New DW changes vs scout and warrior double attack lines

malykii · 08-22-2007, 03:38 PM

I was playing test the other night and all i can say is i am really disapointed. Offhand speed is basically increased 30% on its reuse timers. Now I just don't understand what you guys are trying to accomplish here. Will you be changing aa lines when this is released to even out the difference of double attacking with a buckler vs duel wield? I mean there is no way that you should be able to wield one weopon and do more dmg that someone using a two hand weopon let alone duel wielding. That is just common sense. I have wanted to duel wield with my scout but it just doesnt make sense to because i lose way to much dps; lets not even get into talking about my monk that is basically dependant on duel wielding or two hand. Testing the difference between buckler and duel wield on my scout straight mele combat. Buckler produced on adv of 20% higher dps with one fabled weopon vs duel wielding two fabled weopons. That is just crazy. You guys need to get rid of the buckler lines or really rethink how much you double attack for. That or giving all classes aa lines that allow them to double attack with 1 hnd 2 hnd or duel wield. At least that would be fair. Just wondering is there anyone accountable for checking these things before you send them live? Furthermore do any of you guys actually play the game outside of basic testing at work? EQ1 content was much better managed than this games. The reflected content of EQ2 is one of bias. Alot of bias or just bad judgement. I would figure If any the devs actually played the game actively they might see many of the problems that the boards have been filled with and how much of an adv double attack lines give certain classes over others. Brawlers and Knights are extremely underpowered in this game and all you do is give them minor patch fixes. The focus buff changes didn't fix the problem. Lets plz get on the ball and fix it.

Cocytus · 08-22-2007, 04:42 PM

Use.

Your.

Enter.

Key.

Arthire · 08-22-2007, 04:53 PM

You obviously don't have a clue what a well played brawler is capable of dps wise.

How about you spend less time crying "nerf this other class" and more time trying not to suck at yours?

It's posts like this that are ruining the game... not all classes are the same, nor should they be. FFS, quit trying to get other people's classes changed! ...or at least come up with better whining than the used up "do the devs actually play ZOMG!!!one!!"

Shove off and leave the game alone.

Siclone · 08-22-2007, 04:54 PM

Sins@Crushbone wrote:

I was playing test the other night and all i can say is i am really disapointed. Offhand speed is basically increased 30% on its reuse timers. Now I just don't understand what you guys are trying to accomplish here. Will you be changing aa lines when this is released to even out the difference of double attacking with a buckler vs duel wield? I mean there is no way that you should be able to wield one weopon and do more dmg that someone using a two hand weopon let alone duel wielding. That is just common sense. I have wanted to duel wield with my scout but it just doesnt make sense to because i lose way to much dps; lets not even get into talking about my monk that is basically dependant on duel wielding or two hand. Testing the difference between buckler and duel wield on my scout straight mele combat. Buckler produced on adv of 20% higher dps with one fabled weopon vs duel wielding two fabled weopons. That is just crazy. You guys need to get rid of the buckler lines or really rethink how much you double attack for. That or giving all classes aa lines that allow them to double attack with 1 hnd 2 hnd or duel wield. At least that would be fair. Just wondering is there anyone accountable for checking these things before you send them live? Furthermore do any of you guys actually play the game outside of basic testing at work? EQ1 content was much better managed than this games. The reflected content of EQ2 is one of bias. Alot of bias or just bad judgement. I would figure If any the devs actually played the game actively they might see many of the problems that the boards have been filled with and how much of an adv double attack lines give certain classes over others. Brawlers and Knights are extremely underpowered in this game and all you do is give them minor patch fixes. The focus buff changes didn't fix the problem. Lets plz get on the ball and fix it.

yeah paragraphs for the winHow did you come to the single weapon being 20 percent more dps then the DW? did you run act on the same encounters? can we see the parse?yes all the devs play the game, though there are all kinds of devs and each one works on a particular part of the game so its more complex then, "devs" should know better. I think that is one of the reasons they have feed back forums like this eq1 was a forced raid game, eq2 is way better....btwI would like to see some more numbers and facts on this, I can only dw and don't have the option of one hander or buckler or double attack. I do hope these changes dont nerf DW

PaganSaint · 08-22-2007, 05:09 PM

This is rather interesting. Would definitely like to see which fabled DWs and which fabled one hand he was using to get 20% difference.I could stack the equation to get that kind of difference also, use the GBH for my one hand and two sub 57 rating, 1.6s delay DWs.EDIT: The 33% delay penalty being applied to the primary hand is making DWing after the change just as inferior as DWing before the change if not more so.

