EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire - View Single Post - Scaling instances: Small groups, duos and 2-boxers getting the short end of the stick?

Kendricke · 12-01-2008, 03:09 AM

Amise wrote:

Kendricke wrote:
Possumu@Splitpaw wrote:
Kendricke wrote:
I've worked 100 hours over a two week period at a desk in a comfy office. I have an uncle who has worked 100 hours in one week on a construction derrick in the Gulf of Mexico. Strangely, his pay for 100 hours was more than double what my 100 hours pay was. I daresay he may have worked slightly harder for his pay than I did.
Time absolutely does not equate to effort. I can log in right now and spend nine hours in game chatting with friends from the comforts of my guildhall. Meanwhile, members of my guild will spend that SAME nine hours levelling up characters by 10 or more levels, running three or more Shadow instances, or tradeskilling through a couple of missions. In nine hours, I can run several heritage quests back to back on several characters, or I can spend that time just checking the broker.
Time does not equate to effort. Not in this world. Not in a virtual world.
Well, I spent my last nine in-game hours running Kaladim for two guildies, getting them several levels. I also healed/tanked OOB, COV, Nest, SOS, Unrest and Mistmoore Catacombs. I did tradeskill quests, explored Moors and levelled my third crafter some. I made a couple of epic tradeskill updates for a few guildies, and I made food, drink and furniture for the guild. I did the harvest cloak quest, and I harvested for my guild hall depot. I healed on a Lyceum raid and I got my Jarsath Wastes hammer, starting from scratch. I bought a couple of masters from the broker and played some LoN to get a painting for my guild hall. I completed several L&Ls and ran some guildies through a couple of HQs . I also levelled my guild to 55.
Is that enough effort for you to consider that per haps, yes, I DO deserve a duo instance or two in T SO? Have I worked hard enough to get some enjoymen t out of TSO?
What is a "duo" instance, anyway? How do you balance an instance so that it's challenging for a Guardian/Templar AND for a Swashbuckler/Ranger combination? Does that type of coding magically write itself for each of the 576 potential two-class combos? Once you have those 576 combinations figured out, do you then take the various achievement combinations into account?
...or do you simply design the content so that a tank/healer can work the encounters? Honestly, how do you design any of the current encounters for just two classes?
The same way you balance it so that it's challenging for a guard/temp/warden/illusionist/assassin/warlock versus a bruiser/mystic/brigand/necro/ranger/dirge, I would imagine. If there are 576 duo combinations, how many six-person group combinations do you figure there are?
The obvious answer is to gear it towards a certain type of group and leave the others out in the cold. Which is what has been done, to a significant extent, in many of the game's heroic instances.
There are some instances in the game where group make-up is irrelevant: you can go in there with a tank, healer and four DPS, or a tank, two healers, three DPS, or a monkey and a box of wet tissues and still win.
There are others where you need a much more specific set of group members to complete the entire instance.
The point being, you're picking up on this issue as it pertains to small groups as a reason not to provide the content, but it's a non-issue because it's already SOP in the whole game. Yes, it would be more difficult if you are designing an encounter for 2-4 people, but I doubt it is impossible, as you make it out to be.

Group content is generally balanced around a tank/healer/dps dynamic. Solo and duo content is generally built in such a way that any of the 24 classes can handle it. It's not a linear equation to "adjust" group content for solo/duo combinations.

Really though, that's not even the point. Look, if you're asking for more solo or duo content, I can agree with that. I also want more solo or duo rated content. I also want more tradeskilling content. I also want more raid content. I also want more contested content. I want more full group content. I want more broker content. I want more guild content. I want more art assets. I want more achievement options. I want more illusions. I want more house items. I want more dragons. I want more dungeons. I want more, more, more, more, more, more, more, MORE.

However, there's a difference between asking for more content and asking for current content to be tuned down to fit playstyle X. Players who don't raid want group paths to obtain their Mythical epics. Players who don't group want alternate methods to obtain void shards. Players who don't tradeskill want different methods to gain grandmaster cloaks or earrings of the solstice or pack unicorns.

This is typically where I draw the line for myself as to whether or not I like a suggestion for new/different/changed content or not. You want more content for playstyle X? Great! So do I. You want to change the content which is currently designed for playstyle Y so it fits playstyle X? Well, now I probably disagree with you.

It's not about whether it's possible or even if it's difficult. It's about whether or not such a thing is "right". I don't think players who can't form up raids should have their Mythicals. I don't think players who can't put together groups deserve void shards (which are only used for legendary set items). I don't think players who don't tradeskill should have pack unicorns. I believe if players want rewards which are set aside for a particular playstyle, then the players should adopt that playstyle at least long enough to gain that particular reward.

Recently, the question was raised on these forums as to whether or not Mythicals should be made available to non-raiders - should the difficulty to obtain Mythicals be adjusted?. Ilucide answered the question thusly: "...that's a question I'm fine with answering definitively. No, it should (and will) not. There's a caveat here though - as there becomes new content, new items, new achievements, new levels, the relative difficulty in obtaining older items (in this case Mythical Epics) will decline naturally. And that's something that we expect, both as players and developers."

I agree with his statement. More to the point, I agree with the underlying logic that supports such a statement.

So no, I don't believe that current dungeons should just be scaled down to fit a particular playstyle. If anything, I believe NEW dungeons should be created that could cater to different playstyles...but I do not feel that such dungeons should award the same or similar rewards that are currently reserved for other playstyles.

