How does a Troubie rate as a scout tank?

tawek · 05-04-2006, 05:53 PM

I've been doing a bit of tanking lately, and seems to me we are pretty good. I'd previously assumed the swashie was the best scout-tank, now I'm unsure.

After level 35, we have four enounter spells: one damage-over-time, one direct-damage, two debuffs. Mobs seem to hate them. I can't hold aggro on a Warlock going full-out, but I was easily keeping the mobs off the healers.

My swashie alt relied on his two point-blank AOE damage attacks when tanking groups, and then, while timers cycled, tabbing through the mobs to keep up aggro. If he were tanking in an area with neutrals, and so couldn't use the AOE, holding aggro on a group was a serious challenge. Life may be easier for a swashie whose got a taunt from AA's, which may, or may not, be as good as Troubie encounter aggro abilities.

Against single mobs, my troubie just kept spamming our two debuffs, overwriting them again and again, as well as dealing out what dps I could. Where the dps weren't overnuking, and especially if they didn't nuke as i was pulling, I seemed to hold aggro fine, and this was with a full group, including a ranger and wizard.

Is my experience typical? Or could it just be a mid-30's toon with lots of master 1's, and it'll be totally different in a few levels when I have to rely on more adept 1's?

What are other people's experiences at scout tanking, with a troubie, or with another scout class?

[Edited for spelling and clarity .. and to say to ShiroiOOkami: "Thanks. Nice trick, canceling the hate reducing song for me only .. I must try that out SMILEY

"]

Message Edited by tawek21 on 05-04-2006 10:15 AM

ShiroiOokami · 05-04-2006, 06:21 PM

Troubs make decent tanks, mainly because they can hold agro through debuffs. Keep in mind, your swashy is probably a better overall tank, at least against single targets. If you have difficulty holding agro, you can cast your hate reducing song, then right click it off on your spell effect list, so it only cancels its effect on you. That should make it much easier to hold agro, especially in the long run.Pre-CU troub's were the best tanks around, and I was often MT for my guild in raids (pure defense buffs). Now, I'd say except for their ability to hold agro, they don't really have any special abilities in tanking. A pred or rogue's defensive stance is significantly better than our defense buff. Overall, I think troubs, especially with the sta AA line have potential to tank decently well - and I've tanked for xp groups before, and even against a green 2x raid mob when we didn't have ANY fighters on, but we're a poor substitute for someone with a defense stance AND taunts.Anyhow, don't let that discourage you from going out there and tanking if you want. It's certainly possible, and as you've pointed our debuffs make it incredibly easy to hold agro. As long as you have a healer and decent DPS you should have no problem fighting most mobs in the game (altho I wouldn't try HoF).

Peston · 05-04-2006, 06:28 PM

Well i have a Swashy and they can tank as long as you keep tuanting and useing moves that increase hate gain... but i mean other then that im a 47 Swashy. But im a higher level then you and that makes a big difference. If I was at your level we could compare the skills that we use to keep hate... Other then that i think they both are a Scout/Tank becuase Swashys have high defence and Troubies have alot of buffs that they can use to be like a Swashy. So you could be right about the Troubies being Scout/Tank... Ill have to look into it SMILEY

vinterskugge · 05-04-2006, 08:31 PM

ShiroiOokami wrote:
Pre-CU troub's were the best tanks around, and I was often MT for my guild in raids (pure defense buffs). Now, I'd say except for their ability to hold agro, they don't really have any special abilities in tanking. A pred or rogue's defensive stance is significantly better than our defense buff. Overall, I think troubs, especially with the sta AA line have potential to tank decently well - and I've tanked for xp groups before, and even against a green 2x raid mob when we didn't have ANY fighters on, but we're a poor substitute for someone with a defense stance AND taunts.

How were troubs the best tank? No taunts, plus guardians existed.

