Player Made Arrows - Supply and Demand

[FearDiadh]

The Problem

No one seems to want to make these for what is reasonable for players to afford them on most tiers.  The loss of range and accuracy on the vendor arrows is pretty big.  We need some more alternatives.  Especially toward the mid to high levels before the Eagle's Talon, rangers tend to burn thru these quickly.  Woodworkers are not interested in making money off of these enough to bring the prices down to something within reason.  

Lucan D'Lere Prices Today (7/1/10)

Arrow Type               Minimum Price Available

Iron Arrows               30s each (if from player home)

Carbonite Arrows       20s each (only 364 available for less  than 1g each)

Feyiron Arrows          30s each (if from player home)

Indium Arrows            30s each (if from player home)

Adamantine Arrows     1g each

Ferrite Arrows             90s each (if from player home)

Titanium Arrows          20s each (3k available for less than 45s each)

Suggestions for Fixing the Problem

Why not give fletching to rangers as a secondary skill (arrows only) like in EQ?  Or, let woodworkers have mega combines where one combine created 750 arrows, like the spirit-blessed arrows?  What about removing arrows altogether and replacing them with player craftable quivers that give unlimited amount of a specific type of ammo?

[Dareena]

What you're proposing will get the one of the primary functions of the WW class removed.  That's a major issue to a lot of people.  Totems are nice, but it's not the bulk of your average WW's profitable business.

Now I'm just a jeweler on my main.  Don't even get me started on how marketable my wares are anymore with people leveling so quickly, having accessed to the 20th - 60th revamped gear, and having to deal with the insane price inflation on low - mid lvl crafting rares.  In the end game scene, I can't make temp adornments or consumables.  We're pretty much [Removed for Content].

My point is that while my class is already useless beyond the CA upgrades in T9, which is why I was forced to also level cap an Alch alt, I refuse to see another crafting class get gutted down to my level.  I mean, why can't we all be like my Alchemist alt and actually have multiple paths for making viable products?  To this day, I still don't understand.

[FearDiadh]

Dareena@Lucan DLere wrote:

What you're proposing will get the one of the primary functions of the WW class removed.  That's a major issue to a lot of people.  Totems are nice, but it's not the bulk of your average WW's profitable business.

Now I'm just a jeweler on my main.  Don't even get me started on how marketable my wares are anymore with people leveling so quickly, having accessed to the 20th - 60th revamped gear, and having to deal with the insane price inflation on low - mid lvl crafting rares.  In the end game scene, I can't make temp adornments or consumables.  We're pretty much [Removed for Content].

My point is that while my class is already useless beyond the CA upgrades in T9, which is why I was forced to also level cap an Alch alt, I refuse to see another crafting class get gutted down to my level.  I mean, why can't we all be like my Alchemist alt and actually have multiple paths for making viable products?  To this day, I still don't understand.

One tradeskill class should not be getting 90% of it's sales from one adventure class.  Woodworkers need a fix that doesn't involve holding one class up at gunpoint.

[Barx]

I see no problem here. If the price is consistently at that level, then it's clear that people are either happy to buy them at that price, make their own, or deal with vendor arrows. If you want to get in on the action, make a WW or befriend one to get your arrows cheaper.

The rate of creating arrows is already quite fast: 100 arrows in about a minute (1 combine). The spirit-blessed arrows are more not to make it go faster but to keep the number of arrows you get from one rare reasonable.

Seems to me the woodworkers there are quite happy to make money off them but also smart enough to know when something will sell quick enough at a higher price rather than getting into an undercut war.

[FearDiadh]

Barx@Antonia Bayle wrote:

I see no problem here. If the price is consistently at that level, then it's clear that people are either happy to buy them at that price, make their own, or deal with vendor arrows. If you want to get in on the action, make a WW or befriend one to get your arrows cheaper.

The rate of creating arrows is already quite fast: 100 arrows in about a minute (1 combine). The spirit-blessed arrows are more not to make it go faster but to keep the number of arrows you get from one rare reasonable.

Seems to me the woodworkers there are quite happy to make money off them but also smart enough to know when something will sell quick enough at a higher price rather than getting into an undercut war.

A ranger can go through 1500 a night while adventuring.  1500x20s=30,000s=300g=3p.  So why are ranger supposed to make 3p less than everyone else from a night of adventuring?  How are low to mid level rangers even supposed to make a plat in a night let alone 3?

