A new course of action

Stavenh · 01-16-2005, 08:23 PM

So, in looking around other threads, I came across this post by Moorgard in the Rules of Conduct section:

This is a reminder to posters coming from other communities where it's common to draw attention to threads by adding a /bump or /sign post to them.

Don't do it. We'll only lock the thread.

Why? Because if we respond, it makes people think we will respond to any thread that has enough posts in it. We don't want to foster belief in that kind of invalid expectation.

We (that is, the community team as well as the dev team) respond in threads where we can make a worthwhile contribution. There are times when we don't respond to a high-profile issue because we are still working out what our course of action will be. It isn't because we don't care about the issue or that we won't respond in the future, but saying "We're thinking about it" or a similar non-commital response has little value and is likely to only result in negativity.

An issue isn't made any more or less valid based on the number of /bumps in a message board thread. This is the same reason we will lock any threads that are posted as a petition or that become one through the actions of those who respond to it.

Use these boards to share your ideas and feedback. We read everything, even if we only have time to respond to a limited number of issues. We notice good ideas and observations regardless of the number of replies they get.

I don't think our concerns over our class is being ignored. I've always found Moorgard to be straight and honest. Silence doesn't mean we are being ignored. I truly believe him when he says that feel no answer is better then just fobbing us off with, "We are thinking about it".

I think many of us wizards need to take a step back, relax and see what happens. Stop threatening Sony with boycotts and cancling your accounts. If you don't like the game anymore, ok you should leave. It's silly to pay for a game that you don't like.

Personally, I can see why Sony doesn't come here and say anything. Look how vicious we can be.

Arkanj · 01-16-2005, 08:47 PM

Stavenham wrote:

So, in looking around other threads, I came across this post by Moorgard in the Rules of Conduct section:

This is a reminder to posters coming from other communities where it's common to draw attention to threads by adding a /bump or /sign post to them.

Don't do it. We'll only lock the thread.

Why? Because if we respond, it makes people think we will respond to any thread that has enough posts in it. We don't want to foster belief in that kind of invalid expectation.

We (that is, the community team as well as the dev team) respond in threads where we can make a worthwhile contribution. There are times when we don't respond to a high-profile issue because we are still working out what our course of action will be. It isn't because we don't care about the issue or that we won't respond in the future, but saying "We're thinking about it" or a similar non-commital response has little value and is likely to only result in negativity.

An issue isn't made any more or less valid based on the number of /bumps in a message board thread. This is the same reason we will lock any threads that are posted as a petition or that become one through the actions of those who respond to it.

Use these boards to share your ideas and feedback. We read everything, even if we only have time to respond to a limited number of issues. We notice good ideas and observations regardless of the number of replies they get.

I don't think our concerns over our class is being ignored. I've always found Moorgard to be straight and honest. Silence doesn't mean we are being ignored. I truly believe him when he says that feel no answer is better then just fobbing us off with, "We are thinking about it".

I think many of us wizards need to take a step back, relax and see what happens. Stop threatening Sony with boycotts and cancling your accounts. If you don't like the game anymore, ok you should leave. It's silly to pay for a game that you don't like.

Personally, I can see why Sony doesn't come here and say anything. Look how vicious we can be.

Yeah I don't think we're being ignored. I made my big post last week because I thought it was about time someone said something. If you don't say anything, nothing will get done SMILEY

But honestly I didn't expect 9 pages of replies or the flood of other people posting about their Sorcerer problems.

We gotta make our voices heard. I'm sure that since they know about the problem, and see how many people are complaining, they are very likely to be working on a fix as we speak. With these kinds of things it may take them quite some time to even tell us what the fix is. Why? Because we've made such a fuss over it. If they announce a fix and it's not up to par with what most of us expect (all I really ask is to be able to keep up with Assassin DPS alright, and shorter casting stuns) they know we'll throw an even BIGGER fit and they'll have to re-work their fix.

Regardless, there will always be a difference between whiners and constructive contributors :smileyvery-happy:

PhaLy · 01-16-2005, 10:52 PM

well. I dinged 28 recently and was fighting with a group last night in EL. 2 scout type classes out damaged me for the first time in the game. I am now beginning to understand all the frustration you wizards have been talking about. Granted the mobs were solo, but that shouldnt be an excuse. I rolled a scout one day when servers were down...I might have to start playing him. Ill see how things go tonight w/ another grp and different mobs. perhaps briarbears have too much resistance to my spells.And for the love of god/buddha/alla/etc I cannot find any upgrades for my spells post lvl 25-My nukes are all adept1 but jeez.;..

Reev · 01-16-2005, 11:49 PM

Stavenham wrote:

So, in looking around other threads, I came across this post by Moorgard in the Rules of Conduct section:

This is a reminder to posters coming from other communities where it's common to draw attention to threads by adding a /bump or /sign post to them.

Don't do it. We'll only lock the thread.

Why? Because if we respond, it makes people think we will respond to any thread that has enough posts in it. We don't want to foster belief in that kind of invalid expectation.

We (that is, the community team as well as the dev team) respond in threads where we can make a worthwhile contribution. There are times when we don't respond to a high-profile issue because we are still working out what our course of action will be. It isn't because we don't care about the issue or that we won't respond in the future, but saying "We're thinking about it" or a similar non-commital response has little value and is likely to only result in negativity.

An issue isn't made any more or less valid based on the number of /bumps in a message board thread. This is the same reason we will lock any threads that are posted as a petition or that become one through the actions of those who respond to it.

Use these boards to share your ideas and feedback. We read everything, even if we only have time to respond to a limited number of issues. We notice good ideas and observations regardless of the number of replies they get.

