DW vs 1H

[RLrogue]

Ok, I need some advice.

I played a rogue for 5 years in EQ1 (not calling it EQ Live, cause I think that sounds stupid. It was never a board game, so there was never any other version of Everquest, until EQ2 came out. So, why call it Live? Wouldn't this be EQ Live II? But, anyway).

I was in the top guild on my server, and raided nightly.

But, now I'm in a smaller guild, and just starting to raid again.

And, with that, come some questions.

I only have about 20 AA's so far

I have been going down the INT line for the hate reduction, and then planned togo down the STR line for damage.

 

I have always been a dual weilder, but the WIS line makes it intresting to use one weapon.

I am wanting to know which is better?

Which one does best damage?

 

The answer really wont change my playstyle, just where I put my AA's

 

Are 2 fabled weapons not comparable to 1 with the WIS line maxed?

Or is there an AA line that will pull DW weapon users past a 1H user?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

[adamflanagan]

there are currently a few threads discussing this issue in the brigand forum. i found this thread quite helpful. from what i can gather there is very little difference and it is down to what weapons you can get and personal preference.

[BenDJ]

I've been going down the DW path and as a Raiding swashy, my experience has been that  there's not much of a difference in DPS. What i found most useful in a raid setting is the "Traumatic Swipe" (STR line) CA which increases recast times of mobs. There's also another Swashy in my guild who went w/ 1h - wis line and we're pretty close in DPS (him slightly higher) but if I try hard enough (an use poison) i can out-DPS him. And from what I can tell about what the Devs have said about AAs, they're all supposed to be pretty even, there shouldn't be one line that would overpower the rest. So pick what you feel interests you, you can always respec, but get Traumatic Swipe for end-game raids.

[aubreyy]

I mean, if they are both the same, why go WIS right? your basically losing on on the stats of an off hander, and losing out on another line, right. If you have higher than 50% double attack, your doing more damage with the 1h. You also double attack in AoE with hurricane. Its a bit different for brigs then swashy. Dont forget, we can easily haste ourselves to 100% often. Also, dont forget we have things like inspiration and en garde. If we were doing the same damage with DW as we were with WIS line, there would seriously be no point to WIS.

[Sete Soujiro]

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aubreyy wrote:
I mean, if they are both the same, why go WIS right? your basically losing on on the stats of an off hander, and losing out on another line, right. If you have higher than 50% double attack, your doing more damage with the 1h. You also double attack in AoE with hurricane. Its a bit different for brigs then swashy. Dont forget, we can easily haste ourselves to 100% often. Also, dont forget we have things like inspiration and en garde. If we were doing the same damage with DW as we were with WIS line, there would seriously be no point to WIS.

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Dps it about the same.  The advantage of wis line is only having to pick up 1 1hs and 1 1hp, compared to picking up 2 dw piercers and 2 dw slashers.  Raiding im at or over most of my stats, 100 hp isn't gonna save me.  Picking up another dw piercer and 2 dw slashers would be a pita for me.

[aubreyy]

Your saying the advantage is that i only have to worry about getting 1 weapon? I pass on some awsome DW's on raids all the time. Im missing out on HP, stats, procs ect. So your saying you do about the same damage auto attacking as you do in WIS line? Obviously, it doesnt affect your CA's, but It for sure increases your auto attack damage. I'm certain so many people are not going WIS for the convenience of only having to get 1 weapon. I know I am not. There are many posts in this forum explaining the many reason to go WIS, and mapping out the damage differences. I wont rehash them, but ill tell you that only needing to have 1 weapon is the least of the advantages. I see a lot more DW drops, and it took me a while to get a fabled 1h. Maybe im wrong though

Message Edited by aubreyy on 07-09-2006 02:53 PM

[Luk]

The advantage of the WIS line is higher DPS on auto attack than with DW.Without calculating haste and DPS buffs, and assuming capped STR with either set up.......You can calculate DR as either the combined DR of 2 DW weapons, or the DR of a 1 handed multiplied by the double attack percentage.so......DW:- Absolution (DR 62) and Adamantine Dragonfang (DR 57.9) = Total DR 119.91 Hander:- Frostwrath (DR 77.2) 72% WIS line double attack = 132.8I chose these weapons for my example simply because they all drop in the same zone and are pretty equal in the way of quality, also any 1 hander over DR 70 will be higher auto attack damage rating than the pair of DW's in the example.

[Sabatini]

The advantage to full perusal of the 1 handed Wis line isnt merely DPS on your auto attack. Its also a pretty hefty boost to your defensive ability as well. And if you invest the points in Coule, you pretty much negate the penalties to your stances while doubling the benefit. And you'll be loving double attack when you combine it with other abilities that work with off your auto attack like Hurricane.Its a very nice line for those that spend just as much time in the center of trouble as behind it.