12-01-2008, 03:09 AM	#267
Kendricke Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 4,032	Amise wrote: Kendricke wrote: Possumu@Splitpaw wrote: Kendricke wrote: I've worked 100 hours over a two week period at a desk in a comfy office. I have an uncle who has worked 100 hours in one week on a construction derrick in the Gulf of Mexico. Strangely, his pay for 100 hours was more than double what my 100 hours pay was. I daresay he may have worked slightly harder for his pay than I did. Time absolutely does not equate to effort. I can log in right now and spend nine hours in game chatting with friends from the comforts of my guildhall. Meanwhile, members of my guild will spend that SAME nine hours levelling up characters by 10 or more levels, running three or more Shadow instances, or tradeskilling through a couple of missions. In nine hours, I can run several heritage quests back to back on several characters, or I can spend that time just checking the broker. Time does not equate to effort. Not in this world. Not in a virtual world. Well, I spent my last nine in-game hours running Kaladim for two guildies, getting them several levels. I also healed/tanked OOB, COV, Nest, SOS, Unrest and Mistmoore Catacombs. I did tradeskill quests, explored Moors and levelled my third crafter some. I made a couple of epic tradeskill updates for a few guildies, and I made food, drink and furniture for the guild. I did the harvest cloak quest, and I harvested for my guild hall depot. I healed on a Lyceum raid and I got my Jarsath Wastes hammer, starting from scratch. I bought a couple of masters from the broker and played some LoN to get a painting for my guild hall. I completed several L&Ls and ran some guildies through a couple of HQs . I also levelled my guild to 55. Is that enough effort for you to consider that per haps, yes, I DO deserve a duo instance or two in T SO? Have I worked hard enough to get some enjoymen t out of TSO? What is a "duo" instance, anyway? How do you balance an instance so that it's challenging for a Guardian/Templar AND for a Swashbuckler/Ranger combination? Does that type of coding magically write itself for each of the 576 potential two-class combos? Once you have those 576 combinations figured out, do you then take the various achievement combinations into account? ...or do you simply design the content so that a tank/healer can work the encounters? Honestly, how do you design any of the current encounters for just two classes? The same way you balance it so that it's challenging for a guard/temp/warden/illusionist/assassin/warlock versus a bruiser/mystic/brigand/necro/ranger/dirge, I would imagine. If there are 576 duo combinations, how many six-person group combinations do you figure there are? The obvious answer is to gear it towards a certain type of group and leave the others out in the cold. Which is what has been done, to a significant extent, in many of the game's heroic instances. There are some instances in the game where group make-up is irrelevant: you can go in there with a tank, healer and four DPS, or a tank, two healers, three DPS, or a monkey and a box of wet tissues and still win. There are others where you need a much more specific set of group members to complete the entire instance. The point being, you're picking up on this issue as it pertains to small groups as a reason not to provide the content, but it's a non-issue because it's already SOP in the whole game. Yes, it would be more difficult if you are designing an encounter for 2-4 people, but I doubt it is impossible, as you make it out to be. Group content is generally balanced around a tank/healer/dps dynamic. Solo and duo content is generally built in such a way that any of the 24 classes can handle it. It's not a linear equation to "adjust" group content for solo/duo combinations. Really though, that's not even the point. Look, if you're asking for more solo or duo content, I can agree with that. I also want more solo or duo rated content. I also want more tradeskilling content. I also want more raid content. I also want more contested content. I want more full group content. I want more broker content. I want more guild content. I want more art assets. I want more achievement options. I want more illusions. I want more house items. I want more dragons. I want more dungeons. I want more, more, more, more, more, more, more, MORE. However, there's a difference between asking for more content and asking for current content to be tuned down to fit playstyle X. Players who don't raid want group paths to obtain their Mythical epics. Players who don't group want alternate methods to obtain void shards. Players who don't tradeskill want different methods to gain grandmaster cloaks or earrings of the solstice or pack unicorns. This is typically where I draw the line for myself as to whether or not I like a suggestion for new/different/changed content or not. You want more content for playstyle X? Great! So do I. You want to change the content which is currently designed for playstyle Y so it fits playstyle X? Well, now I probably disagree with you. It's not about whether it's possible or even if it's difficult. It's about whether or not such a thing is "right". I don't think players who can't form up raids should have their Mythicals. I don't think players who can't put together groups deserve void shards (which are only used for legendary set items). I don't think players who don't tradeskill should have pack unicorns. I believe if players want rewards which are set aside for a particular playstyle, then the players should adopt that playstyle at least long enough to gain that particular reward. Recently, the question was raised on these forums as to whether or not Mythicals should be made available to non-raiders - should the difficulty to obtain Mythicals be adjusted?. Ilucide answered the question thusly: "...that's a question I'm fine with answering definitively. No, it should (and will) not. There's a caveat here though - as there becomes new content, new items, new achievements, new levels, the relative difficulty in obtaining older items (in this case Mythical Epics) will decline naturally. And that's something that we expect, both as players and developers." I agree with his statement. More to the point, I agree with the underlying logic that supports such a statement. So no, I don't believe that current dungeons should just be scaled down to fit a particular playstyle. If anything, I believe NEW dungeons should be created that could cater to different playstyles...but I do not feel that such dungeons should award the same or similar rewards that are currently reserved for other playstyles. __________________ * -Opinions expressed in this post do not represent any current or past employers.