I don't think our concerns over our class is being ignored. I've always found Moorgard to be straight and honest. Silence doesn't mean we are being ignored. I truly believe him when he says that feel no answer is better then just fobbing us off with, "We are thinking about it".

I think many of us wizards need to take a step back, relax and see what happens. Stop threatening Sony with boycotts and cancling your accounts. If you don't like the game anymore, ok you should leave. It's silly to pay for a game that you don't like.

Personally, I can see why Sony doesn't come here and say anything. Look how vicious we can be.

Agreed, I do think the tone and delivery of many titles and posts need to relax. I understand the frustration of the silence, but have urged in most every post that people be polite. Stevenham, you've always had articulate thoughts, so what is exactly the new course of action your proposing? I understand your urging people for patience, but what exactly are you outlining that we do?

I'm not trying to be negative or attack you in anyway if it at all, in the smallest bit sounds that way. I am genuinely asking what yours and others opinions are to positively continue asking for feedback from SOE. Or please clarify, are you asking that we quit asking and trust that they are working on it?

Azz · 01-17-2005, 01:49 AM

I agree that folks should tone it down a bit but also if we do nothing then there is no problem. Why would Sony "fix" anything? It can become just like it was in EQ1 folks [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ed and left and Sony only saw, in my view, the leaving part. It affected their bottom line. That, at the end of the day, is the only thing that matters.

I think the folks at Sony are doing things a little diff. now. I think they are reading the boards. It is much easier to fix someting before folks leave then it is to get a new customer. That is busness 101. Getting a new customer is about 10x more expensive then keeping one.

Now the question is will folks stop playing wizards or just leave the game? If folks just play other classes what effect will that have on the game? If folks just leave then that will hit the bottom line.

I hope the folks at Sony understand this. Because if they do not, they will wake up one day without any profits and we all know where that leads.

I personaly am not a huge fan of the last patch. But, for me, it is how often I get a group. I'm not getting groups as much / quickly as I used to. Am I leaving, no today. Its just I pay X amount a month and the value I get for that amount is =>X I pay per month. If that gets to be lower then the amount I pay then I will just look else where to put that money.

Absolutly nothing personal. Its just busness.

Azzan

Culda · 01-17-2005, 05:28 AM

That's BS....they should at least say "we are aware of the problem and we are working on it...sorry we can't give you more info at this time". Why all the cloak and dagger crap?

Stavenh · 01-18-2005, 11:19 PM

Ok I was asked what course of action to take. First, I don't recommend being silent. Do post, but more importantly, send feedback in game. Feedback goes to the Devs faster then the stuff here. Do both, but if you are gonna do one, make it /feedback.Which ever you do, keep it friendly, keep it focused. Don't threaten to nerf bat your wallet, cancle accounts if your not really going to. First, if you threaten to cancle, Why should Sony read your post? You've made your choice, you didn't give them any reason to respond. I know that when I worked directly with customers, as soon as I was told I lost someones business, I didn't care to listen to anymore of their [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing.If you are serious and cancled your account, post, but it's better if you send an email directly to Sony Customer service polietly saying why you cancled. You have a much higher chance of someone seeing an email rather then ost number #238 in a Thread #56 of the same subject.Don't try and prove your right and Sony is wrong about wizard DPS. Often threads about DPS parses Lack full information. Many things make a difference like level, gear, spell level and style of play.Example, Claw was up and me and my friend thought to chance it, and another close by wizard offered to help. I nuked nonstop. as soon as one spell was cast, I started another one. The other wizard chain casted ball of fire, nothing else. Who knows why. But we both had very different DPS numbers. Two wizards, one level difference, (Me 28, him 27) same dd nukes, but my DPS was over twice as much as his. The paladin was higher then him. Because he felt the only good spell to use was Ball of Fire, because it was the biggest.While I do agree, from everything post, DPS for wizards drop after 35, DPS parsing alone can not prove this to be true across the board, but only for that group or encounter. Bickering amongst ourselves will never help our case either. Postin outragous demands, wants or what every only shows us as immature. We don't all have to agree on what we want. We can agree, I think, about what is not working for the class. Such as spell damage past 35 not scaling like it does in the lower levels. This is a fact, and can be seen easily. In short, take the right path to getting your concerns and issues to the devs, present yourself in a way that makes them respect what you have to say, and never threaten. And never give up.That is the course of action I suggest.

Culda · 01-18-2005, 11:29 PM

Stavenham wrote:
Ok I was asked what course of action to take. First, I don't recommend being silent. Do post, but more importantly, send feedback in game. Feedback goes to the Devs faster then the stuff here. Do both, but if you are gonna do one, make it /feedback.

Which ever you do, keep it friendly, keep it focused. Don't threaten to nerf bat your wallet, cancle accounts if your not really going to. First, if you threaten to cancle, Why should Sony read your post? You've made your choice, you didn't give them any reason to respond. I know that when I worked directly with customers, as soon as I was told I lost someones business, I didn't care to listen to anymore of their [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing.

If you are serious and cancled your account, post, but it's better if you send an email directly to Sony Customer service polietly saying why you cancled. You have a much higher chance of someone seeing an email rather then ost number #238 in a Thread #56 of the same subject.

Don't try and prove your right and Sony is wrong about wizard DPS. Often threads about DPS parses Lack full information. Many things make a difference like level, gear, spell level and style of play.

Example, Claw was up and me and my friend thought to chance it, and another close by wizard offered to help. I nuked nonstop. as soon as one spell was cast, I started another one. The other wizard chain casted ball of fire, nothing else. Who knows why. But we both had very different DPS numbers. Two wizards, one level difference, (Me 28, him 27) same dd nukes, but my DPS was over twice as much as his. The paladin was higher then him. Because he felt the only good spell to use was Ball of Fire, because it was the biggest.

