More Needed: Dirge or Troub?

DiscipleoftheScarredMoon · 04-13-2010, 01:36 PM

So I'm an 80 Dirge right now about to start off on the grand adventure of obtaining my epic, and I wanted to know if it would be worth it to betray and go Troub. I'm eventually going to be doing end-raiding on him, and I wanted to know if I'd have a better shot finding slots if I'm a Troub. My understanding of the situation is that Dirges are in higher demand, but they're also in higher supply, a fact which any Econ 101 student will tell you does not necessarily mean they cost more than a lower-demand, lower-supply good.

Can anyone weigh in?

(Also, I know there have been several threads on the issue of Troub v Dirge, but none dealing directly with the Raid Desirability question, at least as far as search can tell)

Dareena · 04-13-2010, 03:07 PM

While Troub does have some very nice things to offer, I almost always hear people asking for a Dirge. The stoneskin proc and War Cry, in addition to mid raid rezzing, make them a very attractive raiding class. Let alone for heroic play.

Writer Cal · 04-13-2010, 07:28 PM

Dirge.

Troubs mostly support casters, with some incidental help for the other 3 types of classes. Dirges mostly support tanks, scouts, and healers, with some incidental help for casters.

3 to 1 in classes supported makes people tend to look more for dirges than troubs.

Morghus · 04-13-2010, 07:41 PM

As a result of that inflated desirability a troub, let alone a good one is rarer. All things considered though, double bard instance groups with a sk, warlock, and swash tear things up.

Artalis the Elder · 04-13-2010, 07:51 PM

Can't readily count the number of times I've seen "Grp lf dirge/chanter" in level channels. Troubs are only wanted by casters and casters are only 1/4th the population at best.

Kulaf · 04-14-2010, 12:59 AM

If we are talking raiding desireability then I would say Troub. I see more recruitment threads looking for Troubs than looking for Dirges at least on my server.

That said.....no raiding guild is going to let poor performance slide for any class, so no matter which choice you make expect to work your butt off doing the intangibles because neither class is desired for its DPS.

Morgane · 04-14-2010, 06:19 PM

We had trouble finding a reliable Troub in my guild so I betrayed my Dirge. It was painful but I'm learning to like the Troub. We definitely have a few issues that could use some dev attention but all in all it's a rather fun class to play. We can dps well, feed power to guild members (thanks to a new SF AA choice) provide some powerful arcane and elemental wards, buff the heck out of casters, and everyone loves Upbeat Tempo, caster or not. And Victorious Concerto is a powerful tool in a raid and/or group, although a bit complicated to use correctly.

We even have a mez and a charm although they're so underpowered/short-duration that they're only good as a last resort when soloing, imho.

If I was you I suppose I'd check into what raiding guilds on your server were looking for. While it's true that dirges are the most sought-after, it's also true that there are likely many, many more dirges on a server than Troubs.

Shotneedle · 04-18-2010, 02:01 PM

Kiki@Guk wrote:

Can't readily count the number of times I've seen "Grp lf dirge/chanter" in level channels. Troubs are only wanted by casters and casters are only 1/4th the population at best.

Dirges want troubs too!

Saetun · 04-19-2010, 04:19 PM

Kiki@Guk wrote:

Troubs are only wanted by casters and casters are only 1/4th the population at best.

As an assassin at 100+ Double attack, the dirge only brings +5 to flurry (which is nice as long as the tank realizes he has no business with Battle cry when he is not topping the parse). But a troub brings upbeat tempo & Jcap, add in an illy with AI and i'd be a happy scout.

Artalis the Elder · 04-19-2010, 04:45 PM

So you're capped on DPS mod too? You don't like +weapon skills or dmg proc on autoattack? Don't care about CoB? Don't like the 10% accuracy that comes with the buffed Riana's? Don't get me wrong, a good troub is an asset to any group, but if you think that the only thing a dirge is doing for an assassin is double attack you need to check your buffs next time you're grouped with one. My main used to be a dirge, now it's a troub because we needed a good one that we could count on to show up for raids. The difference between dirges and troubs in heroic content is that most groups prefer dirges unless they are running caster heavy. I could go on all day because I know both classes intimately, but I wont bore you.