BlueS · 05-04-2006, 08:59 PM

vinterskugge wrote:

ShiroiOokami wrote:Pre-CU troub's were the best tanks around, and I was often MT for my guild in raids (pure defense buffs). Now, I'd say except for their ability to hold agro, they don't really have any special abilities in tanking. A pred or rogue's defensive stance is significantly better than our defense buff. Overall, I think troubs, especially with the sta AA line have potential to tank decently well - and I've tanked for xp groups before, and even against a green 2x raid mob when we didn't have ANY fighters on, but we're a poor substitute for someone with a defense stance AND taunts.

How were troubs the best tank? No taunts, plus guardians existed.

Aye, I think they are meaning tanking when no fighter can be found. On occasion a group must continue without an actual take, so us scouts get stuck with the job since we can hold agro better than most (except maybe wiz, but thier cloth armor makes them a poor choice).I personally have had good luck tanking when there was no fighter around also as a troub. My wife plays a swashie. When we are together and there is no tank around we will take turns tanking, it tends to work pretty well.Of course, nothing is a very good substitute for an actual tank, heh heh

Sanju · 05-04-2006, 09:36 PM

vinterskugge wrote:How were troubs the best tank? No taunts, plus guardians existed.

Pre-LU13 Swan Song > any taunt save rescue.

Kaelos_ · 05-04-2006, 09:59 PM

hehe those were the days.. just cast /recast swan song and u had the attention of every mob in battle. remember when you could stack multiple stat buffs and you could tank yellow ^^^ heroic named. omg.

vinterskugge · 05-04-2006, 10:02 PM

I always found the resist buffs drew a lot more hate than Swan Song.

Kaelos_ · 05-05-2006, 12:17 AM

does that work now or was that prelu13? i havent tested which ones aggro these days.

ShiroiOokami · 05-05-2006, 05:52 AM

I haven't notice buffs giving much hate gain anymore. And pre LU-13 I could self buff defense higher than a guardian for 20 sec out of every 30 or so, and I was equal during the remaining 10 sec.

thorvang · 05-05-2006, 10:48 AM

pre-lu13: swan song and resists song, then add sow and you'll have all the aggro. just recast swan song from time to time to keep it. this combined with high defense and ~500 agi makes a nearly invulnerable tank who is able to keep aggro from all mobs.but it didn't crossed my mind to replace the guards in tanking ^^

Nevari · 05-06-2006, 03:49 AM

But it was fun :p Competing with a warlock going all out and no chance he took aggro from me :smileyvery-happy: Happy days SMILEY

Straygats · 05-06-2006, 06:22 AM

I tank Den the other day, but it wasn't fun, and it wasn't something I enjoy doing. Also, this was in my STR/STA/AGI gear with about 54% avoid. In my intel suit, I'd probably have been toast.I much more enjoy playing in the support/ranged DPS capacity, but It's possible.

Narben Von Nacht · 05-07-2006, 07:45 PM

Our lack of stances is what nails us defensively and I challenge any troub to hold aggro against any other non bard scout class of the same level. Our dps is just so much lower and debuff aggro seems to be much lower (which is actually a good thing, just not helpful if you actually wanted to use it for taunting)The only times I've killed the dragons in PoA we had a brigand tanking. They can self buff mit, they have a real taunt (ie increase threat by X amount) and 3 types of stun.It's sad but we're simply a shadow of our former glory

Krescendo · 05-08-2006, 11:11 PM

My troub is only 17, so nothing other than solo tanking experience. I hold aggro pretty well there, lol.

I regularly two-box my dirge with my templar. With the dirge hate gain/str buff on him the dirge has no problem holding aggro off the templar. Multiple groups, when I might otherwise have a chance, its hard with no AE taunt. You have to debuff and damage each group.

The times I have tanked in regular exp groups, the casters still ae'd and I had to be a target switching fool to try and hold aggro on a large group.

I would guess that the dirge's hate aquiring buff might give him an edge over a troub. Then again, if dirge & troub are in the same group, i can just drop it on the troub and presto.