While I do agree, from everything post, DPS for wizards drop after 35, DPS parsing alone can not prove this to be true across the board, but only for that group or encounter.

Bickering amongst ourselves will never help our case either. Postin outragous demands, wants or what every only shows us as immature. We don't all have to agree on what we want. We can agree, I think, about what is not working for the class. Such as spell damage past 35 not scaling like it does in the lower levels. This is a fact, and can be seen easily.

In short, take the right path to getting your concerns and issues to the devs, present yourself in a way that makes them respect what you have to say, and never threaten. And never give up.

That is the course of action I suggest.

Wrong, sony doesn't care about you and/or your problems..they care about $, period. You can complain as nicely as you want and give them all the data in the world to support your claim, but, obviously, you are willing to continue paying regardless if they fix the issue or not so your "problems" will be the very last thing they address if they do so at all. Why do you people think sony is like a big brother or some crap? They're not here to hold your hand or cuddle you when you're upset..they are a corporation that is trying to make $ and, as long as you're willing to keep paying, they have done that job quite well.

As I have said before, if everyone in EQ2 got together and /quit every problem we face today would be fixed almost instantly and would be done so with extreme cooporation from SoE, but we won't cause we're americans taught to take what we're given....good for us!

Kamuj · 01-18-2005, 11:30 PM

Squeeky gets the greese?

The boy who cried wolf?

Which is this?

This is not "The boy who cried wolf"

So its time to squeek. Squeek how you see fit, but be reasonable.

Canceling accounts? Sure, its your money. They have no right to it if they are not providing a service you are interested in. There is nothing wrong with canceling your account until a problem is fixed. Many of us play multiple games. Go play another one until you are willing to pay for the service again. If that day never comes, its not your fault.

Feedback in game? Sure, isn't that what its there for?

Email? Sure, just be reasionable.

Post on Forums? Sure, isn't that what they are there for?

Culda · 01-18-2005, 11:34 PM

I hope you all realize that if you cancel your accounts your info will be saved for quite some time......cancel for a month or two and make them feel your resolve, then come back and start where you left off provided they actually fix all these problems (which even then i doubt they will).

Stavenh · 01-18-2005, 11:49 PM

Culdahl, post like yours stink. Of course Sony cares about money, ALL companies care about money. There is no reason to make a game like this other then money. Everquest is only for entertainment. So your snide post isn't letting us in on something we don't know other then what you are personally like.Also, the whole, if everyone got to gether and /quit it would solve all our problems. How niave. That will never happen. More people like the game then hate it. Which side you stand on, who knows. Clearly, your ideas of "every /quit" shows again who you are. Someone that seems to have unrealistic ideas about how the world works.You seem to think that coming here and crapping all over every post is the best course of action. I don't even feel sad for you.

Culda · 01-19-2005, 02:03 AM

Stavenham wrote:
Culdahl, posts like yours stink. Of course Sony cares about money; ALL companies care about money. There is no reason to make a game like this other then money. Everquest is only for entertainment, so your snide post isn't letting us in on anything we don't know already, other then you're true personality.
Also, the whole "if everyone got together and /quit it would solve all our problems" comment was very naive, it will never happen. More people like the game then hate it; who knows which side you stand on . Clearly, your idea of "everyone just /quit" shows, again, who you are; someone that seems to have unrealistic ideas about how the world works.

You seem to think that coming here and crapping all over every post is the best course of action; therefore, I don't even feel sad for you.

The world would be a better place if we just had more people to sit around and do nothing like yourself....viva la revolution!!!

EDIT - fixed your quote, as it was very annoying to read.

Message Edited by Culdahl on 01-18-2005 01:18 PM

Stavenh · 01-19-2005, 02:16 AM

Culdahi, you my sir, are a complete self centered [Removed for Content]. There wasn't a single moment I said sit around and do nothing. You must just pick out words, and rearrange them in your head to fit what ever is it you want to post. PLEASE SHOW WHERE I SAID SIT AROUND AN DO NOTHING? you can't cause I never did. The fact that you claim I did makes anything you have to say invalid, because you can't even read what people wrote. I advocated ways to bring our issues to Sonys attention without the childish atittude you show in your posts. If you think cancling your account and everyone doing the same is the ONLY solution to work (because you believe it is) let me give you some insight.The number of people playing wizards that come to this MB are small conpared to those that don't. The number of people playing wiards compared to the total of all people playing is even smaller. If all the people that come to this forum playing wizards, quit like you want them to, it won't make a noticable dent in Sony's profit. All Sony would notice is that the wizard forum stopped being filled with people like you saying Sony suck my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] till you get wizards [Removed for Content] out, thx la~. To them, it might even be a relief from always reading stupid threats posted here.However, if people use the proper methods, don't threaten or try and prove Sony wrong, and keep things civil, maybe Sony won't look at our issues as just wanting to be more uber and DPS. Your problem is that you think your solution is the only one to work, which basically comes down to threats and attempts to get back at Sony. You often say Sony doesn't care. Well your right, they don't care about you and your petty, childish, revenge against the corporation atittude and posts.

Culda · 01-19-2005, 02:23 AM

Stavenham wrote:
However, if people use the proper methods, don't threaten or try and prove Sony wrong, and keep things civil, maybe Sony won't look at our issues as just wanting to be more uber and DPS.

I didn't know sony was omnipotent? Forgive me for being a paying customer and returning defective merchandise (so to speak). BTW, your plan of action is to ask nicely.....wonder if that would have worked on hitler? Hmmm.....

