Utility abilities available?

Rubika · 02-17-2006, 03:25 AM

Hi! I just signed up for EQII, and was considering being a Bard class. I was a Bard in EQI way back when, and one of the reasons I loved being a bard is they had so many different abilties, including:

- Group Run Speed

- Group Invis/See Invis

- Group HP regen

- Group Power regen

- Group Stamina regen

- Group Levitation

- Group Underwater breathing

- Group Haste

- Group Stat/resistance/AC/Defense buffs

- Group wards (damage absorbtion)

- Group damage shields (anything that hits them takes damage)

- Charm

- Mez

- Calm (reduce aggro range, useful for pulling)

- Increase faction rating with target's faction

- Ilusions to go to any city (via Bard/Rogue items)

- Item identification

- Resist debuffs

- Group Vision enhancement buffs

- Fear

- Confuse

- Snare

- Slow

- Damage (DD and DoT)

- Food/water replacement

- Blink (short range random teleport)

- Dispel (remove buffs/debuffs)

- See-through-target's-eyes buff

- Cure poison/disease

- Group temp. invulnerability

So, as you can see, the EQ1 bard was truly the jack-of-all-trades, moreso than any other class in any other MMO I've played (and I've played pretty much all of them).

Now my question is - of the above list, which ones can a Dirge do, and which ones can a Troubador do? And is there any other class that would be better than either for doing a lot of different stuff?

I know there are spell lists but it seems the game has gone through a lot of updating recently and I'm not sure how many abilities on those lists are accurate. So hopefully one of you has a better idea...

Thanks in advance!

ZeroRavesOn · 02-17-2006, 04:17 AM

Rubikant wrote:
Hi! I just signed up for EQII, and was considering being a Bard class. I was a Bard in EQI way back when, and one of the reasons I loved being a bard is they had so many different abilties, including:

- Group Run Speed Both
- Group Invis/See Invis Neither
- Group HP regen Troubador
- Group Power regen Both
- Group Stamina regen N/A
- Group Levitation Neither (there is no Levitiate effect in eq2 atm)
- Group Underwater breathing Neither (as far as I know this belongs only to priests in eq2)
- Group Haste Troubador
- Group Stat/resistance/AC/Defense buffs Both
- Group wards (damage absorbtion) Neither
- Group damage shields (anything that hits them takes damage) Neither
- Charm Troubador
- Mez Troubador
- Calm (reduce aggro range, useful for pulling) Neither (Troubadors have a song that reduces total aggfro generation, and dirges have one that can single target, increase aggro generation, but range belongs only to clerics, i believe)
- Increase faction rating with target's faction Neither
- Ilusions to go to any city (via Bard/Rogue items) Neither (guards ignore illusion/race and look only at faction)
- Item identification Neither (Not Applicable to eq2)
- Resist debuffs Both
- Group Vision enhancement buffs Neither
- Fear Dirge
- Confuse Neither
- Snare Both (both have single target snares, dirges have an enounter wide snare/slow)
- Slow Dirge
- Damage (DD and DoT) Both
- Food/water replacement Neither
- Blink (short range random teleport) Neither
- Dispel (remove buffs/debuffs) Neither
- See-through-target's-eyes buff Neither (only mages have this in eq2)
- Cure poison/disease Neither
- Group temp. invulnerability Both, sort of (Dirges have a song that can proc invul. vs the next melee hit, and Troubadors have a song that procs a reflection effect to the next magical hit)

So, as you can see, the EQ1 bard was truly the jack-of-all-trades, moreso than any other class in any other MMO I've played (and I've played pretty much all of them).

Now my question is - of the above list, which ones can a Dirge do, and which ones can a Troubador do? And is there any other class that would be better than either for doing a lot of different stuff?