[Dareena]

You're a Ranger.  I really do understand where you're coming from.  But it boils down to a simple issue.  Do we leave the current system in place and shaft the Ranger?  Or do we use your proposed changes and shaft the Woodworker?  Both took time and resources to level.  Both are considered to be actually classes.  So how do we play god?

Now over the years, people have proposed solutions.  Yet to date, Domino and the rest of SOE haven't found an answer which they're satisfied with.  Also let's be brutally honest.  If you decide to play a Ranger, then you know going into the situation that you're going to be as poor as a church mouse since you're effectively firing coins at the mobs.  Intentionally putting yourself into this situation, only to complain about it later, is kind of moronic.

[Tuppen]

I made my ranger a woodworker.

Still, when in a pinch, I always flinch at buying arrows for my bards on LdL.

It must truly suck to be a ranger at level 90 who doesn't have a woodworker in his/her pocket.

[Dasein]

Rangers are in a unique situation, as no other class relies on an ammo-based weapon for a big chunk of their DPS. Sure, other classes use bows or thrown weapons, but those are mostly for situational DPS, or pulling if you're a tank.

Perhaps the solution is to require every adventuring class to rely heavily on some consumable for their DPS - casters should require reagents made by sages or alchemists, melee classes should need to reapply whetstones or some sort of weapon repair kit to keep up their DPS, and so on. This would benefit everyone - crafters would have a new source of income, while adventurers would have a plat sink.

[EQPrime]

Sorry but I already have enough junk to carry around.

Just throw in a couple mid level ammo producing bows as hq's or something to please the mid level rangers.

[FearDiadh]

Dareena@Lucan DLere wrote:

You're a Ranger.  I really do understand where you're coming from.  But it boils down to a simple issue.  Do we leave the current system in place and shaft the Ranger?  Or do we use your proposed changes and shaft the Woodworker?  Both took time and resources to level.  Both are considered to be actually classes.  So how do we play god? (1)

Now over the years, people have proposed solutions.  Yet to date, Domino and the rest of SOE haven't found an answer which they're satisfied with.  Also let's be brutally honest.  If you decide to play a Ranger, then you know going into the situation that you're going to be as poor as a church mouse since you're effectively firing coins at the mobs.  Intentionally putting yourself into this situation, only to complain about it later, is kind of moronic. (2)

1.  I did not just mention the problem and drop it.  I offered several solutions and none of them involved shafting woodworkers.  In the case of rangers making their own, they could choose to do so or if lazy then they could buy them.  Other classes would still need to buy them.  In the case of larger combines, woodworkers still make money, it just takes less work to make them so they can sell them at affordable prices.  In the case of the endless quivers, woodworkers could still make these. 

2.  I'm not sure how long you have been playing, but in the beginning rangers could summon their own arrows and they were as good as any others.  With the addition of accuracy that changed, they were suddenly very poor quality comparatively.  That was years into my ranger.  Recently, however, even the ability to summon low quality arrows was given up (thankfully since it had been made useless) and now rangers can not make their own even if they are flat broke.

Calling someone moronic and using incorrect information to lay those claims at the same time says a great deal about you.

[Dareena]

Jack@Lucan DLere wrote:

2.  I'm not sure how long you have been playing, but in the beginning rangers could summon their own arrows and they were as good as any others.  With the addition of accuracy that changed, they were suddenly very poor quality comparatively.  That was years into my ranger.  Recently, however, even the ability to summon low quality arrows was given up (thankfully since it had been made useless) and now rangers can not make their own even if they are flat broke.

Calling someone moronic and using incorrect information to lay those claims at the same time says a great deal about you.

I'm sorry, but I've recently been reading too much of the TOR forums.  Appearantly most of the people following that upcoming MMO are all WoW refugees and they constantly bemoan how their beloved Vanilla WoW is a completely different game from WotLK WoW.  I can't help seeing the parallels between your arguement and theirs.  Vanilla EQ2 isn't anything close to the current incarnation of SF EQ2.  Trying to base an arguement of a game aspect which has been dead for years is just amusing.