Stavenh · 01-19-2005, 02:32 AM

Why do small minded peopel, like you, always try and make a connection to Hitler and the holocuast when you are shown up to be the morons you really are.The fact that you think being nice is something to be linked to what Hitler did is insulting.I never said nice either, I said civil. Something you know nothing about. First you claim I want people to do nothing, and when I show you have no reading comprehension, you switch tactics and say nice and Hitler.You bring this forum down to a depressing level with your posts and replies. You clear can not read what is being said, which is why you must always post responses that really don't help, or even come close to what people actually said.Again, if it's not your way, it's wrong. Personally, I chose to ignore you from now on.Sad little e-p e n i s-boy.

Message Edited by Stavenham on 01-18-2005 01:35 PM

Stavenh · 01-19-2005, 02:42 AM

To quote you from another tread:Bought a 6800GT BFG for the same reasons you did and it runs like crap compared to how much my system is worth......the wizard thing was just the final straw for me. I was willing to wait for the technical issues to be resolved, but a poorly made game + a complete rewrite of classes a month after release and still not even one bit of info on a future fix on the technical issues = a lost account IMO (SoE won't even acknowledge the memory leak issue and Nvidia issue, which makes me even more angry).So if you gonna quit, DO SO. Put your money to where your mouth is. And if you do quit, try, if you can to stay away from this forum. It's for people that PLAY the game. Not those that left and feel so bitter and more angry they need to seek revenge on big bad business.If you not going to quit (as i suspect) then stop trying to get others to with empty threats. Why should Sony given into people that make empty threats to quit but never do? The fact that you keep coming back here shows you aren't really going to quit.

Culda · 01-19-2005, 03:01 AM

Perhaps you should do a search tough guy....I have already stated that I quit quite some time ago. Also, I was initially one of the ones on the "wizards aren't that bad" bandwagon and defended the class many, many times, but we were nerfed and the class went from modestly useful to completely useless and, I don't measure this on my anger of not being uber enough, I measure this on parses by myself and many others that clearly show what the overwhelming majority here keep saying.

I do not care what happens to this game at this point, but it frustrates me to no end when people don't stand up for themselves in these situations, so I pop in from time to time to counter cowards such as yourself from derailing those who have obvious reasons to be upset. Also, what business is it of yours how angry these people get? If they want to cuss and complain in every thread, so be it..they pay for this game and, as a customer, are well within their right to make their displeasure known in any way they see fit.

BTW, I would agree with the whole "it's only been two months and we should give them time" idea, but this game is an extension of a game that has been around for 6 yrs and SoE would not be having so many issues had they just spent more time in development rather then racing WoW for the sake of profit margins...what they did was wrong and should not be taken lighlty.

P.S. - A quick hypothetical - If your brand new car suddenly staretd getting .05 miles to the gallon despite the sticker saying you should get 25 miles to the gallon, would you just sit back and send "civil" letters to the company and wait, no matter how long, for a response (if you ever even get one)? Or would you hire a lawyer, threaten to return the car and/or stop paying payments (lets say it's a lease)? Do you think the car company would respond quicker if you quit making payments or if you sent a letter saying "I don't like that you lied and that it is costing me a lot more money, but I'll keep paying so please respond when you get a chance"?

P.P.S. - I did not equate you to hitler, I merely used a reference that most definitely applied to the topic at hand (being "nice" to bad people doesn't get things fixed..the example was quite relevant in that context).

Message Edited by Culdahl on 01-18-2005 02:05 PM

Stavenh · 01-19-2005, 03:07 AM

You quit, yet you keep posting to a game you don't play. Why? Seems to me your just a petty person, who thinks threats are the only way to get what you want. And you car metaphore has water. If I bought a car and didn't work, and the company didn't fix it, I can sue them and get what I want.Who says wizards aren't as Sony meant them? You can't sue a company cause a game doesn't do what you want it to do. Again, you lose.As you have clearly stated, you quit, uninstalled the software and no longer care. But you keep coming back and posting. Stop. No one cares what some one that left the game thinks. At least I don't. All I see is a bitter nasty person wasting space on these boards where he doesn't belong anymore.Again I suspect you threat of having quit is a hollow one.

Culda · 01-19-2005, 03:34 AM

Stavenham wrote:
And you car metaphore has water. If I bought a car and didn't work, and the company didn't fix it, I can sue them and get what I want.

Who says wizards aren't as Sony meant them? You can't sue a company cause a game doesn't do what you want it to do.

Why take a different course of action against company "A" then company "B"?....remember this is a hypothetical and not to be taken seriously, so, with that said, SoE released a product that had flaws, in changing those flaws they changed a class that most people had already "purchased" and had certain expectations (not to mention those that played beta *such as myself* that had concrete ideas of what to expect)...these expectations were altered which made the product no longer what they thought it would be. Now, of course you can't sue sony and as well you shouldn't, but that doesn't mean that a product wasn't changed after purchase and the customers shouldn't take action against sony. Obvioulsy, we can't sue nor can any "one" of us do much of anything, but if everyone stuck together and complained together (and that includes the threat of action 'cause without it your arguement is useless) they could get something done quicker.

BTW, if sony meant for wizards to be a moderate DPS class with no HP and/or utility then perhaps sony should have told us that to start with....the manual says "huge damage dealer". The wizards will likely get fixed in time because the parses dont lie and the parses show that wizards are getting out DPS'd by tanks, but the key here is letting them get away with screwing up so badly without even acknowledging they did so (I might still be a customer had they just said, "we had to fix some issues with wizards and have noticed that we created some balance issues...we're sorry for the incovenience and we're working 'round the clock to fix the problem"). You see, my misguided friend, being civil works both ways and SoE has yet to show any signs of civility at this point...expecting us to be kind when they won't even acknowledge a problem is utter nonsense.