I know there are spell lists but it seems the game has gone through a lot of updating recently and I'm not sure how many abilities on those lists are accurate. So hopefully one of you has a better idea...
For spells past level 20, they should be pretty up to date. The changes that affected all levels occured in september, so most reputable sites have updated their information. There were changes to spells before level 20 that occurs a few weeks ago, so from 1-19 that data may be a little less reliable.On the aggregate, dirges are Disease-flavored, whereas Troubadors are (I believe) mental. Troubadors also have group resist buffs for elemental (heat/cold) and Arcane (magical/divine/mental) whereas Dirges have a Noxious (Disease/Poison) resist buff. Dirges have a melee proc song, whereas Troubadors have a song that procs on spell casts. For the most part, where one of us has an ability, the other gets a similar but different (needlessly different?) ability, such as the haste you listed above. Troubadors get a haste buff, but Dirges get a +DPS buff which acts as a multiplier to autoattack and autoranged damage.Also our Combat Arts are somewhat differently flavored, in many cases where dirges have weak lifetaps, troubadors get power tapsI would reccomend checking out the spell lists on eq2players.com, paying attention to the spells above level 20. You will find a lot of repetition from there applied in the revamped levels 1-19 too.
Thanks in advance!

Hope that helps.

TalanRM · 02-17-2006, 04:18 AM

Group Run Speed - All Bards

- Group Invis/See Invis - No bards can do this. Rogues can group stealth and enchanters can group invis

- Group HP regen - Troubadours

- Group Power regen - All bards

- Group Stamina regen - No equivelant in EQ2

- Group Levitation - No equilivent in EQ2 as later expansions have wall climbing and one adventure pack has moveable planks to pass over gaps

- Group Underwater breathing - No bards, some casters get this, but there is a quest doable in your 20s which will give you the improved version of the fishbone earring (assuming you remember this from EQ1)

- Group Haste - Troubadours, Dirges get grop DPS (increases base melee damage)

- Group Stat/resistance/AC/Defense buffs - Dirges buff str/ agil; Troubs Sta/ Agil; Dirges buff parry; Troubs buff Defense

- Group wards (damage absorbtion) - At level 52 Dirges a a group proc that as an 11% chance of absorbing the next melee blow

- Group damage shields (anything that hits them takes damage) - Neither bard gets this

- Charm - Troubadours, allot more limited in effect than EQ1

- Mez - Troubadours

- Calm (reduce aggro range, useful for pulling) - Neither bard gets this (some priests and maybe other classes do)

- Increase faction rating with target's faction - N/A: faction is generally easier to get and not as important as EQ1

- Ilusions to go to any city (via Bard/Rogue items) - A large number of illusion items exist in the game. They are all cosmetic and have no effect on faction though

- Item identification - N/A

- Resist debuffs - Dirges buff Noxious; I think Troubs buff Mental and Magic

- Group Vision enhancement buffs - Neither and not a relevant as in EQ1

- Fear - Dirges

- Confuse - Neither

- Snare - All bards

- Slow - Dirges: Group slow (about 25%ish depending upon level)

- Damage (DD and DoT) - Both

- Food/water replacement - Niether

- Blink (short range random teleport) - Neither

- Dispel (remove buffs/debuffs) - Neither

- See-through-target's-eyes buff - Neither (mages can do this)

- Cure poison/disease - Neither

- Group temp. invulnerability - Neither

- Dirges get a hate increase ability (for use on the tank) troubs I think get a hate decrease ability

- Dirge spell damages is disease based; trobadours is mental based

All scouts get personal invis and evac in EQ2.

If you go to EQ players you can see a full spell list for each class.

Dirge have better melee defensive buffs, lifetap, have slight more debuffs, fear and at 44+ can rez.

Troubadours have better caster buffs, health regen and mez (I don't play a Troub so falling short on this list).

Bards in general are very average DPS, but have some useful group buffs and some weakish debuffs. We probably have more tricks up our sleave than most classes but nothing that has that OMG factor. Generally tougher mobs will be easier with a bard grouped but through an accumulation of minor things rather than anything you will be particularly noticed for.

Rubika · 02-17-2006, 04:26 AM

Thanks for the responses! That is helpful.

Out of Troubs and Dirge's which one do groups generally want more? Not so much worried about raids (I doubt I'd ever have time for one) but more for pickup groups.

Novari · 02-17-2006, 04:55 AM

in groups both are rare, but the group is happy when they get a bard (because not many ppl play one), no matter what direction. in Raids the same but there are Dirges a little in front because there debuffs, Hate increasing buff and there ability to Ressurect.

