LU16 --- DW DPS increase !!!

Hzor · 11-07-2005, 12:51 PM

I have feeling that EQ2 slowly moving in to EQ1 way. All DoF+ changes make EQ2 more like EQ1.

I remember, that in manual and site was mentioned that this game will have same mechanix for both

DW and 2H weapons with a bit less dps for 1H (becouse you can have HUGE defence boost with shields)

If you remember in EQ1 DW was always better dps then 2H and WAY better than 1H weaps.

Lets see way EQ2 moves in to EQ1 direction:

1. SoE added free shield to Brawlers - like they have alwais shield with them - even when DW-ing. It was implemented

long time ago (like 6 months or maybe more). Why ? i cant understand actually. If Plate tank need to be MT in group, and group

killing really chalengingn things - they need to wear shield+1H instead of 2H (Warriors and Crusaders). Brawlers still can use their

2H ers since they have ALWAIS shields with them. Why ? WHy not to give them option to ? So if brawler want to be MT on some challenging

mobs ( aka almost orange when exp-ng ) they will need to wear shield like it was implemented in early game ?

2. LU13 increasing DPS of brawlers even more than prior - agayn i smell eq1 here - monks have there really cool dps (ofcourse not compared to roques

and wizards SMILEY

but..)

3. Isnt in manual mentioned that 2H and DW weaps have SAME dps ? Yes, it is. But now SoE decided to move in to EQ1 direction even more

in dps aspect of game. Now it will make even more difference between Brawlers dps - which CAN and WILL use DW and

Crusaders - wich CANT AT ALL !!!. Also increasing DW dps will make brawlers tanking really trivial. Everyone know that more dps - more agro

Already having Best dps (ok almost same with scout class) helping them alot with agro, so increasing will have them really big + abowe all other tanks

Will not be surprised if they will abla to hold agro with just autoattack on with 1 taunt casting ( ill check it after update on my RL friends 60 bruiser i often play atm)

No one of plate tanks can afford to tank with DW (of course if mob not blue or white noob) since we loosing alot without shields.

I am not complaining - i tryed already. Just playing my new 34lvl Ranger alt atm (will try to get that 70% exp to finaly ding my guardian 60). now i can see really DIFFERENT game - very nice and interesting. Any mob which not orange i can kill in 3 shots maxinum - they dieing even prior they can reach me in melee.

Easy killing blue heroics without any adept3 arts. I can sneak and make 3x more quests per given time than my guardian, if something goes wrong - evac is your friend ! Mob is hard ? then just kite it and avoide close combat etc.

Yes Soe you really made different games for different classes. Playing guardian now not even close with fun to any other class (exept clerics i think but they atleast

have their primary role not nerfed so bad). Dont know mabe Guardian extra cool for some raid tanking T6 mobs, but... whole game not only raiding some noob need

60lvl of exping / questing to get to the raid part of game.

And buck to original idea - SoE please just tell now in patch notes :

With todays increasing of DW dps we need to introduce you new role of fighters classes

1. Brawlers - even more dps than ever, best tank with DW (with reducing repostes) and best agro holders

2. Crusaders - only support class for brawlers, current patch makes them fall behinde in dps even more.

3.Warriors - Zerkers : looks like can benefit of DW update couse of some they skills.

Guardians : hmm maybe good for something but we dont know atm for what and in which situations

we hope we will finde 2-3 encounters suited for guardians so you can play them 1-2 day per months

Anyway Dinosaurus gone long time ago. Looks like same happened with Guardians. Ok nothing we can do here. SoE decide that Brawlers new UBER MUST HAVE

class. We cant change anything. So ill just play my Ranger till Vanguard .

Haik 59 Guardian

Neriak

P.S. Sorry for English

Laute · 11-07-2005, 02:23 PM

Brawlers get deflection because it makes more sense for them not to have one. You give Brawlers a shield, you eliminate some of the class fluff and flavor. Might as well call Guardians "Noodle Boys," Zerkers "Rice Dumplings," and Bards should just be replaced by pop-tarts because, after all, class flavor doesn't matter.That aside, every fighter is intended to tank. That's why we have an archetype system. Sounds to me rather unlike EQ1, where from what I've heard, it's always one class tanks or none.I can't say a whole lot about the DPS increase. *Shrug* They were supposed to have lost some. They're supposed to do good damage for fighters. If they're not, it's just an issue that needs to be fixed. I've full confidence that they will.And yes, 2h and Dual Wield weapons are supposed to be about the same in terms of strength. Instead of just saying that DW is now far superior to anything else, maybe it was a little lacking for? Attack speed and proc rates could very well have been lacking beforehand. Have you tracked damage from a variety of classes for the last month and compared DPS rates over time? If you have, then I apologize, but if not, yeesh. Jumping to conclusions much?