01-16-2005, 08:23 PM	#1
Stavenh Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 825	So, in looking around other threads, I came across this post by Moorgard in the Rules of Conduct section: This is a reminder to posters coming from other communities where it's common to draw attention to threads by adding a /bump or /sign post to them. Don't do it. We'll only lock the thread. Why? Because if we respond, it makes people think we will respond to any thread that has enough posts in it. We don't want to foster belief in that kind of invalid expectation. We (that is, the community team as well as the dev team) respond in threads where we can make a worthwhile contribution. There are times when we don't respond to a high-profile issue because we are still working out what our course of action will be. It isn't because we don't care about the issue or that we won't respond in the future, but saying "We're thinking about it" or a similar non-commital response has little value and is likely to only result in negativity. An issue isn't made any more or less valid based on the number of /bumps in a message board thread. This is the same reason we will lock any threads that are posted as a petition or that become one through the actions of those who respond to it. Use these boards to share your ideas and feedback. We read everything, even if we only have time to respond to a limited number of issues. We notice good ideas and observations regardless of the number of replies they get. I don't think our concerns over our class is being ignored. I've always found Moorgard to be straight and honest. Silence doesn't mean we are being ignored. I truly believe him when he says that feel no answer is better then just fobbing us off with, "We are thinking about it". I think many of us wizards need to take a step back, relax and see what happens. Stop threatening Sony with boycotts and cancling your accounts. If you don't like the game anymore, ok you should leave. It's silly to pay for a game that you don't like. Personally, I can see why Sony doesn't come here and say anything. Look how vicious we can be.

01-16-2005, 11:49 PM	#4
Reev Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 78	Stavenham wrote: So, in looking around other threads, I came across this post by Moorgard in the Rules of Conduct section: This is a reminder to posters coming from other communities where it's common to draw attention to threads by adding a /bump or /sign post to them. Don't do it. We'll only lock the thread. Why? Because if we respond, it makes people think we will respond to any thread that has enough posts in it. We don't want to foster belief in that kind of invalid expectation. We (that is, the community team as well as the dev team) respond in threads where we can make a worthwhile contribution. There are times when we don't respond to a high-profile issue because we are still working out what our course of action will be. It isn't because we don't care about the issue or that we won't respond in the future, but saying "We're thinking about it" or a similar non-commital response has little value and is likely to only result in negativity. An issue isn't made any more or less valid based on the number of /bumps in a message board thread. This is the same reason we will lock any threads that are posted as a petition or that become one through the actions of those who respond to it. Use these boards to share your ideas and feedback. We read everything, even if we only have time to respond to a limited number of issues. We notice good ideas and observations regardless of the number of replies they get. I don't think our concerns over our class is being ignored. I've always found Moorgard to be straight and honest. Silence doesn't mean we are being ignored. I truly believe him when he says that feel no answer is better then just fobbing us off with, "We are thinking about it". I think many of us wizards need to take a step back, relax and see what happens. Stop threatening Sony with boycotts and cancling your accounts. If you don't like the game anymore, ok you should leave. It's silly to pay for a game that you don't like. Personally, I can see why Sony doesn't come here and say anything. Look how vicious we can be. Agreed, I do think the tone and delivery of many titles and posts need to relax. I understand the frustration of the silence, but have urged in most every post that people be polite. Stevenham, you've always had articulate thoughts, so what is exactly the new course of action your proposing? I understand your urging people for patience, but what exactly are you outlining that we do? I'm not trying to be negative or attack you in anyway if it at all, in the smallest bit sounds that way. I am genuinely asking what yours and others opinions are to positively continue asking for feedback from SOE. Or please clarify, are you asking that we quit asking and trust that they are working on it?

01-18-2005, 11:29 PM	#8
Culda Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 111	Stavenham wrote: Ok I was asked what course of action to take. First, I don't recommend being silent. Do post, but more importantly, send feedback in game. Feedback goes to the Devs faster then the stuff here. Do both, but if you are gonna do one, make it /feedback. Which ever you do, keep it friendly, keep it focused. Don't threaten to nerf bat your wallet, cancle accounts if your not really going to. First, if you threaten to cancle, Why should Sony read your post? You've made your choice, you didn't give them any reason to respond. I know that when I worked directly with customers, as soon as I was told I lost someones business, I didn't care to listen to anymore of their [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing. If you are serious and cancled your account, post, but it's better if you send an email directly to Sony Customer service polietly saying why you cancled. You have a much higher chance of someone seeing an email rather then ost number #238 in a Thread #56 of the same subject. Don't try and prove your right and Sony is wrong about wizard DPS. Often threads about DPS parses Lack full information. Many things make a difference like level, gear, spell level and style of play. Example, Claw was up and me and my friend thought to chance it, and another close by wizard offered to help. I nuked nonstop. as soon as one spell was cast, I started another one. The other wizard chain casted ball of fire, nothing else. Who knows why. But we both had very different DPS numbers. Two wizards, one level difference, (Me 28, him 27) same dd nukes, but my DPS was over twice as much as his. The paladin was higher then him. Because he felt the only good spell to use was Ball of Fire, because it was the biggest. While I do agree, from everything post, DPS for wizards drop after 35, DPS parsing alone can not prove this to be true across the board, but only for that group or encounter. Bickering amongst ourselves will never help our case either. Postin outragous demands, wants or what every only shows us as immature. We don't all have to agree on what we want. We can agree, I think, about what is not working for the class. Such as spell damage past 35 not scaling like it does in the lower levels. This is a fact, and can be seen easily. In short, take the right path to getting your concerns and issues to the devs, present yourself in a way that makes them respect what you have to say, and never threaten. And never give up. That is the course of action I suggest. Wrong, sony doesn't care about you and/or your problems..they care about $, period. You can complain as nicely as you want and give them all the data in the world to support your claim, but, obviously, you are willing to continue paying regardless if they fix the issue or not so your "problems" will be the very last thing they address if they do so at all. Why do you people think sony is like a big brother or some crap? They're not here to hold your hand or cuddle you when you're upset..they are a corporation that is trying to make $ and, as long as you're willing to keep paying, they have done that job quite well. As I have said before, if everyone in EQ2 got together and /quit every problem we face today would be fixed almost instantly and would be done so with extreme cooporation from SoE, but we won't cause we're americans taught to take what we're given....good for us!

