Questions, concerns, or comments about the Top End Guild DPS Parses thread?

slippery · 06-30-2010, 04:26 AM

I worry about the direction of this thread. I appreciate the goal of trying to better balance classes, but I'm not really sure this is going to remotely accomplish this. Quite frankly, even looking at these parses their is such a massive amount of unknown information that makes all of this information completely useless. Because a group is set up a certain way doesn't even begin to show what a person is getting from it. So much depends not just on the gear of the individual player, but the spec's and gear of the players in their group. Just because on person might be geared to the teeth does not speak to the people around them who might be app's, or people around them who might not be doing the right things to maximize that of others. Not to mention one off things like miracles, or what temp buffs might necessarily not have been up, or what things just happen to be flukes of this will probably never happen again. Not to mention the unknown of who got cursed and how long it was on them. Also consider certain issues that might be looked at as class balance issues are going to result from certain itemization choices (or game mechanic choices where things don't impact all classes equally which is a serious problem). There are certain itemization and game mechanic problems that really need to be worked out before class balance gets directly addressed. I'll try to make a more detailed post of where I think your balance problems lie at some point in the near future.

zorkan · 06-30-2010, 05:10 AM

I guess if you only take the numbers from comparable guilds (progress-wise and hence presumably gear-wise), you can make some modest conclusions from the parses. But generally I agree with the previous poster.

Go get them to kill a mob in master crafted gear only. It would also be fun to see those parses for us (would make for a good whip for raid leaders SMILEY ).

Vulkan_NTooki · 06-30-2010, 05:17 AM

Have to agree with Slippery on this one.. Parses are usually just good for boasting purposes.. Unless u break down the data very detailed..

Name-class-dps and group setup wont tell u much.. Unless of course your not using this info for the purpose of class balance, but for some other evil thing.. SMILEY

slippery · 06-30-2010, 06:08 AM

Yea, if you are using this information as a measure of how much hp mobs should have for example, then please do. Get as much information as you can and use it. Get more information from different encounters to see what raids are parsing under adversity with all the effects in certain encounters. This information is very useful as a whole, but not useful at all in comparing classes. I can make any class parse high in a raid, but generally it is just shifting dps from one place to another while not impacting the raid dps as a whole.

steelbadger · 06-30-2010, 06:52 AM

slippery wrote:

Yea, if you are using this information as a measure of how much hp mobs should have for example, then please do. Get as much information as you can and use it. Get more information from different encounters to see what raids are parsing under adversity with all the effects in certain encounters. This information is very useful as a whole, but not useful at all in comparing classes. I can make any class parse high in a raid, but generally it is just shifting dps from one place to another while not impacting the raid dps as a whole.

Werl, from the parses you can see that not one of the guilds thus far uses a Guardian

I was going to say ranger too, but ED has one that seems to do a pretty decent job. And only one each so far of Monk/Bruiser.

I was under the impression that SOE had the ability to access all the logs that we generate, I'm sure one of the previous mechanics devs talked about the tools they had at their disposal to check up on the DPS ranges that each class could achieve at pretty much ever level of the game.

So I dunno why, exactly, they'd want this info. But with enough of it you can do some statistical analysis and see some general trends, at least.

slippery · 06-30-2010, 07:11 AM

I'm going out on a limb here and making some assumptions based on the information available to me. Xelgad's intent upon making this thread was to find out how classes are parsing against/relative to each other. I've illustrated above why I believe this is a faulty way to go about it, because there are still far too many unknowns (the fact that this and many other fights are so dependent on curse cures severely slants raids/dps in favor of the guilds with more templars btw). I believe his intent was based on trying to eliminate some of those variables. While he can get all the parses he wants from the server side the information comes from a vacuum and is meaningless. So, realizing and understanding that, he tried to account for some more variables (raid dps, group make up). Unfortunately, with so much more information still missing it really doesn't help. This is something that really has to hashed out in detail and solved piece by piece. Extensive overhauls don't solve minor balance issues, they create loads more. It is something that there really needs to be a focus group on that can have a good pointed discussion addressing all angles one at a time. I feel really bad for Xelgad, because it is far too much for one person, especially if you don't have really extensive top end raid experience to see how the different nuances and changes have effected things over time. I feel even worse for him for the fact that a lot of the issues aren't necessarily based on the class but on itemization and how certain mechanics work.

Leovinus · 06-30-2010, 07:59 AM

I'd also be interested to know what he means by "top-end" in relation to this thread. Anyone who can actually kill Rathgar? Or (more likely) one that kills, say, 5 of the original 7 Challenge Modes with regularity?