QQ-Fatman · 11-07-2005, 02:33 PM

This is only because DW weapons are too weak compared to 2handers now because of the low proc rate. The actual proc rate* = proc % x weapon delay / 3. It means the slower the weapon, the higher chance to proc. It matter a lot when you use combat arts to trigger ptoc effect. So this patch is actually a "fix" of DW wepaons' disadvantage and it has nothing to do to brawlers. Right now a good brawler knows to use 2handers to have better dps and lower chance to get riposte. After Lu16, DW weapons will be the same as 2handers so we'll just have more weapon choice.

*proc formula: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=30217#M30217

Message Edited by QQFatman on 11-07-2005 04:36 AM

Laha · 11-07-2005, 02:46 PM

Hzor wrote:

I have feeling that EQ2 slowly moving in to EQ1 way. All DoF+ changes make EQ2 more like EQ1.

I remember, that in manual and site was mentioned that this game will have same mechanix for both

DW and 2H weapons with a bit less dps for 1H (becouse you can have HUGE defence boost with shields)

If you remember in EQ1 DW was always better dps then 2H and WAY better than 1H weaps.

Lets see way EQ2 moves in to EQ1 direction:

1. SoE added free shield to Brawlers - like they have alwais shield with them - even when DW-ing. It was implemented

long time ago (like 6 months or maybe more). Why ? i cant understand actually. If Plate tank need to be MT in group, and group

killing really chalengingn things - they need to wear shield+1H instead of 2H (Warriors and Crusaders). Brawlers still can use their

2H ers since they have ALWAIS shields with them. Why ? WHy not to give them option to ? So if brawler want to be MT on some challenging

mobs ( aka almost orange when exp-ng ) they will need to wear shield like it was implemented in early game ?

2. LU13 increasing DPS of brawlers even more than prior - agayn i smell eq1 here - monks have there really cool dps (ofcourse not compared to roques

and wizards but..)

3. Isnt in manual mentioned that 2H and DW weaps have SAME dps ? Yes, it is. But now SoE decided to move in to EQ1 direction even more

in dps aspect of game. Now it will make even more difference between Brawlers dps - which CAN and WILL use DW and

Crusaders - wich CANT AT ALL !!!. Also increasing DW dps will make brawlers tanking really trivial. Everyone know that more dps - more agro

Already having Best dps (ok almost same with scout class) helping them alot with agro, so increasing will have them really big + abowe all other tanks

Will not be surprised if they will abla to hold agro with just autoattack on with 1 taunt casting ( ill check it after update on my RL friends 60 bruiser i often play atm)

No one of plate tanks can afford to tank with DW (of course if mob not blue or white noob) since we loosing alot without shields.

I am not complaining - i tryed already. Just playing my new 34lvl Ranger alt atm (will try to get that 70% exp to finaly ding my guardian 60). now i can see really DIFFERENT game - very nice and interesting. Any mob which not orange i can kill in 3 shots maxinum - they dieing even prior they can reach me in melee.

Easy killing blue heroics without any adept3 arts. I can sneak and make 3x more quests per given time than my guardian, if something goes wrong - evac is your friend ! Mob is hard ? then just kite it and avoide close combat etc.

Yes Soe you really made different games for different classes. Playing guardian now not even close with fun to any other class (exept clerics i think but they atleast

have their primary role not nerfed so bad). Dont know mabe Guardian extra cool for some raid tanking T6 mobs, but... whole game not only raiding some noob need

60lvl of exping / questing to get to the raid part of game.

And buck to original idea - SoE please just tell now in patch notes :

With todays increasing of DW dps we need to introduce you new role of fighters classes

1. Brawlers - even more dps than ever, best tank with DW (with reducing repostes) and best agro holders

2. Crusaders - only support class for brawlers, current patch makes them fall behinde in dps even more.

3.Warriors - Zerkers : looks like can benefit of DW update couse of some they skills.

Guardians : hmm maybe good for something but we dont know atm for what and in which situations

we hope we will finde 2-3 encounters suited for guardians so you can play them 1-2 day per months

Anyway Dinosaurus gone long time ago. Looks like same happened with Guardians. Ok nothing we can do here. SoE decide that Brawlers new UBER MUST HAVE

class. We cant change anything. So ill just play my Ranger till Vanguard .

