Skill / Stat comparison, beta and live

Pa · 08-26-2005, 02:13 AM

I dont really have the time to make a post as detailed as some of the other classes have, but since people are still asking for comparison shots I can do that atleast.

First column is live, second is beta. The third deafen is the lvl 50 trait choice, I was trying to get all 4 choices for every trait so people could make an informed decision upon /respec but there is no /respecs allowed yet.

edit: added Fortified Stance and Return to Battle level 50 Master2 trait options, last one is taunting assault I'll try to get that one when beta server is more stable.

edit: added Taunting Assault master2 trait and beta version of Rescue

I dont have a screen of rescue on live but it's like 500 threat and +1 position with 30min re-use

New skills in Beta: Other than the ones already posted in other topics.

Stats, first collumn is live, second is beta. I dont have either HP trait (dont ask), since traits were removed its actually a better representation than someone who does have the HP traits on Live.

Unbuffed:

Self Buffed: With fortified Stance, Call of Protection and Iron Conviction only

Equipment Changes: All items have changed in mitigation values, the right side isnt nearly as important as the left in Live even, but moreso in Beta. Firtst two screenshots are live, second two are beta. Sorry theyre so heavily compressed I really dont have the time to crop them all :smileytongue:

Live:

Beta:

As you can see a lot has changed, yet remained the same, I think thats why no one has posted detailed information about every change to the guardian class. We were more of the baseline during changes and havent changed much ourselves, overall.

Message Edited by Paen on 08-25-2005 10:14 PM

Message Edited by Paen on 08-26-2005 02:01 AM

Aven Elonis · 08-26-2005, 02:58 AM

Thank you for the info. Nice work.

Aven

50 Guardian

davidro · 08-26-2005, 04:01 AM

Seems like the only upgrade is the Shield, the rest just gets worse.

TunaBoo · 08-26-2005, 07:02 AM

Aye everything is worse but taunts.. but hopefully mobs got worse too SMILEY

Our DPS isn't doin so good though.

Wrapye · 08-26-2005, 10:14 AM

I see they took the ability of Protect to work when stifled or stunned out, which appeared at some point on beta. That's very unfortunate. That made it a particularly nice taunt. How about Rescue? Thank you.

Pa · 08-26-2005, 12:53 PM

oops, rescue owns now I know I got a screen here somewhere I'll update post.

Protect can still be cast while stunned and stifled, its not listed as an effect (pretty sure it never was) but its in the description and still works.

Mentin · 08-26-2005, 04:23 PM

The biggest change to our playstyle I have seen on beta is that you must use a shield now if you are tanking anything. On live 2h or dual often was the choice when fighting sub-white mobs, on beta shields are so effective that you will get eaten fast if you dont use one.

Part of our dps nerfing I guess.

Thor · 08-26-2005, 05:35 PM

From the screenies I can see that Deafen adds more threat but Protect lesser. Good thing is Protect now can be used on Epics and recast time shortened from 30 sec to 20 sec and it has a wider range.

Anchor in it's current state is superior for long pulls, do we need use bow after the change?

It also seems you have to "relearn" how to play our class. Any tips on how to easiest adapt the change?

Shizzirri · 08-26-2005, 06:34 PM

I would call it damage per minute rather than damage per second...

Nazo · 08-26-2005, 06:43 PM

DPS for Guardians = Damage Per Season

:smileyvery-happy:

MastikFantastik · 08-26-2005, 06:46 PM

I don't know about you guys but it seems to me like we are getting kicked in the pants by the exanpsion. Yes we do get a couple of very cool or useful abilities but on the whole we are not being upgraded it seems. If anything seems like we are be nerfed. Compare us to the other classes in what abilites etc thy are getting or the hanges to their current ones and you will see what I mean. I will be sticking it out as a guardian but its sad to see how we in the end will be screwed over (coparitively speaking). BTW Thank you for all the info, and screen shots.

Message Edited by MastikFantastik on 08-26-2005 07:46 AM

Macross_JR · 08-26-2005, 07:10 PM

Actually all the HP traits were racial, not class. What they took out was class traits. All Racial traits remain the same.

Shizzirri · 08-26-2005, 08:38 PM

MastikFantastik wrote:
I don't know about you guys but it seems to me like we are getting kicked in the pants by the exanpsion. Yes we do get a couple of very cool or useful abilities but on the whole we are not being upgraded it seems. If anything seems like we are be nerfed. Compare us to the other classes in what abilites etc thy are getting or the hanges to their current ones and you will see what I mean. I will be sticking it out as a guardian but its sad to see how we in the end will be screwed over (coparitively speaking).