That said, scouts aren't tanks. With high agility we do well againsts light & fast hitting mob (s). However, as an avoidance tank, the random number generator on a slow big hitter can screw us...exspecially with reactive healing.

That's my take, anyway.

Kasar · 05-12-2006, 02:12 AM

I've noticed that if you keep remezzing a mob, knowing it'll be immediately broken, it seems to get annoyed at you. Of course that won't work when it has a 20s recast.

Godzmodi · 05-13-2006, 11:59 AM

we dont have stances ( defense buff no where near makes up for it) no parry, bards are the worst scout tanks. we get hit for alot more than any other class

Killerbee3000 · 05-13-2006, 03:34 PM

as a troubadour you can tank fine up to like lvl 40, then it changes to you cant tank anything.

Godzmodi · 05-16-2006, 12:46 PM

Killerbee3000 wrote:
as a troubadour you can tank fine up to like lvl 40, then it changes to you cant tank anything.

you can still tank stuff, just you get hit for alot harder than all the other scouts, which is what hte OP was refering to

Aienaa · 05-16-2006, 03:29 PM

as a troubadour you can tank fine up to like lvl 40, then it changes to you cant tank anything.

I can tell you that I have tanked in SoS with my 63 Troubador, but I can also tell you that my Assassin tanks alot better than my Troubador... The difference is that all scout classes, except for Troub and Dirge, have offensive and defensive stances... My Defensive Stance pushes my Avoidance up over 60% while my Troubadors Avoidance sits around 35%.... The result is that the Troubador takes alot more hits than my Assassin...

Gwern - 70 Assassin / Parody - 63 Troubador

05-04-2006, 05:53 PM	#1
tawek Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 144	I've been doing a bit of tanking lately, and seems to me we are pretty good. I'd previously assumed the swashie was the best scout-tank, now I'm unsure. After level 35, we have four enounter spells: one damage-over-time, one direct-damage, two debuffs. Mobs seem to hate them. I can't hold aggro on a Warlock going full-out, but I was easily keeping the mobs off the healers. My swashie alt relied on his two point-blank AOE damage attacks when tanking groups, and then, while timers cycled, tabbing through the mobs to keep up aggro. If he were tanking in an area with neutrals, and so couldn't use the AOE, holding aggro on a group was a serious challenge. Life may be easier for a swashie whose got a taunt from AA's, which may, or may not, be as good as Troubie encounter aggro abilities. Against single mobs, my troubie just kept spamming our two debuffs, overwriting them again and again, as well as dealing out what dps I could. Where the dps weren't overnuking, and especially if they didn't nuke as i was pulling, I seemed to hold aggro fine, and this was with a full group, including a ranger and wizard. Is my experience typical? Or could it just be a mid-30's toon with lots of master 1's, and it'll be totally different in a few levels when I have to rely on more adept 1's? What are other people's experiences at scout tanking, with a troubie, or with another scout class? [Edited for spelling and clarity .. and to say to ShiroiOOkami: "Thanks. Nice trick, canceling the hate reducing song for me only .. I must try that out "] Message Edited by tawek21 on 05-04-2006 10:15 AM

05-04-2006, 06:28 PM	#3
Peston Loremaster Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 44	Well i have a Swashy and they can tank as long as you keep tuanting and useing moves that increase hate gain... but i mean other then that im a 47 Swashy. But im a higher level then you and that makes a big difference. If I was at your level we could compare the skills that we use to keep hate... Other then that i think they both are a Scout/Tank becuase Swashys have high defence and Troubies have alot of buffs that they can use to be like a Swashy. So you could be right about the Troubies being Scout/Tank... Ill have to look into it __________________ -------------------- Perscitus - Created: March 22, 2005 Wood Elf Ranger Level 70 Oasis - The Awakening

05-04-2006, 08:31 PM	#4
vinterskugge Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 696	ShiroiOokami wrote: Pre-CU troub's were the best tanks around, and I was often MT for my guild in raids (pure defense buffs). Now, I'd say except for their ability to hold agro, they don't really have any special abilities in tanking. A pred or rogue's defensive stance is significantly better than our defense buff. Overall, I think troubs, especially with the sta AA line have potential to tank decently well - and I've tanked for xp groups before, and even against a green 2x raid mob when we didn't have ANY fighters on, but we're a poor substitute for someone with a defense stance AND taunts. How were troubs the best tank? No taunts, plus guardians existed.