Haik 59 Guardian

Neriak

P.S. Sorry for English

Seems like brawler hate to me

Dalick · 11-07-2005, 03:04 PM

One thing I wanted to note.. As of Luclin 2 Hand weapons were king in EQ1. There was no beating the same tier DW weapon combo with a smae tier 2HB. It dose not matter anyway. Having a differance between weapons is a good thing. It gives pros and cons to using one style instead of another. Each have thier uses though wich means its a situational thing.

thorvang · 11-07-2005, 04:29 PM

who cares about brawlers? scouts should have better dps then tank classes, thus they need access to the weapons which dish out the most damage.putting dw damage on top of the league is a right decision.now, if brawlers get an advantage from that, nerf them. but think of the scouts when doing so SMILEY

Danter · 11-07-2005, 05:55 PM

Stop complaining about DW, half the Brawlers don't use it anyway.

You shouldn't be complaining because Crusaders are now uber tanks that can now equip symbols which give +mitigation and +resists.

Show me a sheath that has those stats.

EtoilePirate · 11-07-2005, 08:58 PM

thorvang wrote:who cares about brawlers? scouts should have better dps then tank classes, thus they need access to the weapons which dish out the most damage.putting dw damage on top of the league is a right decision.now, if brawlers get an advantage from that, nerf them. but think of the scouts when doing so

Mmm. For the assassin at least, "Defense" is a laughable concept. The best defense is a good offense. When I parse, I find that my top three total manage-doers over the course of an hour are poison (#1), piercing (#2 - primary hand), and slashing (#3 - off hand, grey weapon). As a class that's 100% about melee damage, with pretty much nothing else, increasing my DW capability saves my butt.

ErikShaf · 11-07-2005, 09:17 PM

I rather not jump into the arguement of DPS this-that, ect as I played EQII a ton when it first came lout for 4 months but got 'called' back to EQ1 to help a raiding guild out. I am now back in EQII and loving it. I just though I should mention that Monk DPS is just as good as Wizzy if not better, melees have gotten a real big push as of late since casters arn't getting much focii as melees. Personally, saying that I havn't had a brawler past level 18 I can say the class and the subclasses should be more DPS than any other figher class but of course not out-DPSIng any of the scout classes (maybe near the Bard?). This makes up for some of their tanking capabilities, more of a fix of Fighter/Scout damage wise. At least that is what I've always pictured it as, since I've played a lot of MMORPGs and paper and pencil games with monks. That is my two rusty but still valueable, two cents SMILEY

brow27 · 11-07-2005, 09:22 PM

Danterus wrote:

Stop complaining about DW, half the Brawlers don't use it anyway.

You shouldn't be complaining because Crusaders are now uber tanks that can now equip symbols which give +mitigation and +resists.

Show me a sheath that has those stats.

Please show me a symbol that has +mit on it, I've never seen one.

QQ-Fatman · 11-07-2005, 09:37 PM

brow27 wrote:

Please show me a symbol that has +mit on it, I've never seen one.

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=a11&message.id=2671

Ookami-san · 11-08-2005, 07:36 PM

Dalick wrote:

One thing I wanted to note.. As of Luclin 2 Hand weapons were king in EQ1. There was no beating the same tier DW weapon combo with a smae tier 2HB. It dose not matter anyway. Having a differance between weapons is a good thing. It gives pros and cons to using one style instead of another. Each have thier uses though wich means its a situational thing.

It's not situational at all, as some classes cannot use 2H weapons... so they are never in a situation where using a 2H is better.

Despak · 11-09-2005, 05:22 AM

QQFatman wrote:

brow27 wrote:

Please show me a symbol that has +mit on it, I've never seen one.

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=a11&message.id=2671

[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], sod the mitigation. Range slots with +60 to all melee skills. I better never hear a Paladin whine about his melee skills again when they get these.

Fulsta · 11-09-2005, 05:55 AM

Despak look again, it's vs those types of damage. Not adding to their melee skills.

Teche · 11-09-2005, 06:23 PM

ErikShafer wrote:
I just though I should mention that Monk DPS is just as good as Wizzy if not better,

Personally, saying that I havn't had a brawler past level 18

I just thought id mention that you are wrong.

Kenazeer · 11-09-2005, 06:56 PM

Fulsta wrote:
Despak look again, it's vs those types of damage. Not adding to their melee skills.

I am not usre if he took it wrong or just worded it poorly. However, the +60 vs. to pierce/slash/crushing does have the net effect of adding 60 mitigation. Not a lot mind you, but coupled with all the stats and other saves 60 mitigation is pretty nice.

Despak · 11-09-2005, 07:51 PM

Kenazeer wrote:

Fulsta wrote:Despak look again, it's vs those types of damage. Not adding to their melee skills.

I am not usre if he took it wrong or just worded it poorly. However, the +60 vs. to pierce/slash/crushing does have the net effect of adding 60 mitigation. Not a lot mind you, but coupled with all the stats and other saves 60 mitigation is pretty nice.