BTW Thank you for all the info, and screen shots.

Message Edited by MastikFantastik on 08-26-2005 07:46 AM

We are getting kicked in the pants because according to like 4 people our class is "overpowered." That's probably about 90% true, I mean guardians get a lot of help with buffs and such which create that overpowered sense...

Perhaps if the combat changes suck which they will most likely (unless your a fury) we can have a lucky volunteer make 5k posts proposing that guardians now suck and need to be made slightly more powerful and we can have another big combat change patch a couple months down the road.

Its sad in EQ1 I constantly complained about how horrific the SK class was and they didn't do jack to fix it, yet here they seem to bend over backwards to meet the needs of some people, amazing...

Mig · 08-26-2005, 08:48 PM

From what I've seen if you wanted to be a tank, maybe even a raid tank and didn't care about DPS or utility your going to be happy. If you wanted to have good DPS, be able to solo easy, and still be able to tank well, then your going to be disappointed. If you re-rolled your main 3 months after the game came out because guardians were "teh ubah", your going to be REALLY unhappy.

JNewby · 08-26-2005, 09:00 PM

hey one thing you did not post which I assume will be a huge difference given the spell changes is the def from live and beta... I would be very interested to see how that changes... as really that was our biggest ally and what kept us alive...

Arsen · 08-27-2005, 07:38 AM

Thanks for the pics... two things though. 1. The HTL skill line doesn't seem to be here. I think that will be the line that defines the guardian class. Root + insane aggro. 2. From what other people are saying, the exact numbers on the skills are determined by your stats at the time. IE. Higher STR = more damage. What was your strengh when these shots were taken - if they are with you unbuffed, then we can probably expect them to be higher across the board. And I wonder, does higher INT = better buffs?

Nazo · 08-27-2005, 03:14 PM

HTL and its anologues are there but the catch is it needs concentration and we simply dont have enough concentration slots to keep defensive stance buffs and HTL up. I am /feedbacking it and encourage everyone to do so as well. That spell is hugely important and shouldnt be needing concentration. What I suggested was to put it back on timer rather then a permament buff.

Wado · 08-27-2005, 07:14 PM

We have plenty of conc if you just do defensive and no offensive buffs. HTL - 1 Stance - 3 Protection Line - 1 Then, when you're not tanking: RtB - 1 Offensive Stance - 3 Call to War (lvl 51) - 1

Message Edited by Wadoon on 08-27-2005 08:16 AM

Nazo · 08-27-2005, 08:20 PM

and where do you fit HP and defense buff in this math ? Namely Call of Protection and Return to Battle ?

Arsen · 08-27-2005, 11:33 PM

My feeling is that in situations where you need a lot of aggro, you are probably going to drop your HP buff and put up HTL. If you look at us in comparison to other fighters, our taunts are pretty average - paladins for instance get that taunt over time skill that ends up being for 1800. No other fighter will be able to match generating 300+ hate on every other monster swing though - if you are fighting groups of monsters, that is huge.

Wado · 08-28-2005, 12:06 AM

What Arsenal said - Drop RtB to put up HTL, then you have Protection, HTL, and Stance up.

Nazo · 08-28-2005, 12:18 AM

erm yes sure I can do that but would it hurt you guys if Guardians can do that without loosing 400+ HP ? :smileyhappy:

Message Edited by Nazowa on 08-27-2005 01:19 PM

Wado · 08-28-2005, 12:56 AM

It doesn't hurt our class no - we can still get more defense and mitigation than any of the other fighters out there.

Wado · 08-28-2005, 01:04 AM

Unbuffed Defense

Buffed Defense (not sure why it's blurry, but the color change made it blurry in game and the ss)

And unbuffed

Nazo · 08-28-2005, 09:18 AM

Wadoon wrote:
It doesn't hurt our class no - we can still get more defense and mitigation than any of the other fighters out there.

and turning this buff into no concentration one is already something beta testing Guardians listed in the "Wish List" which I believe would be hugely beneficial and something that I agree fully.

With the immense decrease in HP's in Beta (very roughly you loose about 1/3 of your current HP and supposedly mob damage is adjusted accordingly) tackling any heavy caster mob by passes any Defense advantage Guardians might have. Casters simply nuke our arses off and most of the exciting mobs are heavy casting mobs as well :smileywink:

Message Edited by Nazowa on 08-27-2005 10:33 PM

OperationsX · 08-28-2005, 08:38 PM

Thank you for the screenies, mucho appreciated.

