Recent return, Swash as tank?

[Strah]

Recently returned to the game after a very long absence, heard a lot has changed.

 I play with my fiancee, she started a fury, and me a berserker. However I have heard that a swash would do better, even for tanking. How true is this? I don't plan on tanking raids, but I do plan on doing instances/dungeons with her and a few friends, none of which are tank classes. Can a swash still be a tank for groups such as this or would a fighter type be necesary.

Basicaly, I like the utility of a swashy, but being able to keep agro and effectively tank is more important to me.

[quasigenx]

Tanking on a swashie is not hard, but it's not as efficient as using fighter class, either. Heck, I can tank heroic instances on my inquisitor almost as well as my swashie. Aggro is not an issue at all on the later.

[Rippitt]

A decently geared swashbuckler can tank most heroic content in the game. We are sorta like a cross between a warrior and a brawler. We have decent mitigation and decent avoidance, one decent taunt, and we do decent dps. Holding aggro shouldn't be much of an issue even if you have no hate modifying class in the group. I've also tanked Labs, Lyceum, HoS, and most of Deathtoll without much trouble, and last week I tanked a 3 group raid on the 1st floor of EH, just clearing most of the trash while our actual tank was stuck in traffic. Just remember, having priest(s) in your group who know what they are doing can easily make you feel like a plate tank. Focus on your avoidance, then mitigation -- the claymore quest offers several items with resistance to crushing/slashing/piercing and/or +defense.

[Strah]

So would you then sugest playing a swashie over a zerker? It would seem they offer more in terms of utility to my small group (2 furies and a wizard) and if they truly can tank, why play a zerker. They also solo better from what I gather as well as are more desired in groups from what I hear as there are more tank classes around.

 Another thing to note is I will not be twinked much, minor twinkage mainly. Would a monk suit my role better?

 And last thing I'm worried about, while berzerkers AA path (Sta/Str) is good for both tanking and DPS, it would seem that if a swash were to spec Sta for tanking, he would be sacrificing a lot of DPS. Would he still do more DPS than a zerker which is clearly much better at tanking than the swash?

 Just looking for some help on decising

[Margen]

I know this will likely be unpopular saying this on the swashy board.  But the fact that swashy/brigands fill the tank slot for group instants and even raids is so messed up its beyond belief.  This is from someone that plays both a swashy and a SK.

IMHO the game machanics should not put Swashys/brigands in that role ever, maybe for easy instances, but the harder instances and raids it shouldn't happen.  Most importantly raids, its hard enough for fighters to get onto raids now days and the fact that Sony made a raid mob specifically for a swashy/brigand makes it even worse.  Its not like their are a lot of raid mobs where you have to have a brawler or crusader.

Don't take this as attack on you guys, it isn't meant that way.  Just burning off steam on a game machanic that is broken.  My SK rarely raids any more because my swashy is of greater use in raids then any fighter.  One reason you see people on the forms saying their is a shortage of fighters at the higher levels, its kind of developed into a dead end job.

Again, this isn't a attack against the Swashy community, just something that ticks me off alot.

[Cocytus]

Shadowknights are horrible. That's just the way it is.

[quasigenx]

First of all, Sks rule. They tank much, much better than a swashie. No one would dispute this. The fact is that heroic instances are so easy, that virtually any class could tank them.We have a SK raid MT. Any plate tank can fill a raid MT spot if they are played well.

[Hollyf]

The only thing that I want to give my thoughts on here is that swashies do NOT do a better job of tanking than a true fighter class BUT a swash, (equipped well) can tank certain things. Example : I was not even remotely aware that it was a possiblity until the time came when I was asked to join a Venekor pickup raid and at one point, the raid leader asked me to main tank. I was almost sure he certainly knew what he was talking about and didnt question him. End result-I did what I was asked, did not lose aggro once and it went well. Only after did he apoligize to me and say I was shown as a fighter class on his ui ? lol.

Since that time, I have run as tank in T7 groups and did well. Is it better to have a swash as main tank as opposed to a fighter class? No, but it can be done in certain situations.

[Arielle Nightshade]

Ok...That's   ^^^  funny

[Steve11418]

My main raiding toon was a Guard until about 12 months ago when I rolled a Swashbuckler as our guild had none. Both now fully fabled.Yes Rouge can Tank… and A Warrior can DPS… but lets not kid ourselves about which does what better.Re: Shadowknights… I grantee a well played well equipped SK will get through any Heroic instance faster and with less healing than any Rouge can…. But a rouge will get it done.