Now I've only been playing for 2.5 years.  Rangers have been firing cash since I've started playing and their summoned arrows were always considered an inferior joke.  Also the ammo summoning bows from the KoS expansion were appearantly considered to be a mistake (after much WW complaints) and were never reproduced.  With that in mind, I'd consider the writing to be on the wall since....  KoS?  Just how many years ago is that?

Dear OP, you've had years to jump ship to a new character.  Or you could have betrayed by now like so many Rangers are doing these days.  (Though my main is a Brigand which I'm stupidly refusing to betray, so I do understand being too pig headed to betray even when it's the smart thing to do.)  I would also consider the whole SK revamp for TSO to have been a red flag for you.  In that revamp, abilities that were basically worthless were permanetly removed and new abilities were given as a replacement.  Considering that the Rangers universally complained that their summoned arrows were worthless, was the minor SF revamp to Ranger really so surprising?

Yes, the system is broken.  I won't deny that.  Rangers are forced to spend a monetary amount that no other class is required to do.  Yet at the same time, you a Ranger which is thoroughly entrenched over the years and have conciously refused to level that character up as a Woodworker.  Umm...  That's kind of mind boggling.  If all of this happened over night, your arguements would be completely valid.  But it's not.

[Writer Cal]

Dasein wrote:

Rangers are in a unique situation, as no other class relies on an ammo-based weapon for a big chunk of their DPS. Sure, other classes use bows or thrown weapons, but those are mostly for situational DPS, or pulling if you're a tank.

Perhaps the solution is to require every adventuring class to rely heavily on some consumable for their DPS - casters should require reagents made by sages or alchemists, melee classes should need to reapply whetstones or some sort of weapon repair kit to keep up their DPS, and so on. This would benefit everyone - crafters would have a new source of income, while adventurers would have a plat sink.

This.  If it's so good to have rangers fork out the cash and support a crafting class daily, apply it to all classes.  Mandatory consumables to perform basic functions for all, or stitch things up so that woodworkers don't rely on rangers and rangers don't need mandatory consumables to function.

(Supported by a ranger who has a woodworker.)

[Jrral]

If you're in a guild, check with your guild's crafters. Or try asking in the Crafting channel for crafters willing to make arrows. My usual reaction to the broker prices is to close the broker window and go see if one of our woodworkers can run me off a full load-out. I suspect a lot of players do the same.

[Rijacki]

Jack@Lucan DLere wrote:

Why not give fletching to rangers as a secondary skill (arrows only) like in EQ?

Any ranger (or not ranger) can choose to be a woodworker (or have a woodworker on another character).

In EQ1, -any- character can choose to skill up fletching (just like any character can choose to be a woodworker in EQ2), even a class without the ability to weild a bow. It was never a secondary skill for rangers. AND the skill has to be trained up just like any other crafting skill. There isn't any automatic skill.

In EQ1, Poisons are rogue only, alchemy is shaman only, research is spell user only, and tinkering is gnome only. ALL others can be picked up by any class or race. Each tradeskill, in EQ1, has to be trained up completely seperately  no matter adventure class or race.

Basically, in EQ2 (and even in EQ1 for most items), if you think the price of any crafted good is too high, you have the option of training up that craft on your character. The only differences are that EQ2's crafting is a class (one per character, except adorning and tinkering) -and- the crafting classes (again, except adorning and tinkering) are trained up by XP, not RNG.

[Ristan]

Jack@Lucan DLere wrote:

What about removing arrows altogether and replacing them with player craftable quivers that give unlimited amount of a specific type of ammo?

QFE.  This is one of the few things AOC actually got right.  Your quivers each had special effects and you could equip one quiver at a time some had procs some had extra range/damage/ etc just like our arrows.  If woodworkers want to cry about not having arrows, then why not have them make the quivers, satchels and whatever else as well as temp adornments for said items.

If you say that you won't make as much as a wood worker making arrows/thrown weapons, then I would say welcome to the world of tradeskilling where as this OP stated your not holding classes at gunpoint.  Armorers, weaponsmiths, jewelers, any class that crafts something for another character, doesn't make loads and stacks of things except alchemists.

If you take arrows out of the equasion, then:

1. rangers dont' have to spend 3p a night on arrows (I used to play a ranger before raid mobs droped plat, and no I didn't have a ww in my pocket because I hate crafting, and I was always broke).