Penguin1 · 08-22-2007, 05:12 PM

Pretty clear quite a few devs play Swashbucklers.

Siclone · 08-22-2007, 05:36 PM

Penguin123 wrote:

Pretty clear quite a few devs play Swashbucklers.

yeah, a bit off topic but thats been understood and clear for a long time now.

ThadeusOfShibboleth · 08-22-2007, 05:47 PM

To the OP, your post means absolutely nothing without data to back it up. Not only that, attacking the devs will not get you the attention you want so a more political post may be in order. If your upset about an upcoming change and claim to have "tested", then back it up, and people will be more inclined to listen.

Kimage · 08-22-2007, 05:55 PM

Cocytus wrote:

Use.
Your.
Enter.
Key.

qfmfe

malykii · 08-22-2007, 09:02 PM

Arty@Oasis wrote:

You obviously don't have a clue what a well played brawler is capable of dps wise.
How about you spend less time crying "nerf this other class" and more time trying not to suck at yours?
It's posts like this that are ruining the game... not all classes are the same, nor should they be. FFS, quit trying to get other people's classes changed! ...or at least come up with better whining than the used up "do the devs actually play ZOMG!!!one!!"
Shove off and leave the game alone.

well lets see my monk zonewides at about 2300 and my bruiser zonewides at about 1900 your right i have no idea what a good brawler is capable of. if you say you know one that hits higher you are most likely lieing because for some reason the monks and bruisers i know cant even hit 2k consistently zonewide and they are in hardcore raiding guilds and have better weopons than i do.

as for the facts on the dps. i was using act to parse on the same mob over a 2 minute span over 10 tests using both duel wield and double attack line. duel wield doesnt come close to compairing to double attack line. and it was with vyemms fang and admantine dragon fang. uses admantine dragon fang with the buckler and its rated even lower than vyemms fang. you shouldnt do more dps with a one hander no matter what class you are.

Its my business to challenge the devs if i want. If they actually are playing the game lets see some results. so far there have been about 7 or 8 huge posts about monks and bruiser having viable raid use and what do we get. a lousy focus buff change. pagan you started one of the posts. they admit there is a problem yet do nothing. i am sorry but i am a general manager for a pretty large corp. in rl if problems dont get fixed then i hear about it. if people cant get the problem taken care of and i have to do it for them, people get fired.

malykii · 08-22-2007, 09:57 PM

lets just take a look at the dr rating of weopons alone to see what the bias is.

EOF two hander spec'd for mele is about 110 to 120

EOF duel wield weopon (pre update) 65 to 68 so combined middle of the road dr 132.5

EOF one hand weopon with 100% double attack 77 to 83 combined you are seeing 160 total dr

EOF one hand weopon with 68% double attack 77 to 83 and you are still seeing total dr of about 136.3

scouts the difference isnt all that much right now with the right weopons. zerkers and

warriors have a huge advantage though over other classes.

PaganSaint · 08-22-2007, 10:29 PM

This thread is pretty much worthless.No facts, no observations of actual gameplay, and more importantly no coherent and set topic.You people are all over the place.As it is currently: DW DPS is parsed out to be ~2-10% lower than one hand and 68% double attack. That large of a DPS difference is due to weapon quality. Anything from the Bisected Saber down to Vyemm's Fang and Clearcutter Machette down to the Shadow Axe are being used to back up people's numbers.

Siclone · 08-23-2007, 10:43 AM

ah god another whining brawler, discussed in a scout and warrior thread......there is already one of these threads.....

liveja · 08-23-2007, 11:18 AM

Sins@Crushbone wrote:

well lets see my monk zonewides at about 2300 and my bruiser zonewides at about 1900
if you say you know one that hits higher you are most likely lieing because for some reason the monks and bruisers i know cant even hit 2k consistently zonewide and they are in hardcore raiding guilds and have better weopons than i do.

I'm sorry, but for some reason, the RED & GREEN lines don't seem to match very well. You're trying to tell me that brawlers you know are hitting considerably LESS than you, with BETTER weapons?