Thanks, yeah I worded it poorly. But in essence they are getting a damned good amount of mitigation when you add the fact that their kite shields are exactly the same as full tower shields, coupled with buffs, heals, nukes, plate armour. Looking forward to reading the Guardians response to this lot.

Dalick · 11-09-2005, 08:04 PM

Crusaders have other benifits that work for them when it comes to how much DMG they do. Heals for one as a Paladin ( Not sure on much for the SK I have not had enough interest in them to look them up. ). 2H or 1H is the choice of DMG over mid. thats the situational point for a Crusader. A Brawler uses a 2HB when he/she wants to take less DMG on ripostes. Personaly I prefer DW to 2HB on my Monk and my Bruiser.

Either way I dont see this change making a huge DPS differance... well any more than there already is.

QuantumSingulari · 11-09-2005, 08:14 PM

yea, bruiser/monk dps doesn't compare to mages dps, well atleast Necro or Conjuror DPS. I think brawlers are a very well rounded class. Just wish sony would get everybody else's classes right. As having a bruiser myself i still think a 2hander will do the same dps as DW instead of more, so like said earlier...it's just opening up more weapon choices.

Ookami-san · 11-09-2005, 08:25 PM

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=a11&message.id=2671

The question everyone should be asking is... since we're getting new "charm" slots... will other classes (ie. rogues, etc.) be able to use these symbols in the charm slots... or will it remain dolls only in charm slots and crusaders get an extra slot for "secondary" symbols.

Hmmm... I'd much rather have one of those symbols I think than a T6 doll.

Ayu · 11-09-2005, 08:25 PM

Am I only the only one who can't find anything about a DW DPS increase in this patch?

Is this about them proc'ing more?

Give me a break. Worst case scenario is that they'll actually beginning going off at the displayed rate. I wouldn't call this a DPS increase of any magnitude that would cause your reaction unless you're just insecure about your ability to tank as is.

This is nothing but straight up brawler hate because somebody feels slighted after the combat update. Guardians and Crusaders are still wanted in groups, it's not like monks and bruisers have become the "must have" class in groups.

You seem to just be irked because we're now an option instead of a joke for tanking.

judged_one · 11-09-2005, 10:27 PM

Brawler1.) Tier 2 to 1 DPS2.) Can buff to 4000+ Mit3.) Can increase avoidance to 70%+4.) Can self heal for 2-3 k5.) 30 sec immune to stun, aoe (seize mind)6.) FD7.) Can stun and knock back target when duelling8.) Long duration stun that work like a mez9.) Liek all tank you get a special buff to certain dmg type. (Mental?) Can't remember.Yeah they are slightly overpowered after LU 16

Al · 11-09-2005, 11:00 PM

Know what you're talking about before you start posting brawler are overpowered.

1) T1 to T2 DPS in a exp grp with extremely short fights. Parse a raid and you will see a lvl 60 bruiser with all ad3, rare weps will be t3-t4 dps.

2) Can buff to 4000 miti while in defensive stance for 30 seconds max WHILE being stunned. They fixed close mind so we can no longer have the extra mitigation without the penalties.

3) I have 3 fabled, all ad3, +3 deflection wrist, 368 AGI, and I can only self buff 66.8% avoidance. A guard can easily achieve that + superior mitigation in a raid.

4) I can self heal max of 37% of my health at ad3 every 90 secs and it costs power(didnt used to), try again.

5) Close Mind doesnt block all stuns, stifles contrary to what it says in the description, I would rather have monk skill tsunami anyday of the week.

6) FD - Yea you got me on that one.

7) All fighter classes can stun, you obviously havent dueled much.

24 sec mez that breaks once damaged, whats so overpowered about that?

9) I get buff to poison being a bruiser, just the same as a guard gets a buff to heat.

Raijinn · 11-10-2005, 03:22 AM

Shutting thread down, multiple reposts and spamming message.