Wow DPS nerf ok

But buff and taunt nerf too??! Jez, now I know why all my guardian adepts aren't selling all of a sudden :smileysad:

I hope some of that changes before I goes to live

Wado · 08-28-2005, 08:41 PM

The communities "Wish List" doesn't neccesarily include what's best for the game SMILEY

And with caster mobs that's where different fighters come into play with the huge amount of resists our defensive stances give us.

Dassault · 08-28-2005, 09:42 PM

Oh man, they are taking away our only haste ability (Desperate Rush)? What a load of crap.

Overall, I don't see anything better in this. Even the equipment looks to be nerfed (mitigation is about half on the Cuirass).

Man, all that work and time for nothing. Now I gotta start over with a character that's actually useful (if I can find one after this, that is)...

Hey Sony, please send those SWG idiot developers back over the fence and tell them to quit screwing up this game like they did that one, please!!

RafaelSmith · 08-28-2005, 10:14 PM

These changes suck period for ANYONE that didnt pick Guardian to be a raid only MT. Guardian tells Gage..."If you wanted to be a MT then you should have picked Guardian" Gage tells Guardian..."Thats not what the archetype system is about...it needs to be fixed" then comes the revamp. Gage tells Guardian..."If you wanted to be anything besides a raid MT you should have picked something other than Guardian".. [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]?

Nazo · 08-28-2005, 11:16 PM

Wadoon wrote:
The communities "Wish List" doesn't neccesarily include what's best for the game

Oh I see we got a "Guardian was overpowered so ruining game" Guardian here OK OK

And with caster mobs that's where different fighters come into play with the huge amount of resists our defensive stances give us.

erm that stance gives 1500 resist to a single stat ? Thats like swapping 2 slots of armor. Yup its gonna make a huge impact on raid tanking.

Message Edited by Nazowa on 08-28-2005 12:17 PM

08-26-2005, 07:02 AM	#4
TunaBoo Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,507	Aye everything is worse but taunts.. but hopefully mobs got worse too Our DPS isn't doin so good though. __________________ www.spiralguild.com

08-26-2005, 10:14 AM	#5
Wrapye Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 912	I see they took the ability of Protect to work when stifled or stunned out, which appeared at some point on beta. That's very unfortunate. That made it a particularly nice taunt. How about Rescue? Thank you. __________________

08-26-2005, 06:46 PM	#11
MastikFantastik Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 48	I don't know about you guys but it seems to me like we are getting kicked in the pants by the exanpsion. Yes we do get a couple of very cool or useful abilities but on the whole we are not being upgraded it seems. If anything seems like we are be nerfed. Compare us to the other classes in what abilites etc thy are getting or the hanges to their current ones and you will see what I mean. I will be sticking it out as a guardian but its sad to see how we in the end will be screwed over (coparitively speaking). BTW Thank you for all the info, and screen shots. Message Edited by MastikFantastik on 08-26-2005 07:46 AM __________________ Nathanious70 Guardian 37 Armorer of Undivide Faith- Crushbone - And metal covered punching bag of the baddies.

08-26-2005, 07:10 PM	#12
Macross_JR Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 547	Actually all the HP traits were racial, not class. What they took out was class traits. All Racial traits remain the same. __________________

08-26-2005, 08:38 PM	#13
Shizzirri Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 440	MastikFantastik wrote: I don't know about you guys but it seems to me like we are getting kicked in the pants by the exanpsion. Yes we do get a couple of very cool or useful abilities but on the whole we are not being upgraded it seems. If anything seems like we are be nerfed. Compare us to the other classes in what abilites etc thy are getting or the hanges to their current ones and you will see what I mean. I will be sticking it out as a guardian but its sad to see how we in the end will be screwed over (coparitively speaking). BTW Thank you for all the info, and screen shots. Message Edited by MastikFantastik on 08-26-2005 07:46 AM We are getting kicked in the pants because according to like 4 people our class is "overpowered." That's probably about 90% true, I mean guardians get a lot of help with buffs and such which create that overpowered sense... Perhaps if the combat changes suck which they will most likely (unless your a fury) we can have a lucky volunteer make 5k posts proposing that guardians now suck and need to be made slightly more powerful and we can have another big combat change patch a couple months down the road. Its sad in EQ1 I constantly complained about how horrific the SK class was and they didn't do jack to fix it, yet here they seem to bend over backwards to meet the needs of some people, amazing...

