Change to group xp needed---a 2-boxer's perspective

[Tekadeo]

The way xp is shared in a group setting has to be revamped.  You should not get more XP duo or solo than a full group.  I know it makes sense the way it is right now, but it simply isn't healthy for an MMO. I 2box mostly because I am forced to for maximum grinding, even ducking friends and guildmates on a double xp weekend.  Am I selfish?  Probably.  But everyone in Norrath is there to maximize their gameplay.

Simply put, the xp rules should be modified to give at LEAST the same xp as if you solo'd a mob, if not more.  It is a multiplayer universe, we should be encouraged to treat it as such.S

[TwistedFaith]

There should be a incentive to group and go do stuff with others players. It blows my mind that a MMO has a mechanic in place that discourages group play. Is there any sane reason why on double xp weekends it is more beneficial to solo by yourself or with one other person than to form a full group?

[darwich]

ill say this has been discussed many many times, and many many times dismissed... This is one thing i will agree with from the naysayers on this game. Even over the double xp weekend when i was pling an alt, my wife wanted to bring one of her toons to get pl'd and my spirits sank because i wouldnt get near the xp because i would have to share it... groups feel the same way... Honestly the best game i ever saw with a BONUS for each member that joined the group was DAOC... each member that joined the group added a xp bonus, so people wanted that 6th person for the group so theyd get max xp.. this has been a complaint for a long time, not sure why they wont address it..

[Rijacki]

The logic is that a group does content more quickly and thus creates its own bonus. A group can also do some content a solo or duo can't at all.

However, EQ1 had a bonus for each group member added after the 4th (i.e. one bonus at 5 and another at 6). I, too, wish they would implement that in EQ2.

[Tekadeo]

It simply needs to change now.  There isn't really a good excuse for the way it is now, outside of accomplishment.  And when you solo or duo you already have the benefit of keeping all the loot dropped

[Tekadeo]

Rijacki wrote:

The logic is that a group does content more quickly and thus creates its own bonus. A group can also do some content a solo or duo can't at all.

However, EQ1 had a bonus for each group member added after the 4th (i.e. one bonus at 5 and another at 6). I, too, wish they would implement that in EQ2.

The opening statement would only make sense if xp grinding wasnt predicated on taking a lvl 90 player and basically soloing lower level content while the little guys watch/cure/buff.  

Maybe the issue there is the mentoring system though.

Regardless, people will continue to grind xp the way it is, and others will continue to be left out.  It's sad for the game, really.

[Gaealiege]

Perhaps I'm one of the perplexed, but the last time I checked mentoring a character with several other characters is one of the fastest ways to level in this game.  In order to mentor...you must be grouped.

[Tekadeo]

Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:

Perhaps I'm one of the perplexed, but the last time I checked mentoring a character with several other characters is one of the fastest ways to level in this game.  In order to mentor...you must be grouped.

Mentoring a character with ONE other character is the fastest.  Fixed for you.  Adding more cuts the xp by a lot, not sure on the numbers tbh

[urgthock]

Gaealiege@Butcherblock wrote:

Perhaps I'm one of the perplexed, but the last time I checked mentoring a character with several other characters is one of the fastest ways to level in this game.  In order to mentor...you must be grouped.

Chronomentoring. No group required.

[Nrgy]

darwich wrote:

ill say this has been discussed many many times, and many many times dismissed... This is one thing i will agree with from the naysayers on this game. Even over the double xp weekend when i was pling an alt, my wife wanted to bring one of her toons to get pl'd and my spirits sank because i wouldnt get near the xp because i would have to share it... groups feel the same way... Honestly the best game i ever saw with a BONUS for each member that joined the group was DAOC... each member that joined the group added a xp bonus, so people wanted that 6th person for the group so theyd get max xp.. this has been a complaint for a long time, not sure why they wont address it..

Someone is sleeping in the Doghouse tonight ... thats just bad karma.

[SisterTheresa]

Huh.  I have no difficulty in a group, clearing out fast numbers of whites to greens and racking on the exp and AA.  Less downtime more exp.

Maybe it doesn't bother me as much but I do like the idea of an added "full group bonus".