Sorry, but I'm having a very hard time believing that

08-22-2007, 04:53 PM	#3
Arthire General Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 19	You obviously don't have a clue what a well played brawler is capable of dps wise. How about you spend less time crying "nerf this other class" and more time trying not to suck at yours? It's posts like this that are ruining the game... not all classes are the same, nor should they be. FFS, quit trying to get other people's classes changed! ...or at least come up with better whining than the used up "do the devs actually play ZOMG!!!one!!" Shove off and leave the game alone. __________________ Arty Ferrara Swashbuckler

08-22-2007, 04:54 PM	#4
Siclone Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 717	Sins@Crushbone wrote: I was playing test the other night and all i can say is i am really disapointed. Offhand speed is basically increased 30% on its reuse timers. Now I just don't understand what you guys are trying to accomplish here. Will you be changing aa lines when this is released to even out the difference of double attacking with a buckler vs duel wield? I mean there is no way that you should be able to wield one weopon and do more dmg that someone using a two hand weopon let alone duel wielding. That is just common sense. I have wanted to duel wield with my scout but it just doesnt make sense to because i lose way to much dps; lets not even get into talking about my monk that is basically dependant on duel wielding or two hand. Testing the difference between buckler and duel wield on my scout straight mele combat. Buckler produced on adv of 20% higher dps with one fabled weopon vs duel wielding two fabled weopons. That is just crazy. You guys need to get rid of the buckler lines or really rethink how much you double attack for. That or giving all classes aa lines that allow them to double attack with 1 hnd 2 hnd or duel wield. At least that would be fair. Just wondering is there anyone accountable for checking these things before you send them live? Furthermore do any of you guys actually play the game outside of basic testing at work? EQ1 content was much better managed than this games. The reflected content of EQ2 is one of bias. Alot of bias or just bad judgement. I would figure If any the devs actually played the game actively they might see many of the problems that the boards have been filled with and how much of an adv double attack lines give certain classes over others. Brawlers and Knights are extremely underpowered in this game and all you do is give them minor patch fixes. The focus buff changes didn't fix the problem. Lets plz get on the ball and fix it. yeah paragraphs for the winHow did you come to the single weapon being 20 percent more dps then the DW? did you run act on the same encounters? can we see the parse?yes all the devs play the game, though there are all kinds of devs and each one works on a particular part of the game so its more complex then, "devs" should know better. I think that is one of the reasons they have feed back forums like this eq1 was a forced raid game, eq2 is way better....btwI would like to see some more numbers and facts on this, I can only dw and don't have the option of one hander or buckler or double attack. I do hope these changes dont nerf DW

08-22-2007, 05:36 PM	#7
Siclone Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 717	Penguin123 wrote: Pretty clear quite a few devs play Swashbucklers. yeah, a bit off topic but thats been understood and clear for a long time now.

08-22-2007, 05:55 PM	#9
Kimage Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 330	Cocytus wrote: Use. Your. Enter. Key. qfmfe __________________

08-22-2007, 09:02 PM	#10
malykii Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 44	Arty@Oasis wrote: You obviously don't have a clue what a well played brawler is capable of dps wise. How about you spend less time crying "nerf this other class" and more time trying not to suck at yours? It's posts like this that are ruining the game... not all classes are the same, nor should they be. FFS, quit trying to get other people's classes changed! ...or at least come up with better whining than the used up "do the devs actually play ZOMG!!!one!!" Shove off and leave the game alone. well lets see my monk zonewides at about 2300 and my bruiser zonewides at about 1900 your right i have no idea what a good brawler is capable of. if you say you know one that hits higher you are most likely lieing because for some reason the monks and bruisers i know cant even hit 2k consistently zonewide and they are in hardcore raiding guilds and have better weopons than i do. as for the facts on the dps. i was using act to parse on the same mob over a 2 minute span over 10 tests using both duel wield and double attack line. duel wield doesnt come close to compairing to double attack line. and it was with vyemms fang and admantine dragon fang. uses admantine dragon fang with the buckler and its rated even lower than vyemms fang. you shouldnt do more dps with a one hander no matter what class you are. Its my business to challenge the devs if i want. If they actually are playing the game lets see some results. so far there have been about 7 or 8 huge posts about monks and bruiser having viable raid use and what do we get. a lousy focus buff change. pagan you started one of the posts. they admit there is a problem yet do nothing. i am sorry but i am a general manager for a pretty large corp. in rl if problems dont get fixed then i hear about it. if people cant get the problem taken care of and i have to do it for them, people get fired.