08-26-2005, 02:13 AM	#1
Pa Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 64	I dont really have the time to make a post as detailed as some of the other classes have, but since people are still asking for comparison shots I can do that atleast. First column is live, second is beta. The third deafen is the lvl 50 trait choice, I was trying to get all 4 choices for every trait so people could make an informed decision upon /respec but there is no /respecs allowed yet. edit: added Fortified Stance and Return to Battle level 50 Master2 trait options, last one is taunting assault I'll try to get that one when beta server is more stable. edit: added Taunting Assault master2 trait and beta version of Rescue I dont have a screen of rescue on live but it's like 500 threat and +1 position with 30min re-use New skills in Beta: Other than the ones already posted in other topics. Stats, first collumn is live, second is beta. I dont have either HP trait (dont ask), since traits were removed its actually a better representation than someone who does have the HP traits on Live. Unbuffed: Self Buffed: With fortified Stance, Call of Protection and Iron Conviction only Equipment Changes: All items have changed in mitigation values, the right side isnt nearly as important as the left in Live even, but moreso in Beta. Firtst two screenshots are live, second two are beta. Sorry theyre so heavily compressed I really dont have the time to crop them all :smileytongue: Live: Beta: As you can see a lot has changed, yet remained the same, I think thats why no one has posted detailed information about every change to the guardian class. We were more of the baseline during changes and havent changed much ourselves, overall. Message Edited by Paen on 08-25-2005 10:14 PM Message Edited by Paen on 08-26-2005 02:01 AM

08-26-2005, 02:58 AM	#2
Aven Elonis Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 273	Thank you for the info. Nice work. Aven 50 Guardian

08-26-2005, 04:01 AM	#3
davidro Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 37	Seems like the only upgrade is the Shield, the rest just gets worse.

08-26-2005, 12:53 PM	#6
Pa Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 64	oops, rescue owns now I know I got a screen here somewhere I'll update post. Protect can still be cast while stunned and stifled, its not listed as an effect (pretty sure it never was) but its in the description and still works.

08-26-2005, 04:23 PM	#7
Mentin Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 163	The biggest change to our playstyle I have seen on beta is that you must use a shield now if you are tanking anything. On live 2h or dual often was the choice when fighting sub-white mobs, on beta shields are so effective that you will get eaten fast if you dont use one. Part of our dps nerfing I guess.

08-26-2005, 05:35 PM	#8
Thor Loremaster Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 80	From the screenies I can see that Deafen adds more threat but Protect lesser. Good thing is Protect now can be used on Epics and recast time shortened from 30 sec to 20 sec and it has a wider range. Anchor in it's current state is superior for long pulls, do we need use bow after the change? It also seems you have to "relearn" how to play our class. Any tips on how to easiest adapt the change?

08-26-2005, 06:34 PM	#9
Shizzirri Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 440	I would call it damage per minute rather than damage per second...

08-26-2005, 06:43 PM	#10
Nazo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 254	DPS for Guardians = Damage Per Season :smileyvery-happy:

08-26-2005, 08:48 PM	#14
Mig General Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 286	From what I've seen if you wanted to be a tank, maybe even a raid tank and didn't care about DPS or utility your going to be happy. If you wanted to have good DPS, be able to solo easy, and still be able to tank well, then your going to be disappointed. If you re-rolled your main 3 months after the game came out because guardians were "teh ubah", your going to be REALLY unhappy.

08-26-2005, 09:00 PM	#15
JNewby Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 644	hey one thing you did not post which I assume will be a huge difference given the spell changes is the def from live and beta... I would be very interested to see how that changes... as really that was our biggest ally and what kept us alive...

08-27-2005, 07:38 AM	#16
Arsen Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 158	Thanks for the pics... two things though. 1. The HTL skill line doesn't seem to be here. I think that will be the line that defines the guardian class. Root + insane aggro. 2. From what other people are saying, the exact numbers on the skills are determined by your stats at the time. IE. Higher STR = more damage. What was your strengh when these shots were taken - if they are with you unbuffed, then we can probably expect them to be higher across the board. And I wonder, does higher INT = better buffs? __________________ Let's keep the discussion out of the realm of the absurd. - SOELegal

08-27-2005, 03:14 PM	#17
Nazo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 254	HTL and its anologues are there but the catch is it needs concentration and we simply dont have enough concentration slots to keep defensive stance buffs and HTL up. I am /feedbacking it and encourage everyone to do so as well. That spell is hugely important and shouldnt be needing concentration. What I suggested was to put it back on timer rather then a permament buff.

