We *are* a DPS class - and we will FIGHT!!

[Jay]

The changes coming in LU 20 look really bad. We know some form of them will go in to correct our damage and balance us out with the other classes. At least, that's the intention.

 

Now, we know how SOE develops software (with a sledgehammer) so we know we're probably going to get kicked back to the old days of T2 or T3 DPS. Don't get me wrong, I really, really hope our damage is still decent and we really are comparable to sorcs and assassins. But I fear this is just the pendulum swinging BACK toward 'Ineffective' and away from 'Holy Crap!' where we've been since LU13. These changes will likely have unintended consequences and affect us more severely than SOE wants.

 

So what do we do? We fight. We are a DPS class and we will not give up our damage. We don't walk away in droves, scream at the Devs, hate on other classes and each other. We stick together, we stay focused, we fight HARD. Our community has been a very cohesive group for a while now, and while things have been more tumultuous here for the last several months, you cannot deny that this is an active community with some very passionate people. Even those who I've argued with directly, I recognize that we have one thing in common: that we care passionately about the ranger class.

 

I realize people are going to vent for a while - go for it. Commiseration and sympathy will be in ample supply, and I've special ordered a LOT of extra ale for the coming months. But get the venting out of your system and if you care about this class, get ready to buckle down. Maybe I'm just sensing the winds of change blowing at hurricane force and this is all an overreaction (before the point of seeing them live no less) but maybe not. I think we'll end up doing less damage than SOE intends, and I think they're going to need our help to restore us to Tier 1, alongside sorcerors.

 

Don't misunderstand me: the DPS that we've known since LU13 is history. It's gone. R.I.P, Super Rangers - it was fun while it lasted, c'est la vie. I'm fine with that, I'll get over it and move on. What I am NOT fine with is having the primary purpose of my class - ranged DPS - be scuttled to the point of mediocrity. DPS is not everything in this game, but it's our main role - and SOE does not want to change that.

 

So don't wake up on the first day of LU20 and fear that you're confronting the future of your class. We may get hit hard, but we've always been a tenacious, persistant bunch. We can overcome this too, if we forego the infighting and hatred. Don't fall into that, it will only hurt us all in the long run.

 

I hope enough of us stick this out, and work together to make it through the long haul. I'm going to do my best to endure. I hope you will too.

 

[theorbell]

Thanks Jay, I know most of the community is with you, though we may not be easy to hear at times.

[BtilTheMage]

While I'll be the first to admit Ranger damage was too high, the nerf is much more severe then it needed to be.  Only thing I can recommend is to post like mad wherever you can.  Even though it doesn't seem to work for Sorcerers, it couldn't hurt.  Maybe you guys could hop in the next t1 damage thread with the Wizards/Warlocks if the patch goes through.

[Jay]

---

BtilTheMage wrote:

While I'll be the first to admit Ranger damage was too high, the nerf is much more severe then it needed to be. 

---

I don't think you'll find anyone here that will disagree with you there.

Right now, we know some things about these changes, and we can already start brainstorming to figure out how we'll hit the ground running come LU 20. This will definitely change our decisions about poisons, for instance.  We've got some people who are very good with analysis and the whole 'math' thing (I'm not one of 'em), so I'm very interested to see what else we can come up with as a community.

[AfflictedOne]

Well as for poisons.  You basically go back to the pre combat revamp thoughts.   You look for a high dot poison.  Which is really what melee classes should have been using atm since they will do more damage over time with it.  The higher dot poisons actually do more damage per proc, it just takes more time to do it.  If you proc less you have more time to see the full effect of the ticks.This does look like it's gonna seriously hamper the ranger solo ability tho unless other changes are put in.  Like ranged arts being cast on the move again or some better damage melee attacks.

[Laia]

Thanks, Kaeros.  We'll get through this one.I was a Ranger in EQ1.  If I lived through that, and thrived, I can certainly handle this.

[Gumbercules]

This is going to be a hard hitter but we should be able to overcome it all.we have been in hard times before and so have other class. we are not to damaged as some other classes are/werewe will just have to watch how things go.Stay safe have Fun

[taeda]

Kaeros,

 

 I may not be on your server, but if I was I would buy you an ale.  Heck, I would buy you 100 ales!  This post was the most constructive and hopeful post I have seen on the subject of the upcoming changes and for that... thank you.  If there is anything I can do to help with finding solutions or keeping up Ranger Morale, anyone can find me on the Antonia Bayle Server under the name Liriav. I love being a ranger and I know we will get through the rough stuff and have some fun.

 

 

 

 Liriav

 Ayr'Dal Ranger, Full Time Cookie Monster

 Fellowship of the Dragon

 Antonia Bayle Server

[KdB]

Re: We *are* a DPS class - and we will FIGHT!!