11-07-2005, 02:46 PM	#4
Laha General Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 85	Hzor wrote: I have feeling that EQ2 slowly moving in to EQ1 way. All DoF+ changes make EQ2 more like EQ1. I remember, that in manual and site was mentioned that this game will have same mechanix for both DW and 2H weapons with a bit less dps for 1H (becouse you can have HUGE defence boost with shields) If you remember in EQ1 DW was always better dps then 2H and WAY better than 1H weaps. Lets see way EQ2 moves in to EQ1 direction: 1. SoE added free shield to Brawlers - like they have alwais shield with them - even when DW-ing. It was implemented long time ago (like 6 months or maybe more). Why ? i cant understand actually. If Plate tank need to be MT in group, and group killing really chalengingn things - they need to wear shield+1H instead of 2H (Warriors and Crusaders). Brawlers still can use their 2H ers since they have ALWAIS shields with them. Why ? WHy not to give them option to ? So if brawler want to be MT on some challenging mobs ( aka almost orange when exp-ng ) they will need to wear shield like it was implemented in early game ? 2. LU13 increasing DPS of brawlers even more than prior - agayn i smell eq1 here - monks have there really cool dps (ofcourse not compared to roques and wizards but..) 3. Isnt in manual mentioned that 2H and DW weaps have SAME dps ? Yes, it is. But now SoE decided to move in to EQ1 direction even more in dps aspect of game. Now it will make even more difference between Brawlers dps - which CAN and WILL use DW and Crusaders - wich CANT AT ALL !!!. Also increasing DW dps will make brawlers tanking really trivial. Everyone know that more dps - more agro Already having Best dps (ok almost same with scout class) helping them alot with agro, so increasing will have them really big + abowe all other tanks Will not be surprised if they will abla to hold agro with just autoattack on with 1 taunt casting ( ill check it after update on my RL friends 60 bruiser i often play atm) No one of plate tanks can afford to tank with DW (of course if mob not blue or white noob) since we loosing alot without shields. I am not complaining - i tryed already. Just playing my new 34lvl Ranger alt atm (will try to get that 70% exp to finaly ding my guardian 60). now i can see really DIFFERENT game - very nice and interesting. Any mob which not orange i can kill in 3 shots maxinum - they dieing even prior they can reach me in melee. Easy killing blue heroics without any adept3 arts. I can sneak and make 3x more quests per given time than my guardian, if something goes wrong - evac is your friend ! Mob is hard ? then just kite it and avoide close combat etc. Yes Soe you really made different games for different classes. Playing guardian now not even close with fun to any other class (exept clerics i think but they atleast have their primary role not nerfed so bad). Dont know mabe Guardian extra cool for some raid tanking T6 mobs, but... whole game not only raiding some noob need 60lvl of exping / questing to get to the raid part of game. And buck to original idea - SoE please just tell now in patch notes : With todays increasing of DW dps we need to introduce you new role of fighters classes 1. Brawlers - even more dps than ever, best tank with DW (with reducing repostes) and best agro holders 2. Crusaders - only support class for brawlers, current patch makes them fall behinde in dps even more. 3.Warriors - Zerkers : looks like can benefit of DW update couse of some they skills. Guardians : hmm maybe good for something but we dont know atm for what and in which situations we hope we will finde 2-3 encounters suited for guardians so you can play them 1-2 day per months Anyway Dinosaurus gone long time ago. Looks like same happened with Guardians. Ok nothing we can do here. SoE decide that Brawlers new UBER MUST HAVE class. We cant change anything. So ill just play my Ranger till Vanguard . Haik 59 Guardian Neriak P.S. Sorry for English Seems like brawler hate to me

11-07-2005, 03:04 PM	#5
Dalick Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 53	One thing I wanted to note.. As of Luclin 2 Hand weapons were king in EQ1. There was no beating the same tier DW weapon combo with a smae tier 2HB. It dose not matter anyway. Having a differance between weapons is a good thing. It gives pros and cons to using one style instead of another. Each have thier uses though wich means its a situational thing. __________________ =^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^ =^=^=^=^ Dalick Bloodclaw Monk/Tailor Remnoq Bloodclaw Conjuror/Armorer Veldore Bloodclaw Berzerker/Provisioner Zectash Bloodclaw Druid/Jeweler Zorlach Bloodclaw Shaman/Alchemist Miqlee Bloodclaw Ranger/Woodworker

11-07-2005, 04:29 PM	#6
thorvang Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 862	who cares about brawlers? scouts should have better dps then tank classes, thus they need access to the weapons which dish out the most damage.putting dw damage on top of the league is a right decision.now, if brawlers get an advantage from that, nerf them. but think of the scouts when doing so __________________

11-07-2005, 08:58 PM	#8
EtoilePirate Tester Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 1,258	thorvang wrote:who cares about brawlers? scouts should have better dps then tank classes, thus they need access to the weapons which dish out the most damage.putting dw damage on top of the league is a right decision.now, if brawlers get an advantage from that, nerf them. but think of the scouts when doing so Mmm. For the assassin at least, "Defense" is a laughable concept. The best defense is a good offense. When I parse, I find that my top three total manage-doers over the course of an hour are poison (#1), piercing (#2 - primary hand), and slashing (#3 - off hand, grey weapon). As a class that's 100% about melee damage, with pretty much nothing else, increasing my DW capability saves my butt. __________________ Kella The Mighty Pirate, Assassin & Tailor Nimari, Fury-at-Large Test Server

