Why is Illusinionist's Pet so Good at Stealing and Keeping Agro?

Bawang · 03-12-2006, 01:22 PM

Having played a Magician in EQ1 - with the concomitant care one had to have in avoiding stealing agro from pet - when I first started playing an Illusionist I was pleasantly surprised to see that the Illusionist's pet was really good at keeping and stealing agro. But it bothers me that I can't see a clear reason for it. My pet's damage spells do only a portion of mine. So he can't be outdamaging unless his melee makes up the difference, which I doubt.

He of course loves using stun and root a lot. But, not matter what I do he seems to find a way to steal, and keep, agro. I'm beginning to suspect our pets have some sort of hidden Taunt which enables them to do this. But maybe someone has a better explanation...

zit · 03-12-2006, 03:44 PM

i dunno about lower levels as i was lvl 50 before i got our personae.

but my pet never was and still is not able to hold agro against me (unless i really hold back).

however since they changed our pet spells and gave it they ability to root and stun more i dont have that much problem with agro and the mob coming after my anymore. not because i wouldnt be top on agro list, but because the mob simply cannot move.

NG23985_01 · 03-12-2006, 04:04 PM

I'm not sure what you're doing Bawang, but my Illusionist's personae can never keep aggro over my Illusionist. He roots, stuns and stifles over and over again - moreso than he tries to nuke. Most of the time, if the NPC is hitting the personae instead of me, its because the personae has rooted the monster.

Summon your Construct pet and pay close attention to what it does. The Construct pet is a fighter, and it actually taunts. He does fairly good damage, but if/when he dies, all of his aggro gets attributed to you. SMILEY

UrkBloodA · 03-12-2006, 05:25 PM

might look like the pet has agro if it's closer to your rooted target than you. move up close to the mob and see if your pet really has agro.

Belizarius · 03-13-2006, 04:36 AM

I've kind of learned how to pace myself and not steal aggro from the pet, but the trade-off is the kill takes longer, so pet gets hurt a bit more. Mine seems to hold single targets much better than groups.

Either way, it does a very poor job of taunting when used as a substitute tank for a group...

evil_drag · 03-13-2006, 09:52 AM

I just buy the Master Personae Mirror., i get aggro and hard to the pet to take it of me if i atack first doent matter i send pet really fast after my first attack., but if i send pet first is hard to get aggro of it., but doable., is kool but no what i wish from enchanter class., good to have master in the first days KoS come also :smileyhappy:

I'll trade pet for an AOE Mez or stun that last some 15 sec., up to 8 targets... that's what i really want ohh and it should work on epics :p

Grimda · 03-13-2006, 01:02 PM

I agree 100% with OP. I'm 27 illusionist. My (Master I) Personae Split consistenstly steals aggro from MTs and I've never been able to pull aggro from my pet going full bore.

The only problem with this is when the healer doesn't chose to heal my pet and the hate transfers to me!

Last few days, I've enjoyed standing on the bridge at ^^^Gnolls in TS and performing tricky pulls with my pet. Last night the tank was frustrated he couldn't get aggro and he finely just let my pet tank lol and the healer just healed pet and he dps'd...

Barobra · 03-13-2006, 08:24 PM

Color shower is a high agro spell. I don't know about the rest of the illusionists but I myself am a huge agro grabber. I can pull mobs off of any tank especially in an encounter that has multiple mobs. For whatever reason our spells dont do high damage but have really high agro. Reason being I think the stifle and interupt effect seem to generate more agro. Just so happens our pet does stifles and color shower along with semi-ok damage (synergism helps).

I have really noticed though even with my t6 masters such as color shower, grabbing agro is kinda easy.

If we have a 4 mob encounter and I start out with both ae dots right away....do prismatic....both single dots....shimmering...embolism..shimmering.... Most tanks will have a tough time holding agro. Its not that im doing 1k dps...but its decent DPS with the added agro of the effects of those ae's.

I think our agro needs to be looked at personally. When I am pulling agro from a zerker in an ae encounter that has mostly masters...I think there is a problem.

Just my observation.

