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Faenril · 01-09-2009, 11:51 AM

OK. So we are changing fame system woot. My thoughts on the issue...A lot of stuff repeated from other posts but I wished a "standalone" post...I try to keep it structured but it's not so easy SMILEY 1) What are we fixing ? What's our aim ?If we are changing fame system for a - hopefully - better system, maybe it's a good idea to summarize what's wrong with current system first, to decide if changes are needed at all, and what we should achieve with these changes SMILEY - FAME SYSTEM DOES NOT PROMOTE FAIR FIGHTS OR FIGHTS AGAINST THE ODDS. IT ENCOURAGES RUNNING AWAY. Because the death penalty is huge when you die and fame is involved. Ppl who "play to win" (fame) won't fight if there are significant chances they may die/loose fame. The reward vs risk is simply not worth it. On top of that the higher your title the harder it gets to earn/recover fame, as ppl protect their title, so the more protective YOU become with your title. This is an endless circle. So high titled players often have the reputation to be cowards, and as a matter of fact we see daily that high titled players run/evac a lot when fame is involved. This is not a very "realistic" mechanic, as typically those who are famous in real life earned their fame by doing great accomplishments, winning against the odds. Examples: beating the champion when you are a rookie, David vs Goliath, beating an army bigger than yours because you are a great strategist ... In EQ2 there is a contradiction that most "famous" ppl are those who tend to escape from battle. This results in less pvp overall (how many times a 6 man group evacced from your 6 man group not to risk fame ?). - FAME SYSTEM DOES NOT REFLECT SKILL. There are countless ways to exploit the fame system, and countless ways to fight "dirty" to earn fame. When I see a player with a high title, I think this player got his title due to one or a mix of the following reasons: *he has higher than usual skills at the game. *he has more knowledge than the average about the game (which gear/clickies to use in pvp). *he has better gear (raid guild ?). *he plays a "fame system friendly" class. (classes with tools to pick their fights, ways to kill fast, stop runners, run fast and escape have an innate advantage). *he is often/always in a (solid?) group. *he spends loot on godspells/blessings. *he spends cash on LoN items. *he carries lots of evac, and never leaves immunity without one. *he will never engage in a fair fight and only look for gank opportunities, or will only engage with all his timers up (including godspells, pvp belt ...). *he bought fame from other players or farmed alts. *he leeched fame. *he exploits or at least takes advantage of stinky game mechanics (choker, safehouse in the air, warping, hiding under the world, feeding a dead alt/friend with grouped with a low title toon...). *the list goes on... So as we can see, while some high titled players show skill at the game, there are so many ways to earn fame with almost no skill involved that you can't assume someone is good because he has a title (which might be the orignial purpose of titles ?). We MAY want a fame system that reflects more player skills at the game ? - FAME SYSTEM IS A SOURCE OF FRUSTRATION. This relates strongly to the death penalty. You earned well desserved fame in a 1:1 or 6:6, and 5 minutes later you get ganked/jumped in a fight and loose fame to scrubs simply because they had numbers over you. How many times did this happen to you ? When I loose fame I do not get mad because I got deranked. Loosing/being outplayed is part of the game... I do get [Removed for Content] off though when I give fame or a writ update to people who do not desserve it, who did not earn it. I do get [Removed for Content] because in an unfair fight (ie 1 vs 6), I lost as much as I would earn from a fair fight that would take me some hard work to win. The idea of giving a reward to ppl who don't work for it makes me upset. Apparently I'm not the only one. When it comes to fame, like with writs, the risk vs reward is completely borked currently. The less risks you take the more you get rewarded by the fame system. While it may sound funny to some ppl, it really gets old after a while and I know some ppl who left the game because they