way - I took some time and calculated the real amounts.

I took his parsing as pet statistics - trusting him that the numbers are correct.

According to that we would have 23.585 additional healing from STR and WIS line.

Now to calculate the AGI and WIS lines you first have to find out how much you could heal in 8 minutes. To achieve this I made a statistic about the timers.

I rounded up the timers to make it easier - meaning SingleWard Reuse set to 6 seconds (instead of 5.6 seconds) etc.

After that I filled in the heals for the complete 8 minutes leaving out a few seconds in which I can't do anything.

The Result was the following:

Group Wards: 24 from which 3.8 were criticals

Single Wards: 24 from which 3.8 were criticals

Group Heals: 38 from which 6 were criticals

Sacrifical: 28 from which 4.5 were criticals

Putrid: 30 from which 4.8 were criticals

and this results in an additional heal amount of 24.875.

Summary:

The question is if you should waste your time to keep your stupid dog pet alive, or if you should concentrate to keep the tank and his group alive.

And in addition heal criticals also have an effect on Manaheals.

His post based on a parse and added the bonus of the AA lines to this. You do the math of the theoretical most optimized casting of healing spells. Yeah, he is the nOOb. Edit: And when we go to the math Ipum forgot the doggy procs a ward on each group member. So it is 23585 x6 = 141510.

[Crazywack]

Proper positioning keeps your dog alive.  Its simple.  Not much more to be said about it.

[Falc61881]

Haciv wrote:

Fernswiggle@Crushbone wrote:

Aura of Warding will heal 20x what the heal crit does.  Go to eq2flames and check out the parse on the defiler forums.

Aura of Warding heals for 0 when your dog dies to riposte

Then stop sucking and dont let it die to riposte.

[Falc61881]

Haciv wrote:

Fernswiggle@Crushbone wrote:

Aura of Warding will heal 20x what the heal crit does.  Go to eq2flames and check out the parse on the defiler forums.

Aura of Warding heals for 0 when your dog dies to riposte

Then stop sucking and dont let it die to riposte.

[knightofround]

Aura of Warding beats out Heal Crits by far. A critical ward increases the amount by +15%. If you have 10% heal crits, the overall increase in HPS is 0.15 * 0.1 = 0.015.  So you're looking at a 1.5%  increase in HPS. That's not even considering the extra wards you can get in now with the reduced recast timers. Whereas Aura of Warding easily accounts for 4-10% of my heals ZW, depending upon the zone.

[SorrySonOfA]

My little defiler alt is giving me some confusion on AAs.  He's at 69 now and 90AAs.  He has completed Str, Agi, the Soulward line, and the Hexation line.  I nearly always forget to use Hexation and haven't been overly impressed with it when I have.  I'd like to take the Cannibalize line instead of Hexation.

I've noticed the Cannibalize line seems to overlap spells with the Soul ward line.  If I have points in either Enhance:Voice of Ancestors, or Enhance: Erie Avenger will it count towards both lines?  It's not that big of a deal to me because I can easily see what I'd want to spend 20 pts on in the Cannibalize line otherwise. 

I'm really just curious about ways to use my points in the Defiler lines.  I love alot of the stuff leading up to Soulward, but hate rendering myself into that fragile of a condition.  I don't use the spells enough in the curseweaving line to warrant that line.

My defiler was brought up as the healer of a 2 box combo.  Now that he's nearly 70, I'll be grouping with him without the other box, and ocassionally raiding with him when we're without a shaman.  Thus, I intend for him to do a good job of warding and debuffing, but I still want him to be fun if I'm just grouping.  Odds are, he'll probably never have to solo at all.

[Excalibre33]

Each enhancement says which line it is for in the description. The cross connects just allow you to unlock the next tier using different lines.

[Kimage]

The Flames forum really has a great set up. The Forum leader there has done a great job on condensing down some of the info and keeping it up to date.

The following is what she has on the consolidated section.

 Achievements KoS AAs <== Achievment Calculator <== Ritual & power return guide <== EoF AAs <== Spells Defiler spell list <== Macros <== Misc World wide channel <== Plant guide <==

There is also a great discussion regarding RoA you may wish to check out.

[RustyB]

Besual wrote:

Sinala wrote:

Eq2flames?

Ok lets take an example from the forums.

Originally Posted by Ipum

gonna do this on a 8 minute timer, as that is the time on the parse i have with my dog, with no proc enchances that would normally be in the mt group and no haste buff as i forgot to put it up Str Line dog proced 53 times 53x445 = 23585 additional heals Agi Line Alone over 8 minutes at 15% crits for group wards you get 4 crits at 505 additional per crit for 2020 additional heals over 8 minutes at 15% crits for single wards you get 9 crits at 270 additional per crit for a total of 2430 for a total of 4450 additional heals Agi Line + New Wis Line over 8 minutes at 15% crits for group wards you still get 4 crits (only 2 additional wards) at 505 additional per crit for 2020 additional heals over 8 minutes at 15% crits for single wards you get 10 crits at 270 additional per crit at a total of 2700 for a total additional of 4720 so yeah, str wins

Sorry but if I am reading this I just can say: n00b!!!