Message Edited by Novarius on 02-16-200603:56 PM

Rubika · 02-17-2006, 05:30 AM

Why do not many people play one? I know in EQ1 they were awesome but rare because of the difficulty of learning song twisting. Since that isn't in EQ2, is there a reason they aren't popular? Is it just the low DPS? Do they suck at soloing? Is it hard to find groups?

ZeroRavesOn · 02-17-2006, 06:44 AM

Rubikant wrote:
Why do not many people play one? I know in EQ1 they were awesome but rare because of the difficulty of learning song twisting. Since that isn't in EQ2, is there a reason they aren't popular? Is it just the low DPS? Do they suck at soloing? Is it hard to find groups?

We do have the lowest DPS of all scout types (in the eptember combat changes there were 5 rough DPS tiers outlined and bards fall in the middle one, above tanks and priests) and soloing is more involved than other classes have. Bards are the only melee class that do not have offensive or defensive stance, which and self only buffs that buff offensive capability at the cost of defensive capability, and vice-versa. Applying our buffs to only ourselves, they are about halfish as effective as other classes. Comparing against a ranger in my guild, going fully defensive I can get my avoidance to about 45%, whereas the ranger can get hers to 61%, with virtually identical mitigation.It is quite easy compared to other classes to get groups, however, as we have very nice buffs, in the scheme of things - especially our mana regen. It's the old adage that everyone wants to be with a bard, but no one wants to be one.Also, I dont recall if it was mentioned earlier or not, but the dirge is more melee slanted, where the troubador is more caster slanted. This manifests in the +skill songs (dirges buffs slashing/piercing/crushing/ranged; troubadors buff subjugation/disruption/ordination/focus, etc), proc songs (the dirges is a proc off melee attacks and combat arts where the troubadors procs off sucessful casts).

Message Edited by ZeroRavesOn on 02-16-200608:48 PM

02-17-2006, 04:17 AM	#2
ZeroRavesOn Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 191	Rubikant wrote: Hi! I just signed up for EQII, and was considering being a Bard class. I was a Bard in EQI way back when, and one of the reasons I loved being a bard is they had so many different abilties, including: - Group Run Speed Both - Group Invis/See Invis Neither - Group HP regen Troubador - Group Power regen Both - Group Stamina regen N/A - Group Levitation Neither (there is no Levitiate effect in eq2 atm) - Group Underwater breathing Neither (as far as I know this belongs only to priests in eq2) - Group Haste Troubador - Group Stat/resistance/AC/Defense buffs Both - Group wards (damage absorbtion) Neither - Group damage shields (anything that hits them takes damage) Neither - Charm Troubador - Mez Troubador - Calm (reduce aggro range, useful for pulling) Neither (Troubadors have a song that reduces total aggfro generation, and dirges have one that can single target, increase aggro generation, but range belongs only to clerics, i believe) - Increase faction rating with target's faction Neither - Ilusions to go to any city (via Bard/Rogue items) Neither (guards ignore illusion/race and look only at faction) - Item identification Neither (Not Applicable to eq2) - Resist debuffs Both - Group Vision enhancement buffs Neither - Fear Dirge - Confuse Neither - Snare Both (both have single target snares, dirges have an enounter wide snare/slow) - Slow Dirge - Damage (DD and DoT) Both - Food/water replacement Neither - Blink (short range random teleport) Neither - Dispel (remove buffs/debuffs) Neither - See-through-target's-eyes buff Neither (only mages have this in eq2) - Cure poison/disease Neither - Group temp. invulnerability Both, sort of (Dirges have a song that can proc invul. vs the next melee hit, and Troubadors have a song that procs a reflection effect to the next magical hit) So, as you can see, the EQ1 bard was truly the jack-of-all-trades, moreso than any other class in any other MMO I've played (and I've played pretty much all of them). Now my question is - of the above list, which ones can a Dirge do, and which ones can a Troubador do? And is there any other class that would be better than either for doing a lot of different stuff? I know there are spell lists but it seems the game has gone through a lot of updating recently and I'm not sure how many abilities on those lists are accurate. So hopefully one of you has a better idea... For spells past level 20, they should be pretty up to date. The changes that affected all levels occured in september, so most reputable sites have updated their information. There were changes to spells before level 20 that occurs a few weeks ago, so from 1-19 that data may be a little less reliable.On the aggregate, dirges are Disease-flavored, whereas Troubadors are (I believe) mental. Troubadors also have group resist buffs for elemental (heat/cold) and Arcane (magical/divine/mental) whereas Dirges have a Noxious (Disease/Poison) resist buff. Dirges have a melee proc song, whereas Troubadors have a song that procs on spell casts. For the most part, where one of us has an ability, the other gets a similar but different (needlessly different?) ability, such as the haste you listed above. Troubadors get a haste buff, but Dirges get a +DPS buff which acts as a multiplier to autoattack and autoranged damage.Also our Combat Arts are somewhat differently flavored, in many cases where dirges have weak lifetaps, troubadors get power tapsI would reccomend checking out the spell lists on eq2players.com, paying attention to the spells above level 20. You will find a lot of repetition from there applied in the revamped levels 1-19 too. Thanks in advance! Hope that helps. __________________ src="http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Icons/pres_small.png" width="72" height="72" /> src="http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Icons/sen_small.png" width="72" height="72" /> src="http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Icons/house_small.png" width="72" height="72" />