Manyak · 03-13-2006, 11:18 PM

Actually, our AoEs are only matched/beaten by conjurers and warlocks. Conjurors dont have much problem with aggro since its divided betweeen the toon and the pet, but warlocks have a much bigger problem with aggro than we do.

Our problem only really started when they reduced the duration of our stifles/stuns, and made color shower tick faster. When ur averaging 300 damage every 2 sec from that alone, plus an extra 200 or so from Ultraviolet storm, thats a whole lot of damage. And also, u getting the added procs of dynamism when casting each spell, and when storm ends. Ur putting out a whole lot of damage TOO quick. If u wanna stop pulling aggro, try keeping only 1 AoE running at a time. If u have shower up, wait till its done till u cast storm. If u have storm up, wait a bit before u cast shower. If u have a good tank, this shouldnt pull aggro.

Another thing to watch for when with a zerker....prismatic havoc will proc on the first 3 mobs he hits when he aoes if u time it right, even now after the 'fix'. So try and wait a few seconds so that he has a chance to get his aoes off at the start of the fight (which they always do), and then cast havoc on him.

And even though our DPS isnt top-notch, our spike damage can be HUGE. Sometimes well have all our DoTs tick at the same time, along with havoc real quick from a monk or something we casted on, and the shimmering beam that we are fitting into it all. Do the math - thats like 3-4k damage in less than 1 sec. And since we dont have any real aggro reducers like all the DPS classes do, we get screwed.

Barobra · 03-14-2006, 01:18 AM

Ya I know how to stop it. I am just stating that our spells have higher then normal agro. Even before they changed the duration I was pulling agro all the time. It sucks to have to limit my DPS so much in order to stop agro.

Manyak · 03-14-2006, 05:50 AM

every DPS class has to as well, not just us.

Belizarius · 03-14-2006, 06:28 AM

Indeed, you need to take some responsibility for the aggro you draw...

I seem to have no problem pulling aggro off Pally tanks against group encounters, unless they put Amends on me. That's because of Color Shower mainly. But as it's also my group stifle I like to cast it early in the fight.

Unfortunately, they usually put Amends on a DPS class at first and own't believe that I need it, until I've died a couple of times.

Sure I could avoid getting aggro, but I wouldn't be stifling the encounter either.

Single target mobs I'd have to go out of my way to out-aggro the tank.

Message Edited by Belizarius on 03-13-200605:30 PM

Sadaro · 03-14-2006, 09:55 AM

Compared to other mage classes, our DPS is relatively flat. Granted, we might have a handful of DOTS/effects hit at the same time for 2,000-3,000 damage (if we're lucky), but compare that to an Ice Comet or Fusion with it's 5,000-8,000 point hit and long casting time.I firmly believe that stuns and stifles generate huge amounts of aggro, especially if the mob is a casting class. In regular groups, I start my DPS while the tank is incoming from the pool. If I stick to DPS mode, I rarely if ever draw aggro. On the other hand, if I switch to stifle mode, especially if I stifle too early, the mob is much more likely to reward me with a few well-placed boots to the head.Since the personae spends a lot of it's time stunning/stifling, it also generates large amounts of aggro. The personae will out-aggro the construct. While soloing, I'll regulary prismatic myself, cast the construct, cast the combat debuff, engage the personae, and start DPS mode with a short break between each spell to do a single melee attack. I can see the aggro go from my construct to the personae to me (once a few prismatics proc).Sadari66 IllusionistMistmoore

Barobra · 03-14-2006, 09:06 PM

DaMutation wrote:
every DPS class has to as well, not just us.

I agree. But to the point where I have to be 100 dps is stupid. All the other classes have ways to decrease there agro which makes it not so bad. How many spells do we have that decrease agro?