2. You can fix bow vs arrow mechanics to help rangers out a bit.

3. you can nullify the lowbie ranger getting the shaft because their arrows cost 1g+ per arrow because they are below level 90.

My thing is you SHOULDN'T have to create a network of crafters to play your class for the same amount of money as everyone else.  and alternatively you SHOULDN'T have to tradeskill to play your class cause people like me can't make it past level 40 without falling asleep.

Starseeker * Arendul * Ristan * Kyraine * Saewyn * Lyiana * Kicx * Elegi * Anomandaris My Houses: Starseeker's Suite--The Tinkerdome 1.0-- The Tinkerdome 2.0

[Zin`Car]

Jack@Lucan DLere wrote:

Suggestions for Fixing the Problem

Why not give fletching to rangers as a secondary skill (arrows only) like in EQ?  Or, let woodworkers have mega combines where one combine created 750 arrows, like the spirit-blessed arrows?  What about removing arrows altogether and replacing them with player craftable quivers that give unlimited amount of a specific type of ammo?

umm, rangers can already summon arrows...  why give them an additional way of summoning arrows.

There are already weapons that give unlimited arrows.  I know, i have one.  I've not bought an arrow since getting it.  Sure, the arrows are only L60-ish but as an assassin, i dont need anything higher when FREE outweighs the nominal increase in damage that using slightly higher level arrows will get me.  Get one of the bows from DeathToll and you're good or make an alt and level him up as a fletcher so you dont have to whine about the price of arrows anymore.

Your solutions are not well thought out and your problems can all be worked around should you decide to do more than complain about it on the forums.  In fact, the amount of time you spent thinking up your post and then creating it, you could have leveled a fletcher to at least 50.

[Dareena]

Luinne@Kithicor wrote:

umm, rangers can already summon arrows...  why give them an additional way of summoning arrows.

Actually as of SF, they can't anymore.  That old abilities was converts into a triggered damaged ability buff for the Ranger.  The temp buff gives then bonus damage on a certain amount of shots.  I think that it's like 50 shots or something like that.  So over all the Ranger dps rate improved, but it now forces people to use player made arrows.

[Deson]

Jack@Lucan DLere wrote:

The Problem

No one seems to want to make these for what is reasonable for players to afford them on most tiers.  The loss of range and accuracy on the vendor arrows is pretty big.  We need some more alternatives.  Especially toward the mid to high levels before the Eagle's Talon, rangers tend to burn thru these quickly.  Woodworkers are not interested in making money off of these enough to bring the prices down to something within reason.  

Lucan D'Lere Prices Today (7/1/10)

Arrow Type               Minimum Price Available

Iron Arrows               30s each (if from player home)

Carbonite Arrows       20s each (only 364 available for less  than 1g each)

Feyiron Arrows          30s each (if from player home)

Indium Arrows            30s each (if from player home)

Adamantine Arrows     1g each

Ferrite Arrows             90s each (if from player home)

Titanium Arrows          20s each (3k available for less than 45s each)

Suggestions for Fixing the Problem

Why not give fletching to rangers as a secondary skill (arrows only) like in EQ?  Or, let woodworkers have mega combines where one combine created 750 arrows, like the spirit-blessed arrows?  What about removing arrows altogether and replacing them with player craftable quivers that give unlimited amount of a specific type of ammo?

I'm all for the mega combines and an unlimited quiver. If you're willing to endure the forum search, I think you'll find at least a couple threads in the crafting area for this as well from woodworkers.If they add in unlimited quivers though, rare( not just the spirit imbued) arrows have to make a comeback as well.

[Daalilama]

As a ww and someone who has run many scouts and tanks to max level yes it is a royal pita to craft max number of arrows to fill their quivers...however compared to what it used to be of what a stack of 20 per combine 100 is not too bad...as for mega combines for  arrows...bad idea except in the case of the spirt blessed as they take a rare from raid zone

[Seiffil]

Luinne@Kithicor wrote:

Jack@Lucan DLere wrote:

Suggestions for Fixing the Problem

Why not give fletching to rangers as a secondary skill (arrows only) like in EQ?  Or, let woodworkers have mega combines where one combine created 750 arrows, like the spirit-blessed arrows?  What about removing arrows altogether and replacing them with player craftable quivers that give unlimited amount of a specific type of ammo?

umm, rangers can already summon arrows...  why give them an additional way of summoning arrows.