02-17-2006, 06:44 AM	#7
ZeroRavesOn Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 191	Rubikant wrote: Why do not many people play one? I know in EQ1 they were awesome but rare because of the difficulty of learning song twisting. Since that isn't in EQ2, is there a reason they aren't popular? Is it just the low DPS? Do they suck at soloing? Is it hard to find groups? We do have the lowest DPS of all scout types (in the eptember combat changes there were 5 rough DPS tiers outlined and bards fall in the middle one, above tanks and priests) and soloing is more involved than other classes have. Bards are the only melee class that do not have offensive or defensive stance, which and self only buffs that buff offensive capability at the cost of defensive capability, and vice-versa. Applying our buffs to only ourselves, they are about halfish as effective as other classes. Comparing against a ranger in my guild, going fully defensive I can get my avoidance to about 45%, whereas the ranger can get hers to 61%, with virtually identical mitigation.It is quite easy compared to other classes to get groups, however, as we have very nice buffs, in the scheme of things - especially our mana regen. It's the old adage that everyone wants to be with a bard, but no one wants to be one.Also, I dont recall if it was mentioned earlier or not, but the dirge is more melee slanted, where the troubador is more caster slanted. This manifests in the +skill songs (dirges buffs slashing/piercing/crushing/ranged; troubadors buff subjugation/disruption/ordination/focus, etc), proc songs (the dirges is a proc off melee attacks and combat arts where the troubadors procs off sucessful casts). Message Edited by ZeroRavesOn on 02-16-200608:48 PM __________________ src="http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Icons/pres_small.png" width="72" height="72" /> src="http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Icons/sen_small.png" width="72" height="72" /> src="http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Icons/house_small.png" width="72" height="72" />

02-17-2006, 03:25 AM	#1
Rubika Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3	Hi! I just signed up for EQII, and was considering being a Bard class. I was a Bard in EQI way back when, and one of the reasons I loved being a bard is they had so many different abilties, including: - Group Run Speed - Group Invis/See Invis - Group HP regen - Group Power regen - Group Stamina regen - Group Levitation - Group Underwater breathing - Group Haste - Group Stat/resistance/AC/Defense buffs - Group wards (damage absorbtion) - Group damage shields (anything that hits them takes damage) - Charm - Mez - Calm (reduce aggro range, useful for pulling) - Increase faction rating with target's faction - Ilusions to go to any city (via Bard/Rogue items) - Item identification - Resist debuffs - Group Vision enhancement buffs - Fear - Confuse - Snare - Slow - Damage (DD and DoT) - Food/water replacement - Blink (short range random teleport) - Dispel (remove buffs/debuffs) - See-through-target's-eyes buff - Cure poison/disease - Group temp. invulnerability So, as you can see, the EQ1 bard was truly the jack-of-all-trades, moreso than any other class in any other MMO I've played (and I've played pretty much all of them). Now my question is - of the above list, which ones can a Dirge do, and which ones can a Troubador do? And is there any other class that would be better than either for doing a lot of different stuff? I know there are spell lists but it seems the game has gone through a lot of updating recently and I'm not sure how many abilities on those lists are accurate. So hopefully one of you has a better idea... Thanks in advance!