Sadaro · 03-15-2006, 02:27 AM

If you're drawing aggro while only doing 100 DPS, you really need to find a new tank.I regularly do 400+ DPS in a group and rarely draw aggro. When I do, it's usually because (a) I cast my stifle while the tank was still pulling, or (b) I've mezzed adds, and the group hit them before the tank got his taunt off.Of course, in a typical group, I'm in pure DPS mode. No stuns, no stifle (unless it comes from Color Shower), no roots, and no mezzes unless we get adds. Over time, I do slightly less DPS than the sorcerer/summoner/scouts, but I make up for that with mana regen and the ability to save the group when things go really bad.Sadari66 IllusionistMistmoore

zit · 03-15-2006, 03:20 AM

In a typical group where my main role is dps and nothing for me to stun, mez etc... the last thing i will care about is if i am getting agro. In these groups the healer is usually the last one to go oop and feels bored anyways. :smileytongue:

hoppopo · 03-16-2006, 02:10 AM

No problems here with zerker getting aggro off pet or holding aggro from my illusionist. on group mobs I have color shower off while zerker is still casting rampage

Barobra · 03-17-2006, 03:31 AM

The main difference here may be that my spells are mostly master.

Manyak · 03-17-2006, 09:26 AM

probably not, since every one of my t6 spells was master except sap will and legerity, yet i never really had a problem. i like to always keep a parser running, and ive never seen myself pull aggro under the normal circumstances unless my dps managed to spike too high, or i just went all-out on DPS for a long period of time.

Sadaro · 03-20-2006, 09:36 PM

Barobrain wrote:
The main difference here may be that my spells are mostly master.

That really shouldn't matter. Master spells are typically 10% better than adept 3's. I regulary group with wizards and warlocks that regulary do 10% more (and sometimes 50%-100% more) damage than I do, and they don't draw aggro.As far as I know, none of the mages have any serious de-aggro spells.Again, figure out why you're getting aggro. When are you getting aggro?- Beginning of fight? Maybe you're starting up before the tank has established aggro, especially if the tank is body pulling.- Middle/end of fight? Maybe the tanks just not doing his job well. I've yet to group with a tank that couldn't maintain aggro.- Non-primary targets in a group of mobs? A combination of using your AoE's early and the tank not having good AoE aggro management.Get a combat parser and compare your damage to damage from other mages. If they're outdamaging you by a significant margin without pulling aggro, you need to consider the timing/targetting of your spells.Sadari66 IllusionistMistmoore

Barobra · 03-20-2006, 10:31 PM

I parse all the time thats why I brought this point up. Its hard to judge by dmg simply because our spells have other effects that I think personally draw more agro then just the dmg itself. Just an observation. I can make it so I dont get agro..... I just have noticed personally that our spells draw high agro that was my only point. There is alot of factors involved besides just what I cast and when such as the tanks taunts type of taunts such as ae etc....

Serventof Wrath · 03-25-2006, 07:57 PM

Hi,

Okay my main toon is a 61 ranger but my main alt is 43 Troll Illusionist SMILEY I have noticed that my pet can hold agro pretty well but I also noticed that I seem to pull agro in groups when I'm not out dpsing anyone else. I've played around with it in groups and found that if instead of damage spells if I focus on stun/stifles and power drains I'm 75% of the time pulling agro. I think its because on those mobs their power pool is lower then their health pool and by power draining them I was doing a larger % of damage to the mob even though it was "mental" (as in power not health) damage and also add in the hate generated from group buffs and mobs really seem not to like me. Which does hurt my feelings I''m a sensitive Troll, but it doesn’t hurt my feelings as much as the tanks axe seems to hurt the mob itself :smileytongue:. I have noticed in solo fights when my pet seems to hold agro really well he has been doing more stuns/stifle/power drain then physical damage as well. And I do get close to the mobs cause I like to watch my rod of confusion go off and I seem to have really high STR compared to other illusionist I run across and even when in melee range the mob doesn't turn off the pet if he's been power draining. I may be crazy and maybe its all just coincidence but that was just my 2cp..

FriteningTeddybear

43 Troll Illusionist

Najena

zit · 03-26-2006, 03:59 PM

^^ i think thats some good observation.

as power drains have more or less no effect on heroic mobs we often forget that they are one of our best "damage" spells.

the other mage classes get a 1k+ nuke with their stun for expample, we get a 1k+ power drain. for them its obvious that the spell generates some high agro, for us its "just" a stun.