grew tired of this insane system. Loosing players is of course detrimental to PVP. 2) Why is the fame system this way ? It's interesting to try to guess/remember why the designers made the system this way. Maybe there are good reasons for this non sense and we just fail to see them after all ? SMILEY - DEATH PENALTY: One argument in favor of death penalty is that it adds depth to the pvp and makes it more exciting. There is more fun/adrenaline when you know you may loose something valuable if you die. Without it PVP = brainless killing. Some also argue that skill is measured by survival: anyone can kill stuff, but surviving takes skill. I would agree on that if surviving in EQ2 was not trivialized by a few items/abilities/mechanics (evac, track, immunity, level ranges...). Survival in EQ2 takes very little skill if you are devoted to it. In a game where you would have to rely completely on the environment/awareness to survive, then I would agree. Death penalty is one way to prevent everyone from eventually getting overseer. If there was no way to loose fame, then everyone would reach the top eventually, killing the purpose of a fame/title system. Death penalty prevents some exploiting/farming. Without a death penalty friends of opposite alignement could farm each other all the way up to overseer. raids could zerg each other with the same result. THIS IS A KILLING ARGUMENT IN FAVOR OF DEATH PENALTY IMO. - LADDER SYSTEM: A lot of ppl wonder why a general does not get fame from hunter and vice versa... I guess the original idea was that in order to progress to the next rank, you would have to kill players of comparable skill, or at least equally difficult to kill as you, this way it's not trivial to get a high title. If one got fame from any kill, then it would be easier to exploit the fame system: farm an untitled friend toon from opposite faction up to overseer. Farm only untitled bots and evac from anybody else... If hunters could derank generals, under current system some generals would even run/evac from hunters, leading to less pvp than now ! 3) Conclusion/New fame system requirements/features:Ideally we are looking for a system which:a) promotes fighting instead of running/hiding in town or instances. More PvP for the win !b) reflects more accurately player's skills. That's a tricky part !c) does not punish "loosers" too badly, as frustrating customers is not good for business.d) is hard to exploit (alt/friend farming).e) prevents everyone from hitting the top easily. (ie raid zerging each other at docks).f) should be kept simple, to see it implemented SMILEY Current system fails on a) b) c) and succeeds on d) e) f).4) Proposed solutions:Here is a mix of proposed solutions so far, and their pros and cons IMO:a) EVERY KILL TRIGGERS A FAME TRANSFER, THE AMOUNT DEPENDING OF TITLES INVOLVED (hunter vs general thing):+ makes sense. Realistic.- encourages running and leeching. People will only engage against a higher title, as they have little to earn and a lot to loose from a lower title.I do not see that working with a death penalty based system. Would work/make sense under a fame decay/kill count system.b) KILLING YIELDS MORE FAME THAN DYING TAKES AWAY:+ less frustration.- trivially exploitable. Everyone ends overseer if put in current system as is. There is a very good reason currently if total earned fame = total fame loss in a fame transfer.

No. Does not work.c) KILL COUNT BASED TITLES - NO FAME LOSS ON DEATH:+ encourage pvp, running is pointless.- pure kill count based title would encourage huge scale pvp farming.- obvious advantage to exiles. Would have to be based on % of top ranked players on leaderboards (per class), but even this way it would favor groups/raids.

Why not if we can prevent massive zergs for famez. Otherwise it's not working.d) FAME DECAY (ONLY WHEN ONLINE OF COURSE) / TITLE UPKEEP with "PVP STATUS" - NO FAME LOSS ON DEATH:+ encourages pvp.+ kinda makes sense. You have to "defend" title. No pvp title if you don't actively pvp.+ compatible with almost all the other ideas proposed.- How is mass zerging prevented ?- How is friend/alt farming prevented ? ("I have an overseer friend and we kill each other daily to maintain our title").- Has to be tuned differently for exiles/city factions.e) TITLES VISIBILITY SHOULD BE TOGGLEABLE:+ does not hurt anyone ?