[darwich]

Nrgy@Unrest_old wrote:

darwich wrote:

ill say this has been discussed many many times, and many many times dismissed... This is one thing i will agree with from the naysayers on this game. Even over the double xp weekend when i was pling an alt, my wife wanted to bring one of her toons to get pl'd and my spirits sank because i wouldnt get near the xp because i would have to share it... groups feel the same way... Honestly the best game i ever saw with a BONUS for each member that joined the group was DAOC... each member that joined the group added a xp bonus, so people wanted that 6th person for the group so theyd get max xp.. this has been a complaint for a long time, not sure why they wont address it..

Someone is sleeping in the Doghouse tonight ... thats just bad karma.

no we did end up taking her alt.. then i got her main 40+ aa's by tagging with my zerker in sos while she was sleeping,  so she was happy, and i got 42 levels on my alt in a few hours.. so both were sort of happy... (i would have liked to get 50-60 lol)..

[SpineDoc]

darwich wrote:

Even over the double xp weekend when i was pling an alt, my wife wanted to bring one of her toons to get pl'd and my spirits sank because i wouldnt get near the xp because i would have to share it... groups feel the same way...

I'd give my right arm for my wife to want to hang out with me inside the game!

[Tekadeo]

darwich wrote:

Nrgy@Unrest_old wrote:

no we did end up taking her alt.. then i got her main 40+ aa's by tagging with my zerker in sos while she was sleeping,  so she was happy, and i got 42 levels on my alt in a few hours.. so both were sort of happy... (i would have liked to get 50-60 lol)..

this is just the issue.  I ran Nizara on one server with a 90zerk and boxed another toon and got 18 AA's.  Then ran it on another server but guildies joined and I only got 10.  That's a pretty substantial drop.  And yes the boxed alts had about the same AA levels.  Am I going to turn down guildies' requests to join?  No, of course not.  But am I going to offer?  Prolly not haha.  I would MUCH rather want my guildies or a new player to join just for fun and have a mutual benefit, but definitely not to my detriment.

[Avirodar]

Rijacki wrote:

The logic is that a group does content more quickly and thus creates its own bonus. A group can also do some content a solo or duo can't at all.

However, EQ1 had a bonus for each group member added after the 4th (i.e. one bonus at 5 and another at 6). I, too, wish they would implement that in EQ2.

The "logic" on how things work, and reality, are often entirely different creatures.The mentality that fast levelling occured by having 5 people mentoring a lowbie, was born back in an era where EXPing was too slow to determine any real difference, and back when mentored toons where not superpowered demigods on a scale like they are today. People seen nothing more than 5 mentoring bonus effects and thought it was win. They thought wrong.I conducted a simple test to make it clear for even the sceptics. A level 56 character, mentored by a 90, killing a lvl55 heroic harpy in Pillars of Flames. Each test was done twice to ensure consistancy, and confirmation was made to ensure all bonuses like vitality were in effect throughout.Group of 256_Lowbie + Tank (lvl90 mentoring lowbie)Standard : 295 baseBonus : 413 + 217 (630) bonusesTotal = 925 per killGroup of 356_Lowbie + Tank + Healer (all 90's mentoring lowbie)Standard : 211Bonus : 302 + 151 (453)Total = 664 per killGroup of 456_Lowbie + Tank + Healer + Bard (all 90's mentoring lowbie)Standard : 169Bonus : 248 + 124  (372)Total = 541 per killGroup of 556_Lowbie + Tank + Healer + Bard + Enchanter (all 90's mentoring lowbie)Standard : 135Bonus : 203 + 101 (304)Total = 439 per killIf I am helping a friend level, or grind AAs, and ONE extra asks to join, that's a 30% penalty for my friend. The extra player will contribute so little, it will not provide any kind of legitimate compensation for the loss. Chances are, the extra player may even add some delays to things like changing zones, getting lost/stuck, etc etc.If I am exping a friend, and TWO extras ask to join, that is a fraction off being a 50% penalty for my friend. OUCH! The two extra players will contribute so little, it will not provide any kind of legitimate compensation for the loss. Chances are, the extra players will add some delays to things like changing zones, getting lost/stuck, etc etc.There is a very big reason some people do not welcome any and all to their EXP groups. There is a reason some people are picky about who they let in to their grind groups. It makes a HUGE difference, and this is no fault of players. It is the mechanics that punish players for being socially accommodating. A key fact to remember, 6 people does not mean you are killing 3 times more mobs per hour than 2 people. Things like respawn time, travel time, bio break time, any kind of delay still affects everyone the same, and this accounts for a lot more time than most people realise.When SOE punishers players for being socially obliging, there is a big, big, big, big, big problem. The OP is right on the target. The price for being nice, is far too steep. SOE rewards us for being selfish and rewards us for not allowing extra people to join. If someone is 2-boxing, and simply wanted to get their alt up to 90 with 300 AAs, they would be foolish to allow anyone except another mentored down lvl90 high DPS toon to join them.