03-13-2006, 09:52 AM	#6
evil_drag Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 98	I just buy the Master Personae Mirror., i get aggro and hard to the pet to take it of me if i atack first doent matter i send pet really fast after my first attack., but if i send pet first is hard to get aggro of it., but doable., is kool but no what i wish from enchanter class., good to have master in the first days KoS come also :smileyhappy: I'll trade pet for an AOE Mez or stun that last some 15 sec., up to 8 targets... that's what i really want ohh and it should work on epics :p __________________

03-13-2006, 11:18 PM	#9
Manyak Tester Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 822	Actually, our AoEs are only matched/beaten by conjurers and warlocks. Conjurors dont have much problem with aggro since its divided betweeen the toon and the pet, but warlocks have a much bigger problem with aggro than we do. Our problem only really started when they reduced the duration of our stifles/stuns, and made color shower tick faster. When ur averaging 300 damage every 2 sec from that alone, plus an extra 200 or so from Ultraviolet storm, thats a whole lot of damage. And also, u getting the added procs of dynamism when casting each spell, and when storm ends. Ur putting out a whole lot of damage TOO quick. If u wanna stop pulling aggro, try keeping only 1 AoE running at a time. If u have shower up, wait till its done till u cast storm. If u have storm up, wait a bit before u cast shower. If u have a good tank, this shouldnt pull aggro. Another thing to watch for when with a zerker....prismatic havoc will proc on the first 3 mobs he hits when he aoes if u time it right, even now after the 'fix'. So try and wait a few seconds so that he has a chance to get his aoes off at the start of the fight (which they always do), and then cast havoc on him. And even though our DPS isnt top-notch, our spike damage can be HUGE. Sometimes well have all our DoTs tick at the same time, along with havoc real quick from a monk or something we casted on, and the shimmering beam that we are fitting into it all. Do the math - thats like 3-4k damage in less than 1 sec. And since we dont have any real aggro reducers like all the DPS classes do, we get screwed. __________________

03-14-2006, 05:50 AM	#11
Manyak Tester Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 822	every DPS class has to as well, not just us. __________________

03-14-2006, 09:06 PM	#14
Barobra Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 560	DaMutation wrote: every DPS class has to as well, not just us. I agree. But to the point where I have to be 100 dps is stupid. All the other classes have ways to decrease there agro which makes it not so bad. How many spells do we have that decrease agro?

03-16-2006, 02:10 AM	#17
hoppopo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 51	No problems here with zerker getting aggro off pet or holding aggro from my illusionist. on group mobs I have color shower off while zerker is still casting rampage __________________ Hoppop et. al. 80 monk, wiz, mystic 76 zerker, illusionist 80 in all tradeskills many alts

03-12-2006, 01:22 PM	#1
Bawang Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 366	Having played a Magician in EQ1 - with the concomitant care one had to have in avoiding stealing agro from pet - when I first started playing an Illusionist I was pleasantly surprised to see that the Illusionist's pet was really good at keeping and stealing agro. But it bothers me that I can't see a clear reason for it. My pet's damage spells do only a portion of mine. So he can't be outdamaging unless his melee makes up the difference, which I doubt. He of course loves using stun and root a lot. But, not matter what I do he seems to find a way to steal, and keep, agro. I'm beginning to suspect our pets have some sort of hidden Taunt which enables them to do this. But maybe someone has a better explanation...

03-12-2006, 03:44 PM	#2
zit General Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 573	i dunno about lower levels as i was lvl 50 before i got our personae. but my pet never was and still is not able to hold agro against me (unless i really hold back). however since they changed our pet spells and gave it they ability to root and stun more i dont have that much problem with agro and the mob coming after my anymore. not because i wouldnt be top on agro list, but because the mob simply cannot move.

03-12-2006, 04:04 PM	#3
NG23985_01 Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 116	I'm not sure what you're doing Bawang, but my Illusionist's personae can never keep aggro over my Illusionist. He roots, stuns and stifles over and over again - moreso than he tries to nuke. Most of the time, if the NPC is hitting the personae instead of me, its because the personae has rooted the monster. Summon your Construct pet and pay close attention to what it does. The Construct pet is a fighter, and it actually taunts. He does fairly good damage, but if/when he dies, all of his aggro gets attributed to you.