08-22-2007, 03:38 PM	#1
malykii Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 44	I was playing test the other night and all i can say is i am really disapointed. Offhand speed is basically increased 30% on its reuse timers. Now I just don't understand what you guys are trying to accomplish here. Will you be changing aa lines when this is released to even out the difference of double attacking with a buckler vs duel wield? I mean there is no way that you should be able to wield one weopon and do more dmg that someone using a two hand weopon let alone duel wielding. That is just common sense. I have wanted to duel wield with my scout but it just doesnt make sense to because i lose way to much dps; lets not even get into talking about my monk that is basically dependant on duel wielding or two hand. Testing the difference between buckler and duel wield on my scout straight mele combat. Buckler produced on adv of 20% higher dps with one fabled weopon vs duel wielding two fabled weopons. That is just crazy. You guys need to get rid of the buckler lines or really rethink how much you double attack for. That or giving all classes aa lines that allow them to double attack with 1 hnd 2 hnd or duel wield. At least that would be fair. Just wondering is there anyone accountable for checking these things before you send them live? Furthermore do any of you guys actually play the game outside of basic testing at work? EQ1 content was much better managed than this games. The reflected content of EQ2 is one of bias. Alot of bias or just bad judgement. I would figure If any the devs actually played the game actively they might see many of the problems that the boards have been filled with and how much of an adv double attack lines give certain classes over others. Brawlers and Knights are extremely underpowered in this game and all you do is give them minor patch fixes. The focus buff changes didn't fix the problem. Lets plz get on the ball and fix it.

08-22-2007, 04:42 PM	#2
Cocytus Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,908	Use. Your. Enter. Key.

08-22-2007, 05:09 PM	#5
PaganSaint Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 576	This is rather interesting. Would definitely like to see which fabled DWs and which fabled one hand he was using to get 20% difference.I could stack the equation to get that kind of difference also, use the GBH for my one hand and two sub 57 rating, 1.6s delay DWs.EDIT: The 33% delay penalty being applied to the primary hand is making DWing after the change just as inferior as DWing before the change if not more so.

08-22-2007, 05:12 PM	#6
Penguin1 General Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 13	Pretty clear quite a few devs play Swashbucklers.

08-22-2007, 05:47 PM	#8
ThadeusOfShibboleth Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 84	To the OP, your post means absolutely nothing without data to back it up. Not only that, attacking the devs will not get you the attention you want so a more political post may be in order. If your upset about an upcoming change and claim to have "tested", then back it up, and people will be more inclined to listen.

08-22-2007, 09:57 PM	#11
malykii Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 44	lets just take a look at the dr rating of weopons alone to see what the bias is. EOF two hander spec'd for mele is about 110 to 120 EOF duel wield weopon (pre update) 65 to 68 so combined middle of the road dr 132.5 EOF one hand weopon with 100% double attack 77 to 83 combined you are seeing 160 total dr EOF one hand weopon with 68% double attack 77 to 83 and you are still seeing total dr of about 136.3 scouts the difference isnt all that much right now with the right weopons. zerkers and warriors have a huge advantage though over other classes.

08-22-2007, 10:29 PM	#12
PaganSaint Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 576	This thread is pretty much worthless.No facts, no observations of actual gameplay, and more importantly no coherent and set topic.You people are all over the place.As it is currently: DW DPS is parsed out to be ~2-10% lower than one hand and 68% double attack. That large of a DPS difference is due to weapon quality. Anything from the Bisected Saber down to Vyemm's Fang and Clearcutter Machette down to the Shadow Axe are being used to back up people's numbers.

08-23-2007, 10:43 AM	#13
Siclone Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 717	ah god another whining brawler, discussed in a scout and warrior thread......there is already one of these threads.....

08-23-2007, 11:18 AM	#14
liveja General Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends Posts: 4,793	Sins@Crushbone wrote: well lets see my monk zonewides at about 2300 and my bruiser zonewides at about 1900 if you say you know one that hits higher you are most likely lieing because for some reason the monks and bruisers i know cant even hit 2k consistently zonewide and they are in hardcore raiding guilds and have better weopons than i do. I'm sorry, but for some reason, the RED & GREEN lines don't seem to match very well. You're trying to tell me that brawlers you know are hitting considerably LESS than you, with BETTER weapons? Sorry, but I'm having a very hard time believing that __________________