Chanson · 04-20-2010, 02:43 PM

Saetun@Najena wrote:

Kiki@Guk wrote:
Troubs are only wanted by casters and casters are only 1/4th the population at best.
As an assassin at 100+ Double attack, the dirge only brings +5 to flurry (which is nice as long as the tank realizes he has no business with Battle cry when he is not topping the parse). But a troub brings upbeat tempo & Jcap, add in an illy with AI and i'd be a happy scout.

If you know you will have a dirge, why not swap out some gear so you have around 85 double attack and maybe a little more potency/crit chance/crit bonus. Sounds like the better setup would be to gear up and lose 15 double attack for say 10 crit bonus since the dirge will put you back up at 100 double attack.

Khaerie · 04-21-2010, 04:12 AM

The difficulty with playing a troub is currently the developers seem to be focusing on making them more and more a band aid class. We heal, we cure, we proc, we boost, we give power and we dps. All decently but none on a specialty level. By specialty I mean they don't rock the numbers on any one point.

A dirge is often requested for the single buffs they can give to help with survivability of one individual and to bring it as a melee, close range class with boosts for melee. A troub is requested because despite what individuals think they rock a whole group, fighter or mage. If you look upon the AA set up on the bard side for troubs you will notice you can actually specialize your troub to boost melee or spell casting. Many will make the decision to do both and continue presenting the troub as the band aid class.

I applaud the decision to make our base skill agility but would love to see a more clearly defined difference between the troub and the dirge. I believe the intention of the devs were to make the dirges all about the close encounters and the troubs about the distant encounters. In that light it would make much more sense for a troub to become more about the casting and range fights then the current set up of trying to get us to do a little bit of it all.

Short version of this? Dirge for tank and troub for group.

Jeepned2 · 04-21-2010, 01:46 PM

I quit my Troub to go back to my Coercer at the request of my guild. If it wasn't for the fact that my Troub has his myth, I would have betrayed him in a heartbeat.

Artalis the Elder · 04-22-2010, 01:17 PM

No one can speak authoritatively on the intentions of the Dev's regarding bard balance other than whatever dev was in charge of the changes. The only thing that is clear is that it APPEARS that Dirges were intended to buff melee and Troubs were intended to buff casters. That's cool and all, but A troub is just as much melee as caster so we only buff ourselves a little bit and there are less people casting spells then meleeing, especially in Heroic content. Khaerie wrote:

A dirge is often requested for the single buffs they can give to help with survivability of one individual and to bring it as a melee, close range class with boosts for melee.

A dirge has 0 real single target buffs for survivability. Percussion of Stone is group-wide and Weapon Elusion is group wide. The only things they have that are single target and affect survivability are Gravitas and Sonic Barrier, both of which are short duration so I'm not really sure what you're referring to. People want a Dirge for +37% hate on the tank which works better than -33% hate on everyone else. They want a dirge for DPS mod (works for anyone that swings a weapon). CoB(anyone that swings a weapon), +Weapon Skills (anyone that swings a weapon, Avoidance (tank) and Stoneskin (anyone who gets hit ) and of course Battle Cry. ( Best maintained melee buff in the game) People want a Troub for -33%Hate on non fighters, Aria of Magic (+10% base dmg on spells + dmg proc on hostile spells( for anyone who casts spells) , Perfection of the Maestro (procs dmg on every spell good for spell casters) and Upbeat Tempo (great single target maintained buff for a wide variety of classes). Khaerie wrote:

A troub is requested because despite what individuals think they rock a whole group, fighter or mage.

Huh? How do you figure? 10 double attack? Melee haste? Where are these great melee buffs you are talking about? I'm confused. Maybe you are thinking of Pally's and Sk's who like the spell damage increase? Everything we can do for a melee group a dirge does way better. And for me that's fine. I just wished we buffed Healers better so it was a more even distribution of desirability. Just once I'd like a healer to see me join a group and go "Yes!" Right now that's a reaction I only get from mages.

Wasuna · 05-24-2010, 06:53 PM

My alt is a level 90 troubador and I feel the same way. We buff mages period. If you have a group of 3 mage DPS then a troubador will do WONDERS!

I really like the idea of troubador being able to buff healers better than dirges. Back when getting to 100% critical was an issue, troubadors were actually more accepted since we could put AA's into DKTM. Healers really liked this, along with everybody else, since they'd get a nice boost to healing with criticals. Now that people are doing everything they can to find gear that DOESN'T have 10% critical on it it's not worth anything. I wouldn't keep the buff up if if cost a concentration.