There are already weapons that give unlimited arrows.  I know, i have one.  I've not bought an arrow since getting it.  Sure, the arrows are only L60-ish but as an assassin, i dont need anything higher when FREE outweighs the nominal increase in damage that using slightly higher level arrows will get me.  Get one of the bows from DeathToll and you're good or make an alt and level him up as a fletcher so you dont have to whine about the price of arrows anymore.

Your solutions are not well thought out and your problems can all be worked around should you decide to do more than complain about it on the forums.  In fact, the amount of time you spent thinking up your post and then creating it, you could have leveled a fletcher to at least 50.

If you think you're doing respectable auto attack damage with those arrows from the DT bow, might want to double check your parses, unless you're still using a bow under level 85.  The DT bow summoned arrows are viable only as long as you are using a level 85 bow or lower because of the change to mechanics at SF release.  During RoK and TSO if you had the arrows, you were hurting your dps significantly if you used those arrows with a level 80 bow.  Since you're an assassin, I realize respectable ranged auto attack probably means nothing to you, which is fine because you don't do and aren't meant to do a significant amount of your damage with your bow and range auto attack.

They also still take a further hit since because those arrows are only level 65, there is still a drop in effectiveness as you use them against mobs of higher level, just as the mitigation given from a level 80 piece of armor, isn't necessarily the same as the mitigation from a level 90 piece of armor, even when the numbers are the same.

While yes, leveling a woodworker is an option, people shouldn't be required to tradeskill to make the class they want to play more economically viable.  Until you play a class where the majority of dps comes from their range auto attack however, you can't really pass judgement on what items you think are perfectly fine to use, as any effect that decision has, will have a vastly greater impact on a ranger vs any other scout.

Makeshift arrows when it summoned arrows was never really an option to keep from having to buy arrows.  It summoned about 60 arrows every 10 minutes if you had the master, which in general a ranger could probably go through 60 arrows before the 10 minutes were up.  On top of that, the arrows were worse than any other arrows that could be bought for the appropriate tier.  The change they made to it is a bigger help then the ability to summon arrows.

[Katz]

While I understand some people don't like to craft, it isn't that difficult to level a crafter.  It would save you a lot of money in the long run.

[snowli]

quivers with endless arrows, made by ww.

pouches with endless throwies, made by ws.

my vote.

yes i have a ww, frankly i'd rather sell a few rare quivers than attempt to make profit on five billion arrows crafting and dragging and pricing and repricing and price wars and no answer to vet crate price cutting and sell some for less than they cost fuel or back to the npc, over days, with end resulting profits less than I make in a 5 minute quest.

[FearDiadh]

snowline wrote:

quivers with endless arrows, made by ww.

pouches with endless throwies, made by ws.

my vote.

yes i have a ww, frankly i'd rather sell a few rare quivers than attempt to make profit on five billion arrows crafting and dragging and pricing and repricing and price wars and no answer to vet crate price cutting and sell some for less than they cost fuel or back to the npc, over days, with end resulting profits less than I make in a 5 minute quest.

This really sums up the problem.  Not enough woodworkers are willing to make them.  At 1g an arrow some will, but for a reasonable price few ww want to hassle with the combines necesary to cater to the ranger population. 

Hypothetically, let's say there was one woodworker per ranger on the server making each tier of arrows.  Each ranger is using an average of 1000 arrows per night.  That means 5000 arrows total per day, which is 50 pristine combines.  I have several max level crafters and several mid level crafters, but I would not be interested in making 50 combines a day unless it was for a ton of plat.  Maybe two tons.  And when I had more plat than I could use in the forseeable future, I would quit doing it.

Can I  get a comment from Domino or another dev on this?

[Andu]

Yeah, I have a woodworker. I would be happy to make the volume of arrows required if there was sufficient profit in it to make it worth my time. At the prices quoted on the OP this isn't the case.

Instead I spend 20 mins making adornments and then go and adventure.

[Iskandar]

One thing to keep in mind is that the broker prices are set by players, and having a larger quantity from a combine may not necessarily bring those prices down.

[Gungo]

Iskandar wrote:

One thing to keep in mind is that the broker prices are set by players, and having a larger quantity from a combine may not necessarily bring those prices down.