05-04-2006, 08:59 PM	#5
BlueS General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 150	vinterskugge wrote: ShiroiOokami wrote:Pre-CU troub's were the best tanks around, and I was often MT for my guild in raids (pure defense buffs). Now, I'd say except for their ability to hold agro, they don't really have any special abilities in tanking. A pred or rogue's defensive stance is significantly better than our defense buff. Overall, I think troubs, especially with the sta AA line have potential to tank decently well - and I've tanked for xp groups before, and even against a green 2x raid mob when we didn't have ANY fighters on, but we're a poor substitute for someone with a defense stance AND taunts. How were troubs the best tank? No taunts, plus guardians existed. Aye, I think they are meaning tanking when no fighter can be found. On occasion a group must continue without an actual take, so us scouts get stuck with the job since we can hold agro better than most (except maybe wiz, but thier cloth armor makes them a poor choice).I personally have had good luck tanking when there was no fighter around also as a troub. My wife plays a swashie. When we are together and there is no tank around we will take turns tanking, it tends to work pretty well.Of course, nothing is a very good substitute for an actual tank, heh heh __________________ Blue Sun aka Kayami Oakwright of Tunare Watch 70 Alchemist of Venekor Server

05-04-2006, 09:36 PM	#6
Sanju Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 305	vinterskugge wrote:How were troubs the best tank? No taunts, plus guardians existed. Pre-LU13 Swan Song > any taunt save rescue. __________________

05-04-2006, 06:21 PM	#2
ShiroiOokami Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 51	Troubs make decent tanks, mainly because they can hold agro through debuffs. Keep in mind, your swashy is probably a better overall tank, at least against single targets. If you have difficulty holding agro, you can cast your hate reducing song, then right click it off on your spell effect list, so it only cancels its effect on you. That should make it much easier to hold agro, especially in the long run.Pre-CU troub's were the best tanks around, and I was often MT for my guild in raids (pure defense buffs). Now, I'd say except for their ability to hold agro, they don't really have any special abilities in tanking. A pred or rogue's defensive stance is significantly better than our defense buff. Overall, I think troubs, especially with the sta AA line have potential to tank decently well - and I've tanked for xp groups before, and even against a green 2x raid mob when we didn't have ANY fighters on, but we're a poor substitute for someone with a defense stance AND taunts.Anyhow, don't let that discourage you from going out there and tanking if you want. It's certainly possible, and as you've pointed our debuffs make it incredibly easy to hold agro. As long as you have a healer and decent DPS you should have no problem fighting most mobs in the game (altho I wouldn't try HoF).

05-04-2006, 09:59 PM	#7
Kaelos_ General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 44	hehe those were the days.. just cast /recast swan song and u had the attention of every mob in battle. remember when you could stack multiple stat buffs and you could tank yellow ^^^ heroic named. omg.

05-04-2006, 10:02 PM	#8
vinterskugge Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 696	I always found the resist buffs drew a lot more hate than Swan Song.

05-05-2006, 12:17 AM	#9
Kaelos_ General Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 44	does that work now or was that prelu13? i havent tested which ones aggro these days.

05-05-2006, 05:52 AM	#10
ShiroiOokami Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 51	I haven't notice buffs giving much hate gain anymore. And pre LU-13 I could self buff defense higher than a guardian for 20 sec out of every 30 or so, and I was equal during the remaining 10 sec.