02-17-2006, 04:18 AM	#3
TalanRM Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 194	Group Run Speed - All Bards - Group Invis/See Invis - No bards can do this. Rogues can group stealth and enchanters can group invis - Group HP regen - Troubadours - Group Power regen - All bards - Group Stamina regen - No equivelant in EQ2 - Group Levitation - No equilivent in EQ2 as later expansions have wall climbing and one adventure pack has moveable planks to pass over gaps - Group Underwater breathing - No bards, some casters get this, but there is a quest doable in your 20s which will give you the improved version of the fishbone earring (assuming you remember this from EQ1) - Group Haste - Troubadours, Dirges get grop DPS (increases base melee damage) - Group Stat/resistance/AC/Defense buffs - Dirges buff str/ agil; Troubs Sta/ Agil; Dirges buff parry; Troubs buff Defense - Group wards (damage absorbtion) - At level 52 Dirges a a group proc that as an 11% chance of absorbing the next melee blow - Group damage shields (anything that hits them takes damage) - Neither bard gets this - Charm - Troubadours, allot more limited in effect than EQ1 - Mez - Troubadours - Calm (reduce aggro range, useful for pulling) - Neither bard gets this (some priests and maybe other classes do) - Increase faction rating with target's faction - N/A: faction is generally easier to get and not as important as EQ1 - Ilusions to go to any city (via Bard/Rogue items) - A large number of illusion items exist in the game. They are all cosmetic and have no effect on faction though - Item identification - N/A - Resist debuffs - Dirges buff Noxious; I think Troubs buff Mental and Magic - Group Vision enhancement buffs - Neither and not a relevant as in EQ1 - Fear - Dirges - Confuse - Neither - Snare - All bards - Slow - Dirges: Group slow (about 25%ish depending upon level) - Damage (DD and DoT) - Both - Food/water replacement - Niether - Blink (short range random teleport) - Neither - Dispel (remove buffs/debuffs) - Neither - See-through-target's-eyes buff - Neither (mages can do this) - Cure poison/disease - Neither - Group temp. invulnerability - Neither - Dirges get a hate increase ability (for use on the tank) troubs I think get a hate decrease ability - Dirge spell damages is disease based; trobadours is mental based All scouts get personal invis and evac in EQ2. If you go to EQ players you can see a full spell list for each class. Dirge have better melee defensive buffs, lifetap, have slight more debuffs, fear and at 44+ can rez. Troubadours have better caster buffs, health regen and mez (I don't play a Troub so falling short on this list). Bards in general are very average DPS, but have some useful group buffs and some weakish debuffs. We probably have more tricks up our sleave than most classes but nothing that has that OMG factor. Generally tougher mobs will be easier with a bard grouped but through an accumulation of minor things rather than anything you will be particularly noticed for.

02-17-2006, 04:26 AM	#4
Rubika Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3	Thanks for the responses! That is helpful. Out of Troubs and Dirge's which one do groups generally want more? Not so much worried about raids (I doubt I'd ever have time for one) but more for pickup groups.

02-17-2006, 04:55 AM	#5
Novari Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 88	in groups both are rare, but the group is happy when they get a bard (because not many ppl play one), no matter what direction. in Raids the same but there are Dirges a little in front because there debuffs, Hate increasing buff and there ability to Ressurect. Message Edited by Novarius on 02-16-200603:56 PM

02-17-2006, 05:30 AM	#6
Rubika Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3	Why do not many people play one? I know in EQ1 they were awesome but rare because of the difficulty of learning song twisting. Since that isn't in EQ2, is there a reason they aren't popular? Is it just the low DPS? Do they suck at soloing? Is it hard to find groups?