Bruener · 06-30-2010, 10:16 AM

Well it is interesting to see how the numbers are playing out for other guilds, and is probably really the intent of the thread. Most likely it is just to show the player base what SOE already knows with their parses...

For example people talking about Crusaders doing top DPS have no real basis at all based on how low the Crusaders are parsing throughout the thread. Also I see some good parses with Necros and Rangers up at the top. Things look good at the top end as suspected......so how do you balance that at the heroic level?

Encantador · 06-30-2010, 10:21 AM

I dislike the choice of fight. Most of peoples concerns would be taken care of by 'averaging out' over enough parses. However this particular fight will always show at least 2 tanks with way less DPS than is normal for them. Further it would not surprise me if several guilds left the scouts on the named and only had the ranged DPS switch to the adds.

A better choice might be Vaclaz or perhaps Waansu. Where only the OT(s) would be parsing too low.

Encantador · 06-30-2010, 10:26 AM

Bruener wrote:

Well it is interesting to see how the numbers are playing out for other guilds, and is probably really the intent of the thread. Most likely it is just to show the player base what SOE already knows with their parses...
For example people talking about Crusaders doing top DPS have no real basis at all based on how low the Crusaders are parsing throughout the thread. Also I see some good parses with Necros and Rangers up at the top. Things look good at the top end as suspected......so how do you balance that at the heroic level?

The above was posted as I was typing my first reply.

I presume Bruener has never been in this fight. What the parses are showing is that crusaders are dominating the tanking for top end guilds and even eating regular DTs are doing decent DPS.

Boise · 06-30-2010, 10:43 AM

It's pretty obvious that certain classes (Assassins/Wizards w/ @65k+) are way above the parse in comparison to other classes that are not (Ranger @47k+). Rangers are not tier 1 dps from the totals I'm seeing.

AziBam · 06-30-2010, 11:25 AM

Boise wrote:

It's pretty obvious that certain classes (Assassins/Wizards w/ @65k+) are way above the parse in comparison to other classes that are not (Ranger @47k+). Rangers are not tier 1 dps from the totals I'm seeing.

Interesting how people can look at the same thing and reach such different conclusions. I'd read it exactly the opposite. I see that raids are taking only one predator per raid. I see both rangers and assassins from number one to number three on their respective parses. None of these raids listed so far has both predators on them. Same for wizards and warlocks in terms of their relative dps.

Nevao · 06-30-2010, 11:40 AM

slippery wrote:

I worry about the direction of this thread. I appreciate the goal of trying to better balance classes, but I'm not really sure this is going to remotely accomplish this.

Is that what this is for? At this point we have no indication what is trying to be determined by posting these parses. It could just as easily be mob tweaks. That said if it is for class balance I find it a bit confusing that Xelgad has all the parses he needs to prove rangers are fine and do not need any significant change yet he then turns around the next day and starts asking for parses for specific mobs (with more requests to follow). I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, that ship has sailed, but it does lead to a very mixed message to the player base. A proper explanation of what he's trying to accomplish would be nice to have and might help him get more results.

Putyo · 06-30-2010, 12:26 PM

Rangers cap out at about 50k give or take, there is basically no way to push that higher whatsoever unless it is an aoe encounter.

Assassins and wizards both GIVE something to the group and can blow 50k dps out of the water. I regret posting parses because some idiot will think we are "a mighty force"

It is true many small things can change your parse but hopefully with enough parses Xelgad can average them together and get a general idea. Any changes based on these parses is a bad idea though.

Ragefighter87 · 06-30-2010, 12:33 PM

Xelgad wrote:

Calling all high end raiders!
This thread is dedicated to you guys posting your best DPS parses on specific mobs. Right now, we're looking for parses on Rathgar kills from the Underfoot Depths. We're looking for raid parses, not the individual, so please include the classes of the players in your parse, and, if possible, the raid setup.
Soon, we'll ask for different mobs.
Show me the money, guys!

My guess is that they are doing this to balance the mob. Rathgar is probably harder than some of the hard mode mobs, since either you have the dps to beat it, or you don't. And the loot is relatively weak. Instead of wasting time to search through the huge database, he can probably pinpoint the time/date/server from some of the parses and logs.

Gaige · 06-30-2010, 12:41 PM

After the nerf Rathgar is easy. Nerfed HP and he death touches less often.

Striikor · 06-30-2010, 12:48 PM

This is not about balance at all, attempts to derail it to balance issues are wasted. This is about mob adjustment. There are no balance issues, everything is fine. That has been clearly stated by representatives of SOE.