11-07-2005, 09:17 PM	#9
ErikShaf General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7	I rather not jump into the arguement of DPS this-that, ect as I played EQII a ton when it first came lout for 4 months but got 'called' back to EQ1 to help a raiding guild out. I am now back in EQII and loving it. I just though I should mention that Monk DPS is just as good as Wizzy if not better, melees have gotten a real big push as of late since casters arn't getting much focii as melees. Personally, saying that I havn't had a brawler past level 18 I can say the class and the subclasses should be more DPS than any other figher class but of course not out-DPSIng any of the scout classes (maybe near the Bard?). This makes up for some of their tanking capabilities, more of a fix of Fighter/Scout damage wise. At least that is what I've always pictured it as, since I've played a lot of MMORPGs and paper and pencil games with monks. That is my two rusty but still valueable, two cents __________________ Faelor the Forest Stalker Founder and Admin of ForestStalker.com (formerly Vanguard Rangers) Officer of Halcyon Affinity Blog: Working As Intended

11-07-2005, 12:51 PM	#1
Hzor Loremaster Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 29	I have feeling that EQ2 slowly moving in to EQ1 way. All DoF+ changes make EQ2 more like EQ1. I remember, that in manual and site was mentioned that this game will have same mechanix for both DW and 2H weapons with a bit less dps for 1H (becouse you can have HUGE defence boost with shields) If you remember in EQ1 DW was always better dps then 2H and WAY better than 1H weaps. Lets see way EQ2 moves in to EQ1 direction: 1. SoE added free shield to Brawlers - like they have alwais shield with them - even when DW-ing. It was implemented long time ago (like 6 months or maybe more). Why ? i cant understand actually. If Plate tank need to be MT in group, and group killing really chalengingn things - they need to wear shield+1H instead of 2H (Warriors and Crusaders). Brawlers still can use their 2H ers since they have ALWAIS shields with them. Why ? WHy not to give them option to ? So if brawler want to be MT on some challenging mobs ( aka almost orange when exp-ng ) they will need to wear shield like it was implemented in early game ? 2. LU13 increasing DPS of brawlers even more than prior - agayn i smell eq1 here - monks have there really cool dps (ofcourse not compared to roques and wizards but..) 3. Isnt in manual mentioned that 2H and DW weaps have SAME dps ? Yes, it is. But now SoE decided to move in to EQ1 direction even more in dps aspect of game. Now it will make even more difference between Brawlers dps - which CAN and WILL use DW and Crusaders - wich CANT AT ALL !!!. Also increasing DW dps will make brawlers tanking really trivial. Everyone know that more dps - more agro Already having Best dps (ok almost same with scout class) helping them alot with agro, so increasing will have them really big + abowe all other tanks Will not be surprised if they will abla to hold agro with just autoattack on with 1 taunt casting ( ill check it after update on my RL friends 60 bruiser i often play atm) No one of plate tanks can afford to tank with DW (of course if mob not blue or white noob) since we loosing alot without shields. I am not complaining - i tryed already. Just playing my new 34lvl Ranger alt atm (will try to get that 70% exp to finaly ding my guardian 60). now i can see really DIFFERENT game - very nice and interesting. Any mob which not orange i can kill in 3 shots maxinum - they dieing even prior they can reach me in melee. Easy killing blue heroics without any adept3 arts. I can sneak and make 3x more quests per given time than my guardian, if something goes wrong - evac is your friend ! Mob is hard ? then just kite it and avoide close combat etc. Yes Soe you really made different games for different classes. Playing guardian now not even close with fun to any other class (exept clerics i think but they atleast have their primary role not nerfed so bad). Dont know mabe Guardian extra cool for some raid tanking T6 mobs, but... whole game not only raiding some noob need 60lvl of exping / questing to get to the raid part of game. And buck to original idea - SoE please just tell now in patch notes : With todays increasing of DW dps we need to introduce you new role of fighters classes 1. Brawlers - even more dps than ever, best tank with DW (with reducing repostes) and best agro holders 2. Crusaders - only support class for brawlers, current patch makes them fall behinde in dps even more. 3.Warriors - Zerkers : looks like can benefit of DW update couse of some they skills. Guardians : hmm maybe good for something but we dont know atm for what and in which situations we hope we will finde 2-3 encounters suited for guardians so you can play them 1-2 day per months Anyway Dinosaurus gone long time ago. Looks like same happened with Guardians. Ok nothing we can do here. SoE decide that Brawlers new UBER MUST HAVE class. We cant change anything. So ill just play my Ranger till Vanguard . Haik 59 Guardian Neriak P.S. Sorry for English