Under current system It should only affect the client side: I can hide my title and others title on my screen, but others can see my title if they are interested in fame. Otherwise titled ppl will run from those who "hide" their title.f) IT SHOULD BE POSSIBLE TO TURN OFF FAME SYSTEM INDIVIDUALLY (ONE REMAINS UNTITLED AND NEVER TAKES PART IN FAME TRANSACTIONS):+ don't make me take part in that fame comedy (tragedy ?) if I don't feel like it !+ does not hurt anyone ?Why not, I don't see a problem with that.g) TITLES SHOULD BE KEPT FOREVER ONCE YOU EARN THEM, BUT YOUR "FAME COUNTER" SHOULD STILL WORK AS USUAL IN THE BACKGROUND:+ I don't see a problem with that+ Less running of high titled pplWhy not, but should ppl earn/loose fame depending on their "displayed"/former title or their actual one ? (if so others have to know this actual title...). h) FAME EXCHANGED SHOULD BE BASED ON PARTY SIZE INVOLVED+ better than encounter locking (against pvp spirit and exploitable by dual boxing).- ?

Should be based on something like the squared ratio of party size:If 6 kill 1, solo looses 1/6th fame, and group shares 1/6 fame (=1/36 each). If 1 kill 1 If duo kills 1, solo looses 1/2 fame, duo get 1/4 fame each.If 6 kill 6, each dead loose 1 fame, each winner earn 1.Fame loss should cap to 1 though otherwise a solo who wipes a group/raid engaged in pve would earn exponential amount of fame.5) Final wordCurrent fame system has obvious issues, but death penaly makes it difficult to exploit by farming.Fame decay concept is appealing to me. I like the idea that you don't stay overseer forever while sitting afk at docks or raiding (no pvp notoriety for killing e-dragons sorry). But if a fame decay system was implemented, how would the farming be prevented ? I see no easy way.Maybe leaving fame system untouched and adjusting some mechanics that interact closely with the fame system, would be sufficient. At least it would be great steps forward. For instance:- "cheap" ways to earn/protect fame: exploits, in combat evac ...- "I win" buttons / miracles.- risk vs reward.

01-09-2009, 11:51 AM	#253
Faenril Server: Nagafen Guild: Purity Rank: Sushi Maker - Alt Loremaster Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,136	OK. So we are changing fame system woot. My thoughts on the issue...A lot of stuff repeated from other posts but I wished a "standalone" post...I try to keep it structured but it's not so easy 1) What are we fixing ? What's our aim ?If we are changing fame system for a - hopefully - better system, maybe it's a good idea to summarize what's wrong with current system first, to decide if changes are needed at all, and what we should achieve with these changes - FAME SYSTEM DOES NOT PROMOTE FAIR FIGHTS OR FIGHTS AGAINST THE ODDS. IT ENCOURAGES RUNNING AWAY. Because the death penalty is huge when you die and fame is involved. Ppl who "play to win" (fame) won't fight if there are significant chances they may die/loose fame. The reward vs risk is simply not worth it. On top of that the higher your title the harder it gets to earn/recover fame, as ppl protect their title, so the more protective YOU become with your title. This is an endless circle. So high titled players often have the reputation to be cowards, and as a matter of fact we see daily that high titled players run/evac a lot when fame is involved. This is not a very "realistic" mechanic, as typically those who are famous in real life earned their fame by doing great accomplishments, winning against the odds. Examples: beating the champion when you are a rookie, David vs Goliath, beating an army bigger than yours because you are a great strategist ... In EQ2 there is a contradiction that most "famous" ppl are those who tend to escape from battle. This results in less pvp overall (how many times a 6 man group evacced from your 6 man group not to risk fame ?). - FAME SYSTEM DOES NOT REFLECT SKILL. There are countless ways to exploit the fame system, and countless ways to fight "dirty" to earn fame. When I see a player with a high title, I think this player got his title due to one or a mix of the following reasons: he has higher than usual skills at the game. he has more knowledge than the average about the game (which gear/clickies to use in pvp). he has better gear (raid guild ?). he plays a "fame system friendly" class. (classes with tools to pick their fights, ways to kill fast, stop runners, run fast and escape have an innate advantage). he is often/always in a (solid?) group. he spends loot on godspells/blessings. he spends cash on LoN items. he carries lots of evac, and never leaves immunity without one. he will never engage in a fair fight and only look for gank opportunities, or will only engage with all his timers up (including godspells, pvp belt ...). he bought fame from other players or farmed alts. he leeched fame. he exploits or at least takes advantage of stinky game mechanics (choker, safehouse in the air, warping, hiding under the world, feeding a dead alt/friend with grouped with a low title toon...). the list goes on... So as we can see, while some high titled players show skill at the game, there are so many ways to earn fame with almost no skill involved that you can't assume someone is good because he has a title (which might be the orignial purpose of titles ?). We MAY want a fame system that reflects more player skills at the game ? - FAME SYSTEM IS A SOURCE OF FRUSTRATION.* This relates strongly to the death penalty. You earned well desserved fame in a 1:1 or 6:6, and 5 minutes later you get ganked/jumped in a fight and loose fame to scrubs simply because they had numbers over you. How many times did this happen to you ? When I loose fame I do not get mad because I got deranked. Loosing/being outplayed is part of the game... I do get [Removed for Content] off though when I give fame or a writ update to people who do not desserve it, who did not earn it. I do get [Removed for Content] because in an unfair fight (ie 1 vs 6), I lost as much as I would earn from a fair fight that would take me some hard work to win. The idea of giving a reward to ppl who don't work for it makes me upset. Apparently I'm not the only one. When it comes to fame, like with writs, the risk vs reward is completely borked currently. The less risks you take the more you get rewarded by the fame system. While it may sound funny to some ppl, it really gets old after a while and I know some ppl who left the game because they grew tired of this insane system. Loosing players is of course detrimental to PVP. 2) Why is the fame system this way ? It's interesting to try to guess/remember why the designers made the system this way. Maybe there are good reasons for this non sense and we just fail to see them after all ? - DEATH PENALTY: One argument in favor of death penalty is that it adds depth to the pvp and makes it more exciting. There is more fun/adrenaline when you know you may loose something valuable if you die. Without it PVP = brainless killing. Some also argue that skill is measured by survival: anyone can kill stuff, but surviving takes skill. I would agree on that if surviving in EQ2 was not trivialized by a few items/abilities/mechanics (evac, track, immunity, level ranges...). Survival in EQ2 takes very little skill if you are devoted to it. In a game where you would have to rely completely on the environment/awareness to survive, then I would agree. Death penalty is one way to prevent everyone from eventually getting overseer. If there was no way to loose fame, then everyone would reach the top eventually, killing the purpose of a fame/title system. Death penalty prevents some exploiting/farming. Without a death penalty friends of opposite alignement could farm each other all the way up to overseer. raids could zerg each other with the same result. THIS IS A KILLING ARGUMENT IN FAVOR OF DEATH PENALTY IMO. - LADDER SYSTEM: A lot of ppl wonder why a general does not get fame from hunter and vice versa... I guess the original idea was that in order to progress to the next rank, you would have to kill players of comparable skill, or at least equally difficult to kill as you, this way it's not trivial to get a high title. If one got fame from any kill, then it would be easier to exploit the fame system: farm an untitled friend toon from opposite faction up to overseer. Farm only untitled bots and evac from anybody else... If hunters could derank generals, under current system some generals would even run/evac from hunters, leading to less pvp than now ! 