[Antas22]

I group tank with my Swash a lot, as my guild simply doesn't have many active tanks. A "normal" specced Swash can do a good enough job of it, but it is a bit slower going than a fighter, as healers need to come up for breath, so to speak, more often. When I go STA specced, you'd never know we didn't have a fighter, we can do anything that we'd do with me in DPS spec with a "real" tank. I love tanking, but I tried to play a Zerker...it was like easy mode, very boring. Swash-tanking is much more fun.

[Hamervelder]

Cocytus wrote:

Shadowknights are horrible. That's just the way it is.

Common misconception, my friend.  SK's aren't horrible.  They rely heavily on gear and (being casters) are subject to interrupts.  But those issues aside, SK's can hold their own.  The problem with SK's is perception.  But make no mistake about one thing -- no rogue -- not you, not Coel, not me, no one playing a rogue will hold agro in an aoe environment against multiple mobs like an SK.  I seem to recall a certain person named Leithe seeking a certain SK named Uros to tank raids for him.  SK's can't be that bad, given the fact that you rely on one on no few occasions.  O

[trevro]

A swashbuckler can hold encounter/ae aggro probably better than a lot of SKs if he knows what he is doing.  with hurricane and Stamina AA line's end ability for a reactive taunt combined with encounter taunt = easy aggro.  not to mention our very own lifetap with vitality breach.

[Hamervelder]

trevro wrote:

A swashbuckler can hold encounter/ae aggro probably better than a lot of SKs if he knows what he is doing.  with hurricane and Stamina AA line's end ability for a reactive taunt combined with encounter taunt = easy aggro.  not to mention our very own lifetap with vitality breach.

I have both a 70 sk, and a 70 swashbuckler.  I know how to play both very well.  The SK can and does hold AE agro better than any swashbuckler.  I mean, it's great that swashies can tank, and I've been known to hint that swashies can tank pretty darn well.  But when push comes to shove, a well-played, equally-geared SK will obliterate the tanking ability of a swashbuckler.  It comes down to having the tools to quickly grab, and keep agro.  Scouts just don't have the tools to hold more than 1 or 2 targets securely.

[trevro]

again, my assessment gives a swashbuckler that is set up with the STAmina AA line, which any rogue that wants to frequently tank heroic + zones will have.  this matches a SK's encounter taunt, and gives a defensive stance reactive taunt.  The rogue already has single target taunt.  When attacking with Hurricane and AE, the swash will grosely out damage a SK, giving him more  aggro in a fight.  You Hamer are overstating SK's ability to "obliterate" a swash's tanking ability.

[docpaulp]

Swash ae aggro : 1. Sta line reactive aggro > sk reactive2. Hurricane > agi line for sk (about 13 % difference)3. Encounter taunt - moot point, its about tanking multiple unlinked mobs4. 2 Aes with 30 sec and 60/35 sec recast5. En garde - combined with sta line, procs failry often but has high recast6. Inspiration - but then constant need to place mobs in your front arc - and we all know how jumpy mobs are.Sk aggrp1. Reactive 2. 40% ae proc (most SKs get the mini hurricane)3. 4 Ae's (5 with sta line) , 30 / 30 / 60(45with aa) / 120(80 with aa) / 60 seconds recast. 4. Deathmarch5. Lifetaps on spells and on 2/4(5) aes with reaver. Heals generate aggro too. Much more reliable than vit breach poison6. Rescue7. Harm touch.8. Pestilence. Semi-ae.I'd still vote for sk

[Hamervelder]

trevro wrote:

again, my assessment gives a swashbuckler that is set up with the STAmina AA line, which any rogue that wants to frequently tank heroic + zones will have.  this matches a SK's encounter taunt, and gives a defensive stance reactive taunt.  The rogue already has single target taunt.  When attacking with Hurricane and AE, the swash will grosely out damage a SK, giving him more  aggro in a fight.  You Hamer are overstating SK's ability to "obliterate" a swash's tanking ability.