[Banditman]

I agree completely with Avirodar.

It is utterly ludicrous the way XP works in EQ2.  If a mob is worth 500 XP for me to kill by myself, it should be worth 500 XP regardless of how many are in my group.

SOE continues to dis-incentivize full grouping with their ongoing support of a terrible system.

[S_M_I_T_E]

Rijacki wrote:

The logic is that a group does content more quickly and thus creates its own bonus. A group can also do some content a solo or duo can't at all.

However, EQ1 had a bonus for each group member added after the 4th (i.e. one bonus at 5 and another at 6). I, too, wish they would implement that in EQ2.

How would we powerlevel alt AA's to 320 efficiently? 

Right now one 90 power killer + ONE mentored stooge = fastest XP / AA XP in the game.  No contest.

It's laughable to see people try and say otherwise especially on double xp weekends.  It's like the Sony people are out in force trying to get people not to level AA as fast for those who don't know better.

For content at cap your logic holds but for what actually grinding is used for now (for alts or AA) a group is a detriment. 

If we all don't hush down enough I'm certain mentoring will get nerfed such that those who are still here will have to get Mercs (AOD) to powerlevel while mentoring like we used to. 

Depending on AOD sales I wouldn't put it out of the question to be nerfed in such a manner to require a purchase of AOD which will result in an epic backfire.  Mercs should be an enabler not a requirement to get around a strategic nerf. 

Unless of course the SOE team pulls a Blizzard and instead gives no nerf but puts a flat bonus on every additional member of a group such that 5 bots and 1 killer > 1 bot and 1 killer which I assume is what your post was asking for.  But if they do that they might as well restore the multiplicative nature of the XP bonuses like they used to be or just give a free 90/300 to each account over 6 months old.

[Nrgy]

Avirodar@Oasis wrote:

Rijacki wrote:

The logic is that a group does content more quickly and thus creates its own bonus. A group can also do some content a solo or duo can't at all.

However, EQ1 had a bonus for each group member added after the 4th (i.e. one bonus at 5 and another at 6). I, too, wish they would implement that in EQ2.

The "logic" on how things work, and reality, are often entirely different creatures.The mentality that fast levelling occured by having 5 people mentoring a lowbie, was born back in an era where EXPing was too slow to determine any real difference, and back when mentored toons where not superpowered demigods on a scale like they are today. People seen nothing more than 5 mentoring bonus effects and thought it was win. They thought wrong.I conducted a simple test to make it clear for even the sceptics. A level 56 character, mentored by a 90, killing a lvl55 heroic harpy in Pillars of Flames. Each test was done twice to ensure consistancy, and confirmation was made to ensure all bonuses like vitality were in effect throughout.Group of 256_Lowbie + Tank (lvl90 mentoring lowbie)Standard : 295 baseBonus : 413 + 217 (630) bonusesTotal = 925 per killGroup of 356_Lowbie + Tank + Healer (all 90's mentoring lowbie)Standard : 211Bonus : 302 + 151 (453)Total = 664 per killGroup of 456_Lowbie + Tank + Healer + Bard (all 90's mentoring lowbie)Standard : 169Bonus : 248 + 124  (372)Total = 541 per killGroup of 556_Lowbie + Tank + Healer + Bard + Enchanter (all 90's mentoring lowbie)Standard : 135Bonus : 203 + 101 (304)Total = 439 per killIf I am helping a friend level, or grind AAs, and ONE extra asks to join, that's a 30% penalty for my friend. The extra player will contribute so little, it will not provide any kind of legitimate compensation for the loss. Chances are, the extra player may even add some delays to things like changing zones, getting lost/stuck, etc etc.If I am exping a friend, and TWO extras ask to join, that is a fraction off being a 50% penalty for my friend. OUCH! The two extra players will contribute so little, it will not provide any kind of legitimate compensation for the loss. Chances are, the extra players will add some delays to things like changing zones, getting lost/stuck, etc etc.There is a very big reason some people do not welcome any and all to their EXP groups. There is a reason some people are picky about who they let in to their grind groups. It makes a HUGE difference, and this is no fault of players. It is the mechanics that punish players for being socially accommodating. A key fact to remember, 6 people does not mean you are killing 3 times more mobs per hour than 2 people. Things like respawn time, travel time, bio break time, any kind of delay still affects everyone the same, and this accounts for a lot more time than most people realise.When SOE punishers players for being socially obliging, there is a big, big, big, big, big problem. The OP is right on the target. The price for being nice, is far too steep. SOE rewards us for being selfish and rewards us for not allowing extra people to join. If someone is 2-boxing, and simply wanted to get their alt up to 90 with 300 AAs, they would be foolish to allow anyone except another mentored down lvl90 high DPS toon to join them.