Landiin · 06-30-2010, 01:26 PM

Striikor@Nektulos wrote:

This is not about balance at all, attempts to derail it to balance issues are wasted. This is about mob adjustment. There are no balance issues, everything is fine. That has been clearly stated by representatives of SOE.

Yea all classes are balanced alright! Hey wait, I didn't see a warrior in any of the posted parses... *GASP*

slippery · 06-30-2010, 01:39 PM

To all the people saying it is easy to divine that this isn't about class balance, then why would he need to know what the raid set up is? If it isn't about class balance the only number he needs is actual raid dps, the rest doesn't matter.

AziBam · 06-30-2010, 02:40 PM

Toranx@Crushbone wrote:

Striikor@Nektulos wrote:
This is not about balance at all, attempts to derail it to balance issues are wasted. This is about mob adjustment. There are no balance issues, everything is fine. That has been clearly stated by representatives of SOE.
Yea all classes are balanced alright! Hey wait, I didn't see a warrior in any of the posted parses... *GASP*

I THINK Striikor was being sarcastic about class balance. That said, you need to look more closely. There are warriors in a number of them. I don't see any guards though. I believe that is really what you are driving at anyway.

Undorett · 06-30-2010, 03:13 PM

What do you hope to gain from these parses, and who do you consider "Top End"?

Boise · 06-30-2010, 03:20 PM

Azian@Everfrost wrote:

Boise wrote:
It's pretty obvious that certain classes (Assassins/Wizards w/ @65k+) are way above the parse in comparison to other classes that are not (Ranger @47k+). Rangers are not tier 1 dps from the totals I'm seeing.
Interesting how people can look at the same thing and reach such different conclusions. I'd read it exactly the opposite. I see that raids are taking only one predator per raid. I see both rangers and assassins from number one to number three on their respective parses. None of these raids listed so far has both predators on them. Same for wizards and warlocks in terms of their relative dps.

Exactly. Why have a ranger in a raid that might do 47-50k dps on rathgar when an assassin can easily do 65-70k dps?

My point is pretty simple. Figures do not lie. 47k or 65k? <----Thats a pretty large gap in dps between 2 "supposedly" tier 1 classes.

Dasein · 06-30-2010, 03:39 PM

Boise wrote:

Azian@Everfrost wrote:
Boise wrote:
It's pretty obvious that certain classes (Assassins/Wizards w/ @65k+) are way above the parse in comparison to other classes that are not (Ranger @47k+). Rangers are not tier 1 dps from the totals I'm seeing.
Interesting how people can look at the same thing and reach such different conclusions. I'd read it exactly the opposite. I see that raids are taking only one predator per raid. I see both rangers and assassins from number one to number three on their respective parses. None of these raids listed so far has both predators on them. Same for wizards and warlocks in terms of their relative dps.
Exactly. Why have a ranger in a raid that might do 47-50k dps on rathgar when an assassin can easily do 65-70k dps?
My point is pretty simple. Figures do not lie. 47k or 65k? <----Thats a pretty large gap in dps between 2 "supposedly" tier 1 classes.

There's no way you can draw that conclusion from the dataset.

Carthr · 06-30-2010, 03:45 PM

Boise wrote:

Azian@Everfrost wrote:
Boise wrote:
It's pretty obvious that certain classes (Assassins/Wizards w/ @65k+) are way above the parse in comparison to other classes that are not (Ranger @47k+). Rangers are not tier 1 dps from the totals I'm seeing.
Interesting how people can look at the same thing and reach such different conclusions. I'd read it exactly the opposite. I see that raids are taking only one predator per raid. I see both rangers and assassins from number one to number three on their respective parses. None of these raids listed so far has both predators on them. Same for wizards and warlocks in terms of their relative dps.
Exactly. Why have a ranger in a raid that might do 47-50k dps on rathgar when an assassin can easily do 65-70k dps?
My point is pretty simple. Figures do not lie. 47k or 65k? <----Thats a pretty large gap in dps between 2 "supposedly" tier 1 classes.

You are completely clueless Boise.. You can't do a blanket comparison from two different guilds..

Kyri123 · 06-30-2010, 03:55 PM

Not to mention you can't compare between Russian servers and US servers.

Bruener · 06-30-2010, 04:13 PM

Encantador wrote:

Bruener wrote:
Well it is interesting to see how the numbers are playing out for other guilds, and is probably really the intent of the thread. Most likely it is just to show the player base what SOE already knows with their parses...
For example people talking about Crusaders doing top DPS have no real basis at all based on how low the Crusaders are parsing throughout the thread. Also I see some good parses with Necros and Rangers up at the top. Things look good at the top end as suspected......so how do you balance that at the heroic level?
The above was posted as I was typing my first reply.
I presume Bruener has never been in this fight. What the parses are showing is that crusaders are dominating the tanking for top end guilds and even eating regular DTs are doing decent DPS.