01-18-2005, 11:30 PM	#9
Kamuj General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 279	Squeeky gets the greese? The boy who cried wolf? Which is this? This is not "The boy who cried wolf" So its time to squeek. Squeek how you see fit, but be reasonable. Canceling accounts? Sure, its your money. They have no right to it if they are not providing a service you are interested in. There is nothing wrong with canceling your account until a problem is fixed. Many of us play multiple games. Go play another one until you are willing to pay for the service again. If that day never comes, its not your fault. Feedback in game? Sure, isn't that what its there for? Email? Sure, just be reasionable. Post on Forums? Sure, isn't that what they are there for? __________________ Robotech MMO

01-19-2005, 02:03 AM	#12
Culda Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 111	Stavenham wrote: Culdahl, posts like yours stink. Of course Sony cares about money; ALL companies care about money. There is no reason to make a game like this other then money. Everquest is only for entertainment, so your snide post isn't letting us in on anything we don't know already, other then you're true personality. Also, the whole "if everyone got together and /quit it would solve all our problems" comment was very naive, it will never happen. More people like the game then hate it; who knows which side you stand on . Clearly, your idea of "everyone just /quit" shows, again, who you are; someone that seems to have unrealistic ideas about how the world works. You seem to think that coming here and crapping all over every post is the best course of action; therefore, I don't even feel sad for you. The world would be a better place if we just had more people to sit around and do nothing like yourself....viva la revolution!!! EDIT - fixed your quote, as it was very annoying to read. Message Edited by Culdahl on 01-18-2005 01:18 PM

01-16-2005, 08:47 PM	#2
Arkanj Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 91	Stavenham wrote: So, in looking around other threads, I came across this post by Moorgard in the Rules of Conduct section: This is a reminder to posters coming from other communities where it's common to draw attention to threads by adding a /bump or /sign post to them. Don't do it. We'll only lock the thread. Why? Because if we respond, it makes people think we will respond to any thread that has enough posts in it. We don't want to foster belief in that kind of invalid expectation. We (that is, the community team as well as the dev team) respond in threads where we can make a worthwhile contribution. There are times when we don't respond to a high-profile issue because we are still working out what our course of action will be. It isn't because we don't care about the issue or that we won't respond in the future, but saying "We're thinking about it" or a similar non-commital response has little value and is likely to only result in negativity. An issue isn't made any more or less valid based on the number of /bumps in a message board thread. This is the same reason we will lock any threads that are posted as a petition or that become one through the actions of those who respond to it. Use these boards to share your ideas and feedback. We read everything, even if we only have time to respond to a limited number of issues. We notice good ideas and observations regardless of the number of replies they get. I don't think our concerns over our class is being ignored. I've always found Moorgard to be straight and honest. Silence doesn't mean we are being ignored. I truly believe him when he says that feel no answer is better then just fobbing us off with, "We are thinking about it". I think many of us wizards need to take a step back, relax and see what happens. Stop threatening Sony with boycotts and cancling your accounts. If you don't like the game anymore, ok you should leave. It's silly to pay for a game that you don't like. Personally, I can see why Sony doesn't come here and say anything. Look how vicious we can be. Yeah I don't think we're being ignored. I made my big post last week because I thought it was about time someone said something. If you don't say anything, nothing will get done But honestly I didn't expect 9 pages of replies or the flood of other people posting about their Sorcerer problems. We gotta make our voices heard. I'm sure that since they know about the problem, and see how many people are complaining, they are very likely to be working on a fix as we speak. With these kinds of things it may take them quite some time to even tell us what the fix is. Why? Because we've made such a fuss over it. If they announce a fix and it's not up to par with what most of us expect (all I really ask is to be able to keep up with Assassin DPS alright, and shorter casting stuns) they know we'll throw an even BIGGER fit and they'll have to re-work their fix. Regardless, there will always be a difference between whiners and constructive contributors :smileyvery-happy: __________________

01-16-2005, 10:52 PM	#3
PhaLy General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 7	well. I dinged 28 recently and was fighting with a group last night in EL. 2 scout type classes out damaged me for the first time in the game. I am now beginning to understand all the frustration you wizards have been talking about. Granted the mobs were solo, but that shouldnt be an excuse. I rolled a scout one day when servers were down...I might have to start playing him. Ill see how things go tonight w/ another grp and different mobs. perhaps briarbears have too much resistance to my spells.And for the love of god/buddha/alla/etc I cannot find any upgrades for my spells post lvl 25-My nukes are all adept1 but jeez.;..