I'm about to totally respec my Troubador to try and get his solo DPS up and get rid of thsoe wasteful AA's spent and one will be the 5 I have in DKTM.

As for the OP, people always ask for Dirges and will accept a troubador if they have to. That being said, I play my Troubador well and I have people asking me to camp my Guardian to get him on at time. Pick what you want to play and play it well and you will enjoy the game.

Klive · 05-24-2010, 07:32 PM

I raid my illy. And that being said I would love a troub in my group. I have a dirge, which is fine, he's a nice fellow.

Now, I'm making a dirge, have her at 76 so far and loving her to pieces. I see "grp looking for bard/chanter" on Mistmoore. So I should be good either way. I don't put my IA on the brig in my group. The dirge puts BC on him and likes IA for himself.

Prestissimo · 05-25-2010, 09:16 PM

When my troub hits jcap and potm, the button spammers wet themselves. (taunts proc potm too fwiw) After that, theres nothing my troub does that a dirge or chanter can't beat it at. Honestly there wont be a bigger demand for troubs until the troub is able to buff equally as many classes as a dirge.

IMO, it should be dirges: fighters scouts, troubs: mages healers.

BTW, pali's like dirges buffs better than a troubs. The only part of a troub that pali's like better is the casting buff that troubs spec (that dirges can get) and their group hate reduction since paladins major hate potential comes from an awesome siphon target; not their ability to generate hate. +hate only works for the hate you generate which on a paladin has a pretty steep curve in relation to gear quality and ability to generate enough hate without amends. Even those conditions though are moot at a certain point gear/buff wise, and then the paladin only really wants a dirge.

04-13-2010, 07:28 PM	#3
Writer Cal Loremaster Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 700	Dirge. Troubs mostly support casters, with some incidental help for the other 3 types of classes. Dirges mostly support tanks, scouts, and healers, with some incidental help for casters. 3 to 1 in classes supported makes people tend to look more for dirges than troubs. __________________ ~Daenee~ Member of the Tom Tobey Fan Club since 2010. Homeshow Designs: Deluxe Seaside Cottage Reckoning Goes Corporate

04-13-2010, 07:51 PM	#5
Artalis the Elder Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 288	Can't readily count the number of times I've seen "Grp lf dirge/chanter" in level channels. Troubs are only wanted by casters and casters are only 1/4th the population at best. __________________

04-14-2010, 12:59 AM	#6
Kulaf Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 387	If we are talking raiding desireability then I would say Troub. I see more recruitment threads looking for Troubs than looking for Dirges at least on my server. That said.....no raiding guild is going to let poor performance slide for any class, so no matter which choice you make expect to work your butt off doing the intangibles because neither class is desired for its DPS. __________________

04-18-2010, 02:01 PM	#8
Shotneedle Loremaster Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 695	Kiki@Guk wrote: Can't readily count the number of times I've seen "Grp lf dirge/chanter" in level channels. Troubs are only wanted by casters and casters are only 1/4th the population at best. Dirges want troubs too! __________________ Buffratx - 92 Beastlord - AB Buffrat - 92 Troubador - AB Arbitrat - 92 Berserker - AB Guarddog - 92 Warden - AB

04-19-2010, 04:19 PM	#9
Saetun Server: Najena Guild: Disciples of Destiny Rank: Members Lord Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 7	Kiki@Guk wrote: Troubs are only wanted by casters and casters are only 1/4th the population at best. As an assassin at 100+ Double attack, the dirge only brings +5 to flurry (which is nice as long as the tank realizes he has no business with Battle cry when he is not topping the parse). But a troub brings upbeat tempo & Jcap, add in an illy with AI and i'd be a happy scout.

04-13-2010, 01:36 PM	#1
DiscipleoftheScarredMoon Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6	So I'm an 80 Dirge right now about to start off on the grand adventure of obtaining my epic, and I wanted to know if it would be worth it to betray and go Troub. I'm eventually going to be doing end-raiding on him, and I wanted to know if I'd have a better shot finding slots if I'm a Troub. My understanding of the situation is that Dirges are in higher demand, but they're also in higher supply, a fact which any Econ 101 student will tell you does not necessarily mean they cost more than a lower-demand, lower-supply good. Can anyone weigh in? (Also, I know there have been several threads on the issue of Troub v Dirge, but none dealing directly with the Raid Desirability question, at least as far as search can tell)

04-13-2010, 03:07 PM	#2
Dareena Server: Lucan DLere Guild: Dark Prophecy Rank: Member Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,074	While Troub does have some very nice things to offer, I almost always hear people asking for a Dirge. The stoneskin proc and War Cry, in addition to mid raid rezzing, make them a very attractive raiding class. Let alone for heroic play.