I have been in the fight and I have tanked it. What I see is the other fighters doing similar DPS and at the same point on the DPS chart for the fight as well as Crusaders....doing the same thing. Also you can do this fight while taking 1 death as a fighter if you have a few of them in the raid which means you lose a total of maybe 5 sec DPS if you have somebody decent in your force ready to rez. So you lose out on 5 sec and offensive fighters stacked with buffs and wearing all offensive gear are parsing around bards. Its really not that hard to see and is exactly what will show up continuously as this thread goes on on different mobs.

That being said yes it is clear with the current parses that there are more classes of some than there are of others. Mainly a lack of Guards (which has already been established as needing a lil luv). But comparing fighter DPS across the board it is easy to see that fighters are parsing similar numbers despite their class in relation to their raid. /gasp.

I believe this thread is more to show the player population that there aren't these made up discrepencies...just like I see Rangers holding the same type of positions as the other T1 DPS. That there isn't this different amount of DPS on the Russian servers. That Necros still pump out T1 type DPS. This is all stuff SOE has seen and recognized...now maybe the player population can see it.

Crismorn · 06-30-2010, 04:18 PM

I thought there were maybe 3 top end guilds left at best..

Shareana · 06-30-2010, 04:24 PM

Lets keep these comments here for now so that the original thread does not get clogged up SMILEY

Gaige · 06-30-2010, 04:53 PM

Bruener wrote:

I believe this thread is more to show the player population that there aren't these made up discrepencies...just like I see Rangers holding the same type of positions as the other T1 DPS. That there isn't this different amount of DPS on the Russian servers. That Necros still pump out T1 type DPS. This is all stuff SOE has seen and recognized...now maybe the player population can see it.

Um, I certainly didn't see that at all.

The russians did more raid dps and individual dps with a longer fight time, for instance.

BChizzle · 06-30-2010, 05:00 PM

Bruener wrote:

Encantador wrote:
Bruener wrote:
Well it is interesting to see how the numbers are playing out for other guilds, and is probably really the intent of the thread. Most likely it is just to show the player base what SOE already knows with their parses...
For example people talking about Crusaders doing top DPS have no real basis at all based on how low the Crusaders are parsing throughout the thread. Also I see some good parses with Necros and Rangers up at the top. Things look good at the top end as suspected......so how do you balance that at the heroic level?
The above was posted as I was typing my first reply.
I presume Bruener has never been in this fight. What the parses are showing is that crusaders are dominating the tanking for top end guilds and even eating regular DTs are doing decent DPS.
I have been in the fight and I have tanked it. What I see is the other fighters doing similar DPS and at the same point on the DPS chart for the fight as well as Crusaders....doing the same thing. Also you can do this fight while taking 1 death as a fighter if you have a few of them in the raid which means you lose a total of maybe 5 sec DPS if you have somebody decent in your force ready to rez. So you lose out on 5 sec and offensive fighters stacked with buffs and wearing all offensive gear are parsing around bards. Its really not that hard to see and is exactly what will show up continuously as this thread goes on on different mobs.
That being said yes it is clear with the current parses that there are more classes of some than there are of others. Mainly a lack of Guards (which has already been established as needing a lil luv). But comparing fighter DPS across the board it is easy to see that fighters are parsing similar numbers despite their class in relation to their raid. /gasp.
I believe this thread is more to show the player population that there aren't these made up discrepencies...just like I see Rangers holding the same type of positions as the other T1 DPS. That there isn't this different amount of DPS on the Russian servers. That Necros still pump out T1 type DPS. This is all stuff SOE has seen and recognized...now maybe the player population can see it.

This shows every raid with an SK and a huge amount with multiple SK's. As far as dps on fighters goes this is the worst example to use as the mob death touches tanks, but it is funny we haven't seen a guard yet.

06-30-2010, 04:26 AM	#1
slippery Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,272	I worry about the direction of this thread. I appreciate the goal of trying to better balance classes, but I'm not really sure this is going to remotely accomplish this. Quite frankly, even looking at these parses their is such a massive amount of unknown information that makes all of this information completely useless. Because a group is set up a certain way doesn't even begin to show what a person is getting from it. So much depends not just on the gear of the individual player, but the spec's and gear of the players in their group. Just because on person might be geared to the teeth does not speak to the people around them who might be app's, or people around them who might not be doing the right things to maximize that of others. Not to mention one off things like miracles, or what temp buffs might necessarily not have been up, or what things just happen to be flukes of this will probably never happen again. Not to mention the unknown of who got cursed and how long it was on them. Also consider certain issues that might be looked at as class balance issues are going to result from certain itemization choices (or game mechanic choices where things don't impact all classes equally which is a serious problem). There are certain itemization and game mechanic problems that really need to be worked out before class balance gets directly addressed. I'll try to make a more detailed post of where I think your balance problems lie at some point in the near future. __________________ Arabel/Iguards/Thristin/Islayx, Leader of Equilibrium on Antonia Bayle