[Drevva]

I wanted to point out that it really isn't accurate to simply add up the two DW weapons to get the total Dmg rating for comparision with the wisdom line.  It was said before by the devs, (and other swashies have brought it up), that the DR for DW weapons was raised a while ago because of combat mechanics, they weren't doing the same damage as 2 handers which was the intent.If you look at grizzfazzle items, the DW is 53ish  the 2 hander is 90ish,  This kind of goes along with the higher DR for weapons across T7 (non raid).   It seems the DW peak around 53ish, 1 hander around 66 and 2hander in the low 90s.  So assuming they have tried to balance DW with 2 hander, it seems 2x53 doesn't equal 106 but instead is probably in the low 90s for real effectiveness.Drevva

[aubreyy]

No, it used to be you add the primary with half the secondary. They raised it to both full value. Higher DW's are 63, higher 1h are 84 and higher 2h are 106 btw

[aubreyy]

double post

Message Edited by aubreyy on 07-11-2006 02:04 PM

[AegisCrown]

look at my post in this thread http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=34&message.id=11593it should help out quite abit

[Drevva]

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aubreyy wrote:

No, it used to be you add the primary with half the secondary. They raised it to both full value. Higher DW's are 63, higher 1h are 84 and higher 2h are 106 btw

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This actually goes along with what I was saying,  DWs are equiv in terms of auto attack dmg with 2h'ers.  So you cannot simply add the two DW DR and then use this for comparison.  In this case if you want to compare auto attack dmg vs wisdom line, you would be better off comparing 106 (the 2hr value which DWing should equal), and 84 +.70*84 = 142.  Simply adding up your 2 DWs does not work for comparison purposes.Drevva

[Ishbu]

Damage rating on a weapon is a poor thing to base your decsions off of. For starters, crits are guarenteeing to put you at the top end of the damage spectrum, so the higher your crit chance the greater the damage rating, and since damage rating is factored using the max and min scope of the weapon and the delay it isnt an accurate gauge at all.Example - The grinning dirk of horror out of lyceum has a poor damage rating (in the 50's wich is low for a fabled) but it has such a large range of damage and will result in more auto attack dps than other duel weilders with higher damage ratings if you take the crit aa's from the str line.

[aubreyy]

yeah, that is the DW with the *4.0* delay. that is why it does more damage

[Bishop]

Hey all,

 

Thought I would chime in here as i think I must be doing something wrong.

 

All the talk in this thread has been around auto attacks.

 

Now personally the only time I use auto attacks is when I've dropped my inspired daring and for those 12 secs or so I sit back and just auto attack.

 

Otherwise, I'm hard out popping my CA's as out of 13, 11 of them have an associated debuff, so by the time I've hit the last CA, the first one in the cycle is refreshed again.

 

Is this not what others do in raids?

 

Am I gimping myself being a lvl 70 n00b?

 

Also, Traumatic Strike was also mentioned in this thread (the AA that adds 50% to enemies recast timers), this is an ability that I use EVERY fight.  Ever since I spec'd down this line and got the ability, I have never looked back.  It comes highly recommended from me, if you are in a guild that is doing alot of raiding.

[Drevva]

I don't profess to understand all to be known about combat mechanics, that said.Even when spamming your combat arts you are getting auto attacks inbetween them, how many and such depend on your weapon speed, haste etc.For when I raid (I am far from an expert in this area)   First off most our CA take about 1 sec to use .5 to cast .5 recovery so even if I spam them, I have a bit of time before I can cycle through again,   I make sure my debuffs are always up, and  as they have a longer duration than the recycle time that is pretty easy to do.  I always make sure to use my real dmg arts whenever they refreshfor more dps.  But when I"m in the dps group my haste is usually at or close to 100% with bravado on, my dps mod tends to be at least 50% this means I can do pretty decent dmg with auto attack (I'm wisdom line).  Against multple mobs even more with hurricane procing.  So while I do try to keep my CA's firing off I have a fair amount of auto attack going as well.  I think that is one of the strengths of the wisdom line, you do very good dmg with auto attack.(best with multi mob encounters).  Also with all the procs cast on me, I would think they would have a bigger affect via auto attack, as I'm hitting 2x often with haste, but the proc is normalized with weapon delay, (haste not counted against you).  While CA's use the cast timer.Be interested to see what others think on this as I'm still pretty new to raiding (last 2 months or so).Drevva

[A 12 Gauge 007]

I am also kinda in the dark with all of these combat mechanics math stuff but I will tell you what I know.

I am a raiding swash that a few weeks ago was using DW and then switched to the one hander line.

From personal experience I jumped up 400 dps in the best swash raid setup. Granted I got a better weapon for DW, but for straight DPS like a swash wants in a raid 1hd is the way to go.