04-13-2010, 07:41 PM	#4
Morghus Loremaster Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,105	As a result of that inflated desirability a troub, let alone a good one is rarer. All things considered though, double bard instance groups with a sk, warlock, and swash tear things up.

04-14-2010, 06:19 PM	#7
Morgane Server: Everfrost Guild: Bloodforged Legacy Rank: Bloodforged Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 654	We had trouble finding a reliable Troub in my guild so I betrayed my Dirge. It was painful but I'm learning to like the Troub. We definitely have a few issues that could use some dev attention but all in all it's a rather fun class to play. We can dps well, feed power to guild members (thanks to a new SF AA choice) provide some powerful arcane and elemental wards, buff the heck out of casters, and everyone loves Upbeat Tempo, caster or not. And Victorious Concerto is a powerful tool in a raid and/or group, although a bit complicated to use correctly. We even have a mez and a charm although they're so underpowered/short-duration that they're only good as a last resort when soloing, imho. If I was you I suppose I'd check into what raiding guilds on your server were looking for. While it's true that dirges are the most sought-after, it's also true that there are likely many, many more dirges on a server than Troubs.

04-19-2010, 04:45 PM	#10
Artalis the Elder Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 288	So you're capped on DPS mod too? You don't like +weapon skills or dmg proc on autoattack? Don't care about CoB? Don't like the 10% accuracy that comes with the buffed Riana's? Don't get me wrong, a good troub is an asset to any group, but if you think that the only thing a dirge is doing for an assassin is double attack you need to check your buffs next time you're grouped with one. My main used to be a dirge, now it's a troub because we needed a good one that we could count on to show up for raids. The difference between dirges and troubs in heroic content is that most groups prefer dirges unless they are running caster heavy. I could go on all day because I know both classes intimately, but I wont bore you. __________________

04-20-2010, 02:43 PM	#11
Chanson Server: Everfrost Guild: Stormsurge Rank: Officer Alt Loremaster Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 173	Saetun@Najena wrote: Kiki@Guk wrote: Troubs are only wanted by casters and casters are only 1/4th the population at best. As an assassin at 100+ Double attack, the dirge only brings +5 to flurry (which is nice as long as the tank realizes he has no business with Battle cry when he is not topping the parse). But a troub brings upbeat tempo & Jcap, add in an illy with AI and i'd be a happy scout. If you know you will have a dirge, why not swap out some gear so you have around 85 double attack and maybe a little more potency/crit chance/crit bonus. Sounds like the better setup would be to gear up and lose 15 double attack for say 10 crit bonus since the dirge will put you back up at 100 double attack.

04-21-2010, 04:12 AM	#12
Khaerie Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 16	The difficulty with playing a troub is currently the developers seem to be focusing on making them more and more a band aid class. We heal, we cure, we proc, we boost, we give power and we dps. All decently but none on a specialty level. By specialty I mean they don't rock the numbers on any one point. A dirge is often requested for the single buffs they can give to help with survivability of one individual and to bring it as a melee, close range class with boosts for melee. A troub is requested because despite what individuals think they rock a whole group, fighter or mage. If you look upon the AA set up on the bard side for troubs you will notice you can actually specialize your troub to boost melee or spell casting. Many will make the decision to do both and continue presenting the troub as the band aid class. I applaud the decision to make our base skill agility but would love to see a more clearly defined difference between the troub and the dirge. I believe the intention of the devs were to make the dirges all about the close encounters and the troubs about the distant encounters. In that light it would make much more sense for a troub to become more about the casting and range fights then the current set up of trying to get us to do a little bit of it all. Short version of this? Dirge for tank and troub for group.

04-21-2010, 01:46 PM	#13
Jeepned2 Loremaster Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 595	I quit my Troub to go back to my Coercer at the request of my guild. If it wasn't for the fact that my Troub has his myth, I would have betrayed him in a heartbeat.