 

Been there, done that. The warlocks in beta, before LU13, were deluging the devs with complaints about the nerfing of their damage and change of primary role.

 

Didn't make any difference at all. If Sony decides to nerf an overpowered class, they hit hard and don't ever change their minds. 

 

 

[Cron]

As always Kae, I'll be there to fight with ya. You've been an inspiration to many Rangers here and I don't think it will be to hard for you to rally them to this cause. I wish I had 1/10 your communication skills and your patience. Fight on Brother!

[Skratttt]

Im with my predator bretheren on this one....

I dont want to have my goody good brothers bring bad name to the predator familly!!

PROC BALANCE= GOOD, BUT NERFAGE WITHOUT COMPENSATION= EXTREEMELY BAD

[Jayad]

lol pretty funny.  Uh we already cast our CAs as fast as possible, do you really think some high DOT poison is going to help?  I would be very surprised if your DOT poison procs once on a typical single heroic mob after this change.  There's no 'strategy' to figure out - we're dead as a real dps class.  Wouldn't surprise me at all if the swashy/brigands do more than we do after this change, so roll one of them and get a lot more utility with the same dps.

 

 

[Goozman]

Pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] if they are trying to balance ranger dmg with poisons to sorcerer damage. Rangers dont really do anything but damage, whereas sorcerers (and I play a wiz) get several buffs that increase the damage of the group. If after this nonsense, rangers using legendary poisons are doing the same damage as wizards or warlocks, than they really f'ed up

 

They should just lower the damage on poisons, and give casters potions that add crap to offensive spells (they can do that now)

[Poochymama]

I do think you guys are getting hit kinda hard.

Perhaps you could join the Sorcerors in getting what needs to be done accomplished. With the combined voices of Rangers and Sorcerors that should be alot of people.

[Poochymama]

---

Goozman wrote:

Pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] if they are trying to balance ranger dmg with poisons to sorcerer damage. Rangers dont really do anything but damage, whereas sorcerers (and I play a wiz) get several buffs that increase the damage of the group. If after this nonsense, rangers using legendary poisons are doing the same damage as wizards or warlocks, than they really f'ed up

 

They should just lower the damage on poisons, and give casters potions that add crap to offensive spells (they can do that now)

---

According to the Devs Ranger DPS is supposed to be = with Sorceror DMG not greater than.

[Goozman]

---

Poochymama p wrote:

---

Goozman wrote:

Pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] if they are trying to balance ranger dmg with poisons to sorcerer damage. Rangers dont really do anything but damage, whereas sorcerers (and I play a wiz) get several buffs that increase the damage of the group. If after this nonsense, rangers using legendary poisons are doing the same damage as wizards or warlocks, than they really f'ed up

 

They should just lower the damage on poisons, and give casters potions that add crap to offensive spells (they can do that now)

---

According to the Devs Ranger DPS is supposed to be = with Sorceror DMG not greater than.

---

Based off what though... do rangers have to buy [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] to be able to match the damage of mages who stand back and press buttons? That's unfair... poisons should be somewhat of a bonus; especially to a class which offers relatively nothing but damage.

Right now, if a ranger uses no poison, they are far under sorcerer damage... and it's much worse on multimob encounters.

Message Edited by Goozman on 02-15-200608:11 PM

[TrigunVash]

Well, nothing much we can do but sit and watch what happens. i calculated about a 30-40% dps decrease from what we are at now, were not like wizard classes and such, we got no group buffs, not really any great debuffs. We are basically nothing but ranged dps, its what we thrive for. Not like we dont pay through the nose unlike any other class for spells, poisons and arrows.o well, high maintinece T6 dps class with no group buffs FTW

Message Edited by TrigunVash on 02-15-200608:34 PM

[KannaWhoopass]

Im gonna say it

 

I TOLD YOU SO .......

 

a few weeks ago while they were in nerf ranger part 1 and SOA was hit ..and the poison proc off one hand and the hand held weapons not procing thru bow shots.

 

i remember people say ohhh no you are so wrong ..the whining mages wond affect our class .. we are he happy dev loving bunch who get change thru calm constructive communication . BS

 

well here it is ...we suck . mages got nothing ..we got nefed. ..while mages came into the forums and posted falsly that they were rangers and made exagerated claims on doing 3000 dps ..and how they felt they should be nerfed ..ya said nothing ..while wizards came in here posting that they are sooo hard done by and couldnt get it thru their heads that parsers only show'd a portion of their dps contributions ..we said ohhh we agree we need a nerf to our dps cause parsers show our dps mixed in with the buffs from the group .. ooohhh we are sooo op.

 

when wizards and rangers could solo the same mobs ..and would die to the same mobs ...yeah we needed fixing! BS

 

Picture it in yer mind now .. you are out soloing, beside you stands a wizard you are both hunting ^^ blue or white mobs.