01-17-2005, 01:49 AM	#5
Azz Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 3	I agree that folks should tone it down a bit but also if we do nothing then there is no problem. Why would Sony "fix" anything? It can become just like it was in EQ1 folks [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ed and left and Sony only saw, in my view, the leaving part. It affected their bottom line. That, at the end of the day, is the only thing that matters. I think the folks at Sony are doing things a little diff. now. I think they are reading the boards. It is much easier to fix someting before folks leave then it is to get a new customer. That is busness 101. Getting a new customer is about 10x more expensive then keeping one. Now the question is will folks stop playing wizards or just leave the game? If folks just play other classes what effect will that have on the game? If folks just leave then that will hit the bottom line. I hope the folks at Sony understand this. Because if they do not, they will wake up one day without any profits and we all know where that leads. I personaly am not a huge fan of the last patch. But, for me, it is how often I get a group. I'm not getting groups as much / quickly as I used to. Am I leaving, no today. Its just I pay X amount a month and the value I get for that amount is =>X I pay per month. If that gets to be lower then the amount I pay then I will just look else where to put that money. Absolutly nothing personal. Its just busness. Azzan

01-17-2005, 05:28 AM	#6
Culda Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 111	That's BS....they should at least say "we are aware of the problem and we are working on it...sorry we can't give you more info at this time". Why all the cloak and dagger crap?

01-18-2005, 11:19 PM	#7
Stavenh Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 825	Ok I was asked what course of action to take. First, I don't recommend being silent. Do post, but more importantly, send feedback in game. Feedback goes to the Devs faster then the stuff here. Do both, but if you are gonna do one, make it /feedback.Which ever you do, keep it friendly, keep it focused. Don't threaten to nerf bat your wallet, cancle accounts if your not really going to. First, if you threaten to cancle, Why should Sony read your post? You've made your choice, you didn't give them any reason to respond. I know that when I worked directly with customers, as soon as I was told I lost someones business, I didn't care to listen to anymore of their [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing.If you are serious and cancled your account, post, but it's better if you send an email directly to Sony Customer service polietly saying why you cancled. You have a much higher chance of someone seeing an email rather then ost number #238 in a Thread #56 of the same subject.Don't try and prove your right and Sony is wrong about wizard DPS. Often threads about DPS parses Lack full information. Many things make a difference like level, gear, spell level and style of play.Example, Claw was up and me and my friend thought to chance it, and another close by wizard offered to help. I nuked nonstop. as soon as one spell was cast, I started another one. The other wizard chain casted ball of fire, nothing else. Who knows why. But we both had very different DPS numbers. Two wizards, one level difference, (Me 28, him 27) same dd nukes, but my DPS was over twice as much as his. The paladin was higher then him. Because he felt the only good spell to use was Ball of Fire, because it was the biggest.While I do agree, from everything post, DPS for wizards drop after 35, DPS parsing alone can not prove this to be true across the board, but only for that group or encounter. Bickering amongst ourselves will never help our case either. Postin outragous demands, wants or what every only shows us as immature. We don't all have to agree on what we want. We can agree, I think, about what is not working for the class. Such as spell damage past 35 not scaling like it does in the lower levels. This is a fact, and can be seen easily. In short, take the right path to getting your concerns and issues to the devs, present yourself in a way that makes them respect what you have to say, and never threaten. And never give up.That is the course of action I suggest.

01-18-2005, 11:34 PM	#10
Culda Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 111	I hope you all realize that if you cancel your accounts your info will be saved for quite some time......cancel for a month or two and make them feel your resolve, then come back and start where you left off provided they actually fix all these problems (which even then i doubt they will).

01-18-2005, 11:49 PM	#11
Stavenh Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 825	Culdahl, post like yours stink. Of course Sony cares about money, ALL companies care about money. There is no reason to make a game like this other then money. Everquest is only for entertainment. So your snide post isn't letting us in on something we don't know other then what you are personally like.Also, the whole, if everyone got to gether and /quit it would solve all our problems. How niave. That will never happen. More people like the game then hate it. Which side you stand on, who knows. Clearly, your ideas of "every /quit" shows again who you are. Someone that seems to have unrealistic ideas about how the world works.You seem to think that coming here and crapping all over every post is the best course of action. I don't even feel sad for you.

01-19-2005, 02:16 AM	#13
Stavenh Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 825	Culdahi, you my sir, are a complete self centered [Removed for Content]. There wasn't a single moment I said sit around and do nothing. You must just pick out words, and rearrange them in your head to fit what ever is it you want to post. PLEASE SHOW WHERE I SAID SIT AROUND AN DO NOTHING? you can't cause I never did. The fact that you claim I did makes anything you have to say invalid, because you can't even read what people wrote. I advocated ways to bring our issues to Sonys attention without the childish atittude you show in your posts. If you think cancling your account and everyone doing the same is the ONLY solution to work (because you believe it is) let me give you some insight.The number of people playing wizards that come to this MB are small conpared to those that don't. The number of people playing wiards compared to the total of all people playing is even smaller. If all the people that come to this forum playing wizards, quit like you want them to, it won't make a noticable dent in Sony's profit. All Sony would notice is that the wizard forum stopped being filled with people like you saying Sony suck my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] till you get wizards [Removed for Content] out, thx la~. To them, it might even be a relief from always reading stupid threats posted here.However, if people use the proper methods, don't threaten or try and prove Sony wrong, and keep things civil, maybe Sony won't look at our issues as just wanting to be more uber and DPS. Your problem is that you think your solution is the only one to work, which basically comes down to threats and attempts to get back at Sony. You often say Sony doesn't care. Well your right, they don't care about you and your petty, childish, revenge against the corporation atittude and posts.

01-19-2005, 02:23 AM	#14
Culda Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 111	Stavenham wrote: However, if people use the proper methods, don't threaten or try and prove Sony wrong, and keep things civil, maybe Sony won't look at our issues as just wanting to be more uber and DPS. I didn't know sony was omnipotent? Forgive me for being a paying customer and returning defective merchandise (so to speak). BTW, your plan of action is to ask nicely.....wonder if that would have worked on hitler? Hmmm.....