Now if you want to solo or small group more. AGI and STA lines might be better, and if almost pure solo then I might go INT for the FD, but the WIS and STR line is for DPS and it does outdo the other lines for DPS because of all the stats and AA points you have to give up to get to that point.

[MrDiz]

I respecced and dropped Wisdom because I got wurmslayer (62dps) and another dw (62dps) that procs a dps pet Basically ive found 1hers hard to come by, and nothing that would let me do the same dps as my DW. Im almost sure I wont find anything until I get claymore finished and get the rapier. Even then I have to ask myself if the dps difference is worth losing something cool like feign death

[AegisCrown]

but those 2 dws only add up to 124 to do better than that you only need a 1h with a 73+ DR  most fabled are 77.2+

[MrDiz]

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AegisCrown wrote:but those 2 dws only add up to 124 to do better than that you only need a 1h with a 73+ DR  most fabled are 77.2+

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Yes, but thats not a huge increase in autoattack damage. We are talking 3 or 4% n a 77dps weapon. And then when you take into account that a lot of your damage is posions and CAS the difference a 77dps 1her makes is pretty small (1 or 2%). And if i use the AA for agility line instead, or int line, I get more dps or some cool ability.But perhaps I will go that way once I actually get the qeynos rapier (81 dps). But as im parsing the second highest DPS in our raids right now im less worried about my dps and more focused on other things the AA lines can give me. Currently im playing with Int line for aggro control and of course Feigh Death

so I finally switched to WIS line - it was a noticeably increase in dps for me as far as preliminary results show - I was using Talonsreach and Adamantine Dragonfang before then (62/57), now using Shadow Axe (~81). The downside of it is...I look like a wood cutter now, not like a swashbuckler anymore

[MrDiz]

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wrote:so I finally switched to WIS line - it was a noticeably increase in dpsfor me as far as preliminary results show - I was using Talonsreach andAdamantine Dragonfang before then (62/57), now using Shadow Axe (~81).The downside of it is...I look like a wood cutter now, not like a swashbuckler anymore

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Can you parse some results for me? When I get the claymore quest done ill have a similar weapon and may switch if its a big enough difference. If you could kill some eacy stuff on just autoattack, and autoattack with CAs and post numbers id appreciate it cos you seem to have similar weapons to me right now and would be a good indicator for me ty in advance.

[Ildarus]

I don't know, I picture a Swashy using DW and cant get it out of my head. Maybe if I can see some parses doing only Auto Attack Damage only on the same mob. One with dual wield and one with one hander and it both would have to be done by the same person.

I can't afford to respec again to do it, I already messed to many times on my AA's to afford another respec till the next free one. If I can see proof that one handers on the Wisdom line do much better DPS then I might pay for a switch. I think just like everything in this game it is all going to depend on equipment and buffs.

[Drevva]

I too have messed up by respeccing too much early on, I think I have 2 more till I hit the 10pp mark .Currently I'm using the ancient Velium shortsword DR 71 with a proc.  (bought it off the broker it is a legendary tradeable drop from deathtoll I believe.I'm quite happy with the wisdom line.  , I also took coule along the way which helps my solo/small grouping(though now I kind of wish I could get the last in the str line).  But something about 1 hander just doesn't seem right .  If I can reach close to the same effectiveness I will switch back to DW. I have decided I will draw the line at axes and just say no regardless of the DPS.I'm pondering switching to dual wield when I get the opportunity to get  Oblivion blade (or what ever it is called 60 or 62 DR DW). My auto attack dmg will go down a bit, but I can pick up a few nice skills with the agi tree.  My raid group hasn't been able to kill Vyemm yet and so far only 1 handers that have dropped are axes. I read that a nice 1 hand sword drops of vyemm.Anyway I'm rambling.  I think it shows our AA lines are reasonably balanced  if folks are finding happiness choosing different lines and weapon types.Drevva

[Luk]

I read that a nice 1 hand sword drops of vyemm.Yes, its called Silver Sword of Rage

[aubreyy]

I just respec'ed to str/wis. Actually str 4458 Wis 44488. Before my top parse was 1300. Last night in lab I was parsing 1100-1600 consistantly. I topped nearly 1700 once. I was shocked at the DPS increase. Same group set up as usual. I was grouped with our assassin who usually out dps' me, but I was above or on par with him every time. The 2 of us were doing so much damage that the healer in our group was strangely getting aggro. We realized it was because we both stuck our transfers on him. Anyhow, next week, I am going to go in with DW's and see if I come close to what I was parsing tonight. Since i am certain I am sticking with the above spec, I have a respec or 2 to kill. Which DW line up should I go with to maximize DPS for the test? I only have 2 53 DR DW's though, so i suppose that must be taken into account.