3) Conclusion/New fame system requirements/features:Ideally we are looking for a system which:a) promotes fighting instead of running/hiding in town or instances. More PvP for the win !b) reflects more accurately player's skills. That's a tricky part !c) does not punish "loosers" too badly, as frustrating customers is not good for business.d) is hard to exploit (alt/friend farming).e) prevents everyone from hitting the top easily. (ie raid zerging each other at docks).f) should be kept simple, to see it implemented Current system fails on a) b) c) and succeeds on d) e) f).4) Proposed solutions:Here is a mix of proposed solutions so far, and their pros and cons IMO:a) EVERY KILL TRIGGERS A FAME TRANSFER, THE AMOUNT DEPENDING OF TITLES INVOLVED (hunter vs general thing):+ makes sense. Realistic.- encourages running and leeching. People will only engage against a higher title, as they have little to earn and a lot to loose from a lower title.I do not see that working with a death penalty based system. Would work/make sense under a fame decay/kill count system.b) KILLING YIELDS MORE FAME THAN DYING TAKES AWAY:+ less frustration.- trivially exploitable. Everyone ends overseer if put in current system as is. There is a very good reason currently if total earned fame = total fame loss in a fame transfer. No. Does not work.c) KILL COUNT BASED TITLES - NO FAME LOSS ON DEATH:+ encourage pvp, running is pointless.- pure kill count based title would encourage huge scale pvp farming.- obvious advantage to exiles. Would have to be based on % of top ranked players on leaderboards (per class), but even this way it would favor groups/raids. Why not if we can prevent massive zergs for famez. Otherwise it's not working.d) FAME DECAY (ONLY WHEN ONLINE OF COURSE) / TITLE UPKEEP with "PVP STATUS" - NO FAME LOSS ON DEATH:+ encourages pvp.+ kinda makes sense. You have to "defend" title. No pvp title if you don't actively pvp.+ compatible with almost all the other ideas proposed.- How is mass zerging prevented ?- How is friend/alt farming prevented ? ("I have an overseer friend and we kill each other daily to maintain our title").- Has to be tuned differently for exiles/city factions.e) TITLES VISIBILITY SHOULD BE TOGGLEABLE:+ does not hurt anyone ? Under current system It should only affect the client side: I can hide my title and others title on my screen, but others can see my title if they are interested in fame. Otherwise titled ppl will run from those who "hide" their title.f) IT SHOULD BE POSSIBLE TO TURN OFF FAME SYSTEM INDIVIDUALLY (ONE REMAINS UNTITLED AND NEVER TAKES PART IN FAME TRANSACTIONS):+ don't make me take part in that fame comedy (tragedy ?) if I don't feel like it !+ does not hurt anyone ?Why not, I don't see a problem with that.g) TITLES SHOULD BE KEPT FOREVER ONCE YOU EARN THEM, BUT YOUR "FAME COUNTER" SHOULD STILL WORK AS USUAL IN THE BACKGROUND:+ I don't see a problem with that+ Less running of high titled pplWhy not, but should ppl earn/loose fame depending on their "displayed"/former title or their actual one ? (if so others have to know this actual title...). h) FAME EXCHANGED SHOULD BE BASED ON PARTY SIZE INVOLVED+ better than encounter locking (against pvp spirit and exploitable by dual boxing).- ? Should be based on something like the squared ratio of party size:If 6 kill 1, solo looses 1/6th fame, and group shares 1/6 fame (=1/36 each). If 1 kill 1 If duo kills 1, solo looses 1/2 fame, duo get 1/4 fame each.If 6 kill 6, each dead loose 1 fame, each winner earn 1.Fame loss should cap to 1 though otherwise a solo who wipes a group/raid engaged in pve would earn exponential amount of fame.5) Final wordCurrent fame system has obvious issues, but death penaly makes it difficult to exploit by farming.Fame decay concept is appealing to me. I like the idea that you don't stay overseer forever while sitting afk at docks or raiding (no pvp notoriety for killing e-dragons sorry). But if a fame decay system was implemented, how would the farming be prevented ? I see no easy way.Maybe leaving fame system untouched and adjusting some mechanics that interact closely with the fame system, would be sufficient. At least it would be great steps forward. For instance:- "cheap" ways to earn/protect fame: exploits, in combat evac ...- "I win" buttons / miracles.- risk vs reward.