01-19-2005, 02:32 AM	#15
Stavenh Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 825	Why do small minded peopel, like you, always try and make a connection to Hitler and the holocuast when you are shown up to be the morons you really are.The fact that you think being nice is something to be linked to what Hitler did is insulting.I never said nice either, I said civil. Something you know nothing about. First you claim I want people to do nothing, and when I show you have no reading comprehension, you switch tactics and say nice and Hitler.You bring this forum down to a depressing level with your posts and replies. You clear can not read what is being said, which is why you must always post responses that really don't help, or even come close to what people actually said.Again, if it's not your way, it's wrong. Personally, I chose to ignore you from now on.Sad little e-p e n i s-boy. Message Edited by Stavenham on 01-18-2005 01:35 PM

01-19-2005, 02:42 AM	#16
Stavenh Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 825	To quote you from another tread:Bought a 6800GT BFG for the same reasons you did and it runs like crap compared to how much my system is worth......the wizard thing was just the final straw for me. I was willing to wait for the technical issues to be resolved, but a poorly made game + a complete rewrite of classes a month after release and still not even one bit of info on a future fix on the technical issues = a lost account IMO (SoE won't even acknowledge the memory leak issue and Nvidia issue, which makes me even more angry).So if you gonna quit, DO SO. Put your money to where your mouth is. And if you do quit, try, if you can to stay away from this forum. It's for people that PLAY the game. Not those that left and feel so bitter and more angry they need to seek revenge on big bad business.If you not going to quit (as i suspect) then stop trying to get others to with empty threats. Why should Sony given into people that make empty threats to quit but never do? The fact that you keep coming back here shows you aren't really going to quit.

01-19-2005, 03:01 AM	#17
Culda Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 111	Perhaps you should do a search tough guy....I have already stated that I quit quite some time ago. Also, I was initially one of the ones on the "wizards aren't that bad" bandwagon and defended the class many, many times, but we were nerfed and the class went from modestly useful to completely useless and, I don't measure this on my anger of not being uber enough, I measure this on parses by myself and many others that clearly show what the overwhelming majority here keep saying. I do not care what happens to this game at this point, but it frustrates me to no end when people don't stand up for themselves in these situations, so I pop in from time to time to counter cowards such as yourself from derailing those who have obvious reasons to be upset. Also, what business is it of yours how angry these people get? If they want to cuss and complain in every thread, so be it..they pay for this game and, as a customer, are well within their right to make their displeasure known in any way they see fit. BTW, I would agree with the whole "it's only been two months and we should give them time" idea, but this game is an extension of a game that has been around for 6 yrs and SoE would not be having so many issues had they just spent more time in development rather then racing WoW for the sake of profit margins...what they did was wrong and should not be taken lighlty. P.S. - A quick hypothetical - If your brand new car suddenly staretd getting .05 miles to the gallon despite the sticker saying you should get 25 miles to the gallon, would you just sit back and send "civil" letters to the company and wait, no matter how long, for a response (if you ever even get one)? Or would you hire a lawyer, threaten to return the car and/or stop paying payments (lets say it's a lease)? Do you think the car company would respond quicker if you quit making payments or if you sent a letter saying "I don't like that you lied and that it is costing me a lot more money, but I'll keep paying so please respond when you get a chance"? P.P.S. - I did not equate you to hitler, I merely used a reference that most definitely applied to the topic at hand (being "nice" to bad people doesn't get things fixed..the example was quite relevant in that context). Message Edited by Culdahl on 01-18-2005 02:05 PM

01-19-2005, 03:07 AM	#18
Stavenh Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 825	You quit, yet you keep posting to a game you don't play. Why? Seems to me your just a petty person, who thinks threats are the only way to get what you want. And you car metaphore has water. If I bought a car and didn't work, and the company didn't fix it, I can sue them and get what I want.Who says wizards aren't as Sony meant them? You can't sue a company cause a game doesn't do what you want it to do. Again, you lose.As you have clearly stated, you quit, uninstalled the software and no longer care. But you keep coming back and posting. Stop. No one cares what some one that left the game thinks. At least I don't. All I see is a bitter nasty person wasting space on these boards where he doesn't belong anymore.Again I suspect you threat of having quit is a hollow one.

01-19-2005, 03:34 AM	#19
Culda Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 111	Stavenham wrote: And you car metaphore has water. If I bought a car and didn't work, and the company didn't fix it, I can sue them and get what I want. Who says wizards aren't as Sony meant them? You can't sue a company cause a game doesn't do what you want it to do. Why take a different course of action against company "A" then company "B"?....remember this is a hypothetical and not to be taken seriously, so, with that said, SoE released a product that had flaws, in changing those flaws they changed a class that most people had already "purchased" and had certain expectations (not to mention those that played beta such as myself that had concrete ideas of what to expect)...these expectations were altered which made the product no longer what they thought it would be. Now, of course you can't sue sony and as well you shouldn't, but that doesn't mean that a product wasn't changed after purchase and the customers shouldn't take action against sony. Obvioulsy, we can't sue nor can any "one" of us do much of anything, but if everyone stuck together and complained together (and that includes the threat of action 'cause without it your arguement is useless) they could get something done quicker. BTW, if sony meant for wizards to be a moderate DPS class with no HP and/or utility then perhaps sony should have told us that to start with....the manual says "huge damage dealer". The wizards will likely get fixed in time because the parses dont lie and the parses show that wizards are getting out DPS'd by tanks, but the key here is letting them get away with screwing up so badly without even acknowledging they did so (I might still be a customer had they just said, "we had to fix some issues with wizards and have noticed that we created some balance issues...we're sorry for the incovenience and we're working 'round the clock to fix the problem"). You see, my misguided friend, being civil works both ways and SoE has yet to show any signs of civility at this point...expecting us to be kind when they won't even acknowledge a problem is utter nonsense.