08-27-2005, 07:14 PM	#18
Wado Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 67	We have plenty of conc if you just do defensive and no offensive buffs. HTL - 1 Stance - 3 Protection Line - 1 Then, when you're not tanking: RtB - 1 Offensive Stance - 3 Call to War (lvl 51) - 1 Message Edited by Wadoon on 08-27-2005 08:16 AM

08-27-2005, 08:20 PM	#19
Nazo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 254	and where do you fit HP and defense buff in this math ? Namely Call of Protection and Return to Battle ?

08-27-2005, 11:33 PM	#20
Arsen Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 158	My feeling is that in situations where you need a lot of aggro, you are probably going to drop your HP buff and put up HTL. If you look at us in comparison to other fighters, our taunts are pretty average - paladins for instance get that taunt over time skill that ends up being for 1800. No other fighter will be able to match generating 300+ hate on every other monster swing though - if you are fighting groups of monsters, that is huge. __________________ Let's keep the discussion out of the realm of the absurd. - SOELegal

08-28-2005, 12:06 AM	#21
Wado Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 67	What Arsenal said - Drop RtB to put up HTL, then you have Protection, HTL, and Stance up.

08-28-2005, 12:18 AM	#22
Nazo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 254	erm yes sure I can do that but would it hurt you guys if Guardians can do that without loosing 400+ HP ? :smileyhappy: Message Edited by Nazowa on 08-27-2005 01:19 PM

08-28-2005, 12:56 AM	#23
Wado Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 67	It doesn't hurt our class no - we can still get more defense and mitigation than any of the other fighters out there.

08-28-2005, 01:04 AM	#24
Wado Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 67	Unbuffed Defense Buffed Defense (not sure why it's blurry, but the color change made it blurry in game and the ss) And unbuffed

08-28-2005, 09:18 AM	#25
Nazo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 254	Wadoon wrote: It doesn't hurt our class no - we can still get more defense and mitigation than any of the other fighters out there. and turning this buff into no concentration one is already something beta testing Guardians listed in the "Wish List" which I believe would be hugely beneficial and something that I agree fully. With the immense decrease in HP's in Beta (very roughly you loose about 1/3 of your current HP and supposedly mob damage is adjusted accordingly) tackling any heavy caster mob by passes any Defense advantage Guardians might have. Casters simply nuke our arses off and most of the exciting mobs are heavy casting mobs as well :smileywink: Message Edited by Nazowa on 08-27-2005 10:33 PM

08-28-2005, 08:38 PM	#26
OperationsX Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 214	Thank you for the screenies, mucho appreciated. Wow DPS nerf ok But buff and taunt nerf too??! Jez, now I know why all my guardian adepts aren't selling all of a sudden :smileysad: I hope some of that changes before I goes to live

08-28-2005, 08:41 PM	#27
Wado Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 67	The communities "Wish List" doesn't neccesarily include what's best for the game And with caster mobs that's where different fighters come into play with the huge amount of resists our defensive stances give us.

08-28-2005, 09:42 PM	#28
Dassault Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 15	Oh man, they are taking away our only haste ability (Desperate Rush)? What a load of crap. Overall, I don't see anything better in this. Even the equipment looks to be nerfed (mitigation is about half on the Cuirass). Man, all that work and time for nothing. Now I gotta start over with a character that's actually useful (if I can find one after this, that is)... Hey Sony, please send those SWG idiot developers back over the fence and tell them to quit screwing up this game like they did that one, please!! __________________

08-28-2005, 10:14 PM	#29
RafaelSmith Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,808	These changes suck period for ANYONE that didnt pick Guardian to be a raid only MT. Guardian tells Gage..."If you wanted to be a MT then you should have picked Guardian" Gage tells Guardian..."Thats not what the archetype system is about...it needs to be fixed" then comes the revamp. Gage tells Guardian..."If you wanted to be anything besides a raid MT you should have picked something other than Guardian".. [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]? __________________

08-28-2005, 11:16 PM	#30
Nazo Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 254	Wadoon wrote: The communities "Wish List" doesn't neccesarily include what's best for the game Oh I see we got a "Guardian was overpowered so ruining game" Guardian here OK OK And with caster mobs that's where different fighters come into play with the huge amount of resists our defensive stances give us. erm that stance gives 1500 resist to a single stat ? Thats like swapping 2 slots of armor. Yup its gonna make a huge impact on raid tanking. Message Edited by Nazowa on 08-28-2005 12:17 PM