03-12-2006, 05:25 PM	#4
UrkBloodA Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 68	might look like the pet has agro if it's closer to your rooted target than you. move up close to the mob and see if your pet really has agro.

03-13-2006, 04:36 AM	#5
Belizarius Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 407	I've kind of learned how to pace myself and not steal aggro from the pet, but the trade-off is the kill takes longer, so pet gets hurt a bit more. Mine seems to hold single targets much better than groups. Either way, it does a very poor job of taunting when used as a substitute tank for a group...

03-13-2006, 01:02 PM	#7
Grimda Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 71	I agree 100% with OP. I'm 27 illusionist. My (Master I) Personae Split consistenstly steals aggro from MTs and I've never been able to pull aggro from my pet going full bore. The only problem with this is when the healer doesn't chose to heal my pet and the hate transfers to me! Last few days, I've enjoyed standing on the bridge at ^^^Gnolls in TS and performing tricky pulls with my pet. Last night the tank was frustrated he couldn't get aggro and he finely just let my pet tank lol and the healer just healed pet and he dps'd...

03-13-2006, 08:24 PM	#8
Barobra Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 560	Color shower is a high agro spell. I don't know about the rest of the illusionists but I myself am a huge agro grabber. I can pull mobs off of any tank especially in an encounter that has multiple mobs. For whatever reason our spells dont do high damage but have really high agro. Reason being I think the stifle and interupt effect seem to generate more agro. Just so happens our pet does stifles and color shower along with semi-ok damage (synergism helps). I have really noticed though even with my t6 masters such as color shower, grabbing agro is kinda easy. If we have a 4 mob encounter and I start out with both ae dots right away....do prismatic....both single dots....shimmering...embolism..shimmering.... Most tanks will have a tough time holding agro. Its not that im doing 1k dps...but its decent DPS with the added agro of the effects of those ae's. I think our agro needs to be looked at personally. When I am pulling agro from a zerker in an ae encounter that has mostly masters...I think there is a problem. Just my observation.

03-14-2006, 01:18 AM	#10
Barobra Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 560	Ya I know how to stop it. I am just stating that our spells have higher then normal agro. Even before they changed the duration I was pulling agro all the time. It sucks to have to limit my DPS so much in order to stop agro.

03-14-2006, 06:28 AM	#12
Belizarius Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 407	Indeed, you need to take some responsibility for the aggro you draw... I seem to have no problem pulling aggro off Pally tanks against group encounters, unless they put Amends on me. That's because of Color Shower mainly. But as it's also my group stifle I like to cast it early in the fight. Unfortunately, they usually put Amends on a DPS class at first and own't believe that I need it, until I've died a couple of times. Sure I could avoid getting aggro, but I wouldn't be stifling the encounter either. Single target mobs I'd have to go out of my way to out-aggro the tank. Message Edited by Belizarius on 03-13-200605:30 PM

03-14-2006, 09:55 AM	#13
Sadaro Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 70	Compared to other mage classes, our DPS is relatively flat. Granted, we might have a handful of DOTS/effects hit at the same time for 2,000-3,000 damage (if we're lucky), but compare that to an Ice Comet or Fusion with it's 5,000-8,000 point hit and long casting time.I firmly believe that stuns and stifles generate huge amounts of aggro, especially if the mob is a casting class. In regular groups, I start my DPS while the tank is incoming from the pool. If I stick to DPS mode, I rarely if ever draw aggro. On the other hand, if I switch to stifle mode, especially if I stifle too early, the mob is much more likely to reward me with a few well-placed boots to the head.Since the personae spends a lot of it's time stunning/stifling, it also generates large amounts of aggro. The personae will out-aggro the construct. While soloing, I'll regulary prismatic myself, cast the construct, cast the combat debuff, engage the personae, and start DPS mode with a short break between each spell to do a single melee attack. I can see the aggro go from my construct to the personae to me (once a few prismatics proc).Sadari66 IllusionistMistmoore