06-30-2010, 05:10 AM	#2
zorkan Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 217	I guess if you only take the numbers from comparable guilds (progress-wise and hence presumably gear-wise), you can make some modest conclusions from the parses. But generally I agree with the previous poster. Go get them to kill a mob in master crafted gear only. It would also be fun to see those parses for us (would make for a good whip for raid leaders ).

06-30-2010, 05:17 AM	#3
Vulkan_NTooki Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 644	Have to agree with Slippery on this one.. Parses are usually just good for boasting purposes.. Unless u break down the data very detailed.. Name-class-dps and group setup wont tell u much.. Unless of course your not using this info for the purpose of class balance, but for some other evil thing.. __________________

06-30-2010, 06:08 AM	#4
slippery Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,272	Yea, if you are using this information as a measure of how much hp mobs should have for example, then please do. Get as much information as you can and use it. Get more information from different encounters to see what raids are parsing under adversity with all the effects in certain encounters. This information is very useful as a whole, but not useful at all in comparing classes. I can make any class parse high in a raid, but generally it is just shifting dps from one place to another while not impacting the raid dps as a whole. __________________ Arabel/Iguards/Thristin/Islayx, Leader of Equilibrium on Antonia Bayle

06-30-2010, 06:52 AM	#5
steelbadger Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 816	slippery wrote: Yea, if you are using this information as a measure of how much hp mobs should have for example, then please do. Get as much information as you can and use it. Get more information from different encounters to see what raids are parsing under adversity with all the effects in certain encounters. This information is very useful as a whole, but not useful at all in comparing classes. I can make any class parse high in a raid, but generally it is just shifting dps from one place to another while not impacting the raid dps as a whole. Werl, from the parses you can see that not one of the guilds thus far uses a Guardian I was going to say ranger too, but ED has one that seems to do a pretty decent job. And only one each so far of Monk/Bruiser. I was under the impression that SOE had the ability to access all the logs that we generate, I'm sure one of the previous mechanics devs talked about the tools they had at their disposal to check up on the DPS ranges that each class could achieve at pretty much ever level of the game. So I dunno why, exactly, they'd want this info. But with enough of it you can do some statistical analysis and see some general trends, at least.

06-30-2010, 07:11 AM	#6
slippery Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,272	I'm going out on a limb here and making some assumptions based on the information available to me. Xelgad's intent upon making this thread was to find out how classes are parsing against/relative to each other. I've illustrated above why I believe this is a faulty way to go about it, because there are still far too many unknowns (the fact that this and many other fights are so dependent on curse cures severely slants raids/dps in favor of the guilds with more templars btw). I believe his intent was based on trying to eliminate some of those variables. While he can get all the parses he wants from the server side the information comes from a vacuum and is meaningless. So, realizing and understanding that, he tried to account for some more variables (raid dps, group make up). Unfortunately, with so much more information still missing it really doesn't help. This is something that really has to hashed out in detail and solved piece by piece. Extensive overhauls don't solve minor balance issues, they create loads more. It is something that there really needs to be a focus group on that can have a good pointed discussion addressing all angles one at a time. I feel really bad for Xelgad, because it is far too much for one person, especially if you don't have really extensive top end raid experience to see how the different nuances and changes have effected things over time. I feel even worse for him for the fact that a lot of the issues aren't necessarily based on the class but on itemization and how certain mechanics work. __________________ Arabel/Iguards/Thristin/Islayx, Leader of Equilibrium on Antonia Bayle

06-30-2010, 07:59 AM	#7
Leovinus Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 403	I'd also be interested to know what he means by "top-end" in relation to this thread. Anyone who can actually kill Rathgar? Or (more likely) one that kills, say, 5 of the original 7 Challenge Modes with regularity?