This guy has zero idea of maths.

He compares a 100% performance of a pet with a defiler that doesn't use his full capacity of heals - as he could.

Because the comparison wasn't really correct this way - I took some time and calculated the real amounts.

I took his parsing as pet statistics - trusting him that the numbers are correct.

According to that we would have 23.585 additional healing from STR and WIS line.

Now to calculate the AGI and WIS lines you first have to find out how much you could heal in 8 minutes. To achieve this I made a statistic about the timers.

I rounded up the timers to make it easier - meaning SingleWard Reuse set to 6 seconds (instead of 5.6 seconds) etc.

After that I filled in the heals for the complete 8 minutes leaving out a few seconds in which I can't do anything.

The Result was the following:

Group Wards: 24 from which 3.8 were criticals

Single Wards: 24 from which 3.8 were criticals

Group Heals: 38 from which 6 were criticals

Sacrifical: 28 from which 4.5 were criticals

Putrid: 30 from which 4.8 were criticals

and this results in an additional heal amount of 24.875.

Summary:

The question is if you should waste your time to keep your stupid dog pet alive, or if you should concentrate to keep the tank and his group alive.

And in addition heal criticals also have an effect on Manaheals.

His post based on a parse and added the bonus of the AA lines to this. You do the math of the theoretical most optimized casting of healing spells. Yeah, he is the nOOb. Edit: And when we go to the math Ipum forgot the doggy procs a ward on each group member. So it is 23585 x6 = 141510.

holy moly  you were so owned!!!

if you could spec agi  so that you got heal/ward crits on every cast  then yes agi would look alot better, but that's not the case.

I notice a significant difference in healing once my little doggy is in that encounter, and i rarely have to recast him.  usually the only time is when I die   and it's not because my  dog got aggro.

now not trying to correct your great reply to this complain  Besual   but it also procs on pets  =)  so your dog gets it  and if you have a conj in group his pet gets it too   so  X8    it just keeps getting better  [Removed for Content]

haha  you so owned that mofo though  woooot

[Sina]

ROFL RustyB

Well please, if you're thinking that you'll need a pet to "own" then i won't destroy your fantasy.

Others and myself can do the work that your pet does certainly alone.

And if you would read my posting carefully then you would notice that I just correct a false statement of being STR and WIS twenty times better than anything else. Because if you need those pathetic 23k or lets say 140k more, then you have to spam heal so or so and in that case you get similar high values with AGI and WIS also.

Take care and have fun going out with the dog.

PS: My cannibalize combined with ritual does an easy +17% mana, because like I said before, healcriticals also count for the manaheals.

[Estean1]

Kimage wrote:

The Flames forum really has a great set up. The Forum leader there has done a great job on condensing down some of the info and keeping it up to date.

The following is what she has on the consolidated section.

 Achievements KoS AAs <== Achievment Calculator <== Ritual & power return guide <== EoF AAs <== Spells Defiler spell list <== Macros <== Misc World wide channel <== Plant guide <==

There is also a great discussion regarding RoA you may wish to check out.

Kimage this info was very informative and a good read for me.  That being said I must warn anyone that wants to use these posts as a guide the majority of them are pre GU 36 and 37.  The Achievement calculator doesnt' have the changes in there, the KoS and EoF AA threads are almost 100 percent pre 36&36 comments and recommendations.  Because anyone that is probably reading them is trying to min/max to the extreme I would take that into account because those 2 Gu's did some significant changes to AA's.  That being said there is still some good info there.   I didn't realize  I was at the hardcap of 398 for abhorrent shroud and could take a point or two out of that AA and not suffer any loss of warding power.  So thanks for the 2 points I can put somewhere else!

[RustyB]

Sinala wrote:

PS: My cannibalize combined with ritual does an easy +17% mana, because like I said before, healcriticals also count for the manaheals.

i guess that's pretty sweet and all,  but  is it  needed?   I've never really had a mana issue.

[samejima]

Estean@Butcherblock wrote:

Kimage wrote:

The Flames forum really has a great set up. The Forum leader there has done a great job on condensing down some of the info and keeping it up to date.

The following is what she has on the consolidated section.

 Achievements KoS AAs <== Achievment Calculator <== Ritual & power return guide <== EoF AAs <== Spells Defiler spell list <== Macros <== Misc World wide channel <== Plant guide <==

There is also a great discussion regarding RoA you may wish to check out.