 

the wiz beside you leads of with his root spell .. you lead off with culling the weak ..or stealth attack ..no poison procs ..the mob is runing at you .

the wiz hammers the mob with a dot or ice commet ..mob is still rooted.

 

you fire off a quick double shot ..poison doesnt proc (can't get stun to land) .

 

wiz casts another root to keep mob pined, the mob is at you you stun it and try to back away ..quick shot is used up ..try tripple shot ..stun over mob is on you ..cant get off triple shot ..time for hand to hand ..... swing 60 points swing 90 points .. trying to get a stun poison to proc off of yer one hand ,swing, swing . mob is still at 70%

 

wiz lands a bomb on the mob his is at 20% and breaks the root starts in on the wizard the wiz takes a hit (perhaps the mob rooted itself hiting the wiz?)

but if no wiz casts a root and backs away.

 

ranger swing swing mob at 60% ranger taking damage from mob ..ranger stuned 4 seconds ....stifled ......ranger health down to 50% trying to get away from mob. cheap shot is back stun the mob back up use quick shot  and pray to god you can proc a poison this time .....cause if you dont ....you are dead! 

 

wizard lands his last nuke on the mob ...waits a second for power ...starts in on the second ....

 

ranger is runing backwards in circles firing a shot every 5 -7 seconds praying for a stun proc to land so he can use triple shot  or try to get lucky with a few SOA and hope he can keep the stun going .........

 

this is why the ranger paid 6G for the poison ...this is why he is in T1 dps list ..so he can run in circles backward firing debilitating arrow when it refreshes ..and on auto attack .....hoping for that 25% chance every 7 seconds to proc his poison .

 

You cant get your stun poison to proc ..  you are stuck in hand to hand on auto attack cause ya only have 2 attacks for non stealth non positional meele. You are fighting as well as a brigand or swashie 12 levels or more lower than you. ...at this point a furry can out dps you.

 

 

This is your future ...........

Message Edited by KannaWhoopass on 02-15-200609:07 PM

Message Edited by KannaWhoopass on 02-15-200609:14 PM

[KnightOfTheWo]

Kanna...I think I might see your point here...but what exactly is your solution? I seem to be missing it...

[KannaWhoopass]

Simple leave our procs alone!!!!!!

adjust poison dps chnage affencive stance ...do whatever you want but leave proc% alone.

It is how rangers compensate for not having a root.

 

We pay gold to BUY a root capacity so we can solo ..simple as that ..if i cant root a mob with the same reliability as a wizard im broken ..more so than a wiz i need to keep a mob off me ... When a wiz is being hit he has access to all of his DPS at any range. when im stuck in hand to hand im toast ...i have died to green ^^ mobs in SC when my stun poison drops and im not ready. i have 10 levels on those things .. and i cant toe to toe fight one.

a wizard would nuke the thing to ashes before he died toe to toe.

I would say this nerf would be the same as saying to a wizard ... your root spell is now a 75% fizzle. but its worse cause how often do you think ill land a stun off hand to hand to give me a chance to back up ... and use any of my attacks ...as it is now cheap shot is over soooo fast i cant get off tripple shot with it.

Poison = lifeblood of a Ranger ......nerf procs = Offenceive stance nerf = Poison nerf = Gleaming strike nerf all in one ......combine that with the no proc of hand weapons thru bow and poison procs off 1 hand ......BS Nerf sooo over the top i told my guild i may not be here for expansion.

I have Raid attendance of 90% over the past 4 months .....If you can upset a guy like me enough to leave the game .. SOE dont buy the new server hardware ya wont need it.

The proc rate was needed for rangers ...25% chance to land poison so what on tripple shot we had a 75% chance to stun.. If they turned thorny trap into an unbreakable 10 second root ..perhaps that would compensate ....but i doubt it. 

 

[Axor]

Guys i really hope u have better luck than us guardians :smileysad:

We were like you are now pre lu13, where the tank was guardian no matter of what. They nerfed us and things coming are even worse. Our aa's are mostly for DPS since most of guardians dont raid and then they need some dps to be able to solo low lvl quests. shame.

Honestly i did a ranger and i had load of fun while that lasted, got him to 54 and was going to be my main. Now with that coming i guess i will stick to my 60 nerfed toon, sigh.

I really hope to you the best of lucks trying to mitigate that nerf, but from the guardian experience im not very optimist.

We been trying to get posts from devs on guardian forums over months and i think last post we saw was a joke from blackguard on an offtopic post. Nothing else been posted since the famous : "Guardians are the unsung heroes of this game, they have the best skills to protect group members of being damaged". By moorgard.

Really, good luck :smileysad:

[Hubo]

I agree with Jay (Kaeros)....pull up your hoods (if we get some), restring your bows and be prepared for a siege. We'll get though this.