03-15-2006, 02:27 AM	#15
Sadaro Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 70	If you're drawing aggro while only doing 100 DPS, you really need to find a new tank.I regularly do 400+ DPS in a group and rarely draw aggro. When I do, it's usually because (a) I cast my stifle while the tank was still pulling, or (b) I've mezzed adds, and the group hit them before the tank got his taunt off.Of course, in a typical group, I'm in pure DPS mode. No stuns, no stifle (unless it comes from Color Shower), no roots, and no mezzes unless we get adds. Over time, I do slightly less DPS than the sorcerer/summoner/scouts, but I make up for that with mana regen and the ability to save the group when things go really bad.Sadari66 IllusionistMistmoore

03-15-2006, 03:20 AM	#16
zit General Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 573	In a typical group where my main role is dps and nothing for me to stun, mez etc... the last thing i will care about is if i am getting agro. In these groups the healer is usually the last one to go oop and feels bored anyways. :smileytongue:

03-17-2006, 03:31 AM	#18
Barobra Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 560	The main difference here may be that my spells are mostly master.

03-17-2006, 09:26 AM	#19
Manyak Tester Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 822	probably not, since every one of my t6 spells was master except sap will and legerity, yet i never really had a problem. i like to always keep a parser running, and ive never seen myself pull aggro under the normal circumstances unless my dps managed to spike too high, or i just went all-out on DPS for a long period of time. __________________

03-20-2006, 09:36 PM	#20
Sadaro Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 70	Barobrain wrote: The main difference here may be that my spells are mostly master. That really shouldn't matter. Master spells are typically 10% better than adept 3's. I regulary group with wizards and warlocks that regulary do 10% more (and sometimes 50%-100% more) damage than I do, and they don't draw aggro.As far as I know, none of the mages have any serious de-aggro spells.Again, figure out why you're getting aggro. When are you getting aggro?- Beginning of fight? Maybe you're starting up before the tank has established aggro, especially if the tank is body pulling.- Middle/end of fight? Maybe the tanks just not doing his job well. I've yet to group with a tank that couldn't maintain aggro.- Non-primary targets in a group of mobs? A combination of using your AoE's early and the tank not having good AoE aggro management.Get a combat parser and compare your damage to damage from other mages. If they're outdamaging you by a significant margin without pulling aggro, you need to consider the timing/targetting of your spells.Sadari66 IllusionistMistmoore

03-20-2006, 10:31 PM	#21
Barobra Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 560	I parse all the time thats why I brought this point up. Its hard to judge by dmg simply because our spells have other effects that I think personally draw more agro then just the dmg itself. Just an observation. I can make it so I dont get agro..... I just have noticed personally that our spells draw high agro that was my only point. There is alot of factors involved besides just what I cast and when such as the tanks taunts type of taunts such as ae etc....

03-25-2006, 07:57 PM	#22
Serventof Wrath Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 170	Hi, Okay my main toon is a 61 ranger but my main alt is 43 Troll Illusionist I have noticed that my pet can hold agro pretty well but I also noticed that I seem to pull agro in groups when I'm not out dpsing anyone else. I've played around with it in groups and found that if instead of damage spells if I focus on stun/stifles and power drains I'm 75% of the time pulling agro. I think its because on those mobs their power pool is lower then their health pool and by power draining them I was doing a larger % of damage to the mob even though it was "mental" (as in power not health) damage and also add in the hate generated from group buffs and mobs really seem not to like me. Which does hurt my feelings I''m a sensitive Troll, but it doesn’t hurt my feelings as much as the tanks axe seems to hurt the mob itself :smileytongue:. I have noticed in solo fights when my pet seems to hold agro really well he has been doing more stuns/stifle/power drain then physical damage as well. And I do get close to the mobs cause I like to watch my rod of confusion go off and I seem to have really high STR compared to other illusionist I run across and even when in melee range the mob doesn't turn off the pet if he's been power draining. I may be crazy and maybe its all just coincidence but that was just my 2cp.. FriteningTeddybear 43 Troll Illusionist Najena

03-26-2006, 03:59 PM	#23
zit General Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 573	^^ i think thats some good observation. as power drains have more or less no effect on heroic mobs we often forget that they are one of our best "damage" spells. the other mage classes get a 1k+ nuke with their stun for expample, we get a 1k+ power drain. for them its obvious that the spell generates some high agro, for us its "just" a stun.