06-30-2010, 10:16 AM	#8
Bruener Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,010	Well it is interesting to see how the numbers are playing out for other guilds, and is probably really the intent of the thread. Most likely it is just to show the player base what SOE already knows with their parses... For example people talking about Crusaders doing top DPS have no real basis at all based on how low the Crusaders are parsing throughout the thread. Also I see some good parses with Necros and Rangers up at the top. Things look good at the top end as suspected......so how do you balance that at the heroic level? __________________

06-30-2010, 10:21 AM	#9
Encantador Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 297	I dislike the choice of fight. Most of peoples concerns would be taken care of by 'averaging out' over enough parses. However this particular fight will always show at least 2 tanks with way less DPS than is normal for them. Further it would not surprise me if several guilds left the scouts on the named and only had the ranged DPS switch to the adds. A better choice might be Vaclaz or perhaps Waansu. Where only the OT(s) would be parsing too low.

06-30-2010, 10:26 AM	#10
Encantador Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 297	Bruener wrote: Well it is interesting to see how the numbers are playing out for other guilds, and is probably really the intent of the thread. Most likely it is just to show the player base what SOE already knows with their parses... For example people talking about Crusaders doing top DPS have no real basis at all based on how low the Crusaders are parsing throughout the thread. Also I see some good parses with Necros and Rangers up at the top. Things look good at the top end as suspected......so how do you balance that at the heroic level? The above was posted as I was typing my first reply. I presume Bruener has never been in this fight. What the parses are showing is that crusaders are dominating the tanking for top end guilds and even eating regular DTs are doing decent DPS.

06-30-2010, 10:43 AM	#11
Boise Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 229	It's pretty obvious that certain classes (Assassins/Wizards w/ @65k+) are way above the parse in comparison to other classes that are not (Ranger @47k+). Rangers are not tier 1 dps from the totals I'm seeing.

06-30-2010, 11:25 AM	#12
AziBam Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 682	Boise wrote: It's pretty obvious that certain classes (Assassins/Wizards w/ @65k+) are way above the parse in comparison to other classes that are not (Ranger @47k+). Rangers are not tier 1 dps from the totals I'm seeing. Interesting how people can look at the same thing and reach such different conclusions. I'd read it exactly the opposite. I see that raids are taking only one predator per raid. I see both rangers and assassins from number one to number three on their respective parses. None of these raids listed so far has both predators on them. Same for wizards and warlocks in terms of their relative dps.

06-30-2010, 11:40 AM	#13
Nevao Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 504	slippery wrote: I worry about the direction of this thread. I appreciate the goal of trying to better balance classes, but I'm not really sure this is going to remotely accomplish this. Is that what this is for? At this point we have no indication what is trying to be determined by posting these parses. It could just as easily be mob tweaks. That said if it is for class balance I find it a bit confusing that Xelgad has all the parses he needs to prove rangers are fine and do not need any significant change yet he then turns around the next day and starts asking for parses for specific mobs (with more requests to follow). I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, that ship has sailed, but it does lead to a very mixed message to the player base. A proper explanation of what he's trying to accomplish would be nice to have and might help him get more results. __________________ Cibilie : 90 Brigand (Main), Dirtnap on Oasis Enaki : 90 Ranger, Dirtnap on Oasis

06-30-2010, 12:26 PM	#14
Putyo Server: Nagafen Guild: Eternal Destiny Rank: Harbinger of Destiny Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 155	Rangers cap out at about 50k give or take, there is basically no way to push that higher whatsoever unless it is an aoe encounter. Assassins and wizards both GIVE something to the group and can blow 50k dps out of the water. I regret posting parses because some idiot will think we are "a mighty force" It is true many small things can change your parse but hopefully with enough parses Xelgad can average them together and get a general idea. Any changes based on these parses is a bad idea though.

06-30-2010, 12:33 PM	#15
Ragefighter87 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 71	Xelgad wrote: Calling all high end raiders! This thread is dedicated to you guys posting your best DPS parses on specific mobs. Right now, we're looking for parses on Rathgar kills from the Underfoot Depths. We're looking for raid parses, not the individual, so please include the classes of the players in your parse, and, if possible, the raid setup. Soon, we'll ask for different mobs. Show me the money, guys! My guess is that they are doing this to balance the mob. Rathgar is probably harder than some of the hard mode mobs, since either you have the dps to beat it, or you don't. And the loot is relatively weak. Instead of wasting time to search through the huge database, he can probably pinpoint the time/date/server from some of the parses and logs. __________________ Ragefighter - Imperium

06-30-2010, 12:41 PM	#16
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	After the nerf Rathgar is easy. Nerfed HP and he death touches less often. __________________

06-30-2010, 12:48 PM	#17
Striikor Server: Nektulos Guild: Purgatory Rank: Raid Team Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 480	This is not about balance at all, attempts to derail it to balance issues are wasted. This is about mob adjustment. There are no balance issues, everything is fine. That has been clearly stated by representatives of SOE. __________________ “The thirst for equality can express itself either as a desire to draw everyone down to one's level, or to raise oneself and everyone else up.” Friedrich Nietzsche “There are two tragedies in life. One is to lose your heart's desire. The other is to gain it.” George Bernard Shaw