[Keredh]

Jay,

I am generally most supportive of where you are coming from on these issues and I will, despite my more melancholic "get it out of the system" post elsewhere, stick with the class I've always loved in RPG/MMORPG.

I wonder though. EQ2 changes the role of a ranger significantly from its other incarnations elsewhere and damage - whilst not everything in the game - is our primary utility, indeed our only real utility, at the high end of the game.

Our combat arts alone should not place us at the top of the t1 tree. Period. However, that isn't the mechanic of the ranger in this game. Our damage is done by poisons (something it took me a long time to get comfortable with).

I took a quick look at the utility a wizard brings to a group beyond their apparent role as the top DPS: roots, bind sight on allies, cure arcane on allies, dispel magic on allies, see invis for allies, stifling, power and damage procs on allies, augmentations for power, strength and intelligence for the group, evac and power feeding. Don't get me wrong. I have no problem with any of those abilities, many of which have kept me alive. But to have that ability and complain that they are not the top of tree with DPS in all circumstances (find me a ranger who tops another tier one class on combat arts alone) strikes me as plain wrong. And for SOE not to recognise the imbalance in the classes as a whole, with our lack of utility, is also poor judgement.

What utility do we bring? We have no group sneak. We have evac - as do sorcerers. We have pathfinding. But I have not been in a zone requiring a run-speed buff where the other members have needed it for months - they have carpets and horses that are faster. We have tracking - but most folk navigate faster with EQmap. The only utility we brought, at substantial cost to ourselves, was damage. Let's be honest. How many of us regularly use more than two concentration slots?

I agree we will need a fix. I simply wish they hadn't "fixed" us in this manner in the first place. This was a very lazy way of addressing concerns.

As I said at the beginning, of course I will stick with the class. I am not as convinced, however, that they will intend to "fix" us in the future.

Best of luck all.

Ker

[Cron]

---

KannaWhoopass wrote:

Im gonna say it

 

I TOLD YOU SO .......

 

a few weeks ago while they were in nerf ranger part 1 and SOA was hit ..and the poison proc off one hand and the hand held weapons not procing thru bow shots.

 

i remember people say ohhh no you are so wrong ..the whining mages wond affect our class .. we are he happy dev loving bunch who get change thru calm constructive communication . BS

 

well here it is ...we suck . mages got nothing ..we got nefed. ..while mages came into the forums and posted falsly that they were rangers and made exagerated claims on doing 3000 dps ..and how they felt they should be nerfed

---

And through all of our talk you missed the point. I remember nobody saying the mages whining wouldn't lead to a nerf. The only thing I remember is a core group of people saying "stop getting worked up. We have been down this road before and we got through it through calm discussion". I understand the need to vent. However, an arguement was never won with anger or who could swear the most. You have two choices here if you wish to work towards change. You can continue being a victim and have an "oh woe is me attitude" or you can be a fighter an actively work to get see change.Which one you want to be Whoop? A victim or a fighter? Wait for the change. Do your research. Get your numbers and FACTS. Post them to the forum. PM them to Blackguard and ask him to forward it on. Use /feedback. However, the moment you say "we suck. The devs suck. The game sucks" you might as well stop posting because the devs stop listening.As to your point, this is why I try not to brag of any success I had in the game. To many people see it, don't understand or don't care, but want it for their class and start beating others down.

[Xtr]

You were completely overpowered and you all know it.Welcome to where you should have been a year ago.

[Taubin]

---

XtreX wrote:You were completely overpowered and you all know it.Welcome to where you should have been a year ago.

---

Please go be a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] somewhere else

[Blackin_DeMast]

I'm with ya jay.  I'm not going anywhere and will help in any way possible.

[coltla]

I'm patching for Beta now, I'll check out the changes, if they are like we've been told I'm gonna write the longest "/feedback" ever.

[Memory]

---

coltlane wrote:I'm patching for Beta now, I'll check out the changes, if they are like we've been told I'm gonna write the longest "/feedback" ever.

---

give me a /tell Aegyen when ya there ill parse you Im so with ya Jay. We Roll together, we Die together - Rangers for Life ! :smileywink:

[Tobann]

Well just wanted to put in my 2 copper worth. From having been through this with a Guardian already it seems the tendency,in my opinion, is to equalize all classes. I dont agree with this,but Im not a developer. It seems the development team doesnt want any class to stand out. The posted messages all say there shouldnt be a "best" of anything. My opinion is the opposite. I feel there should be a best DPS class for instance. Whichever class that is it should be a specilist in DPS. As an offset that class should also have less overall utility.So if Class X can produce the most DPS they will also have to least amount of group buffs, protects etc. In that way players can decide if they want to be a specilist in one area or be more versatile. I think both would be desirable for groups and no one would be unhappy. As it is trying to make all tank classes "equal" and Tier 1 DPS equal is going to be an effort in futility,in my opinion.Buaf  53 Ranger