I am suprised a little, but that's not anything unusual when understanding what people are actually complaining about.

The "Logic" is that the XP system is desgined around the fact that people of like level range group in areas of like level range and in those cases a group of six is ALWAYS stronger than a group of 2 and being so WILL kill more mobs in less time.  You're not going to kill as many mobs witha a Lv 56 Tank + lv 56 Healer as you will if you have a Tank+Healer+DPS+DPS+DPS+Utility all being level 56.

You cannot put any equation including mentored Power Leveling toons into the mix, it's pointless.  If you have a raid geared SK that mentors to level 56 they will kill the exact same number of mobs regardless if there 1 other level 56 toon or 5 other level 56 toons.  Should they get more XP ... or should they get less XP .. or SHOULD THEY EVEN BE ALLOWED TO DO WHAT THE HECK THEY ARE DOING IN THE FIRST PLACE?

[Nynaeve]

totally against this. I dont want to see Powerleveling trains of 5 zombies and one guy pulling them along, probably even sold for Plat in the game. Getting more XP in a group would make PLing even more of a cancer that it already is.

[darwich]

but you would have people looking for viable full groups...

[Banditman]

Nynaeve wrote:

totally against this. I dont want to see Powerleveling trains of 5 zombies and one guy pulling them along, probably even sold for Plat in the game. Getting more XP in a group would make PLing even more of a cancer that it already is.

In a non-penalized system, you aren't getting more XP.  You are getting the exact same amount.  Just MORE PEOPLE are getting it.  The amount of XP is exactly the same.  That's the point.  It gives people an incentive to allow more people in their group.

One (of many) beneficial side effect:  Double XP weekends won't see nearly so many problems with contested dungeons being monopolized by 2 people.  Because now, it doesn't penalize the two people who are there for inviting others to their group.  MORE PEOPLE in the same space.  GOOD.

In a non-penalized system, there is absolutely no reason for a small group to NOT invite you!

[Nynaeve]

when you cut one turkey and share it between 6 people each will get less than if it was shared between 2.

that's not penalized, that's reality.

if you want more people to work together, then you should completely do away with any groups, and each person that hits on a mob gets the percentage of work he does in that area as XP (damage , heal, other spells need to count).

[Banditman]

Nynaeve wrote:

when you cut one turkey and share it between 6 people each will get less than if it was shared between 2.

that's not penalized, that's reality.

if you want more people to work together, then you should completely do away with any groups, and each person that hits on a mob gets the percentage of work he does in that area as XP (damage , heal, other spells need to count).

Wow.  What a totally irrelevant arguement.  And a completely ludicrous idea on top of it.

Again, you are pursuing ideas which drive players apart.  Under your proposed "system", it would be even worse than now.  People would specifically look for places where no one else was so they wouldn't be forced to share any experience with people who were "helping".

It's a frakking MMO VIDEO GAME.  Why is this so hard to understand that inserting artificial penalties to socialization is BAD?

[Masako]

I am going to agree with the (sane) logic people are posting here. This is an MMO, and there should be more incentive to bring along full groups of people and be social other than "it's just faster!". Why not have that bonus of having a full group that EQ1 had as long as the coding allows for it?

I too am one of the people who cringe on the inside when more folks want to join in on an XP grind group. I'm not going to turn people away if they ask, but I'm not likely to offer because I know I'll take such a huge XP hit. I should be wanting to bring more folks along here!