06-30-2010, 01:26 PM	#18
Landiin Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,749	Striikor@Nektulos wrote: This is not about balance at all, attempts to derail it to balance issues are wasted. This is about mob adjustment. There are no balance issues, everything is fine. That has been clearly stated by representatives of SOE. Yea all classes are balanced alright! Hey wait, I didn't see a warrior in any of the posted parses... GASP __________________

06-30-2010, 01:39 PM	#19
slippery Loremaster Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,272	To all the people saying it is easy to divine that this isn't about class balance, then why would he need to know what the raid set up is? If it isn't about class balance the only number he needs is actual raid dps, the rest doesn't matter. __________________ Arabel/Iguards/Thristin/Islayx, Leader of Equilibrium on Antonia Bayle

06-30-2010, 02:40 PM	#20
AziBam Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 682	Toranx@Crushbone wrote: Striikor@Nektulos wrote: This is not about balance at all, attempts to derail it to balance issues are wasted. This is about mob adjustment. There are no balance issues, everything is fine. That has been clearly stated by representatives of SOE. Yea all classes are balanced alright! Hey wait, I didn't see a warrior in any of the posted parses... GASP I THINK Striikor was being sarcastic about class balance. That said, you need to look more closely. There are warriors in a number of them. I don't see any guards though. I believe that is really what you are driving at anyway.

06-30-2010, 03:13 PM	#21
Undorett Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 663	What do you hope to gain from these parses, and who do you consider "Top End"?

06-30-2010, 03:20 PM	#22
Boise Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 229	Azian@Everfrost wrote: Boise wrote: It's pretty obvious that certain classes (Assassins/Wizards w/ @65k+) are way above the parse in comparison to other classes that are not (Ranger @47k+). Rangers are not tier 1 dps from the totals I'm seeing. Interesting how people can look at the same thing and reach such different conclusions. I'd read it exactly the opposite. I see that raids are taking only one predator per raid. I see both rangers and assassins from number one to number three on their respective parses. None of these raids listed so far has both predators on them. Same for wizards and warlocks in terms of their relative dps. Exactly. Why have a ranger in a raid that might do 47-50k dps on rathgar when an assassin can easily do 65-70k dps? My point is pretty simple. Figures do not lie. 47k or 65k? <----Thats a pretty large gap in dps between 2 "supposedly" tier 1 classes.

06-30-2010, 03:39 PM	#23
Dasein Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 2,847	Boise wrote: Azian@Everfrost wrote: Boise wrote: It's pretty obvious that certain classes (Assassins/Wizards w/ @65k+) are way above the parse in comparison to other classes that are not (Ranger @47k+). Rangers are not tier 1 dps from the totals I'm seeing. Interesting how people can look at the same thing and reach such different conclusions. I'd read it exactly the opposite. I see that raids are taking only one predator per raid. I see both rangers and assassins from number one to number three on their respective parses. None of these raids listed so far has both predators on them. Same for wizards and warlocks in terms of their relative dps. Exactly. Why have a ranger in a raid that might do 47-50k dps on rathgar when an assassin can easily do 65-70k dps? My point is pretty simple. Figures do not lie. 47k or 65k? <----Thats a pretty large gap in dps between 2 "supposedly" tier 1 classes. There's no way you can draw that conclusion from the dataset. __________________ Troll Lord Casywdian

06-30-2010, 03:45 PM	#24
Carthr General Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 561	Boise wrote: Azian@Everfrost wrote: Boise wrote: It's pretty obvious that certain classes (Assassins/Wizards w/ @65k+) are way above the parse in comparison to other classes that are not (Ranger @47k+). Rangers are not tier 1 dps from the totals I'm seeing. Interesting how people can look at the same thing and reach such different conclusions. I'd read it exactly the opposite. I see that raids are taking only one predator per raid. I see both rangers and assassins from number one to number three on their respective parses. None of these raids listed so far has both predators on them. Same for wizards and warlocks in terms of their relative dps. Exactly. Why have a ranger in a raid that might do 47-50k dps on rathgar when an assassin can easily do 65-70k dps? My point is pretty simple. Figures do not lie. 47k or 65k? <----Thats a pretty large gap in dps between 2 "supposedly" tier 1 classes. You are completely clueless Boise.. You can't do a blanket comparison from two different guilds..

06-30-2010, 03:55 PM	#25
Kyri123 Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 3	Not to mention you can't compare between Russian servers and US servers.