How about you roll an SK, get him to 70, and then tell me which one is better at AE tanking.  " />  I will reiterate this point:  I have both a 70 SK, and a 70 swashbuckler.  I've tanked any and every heroic T7 instance there is, with both.  The tools available to SK's make them much more viable tanks than swashbucklers.  It comes down to the tools to do the job.  Yay for your reactive taunt.  SK's get one too.Yay for your aoe's.  SK's get three times as many.  Yay for Hurricane.  SK's can have that too, if they wish.  Yay for dps.  SK's tank in offensive stance, and have dps galore.  As much as a swashy in defensive stance.And a ward.And a lifetap.And an aoe lifetap.And an aoe mitigation buff.And a never-ending, spreading, viral DoT.And Death March.  The snap-and-hold AoE rescue.And three taunts.And more stuns than swashbucklers.And rescue.And Feign Death.  Great for rescuing a groupmember and getting agro.And Harm Touch.  Also a great rescue.And the ability to heal him/herself, to a much greater extent than swashbucklers can w/vitality breach.So you see, SK's have every tool that swashbucklers have, and many more that swashbucklers don't have.  I haven't mentioned the extra hate that's generated by our self-heals, or by our ward.  I haven't mentioned the additional tanking tools that we gain through AA's, such as the hate boost from the STR line, or the Hate line itself.  If you spec your swashbuckler as a tank, you will lose a good 40% of your dps.  Don't believe me?  Try it.  To get those great tanking tools, you have to give up other things.  SK's have to give up nothing to get the tools that you flaunted.  Now, that said, I don't run into very many "good" SK's.  There are a lot of SK's running around in mastercrafted gear, using Adept I spells, and wondering why they can't hold agro.  But all things being equal, a swashbuckler simply does not have as many tools available to him/herself to get the job of tanking done.  You're welcome to disagree, of course.  Or even better, roll an SK and prove me wrong.  " /> 

[Cocytus]

meh tired of debating this subject

[trevro]

Okay, you must admit that a SK does not "obliterate" a Swash's aggro if you have tanked with your rogue.  I have a 70swash and 44SK, they both hold mobs for me sufficiently.  At this point, my SK's DPS, survivabiility soloing and in groups has not lived up to what my Rogue was able to do.  You have a a70swash but neglected to figure in lifetap poisons, group invis/evac, single target Mez in your comparison.

[Steve11418]

There is no competing with a competent SK and Deathmarch.Yes they ‘obliterate’ the Swashbuckler in tanking ability.SK is arguably the best ‘heroic’ content tank in the game.

[Hamervelder]

trevro wrote:

Okay, you must admit that a SK does not "obliterate" a Swash's aggro if you have tanked with your rogue.  I have a 70swash and 44SK, they both hold mobs for me sufficiently.  At this point, my SK's DPS, survivabiility soloing and in groups has not lived up to what my Rogue was able to do.  You have a a70swash but neglected to figure in lifetap poisons, group invis/evac, single target Mez in your comparison.

At 44, your SK is missing so many of the tools that make SK's shine.  " />  It's not an accurate comparison really (in my view) to compare the 70 swashy and 44 sk.  Now, on to addressing your other concerns.Lifetap poison:  Maximum of 100 uses.  Procs an average of six times per minute.  Heals for what... about 350 a pop?  Theoretically, that's a maximum of about 2k damage per minute, of self-healing.  SK's have more lifetaps.  I'm not sure if you're familiar with Tap Veins, but it's an AoE lifetap, which (for me) hit every enemy in range for about 1.4k damage, and heals me for over 600 points per enemy hit.  I can (But don't always) literally go from orange health to full health when using Tap Veins.  Recast is 45 seconds (with Reaver AA spec).  Then there's Drain Vitae.  This lifetap heals for about 300, and recast is 20 seconds, again with Reaver AA spec.  Next up, our ward.  It's also a lifetap, with a 5-hit limit, and a 15-second recast.  The heal amount is 251-300 at Adept III. This spell alone has more healing potential per minute than vitality breach poisons.  Then, there's Reaver.  Every time an SK uses a hostile spell, the SK is healed for 2% max health.  DoT's, lifetaps, straight nukes, aoe's, even Brock's Thermal Shocker, all proc the 2% heal.  This is atop any healing done from lifetaps.  I could go on, but I'm sure you're seeing by now that vitality breach just doesn't stack up next to an SK's ability to self-heal.Next up:  group invis.  When is this useful in T7?  Most mobs in dungeons see invis, so I don't see this as being useful, certainly not as a tank.Evac:  SK's get that too.  " />Mez:  Mine gets broken constantly.  Nice toy, but not really that useful.EDIT -- edited for clarification.