05-05-2006, 10:48 AM	#11
thorvang Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 862	pre-lu13: swan song and resists song, then add sow and you'll have all the aggro. just recast swan song from time to time to keep it. this combined with high defense and ~500 agi makes a nearly invulnerable tank who is able to keep aggro from all mobs.but it didn't crossed my mind to replace the guards in tanking ^^ __________________

05-06-2006, 03:49 AM	#12
Nevari Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Germany Posts: 92	But it was fun :p Competing with a warlock going all out and no chance he took aggro from me :smileyvery-happy: Happy days __________________

05-06-2006, 06:22 AM	#13
Straygats Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 20	I tank Den the other day, but it wasn't fun, and it wasn't something I enjoy doing. Also, this was in my STR/STA/AGI gear with about 54% avoid. In my intel suit, I'd probably have been toast.I much more enjoy playing in the support/ranged DPS capacity, but It's possible.

05-07-2006, 07:45 PM	#14
Narben Von Nacht Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Australia Posts: 61	Our lack of stances is what nails us defensively and I challenge any troub to hold aggro against any other non bard scout class of the same level. Our dps is just so much lower and debuff aggro seems to be much lower (which is actually a good thing, just not helpful if you actually wanted to use it for taunting)The only times I've killed the dragons in PoA we had a brigand tanking. They can self buff mit, they have a real taunt (ie increase threat by X amount) and 3 types of stun.It's sad but we're simply a shadow of our former glory __________________ Glide Troubador of Nexus Narben Necromancer of Nexus Najena Server

05-08-2006, 11:11 PM	#15
Krescendo Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 219	My troub is only 17, so nothing other than solo tanking experience. I hold aggro pretty well there, lol. I regularly two-box my dirge with my templar. With the dirge hate gain/str buff on him the dirge has no problem holding aggro off the templar. Multiple groups, when I might otherwise have a chance, its hard with no AE taunt. You have to debuff and damage each group. The times I have tanked in regular exp groups, the casters still ae'd and I had to be a target switching fool to try and hold aggro on a large group. I would guess that the dirge's hate aquiring buff might give him an edge over a troub. Then again, if dirge & troub are in the same group, i can just drop it on the troub and presto. That said, scouts aren't tanks. With high agility we do well againsts light & fast hitting mob (s). However, as an avoidance tank, the random number generator on a slow big hitter can screw us...exspecially with reactive healing. That's my take, anyway.

05-12-2006, 02:12 AM	#16
Kasar Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 540	I've noticed that if you keep remezzing a mob, knowing it'll be immediately broken, it seems to get annoyed at you. Of course that won't work when it has a 20s recast.

05-13-2006, 11:59 AM	#17
Godzmodi Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 70	we dont have stances ( defense buff no where near makes up for it) no parry, bards are the worst scout tanks. we get hit for alot more than any other class

05-13-2006, 03:34 PM	#18
Killerbee3000 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: right behind you Posts: 1,802	as a troubadour you can tank fine up to like lvl 40, then it changes to you cant tank anything. __________________ Whiskers without loosing Eyes in '08!

05-16-2006, 12:46 PM	#19
Godzmodi Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 70	Killerbee3000 wrote: as a troubadour you can tank fine up to like lvl 40, then it changes to you cant tank anything. you can still tank stuff, just you get hit for alot harder than all the other scouts, which is what hte OP was refering to

05-16-2006, 03:29 PM	#20
Aienaa Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 360	as a troubadour you can tank fine up to like lvl 40, then it changes to you cant tank anything. I can tell you that I have tanked in SoS with my 63 Troubador, but I can also tell you that my Assassin tanks alot better than my Troubador... The difference is that all scout classes, except for Troub and Dirge, have offensive and defensive stances... My Defensive Stance pushes my Avoidance up over 60% while my Troubadors Avoidance sits around 35%.... The result is that the Troubador takes alot more hits than my Assassin... Gwern - 70 Assassin / Parody - 63 Troubador