11-07-2005, 02:23 PM	#2
Laute Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 8	Brawlers get deflection because it makes more sense for them not to have one. You give Brawlers a shield, you eliminate some of the class fluff and flavor. Might as well call Guardians "Noodle Boys," Zerkers "Rice Dumplings," and Bards should just be replaced by pop-tarts because, after all, class flavor doesn't matter.That aside, every fighter is intended to tank. That's why we have an archetype system. Sounds to me rather unlike EQ1, where from what I've heard, it's always one class tanks or none.I can't say a whole lot about the DPS increase. Shrug They were supposed to have lost some. They're supposed to do good damage for fighters. If they're not, it's just an issue that needs to be fixed. I've full confidence that they will.And yes, 2h and Dual Wield weapons are supposed to be about the same in terms of strength. Instead of just saying that DW is now far superior to anything else, maybe it was a little lacking for? Attack speed and proc rates could very well have been lacking beforehand. Have you tracked damage from a variety of classes for the last month and compared DPS rates over time? If you have, then I apologize, but if not, yeesh. Jumping to conclusions much?

11-07-2005, 02:33 PM	#3
QQ-Fatman Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 538	This is only because DW weapons are too weak compared to 2handers now because of the low proc rate. The actual proc rate* = proc % x weapon delay / 3. It means the slower the weapon, the higher chance to proc. It matter a lot when you use combat arts to trigger ptoc effect. So this patch is actually a "fix" of DW wepaons' disadvantage and it has nothing to do to brawlers. Right now a good brawler knows to use 2handers to have better dps and lower chance to get riposte. After Lu16, DW weapons will be the same as 2handers so we'll just have more weapon choice. *proc formula: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=30217#M30217 Message Edited by QQFatman on 11-07-2005 04:36 AM

11-07-2005, 05:55 PM	#7
Danter General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 321	Stop complaining about DW, half the Brawlers don't use it anyway. You shouldn't be complaining because Crusaders are now uber tanks that can now equip symbols which give +mitigation and +resists. Show me a sheath that has those stats.

11-07-2005, 09:22 PM	#10
brow27 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 328	Danterus wrote: Stop complaining about DW, half the Brawlers don't use it anyway. You shouldn't be complaining because Crusaders are now uber tanks that can now equip symbols which give +mitigation and +resists. Show me a sheath that has those stats. Please show me a symbol that has +mit on it, I've never seen one.

11-07-2005, 09:37 PM	#11
QQ-Fatman Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 538	brow27 wrote: Please show me a symbol that has +mit on it, I've never seen one. http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=a11&message.id=2671

11-08-2005, 07:36 PM	#12
Ookami-san Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Allentown, PA Posts: 336	Dalick wrote: One thing I wanted to note.. As of Luclin 2 Hand weapons were king in EQ1. There was no beating the same tier DW weapon combo with a smae tier 2HB. It dose not matter anyway. Having a differance between weapons is a good thing. It gives pros and cons to using one style instead of another. Each have thier uses though wich means its a situational thing. It's not situational at all, as some classes cannot use 2H weapons... so they are never in a situation where using a 2H is better. __________________ _____________________________________ Life is pain Princess! Anyone who tells you differently, is selling something!

11-09-2005, 05:22 AM	#13
Despak Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 424	QQFatman wrote: brow27 wrote: Please show me a symbol that has +mit on it, I've never seen one. http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=a11&message.id=2671 [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], sod the mitigation. Range slots with +60 to all melee skills. I better never hear a Paladin whine about his melee skills again when they get these.

11-09-2005, 05:55 AM	#14
Fulsta Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 5	Despak look again, it's vs those types of damage. Not adding to their melee skills.

11-09-2005, 06:23 PM	#15
Teche Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 115	ErikShafer wrote: I just though I should mention that Monk DPS is just as good as Wizzy if not better, Personally, saying that I havn't had a brawler past level 18 I just thought id mention that you are wrong. __________________ Phenom

11-09-2005, 06:56 PM	#16
Kenazeer Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,178	Fulsta wrote: Despak look again, it's vs those types of damage. Not adding to their melee skills. I am not usre if he took it wrong or just worded it poorly. However, the +60 vs. to pierce/slash/crushing does have the net effect of adding 60 mitigation. Not a lot mind you, but coupled with all the stats and other saves 60 mitigation is pretty nice. __________________ Come play EQ2...we have SOEmote, Dungeon Finder, and Dungeon Maker.