Easy solution increase the yield from woodworkers creating arrows.and Allow tailors to create quivers with ammo conservation %. The rare backpacks already have 20% weight reduction make the rare quivers have 20% ammo conservation. Place a quiver as a drop or token purchase in each tier that is 60% ammo conservation. 

[Salastine]

Rijacki wrote:

Jack@Lucan DLere wrote:

Why not give fletching to rangers as a secondary skill (arrows only) like in EQ?

Any ranger (or not ranger) can choose to be a woodworker (or have a woodworker on another character).

In EQ1, -any- character can choose to skill up fletching (just like any character can choose to be a woodworker in EQ2), even a class without the ability to weild a bow. It was never a secondary skill for rangers. AND the skill has to be trained up just like any other crafting skill. There isn't any automatic skill.

In EQ1, Poisons are rogue only, alchemy is shaman only, research is spell user only, and tinkering is gnome only. ALL others can be picked up by any class or race. Each tradeskill, in EQ1, has to be trained up completely seperately  no matter adventure class or race.

Basically, in EQ2 (and even in EQ1 for most items), if you think the price of any crafted good is too high, you have the option of training up that craft on your character. The only differences are that EQ2's crafting is a class (one per character, except adorning and tinkering) -and- the crafting classes (again, except adorning and tinkering) are trained up by XP, not RNG.

I think if anyone is mentioning EQ1, the "endless quiver" AA that all rangers have access to must also be considered.  IMO this should have been added to the ranger class a LOOOONG time ago, probably as a first-teir AA in the ranger tree.

[Yimway]

How does one roll a ranger and not chose woodworking as their tradeskill?

My ranger carries the portable workstations and resources to fabricate more at will when needed.

That being said,  I strongly advocate items like the bows from DT that summon arrows being added to itemization in more tiers of play.  Make them ranger only if you like, and that way woodworkers will continue to supply arrows for the rest of the classes, but the ones that rely on them most can more easily be self sufficient.

[Deson]

Iskandar wrote:

One thing to keep in mind is that the broker prices are set by players, and having a larger quantity from a combine may not necessarily bring those prices down.

Prices will settle at whatever those who make arrows find profitable. Based on every time the yield of product has been raised before, prices will drop and supply willl increase because even if it's only a few copper per arrow profit in filling a quiver, someone will do it if it doesn't take too long. Right now, especially for multi-crafters and adventurers, it's just not worth it from any profit calculus to make enough arrows because there's always something that pays better-- unless you just really like making arrows.

Gungo wrote:

Easy solution increase the yield from woodworkers creating arrows.and Allow tailors to create quivers with ammo conservation %. The rare backpacks already have 20% weight reduction make the rare quivers have 20% ammo conservation. Place a quiver as a drop or token purchase in each tier that is 60% ammo conservation.

"Easy" solution was the rare infinite quivers/ammo. A major problem with varying arrow conservation quiver drops is the difficulty, cost and playstyle disparities created/exacerbated by it-- not unlike previous arrow summoning bows;tokens(at this moment) don't cover lower level players either. A non-consumed ammo item covers everyone's common ammo needs without other gimmickry and still allows rare ammo to be introduced and consumed at a rate that doesn't approach infinite because of other "fixes". 

Dairuin@Nagafen wrote:

I think if anyone is mentioning EQ1, the "endless quiver" AA that all rangers have access to must also be considered.  IMO this should have been added to the ranger class a LOOOONG time ago, probably as a first-teir AA in the ranger tree.

Endless quiver wasnt given because without special coding it makes rare ammo a pain in it to introduce because it becomes inifnite. It never goes away and doesn't have the desired costs associated with using it making it another itemization difficulty. I'd link the dev post but search sucks and I'm pretty sure it was lost when they moved to these forums.

[Yimway]

Alternate solution.

Make a crafted 'box of arrows' that has 20 charges of summons 100 arrows of type x.

This box of arrows should have a cumulative fuel cost to represent the higher reward, but provide a faster and simpler method of making and marketing the items.

Maybe you'd even have mastercrafted boxes of arrows that offer 100 charges of a slightly superior arrow?

Crafters are after the profit per combine metric.  This I believe would allow the crafter to make the same or more per combine as well as provide ample supply to a demand market.

I would shy away from solutions that are 'infinite'.