Kimage this info was very informative and a good read for me.  That being said I must warn anyone that wants to use these posts as a guide the majority of them are pre GU 36 and 37.  The Achievement calculator doesnt' have the changes in there, the KoS and EoF AA threads are almost 100 percent pre 36&36 comments and recommendations.  Because anyone that is probably reading them is trying to min/max to the extreme I would take that into account because those 2 Gu's did some significant changes to AA's.  That being said there is still some good info there.   I didn't realize  I was at the hardcap of 398 for abhorrent shroud and could take a point or two out of that AA and not suffer any loss of warding power.  So thanks for the 2 points I can put somewhere else!

They should be updated by the end of the week, been really busy lately.

[Kimage]

Estean@Butcherblock wrote:

Kimage wrote:

The Flames forum really has a great set up. The Forum leader there has done a great job on condensing down some of the info and keeping it up to date.

The following is what she has on the consolidated section.

 Achievements KoS AAs <== Achievment Calculator <== Ritual & power return guide <== EoF AAs <== Spells Defiler spell list <== Macros <== Misc World wide channel <== Plant guide <==

There is also a great discussion regarding RoA you may wish to check out.

Kimage this info was very informative and a good read for me.  That being said I must warn anyone that wants to use these posts as a guide the majority of them are pre GU 36 and 37.  The Achievement calculator doesnt' have the changes in there, the KoS and EoF AA threads are almost 100 percent pre 36&36 comments and recommendations.  Because anyone that is probably reading them is trying to min/max to the extreme I would take that into account because those 2 Gu's did some significant changes to AA's.  That being said there is still some good info there.   I didn't realize  I was at the hardcap of 398 for abhorrent shroud and could take a point or two out of that AA and not suffer any loss of warding power.  So thanks for the 2 points I can put somewhere else!

 Your welcome. And as Raz said they are being updated. I have found that whole thread on the eq2flames forum very helpful in respecting my AA's.

[samejima]

I updated all the links and consolidated some of the info found here ________   I will add more stuff later this week about items and gear and all that (been real lazy about it )

[wmmdcis]

Sinala wrote:

Eq2flames?

Ok lets take an example from the forums.

Originally Posted by Ipum

gonna do this on a 8 minute timer, as that is the time on the parse i have with my dog, with no proc enchances that would normally be in the mt group and no haste buff as i forgot to put it up Str Line dog proced 53 times 53x445 = 23585 additional heals Agi Line Alone over 8 minutes at 15% crits for group wards you get 4 crits at 505 additional per crit for 2020 additional heals over 8 minutes at 15% crits for single wards you get 9 crits at 270 additional per crit for a total of 2430 for a total of 4450 additional heals Agi Line + New Wis Line over 8 minutes at 15% crits for group wards you still get 4 crits (only 2 additional wards) at 505 additional per crit for 2020 additional heals over 8 minutes at 15% crits for single wards you get 10 crits at 270 additional per crit at a total of 2700 for a total additional of 4720 so yeah, str wins

Sorry but if I am reading this I just can say: n00b!!!

This guy has zero idea of maths.

He compares a 100% performance of a pet with a defiler that doesn't use his full capacity of heals - as he could.

Because the comparison wasn't really correct this way - I took some time and calculated the real amounts.

I took his parsing as pet statistics - trusting him that the numbers are correct.

According to that we would have 23.585 additional healing from STR and WIS line.

Now to calculate the AGI and WIS lines you first have to find out how much you could heal in 8 minutes. To achieve this I made a statistic about the timers.

I rounded up the timers to make it easier - meaning SingleWard Reuse set to 6 seconds (instead of 5.6 seconds) etc.

After that I filled in the heals for the complete 8 minutes leaving out a few seconds in which I can't do anything.

The Result was the following:

Group Wards: 24 from which 3.8 were criticals

Single Wards: 24 from which 3.8 were criticals

Group Heals: 38 from which 6 were criticals

Sacrifical: 28 from which 4.5 were criticals

Putrid: 30 from which 4.8 were criticals

and this results in an additional heal amount of 24.875.

Summary:

The question is if you should waste your time to keep your stupid dog pet alive, or if you should concentrate to keep the tank and his group alive.

And in addition heal criticals also have an effect on Manaheals.

/yawn, i havent been to these forums in foreva

but anyway, the reason i didnt include direct heals in my math is becuase in the mt group they are cast sporadically, i could prolly count the amount of times i cast putrid balm and sac deliv on a raid and i definitaly dont cast it every time its up, and if i did, it would hit a tank at full health 90% of the time anyway added to the fact that it is literally impossible to cast every ward and every heal every time its up with the 8% reuse + ring of the four winds

also i would like to know how you did your math on your direct heal crits, as i posted all of my math plain as day for it to be checked by anyone, and you just say that your crit math is blah blah per heals per second, seeing as direct heals DO NOT crit at the same amount every time as do wards, it would be quit impossible to tell me how many hps's your gaining from critical direct heals

actually, looking at your numbers (you only cast 24 single and group wards in 8 minutes? but yet 38 group heals? how is that possible that you cast your single target ward less than your group heal? actually you cast more group heals than anything else? serioulsy [I cannot control my vocabulary])