11-09-2005, 07:51 PM	#17
Despak Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 424	Kenazeer wrote: Fulsta wrote:Despak look again, it's vs those types of damage. Not adding to their melee skills. I am not usre if he took it wrong or just worded it poorly. However, the +60 vs. to pierce/slash/crushing does have the net effect of adding 60 mitigation. Not a lot mind you, but coupled with all the stats and other saves 60 mitigation is pretty nice. Thanks, yeah I worded it poorly. But in essence they are getting a damned good amount of mitigation when you add the fact that their kite shields are exactly the same as full tower shields, coupled with buffs, heals, nukes, plate armour. Looking forward to reading the Guardians response to this lot.

11-09-2005, 08:04 PM	#18
Dalick Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 53	Crusaders have other benifits that work for them when it comes to how much DMG they do. Heals for one as a Paladin ( Not sure on much for the SK I have not had enough interest in them to look them up. ). 2H or 1H is the choice of DMG over mid. thats the situational point for a Crusader. A Brawler uses a 2HB when he/she wants to take less DMG on ripostes. Personaly I prefer DW to 2HB on my Monk and my Bruiser. Either way I dont see this change making a huge DPS differance... well any more than there already is. __________________ =^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^=^ =^=^=^=^ Dalick Bloodclaw Monk/Tailor Remnoq Bloodclaw Conjuror/Armorer Veldore Bloodclaw Berzerker/Provisioner Zectash Bloodclaw Druid/Jeweler Zorlach Bloodclaw Shaman/Alchemist Miqlee Bloodclaw Ranger/Woodworker

11-09-2005, 08:14 PM	#19
QuantumSingulari Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: St. Louis Posts: 5	yea, bruiser/monk dps doesn't compare to mages dps, well atleast Necro or Conjuror DPS. I think brawlers are a very well rounded class. Just wish sony would get everybody else's classes right. As having a bruiser myself i still think a 2hander will do the same dps as DW instead of more, so like said earlier...it's just opening up more weapon choices.

11-09-2005, 08:25 PM	#20
Ookami-san Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Allentown, PA Posts: 336	http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=a11&message.id=2671 The question everyone should be asking is... since we're getting new "charm" slots... will other classes (ie. rogues, etc.) be able to use these symbols in the charm slots... or will it remain dolls only in charm slots and crusaders get an extra slot for "secondary" symbols. Hmmm... I'd much rather have one of those symbols I think than a T6 doll. __________________ _____________________________________ Life is pain Princess! Anyone who tells you differently, is selling something!

11-09-2005, 08:25 PM	#21
Ayu Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 4	Am I only the only one who can't find anything about a DW DPS increase in this patch? Is this about them proc'ing more? Give me a break. Worst case scenario is that they'll actually beginning going off at the displayed rate. I wouldn't call this a DPS increase of any magnitude that would cause your reaction unless you're just insecure about your ability to tank as is. This is nothing but straight up brawler hate because somebody feels slighted after the combat update. Guardians and Crusaders are still wanted in groups, it's not like monks and bruisers have become the "must have" class in groups. You seem to just be irked because we're now an option instead of a joke for tanking.

11-09-2005, 10:27 PM	#22
judged_one Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Toronto Posts: 184	Brawler1.) Tier 2 to 1 DPS2.) Can buff to 4000+ Mit3.) Can increase avoidance to 70%+4.) Can self heal for 2-3 k5.) 30 sec immune to stun, aoe (seize mind)6.) FD7.) Can stun and knock back target when duelling8.) Long duration stun that work like a mez9.) Liek all tank you get a special buff to certain dmg type. (Mental?) Can't remember.Yeah they are slightly overpowered after LU 16

11-09-2005, 11:00 PM	#23
Al Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 88	Know what you're talking about before you start posting brawler are overpowered. 1) T1 to T2 DPS in a exp grp with extremely short fights. Parse a raid and you will see a lvl 60 bruiser with all ad3, rare weps will be t3-t4 dps. 2) Can buff to 4000 miti while in defensive stance for 30 seconds max WHILE being stunned. They fixed close mind so we can no longer have the extra mitigation without the penalties. 3) I have 3 fabled, all ad3, +3 deflection wrist, 368 AGI, and I can only self buff 66.8% avoidance. A guard can easily achieve that + superior mitigation in a raid. 4) I can self heal max of 37% of my health at ad3 every 90 secs and it costs power(didnt used to), try again. 5) Close Mind doesnt block all stuns, stifles contrary to what it says in the description, I would rather have monk skill tsunami anyday of the week. 6) FD - Yea you got me on that one. 7) All fighter classes can stun, you obviously havent dueled much. 24 sec mez that breaks once damaged, whats so overpowered about that? 9) I get buff to poison being a bruiser, just the same as a guard gets a buff to heat.

11-10-2005, 03:22 AM	#24
Raijinn Community Relations Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 406	Shutting thread down, multiple reposts and spamming message. __________________ Regards, Joel "Raijinn" Sasaki