[Talathion]

When I group I only bring 1 person to grind xp otherwise its a waste of time.

[Piratebay]

Well....leading up to 90 I never really group because say im lv 50 I will just chrono down to say 25-30 and kill heroics non-stop and the exp doing that (vet bonus, potions, vitality, double exp maybe) is wicked to say the least.

Im surprised they havent released aa's or something like them that gain from group exp only.   Course in this scenario anybody 2-boxing would just do the same thing and gain group aa's. 

Eh leveling is so easy and mercs are coming...devs should just crank up group exp.  What could it possibly hurt?  They want us all at 90 anyway.

[Kasar]

Dred@Butcherblock wrote:

Eh leveling is so easy and mercs are coming...devs should just crank up group exp.  What could it possibly hurt?  They want us all at 90 anyway.

That brings up a question, do mercs get a cut of the xp or is there an inherent bonus to using them instead of players?

[Katz]

The statement that a group all the same level will kill mobs faster depends on who is in the group.    My SK can kill mobs solo and doesn't need anyone else to speed it up.   My templar on the other hand can't kill as many in an hour as my SK can in a minute, so yeah she would benefit from being in a group.

Anyone who can solo or duo kill mobs fast enough will not want to split exp with others.   Whatever you say about how it evens out by killing more mobs, my observation of players is that they want to limit the number of people in a group to the absolute minimum if the goal of the group is to gain experience. 

However, if the goal of the group is to complete certain content and they are not interested in exp or loot, then that's different.

[Koleg]

Katz wrote:

The statement that a group all the same level will kill mobs faster depends on who is in the group.    My SK can kill mobs solo and doesn't need anyone else to speed it up.   My templar on the other hand can't kill as many in an hour as my SK can in a minute, so yeah she would benefit from being in a group.

Anyone who can solo or duo kill mobs fast enough will not want to split exp with others.   Whatever you say about how it evens out by killing more mobs, my observation of players is that they want to limit the number of people in a group to the absolute minimum if the goal of the group is to gain experience. 

However, if the goal of the group is to complete certain content and they are not interested in exp or loot, then that's different.

And thus the problem .. because you can't have both at the same time.  If they made all mobs fall under the PQ rule set where you have to actively participate and put bonuses on the group members that did and penalties on the group members that didn't it would instantly kill XP grinding Powerleveling and instantly promote like-level grouping.

By making the XP bonus each group members received based on participation and mentored high level players would never even be allowed in a group outside of their range and power.  Of course, you'll all just say the PQ participation code is broken, but I've never been in a single PQ, out of the 400+ I've done, where I didn't get a reward, so shu.

[Starlyyte]

So flipping +1,000,000,000 to Trinity. Thanks much!

I honestly wish I could understand why, why, WHY this has not been addressed in EQ II -- its been brought up by the player base literally for YEARSSSSS.

There are niche players. Decorators, those who spend a lot of time crafting furnishings, mount 'collectors' etc --- let me tell you from my many years in mmo's, enjoying raid competition, family guilds, chunks of time having to solo related to odd/off hours, crafting maniac periods, explorer-centric characters etc etc etc -----in all this time I will tell you there is another niche playstyle and I think its a good percentage of our player base...there are many, MANY people who would be ongoing, long-term subscribers if this one thing were altered. 

There are lots of people who literally just love to come in for their one or three or five hours or however much time they have and just group, after group, after group, or get in an awesome group with players who just sync and go at it for hours. Be it dungeon runs with friends, grabbing a quick p-u-g more often than only when feeling desperate, duoing in some zone and having a couple random folks ask to join in. There are so many examples.

I understand the explanation of how grouping works in EQ II.  What I would so love to know is exactly why SOE hasn't/won't change the grouping to be at least 'encouraged' with extra exp per full group for example, or at most, literally +exp for every additional group member added.

IF as many in these forums have stated repeatedly, the company really does want most of the playerbase to get to, be at -- 90...if that is where SOE can make more cash especially with F2P coming...DO EEEET.   Just one person's opinion and request.  Make grouping the THING again, a main reason to hang with people in our Norrath-- not just have 'chat' available while we do our solo or duo isolation projects.  Thats not to say there is anything wrong with players who enjoy that mode; I love choices for different playstyles; I am asking for grouping to have some additional motivating feature. Please. And, thank you.