04-22-2010, 01:17 PM	#14
Artalis the Elder Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 288	No one can speak authoritatively on the intentions of the Dev's regarding bard balance other than whatever dev was in charge of the changes. The only thing that is clear is that it APPEARS that Dirges were intended to buff melee and Troubs were intended to buff casters. That's cool and all, but A troub is just as much melee as caster so we only buff ourselves a little bit and there are less people casting spells then meleeing, especially in Heroic content. Khaerie wrote: A dirge is often requested for the single buffs they can give to help with survivability of one individual and to bring it as a melee, close range class with boosts for melee. A dirge has 0 real single target buffs for survivability. Percussion of Stone is group-wide and Weapon Elusion is group wide. The only things they have that are single target and affect survivability are Gravitas and Sonic Barrier, both of which are short duration so I'm not really sure what you're referring to. People want a Dirge for +37% hate on the tank which works better than -33% hate on everyone else. They want a dirge for DPS mod (works for anyone that swings a weapon). CoB(anyone that swings a weapon), +Weapon Skills (anyone that swings a weapon, Avoidance (tank) and Stoneskin (anyone who gets hit ) and of course Battle Cry. ( Best maintained melee buff in the game) People want a Troub for -33%Hate on non fighters, Aria of Magic (+10% base dmg on spells + dmg proc on hostile spells( for anyone who casts spells) , Perfection of the Maestro (procs dmg on every spell good for spell casters) and Upbeat Tempo (great single target maintained buff for a wide variety of classes). Khaerie wrote: A troub is requested because despite what individuals think they rock a whole group, fighter or mage. Huh? How do you figure? 10 double attack? Melee haste? Where are these great melee buffs you are talking about? I'm confused. Maybe you are thinking of Pally's and Sk's who like the spell damage increase? Everything we can do for a melee group a dirge does way better. And for me that's fine. I just wished we buffed Healers better so it was a more even distribution of desirability. Just once I'd like a healer to see me join a group and go "Yes!" Right now that's a reaction I only get from mages. __________________

05-24-2010, 06:53 PM	#15
Wasuna Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,222	My alt is a level 90 troubador and I feel the same way. We buff mages period. If you have a group of 3 mage DPS then a troubador will do WONDERS! I really like the idea of troubador being able to buff healers better than dirges. Back when getting to 100% critical was an issue, troubadors were actually more accepted since we could put AA's into DKTM. Healers really liked this, along with everybody else, since they'd get a nice boost to healing with criticals. Now that people are doing everything they can to find gear that DOESN'T have 10% critical on it it's not worth anything. I wouldn't keep the buff up if if cost a concentration. I'm about to totally respec my Troubador to try and get his solo DPS up and get rid of thsoe wasteful AA's spent and one will be the 5 I have in DKTM. As for the OP, people always ask for Dirges and will accept a troubador if they have to. That being said, I play my Troubador well and I have people asking me to camp my Guardian to get him on at time. Pick what you want to play and play it well and you will enjoy the game. __________________ The definition of Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

05-24-2010, 07:32 PM	#16
Klive Server: Mistmoore Guild: Mistmoore Eternal Knights Rank: Commander Loremaster Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 396	I raid my illy. And that being said I would love a troub in my group. I have a dirge, which is fine, he's a nice fellow. Now, I'm making a dirge, have her at 76 so far and loving her to pieces. I see "grp looking for bard/chanter" on Mistmoore. So I should be good either way. I don't put my IA on the brig in my group. The dirge puts BC on him and likes IA for himself. __________________

05-25-2010, 09:16 PM	#17
Prestissimo Server: Butcherblock Guild: The Evolution Rank: Noobsauce Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 664	When my troub hits jcap and potm, the button spammers wet themselves. (taunts proc potm too fwiw) After that, theres nothing my troub does that a dirge or chanter can't beat it at. Honestly there wont be a bigger demand for troubs until the troub is able to buff equally as many classes as a dirge. IMO, it should be dirges: fighters scouts, troubs: mages healers. BTW, pali's like dirges buffs better than a troubs. The only part of a troub that pali's like better is the casting buff that troubs spec (that dirges can get) and their group hate reduction since paladins major hate potential comes from an awesome siphon target; not their ability to generate hate. +hate only works for the hate you generate which on a paladin has a pretty steep curve in relation to gear quality and ability to generate enough hate without amends. Even those conditions though are moot at a certain point gear/buff wise, and then the paladin only really wants a dirge.