06-30-2010, 04:13 PM	#26
Bruener Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 2,010	Encantador wrote: Bruener wrote: Well it is interesting to see how the numbers are playing out for other guilds, and is probably really the intent of the thread. Most likely it is just to show the player base what SOE already knows with their parses... For example people talking about Crusaders doing top DPS have no real basis at all based on how low the Crusaders are parsing throughout the thread. Also I see some good parses with Necros and Rangers up at the top. Things look good at the top end as suspected......so how do you balance that at the heroic level? The above was posted as I was typing my first reply. I presume Bruener has never been in this fight. What the parses are showing is that crusaders are dominating the tanking for top end guilds and even eating regular DTs are doing decent DPS. I have been in the fight and I have tanked it. What I see is the other fighters doing similar DPS and at the same point on the DPS chart for the fight as well as Crusaders....doing the same thing. Also you can do this fight while taking 1 death as a fighter if you have a few of them in the raid which means you lose a total of maybe 5 sec DPS if you have somebody decent in your force ready to rez. So you lose out on 5 sec and offensive fighters stacked with buffs and wearing all offensive gear are parsing around bards. Its really not that hard to see and is exactly what will show up continuously as this thread goes on on different mobs. That being said yes it is clear with the current parses that there are more classes of some than there are of others. Mainly a lack of Guards (which has already been established as needing a lil luv). But comparing fighter DPS across the board it is easy to see that fighters are parsing similar numbers despite their class in relation to their raid. /gasp. I believe this thread is more to show the player population that there aren't these made up discrepencies...just like I see Rangers holding the same type of positions as the other T1 DPS. That there isn't this different amount of DPS on the Russian servers. That Necros still pump out T1 type DPS. This is all stuff SOE has seen and recognized...now maybe the player population can see it. __________________

06-30-2010, 04:18 PM	#27
Crismorn Loremaster Join Date: May 2006 Location: Vancouver Posts: 2,840	I thought there were maybe 3 top end guilds left at best..

06-30-2010, 04:24 PM	#28
Shareana Lead Volunteer Moderator Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,921	Lets keep these comments here for now so that the original thread does not get clogged up __________________ \|\| Forum Guidelines \|\| Knowledge Base \|\| Tech Support \|\|

06-30-2010, 04:53 PM	#29
Gaige Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Arizona Posts: 9,500	Bruener wrote: I believe this thread is more to show the player population that there aren't these made up discrepencies...just like I see Rangers holding the same type of positions as the other T1 DPS. That there isn't this different amount of DPS on the Russian servers. That Necros still pump out T1 type DPS. This is all stuff SOE has seen and recognized...now maybe the player population can see it. Um, I certainly didn't see that at all. The russians did more raid dps and individual dps with a longer fight time, for instance. __________________

06-30-2010, 05:00 PM	#30
BChizzle Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 2,095	Bruener wrote: Encantador wrote: Bruener wrote: Well it is interesting to see how the numbers are playing out for other guilds, and is probably really the intent of the thread. Most likely it is just to show the player base what SOE already knows with their parses... For example people talking about Crusaders doing top DPS have no real basis at all based on how low the Crusaders are parsing throughout the thread. Also I see some good parses with Necros and Rangers up at the top. Things look good at the top end as suspected......so how do you balance that at the heroic level? The above was posted as I was typing my first reply. I presume Bruener has never been in this fight. What the parses are showing is that crusaders are dominating the tanking for top end guilds and even eating regular DTs are doing decent DPS. I have been in the fight and I have tanked it. What I see is the other fighters doing similar DPS and at the same point on the DPS chart for the fight as well as Crusaders....doing the same thing. Also you can do this fight while taking 1 death as a fighter if you have a few of them in the raid which means you lose a total of maybe 5 sec DPS if you have somebody decent in your force ready to rez. So you lose out on 5 sec and offensive fighters stacked with buffs and wearing all offensive gear are parsing around bards. Its really not that hard to see and is exactly what will show up continuously as this thread goes on on different mobs. That being said yes it is clear with the current parses that there are more classes of some than there are of others. Mainly a lack of Guards (which has already been established as needing a lil luv). But comparing fighter DPS across the board it is easy to see that fighters are parsing similar numbers despite their class in relation to their raid. /gasp. I believe this thread is more to show the player population that there aren't these made up discrepencies...just like I see Rangers holding the same type of positions as the other T1 DPS. That there isn't this different amount of DPS on the Russian servers. That Necros still pump out T1 type DPS. This is all stuff SOE has seen and recognized...now maybe the player population can see it. This shows every raid with an SK and a huge amount with multiple SK's. As far as dps on fighters goes this is the worst example to use as the mob death touches tanks, but it is funny we haven't seen a guard yet.