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MeridianR · 02-12-2006, 05:27 AM

Leawyn wrote:
Anariale wrote:
"When Paladins realize that they are not intended to be the go-to raid tank, and settle into the role they ARE intended as (support, back up tank, specialist tanks) then they will be much happier. I'm more than happy to hand off my mitigation buff to a tank if it means bigger better success for my group or raid. Its my role. I play my part to help assist in a win, not to boost my own ego."

No one tank was designed to be MT for every encounter. Paladins have an edge against heavy casting raid mobs while Guardians have an edge when the mobs are heavy melee. Noone, nowhere said that Guardians were intended to be the give-all, end-all raid tank. In fact, SOE has said the exact opposite... that it is more player-based than class-based and certain circumstances will orient themselves slightly better to one class over another.

The problem lies more with the common misconceptions of classes. People want to believe that there is one best way to do something, when its simply not true. Furthermore, its attitudes like this that reinforce player rumor and conjecture as to the abilities of a tank class... reinforcing the false notion of the "only one tank".

Thus, dont even start the crap of "Paladins arent meant to tank". Noone here wants to hear it anyways, and no matter how misconceived your notions may be youre not going to convince people who do it every day that we are wrong.

Message Edited by Anariale on 02-11-200604:42 PM
I *NEVER* said Paladins weren't meant to tank. I said we were meant to tank is certain situations (aka "Specialist tank&quot. I also agree Guards are not the "end all, be all raid tank". In most cases they are the obvious choice, especially when facing a mob for the first time of which you have little to no knowledge. Find out what it does, then rearrange accordingly. But they should never be considered the ONLY choice.Where did you see this? I would love to have known before I rolled a Paladin that I was going to be a "Specialist tank", and not able to tank anything in the game like a Warrior. The only thing that has ever been said to that effect is by the player community themselves. Fact of the matter now, is that there isn't a reason for a Paladin in any group on a raid....sure we can add mitigation (which I never quite understood since well, why would we give our mitigation away when we are supposed to be tanks....we should have a self buff), and resists in the MT group. Or we can add a little dps, but there is no clearly defined role that we have. Ok so someone is going to say, but we have amends and that is uber!! ...but lets look at all the above points:-- Mitigation Buff - Shadowknights do the same thing, and they buff HP as well (Stamina buff)...plus add more dps, and some decent debuffs - Winner SK-- Resists - With Master 1 Crusade we give about 150ish resists....ok buy a potion for the specifc resists you need and get 600, or buy a +47 Wis/Int potion ... - Winner Potion-- Amends - We can xfer some of a high DPS hate to us, so they don't pull aggro....ok, form a dps group (or 2) place a Troubador in those groups and watch all 5 dps burn like crazy - Winner TroubLastly people will come up with "We are arcane tanks" - ummm ok like I said before if you count us being able to have some pretty nice Divine / Magic resists (especially in a MT group with a Templar) then I guess I can buy that argument....but any mobs who have say a Divine/Magic DD or AE also hit for crazy Physical Damage as well.....and we fall far behind a Warrior in Phyiscal Mitigation because of there self buff, and also because of there ancient teaching. Now with AA's they will have even more, which should bode well for us tanking anything....I consider myself a pretty decent Paladin...I am geared pretty decent (I believe), have a good knowledge of our skills, and understand the game fairly well.....The fact of the matter is though, that there is no real need for a Paladin MT in a raid setting at the moment. Let's face facts, we are a Tank, not a healer....not dps, not a buff class. While we may be able to do those things, we are not specialized in them.... If we are supposed to be a Tank, then we need the tools to be a tank. I am fine with not getting the same Physical Mitigation buffs as a Warrior, BUT if our role is supposed to be that of an Arcane Tank, then something needs to be done to distinguish us in that regards. Give us a temporary +300 Resist Buff....let us absorb x amount of casting mobs incoming attacks....something!!What I'm tired of hearing is Paladins wanting to tank EVERYTHING. Well, I'm sorry, but we're not meant to tank EVERYTHING. We are designed to better withstand certain spells and tank in certain circumstances (I'm not nearly high enough level to pretend I know what those are). But I'm tired of other Pallies whining because they don't have mitigation or hps like a Guard. Well... you want hps and mit like a guard, play a guard. You want to be something special, more than just a meat sheild, then continue to play your Pally.Get to L60 start raiding T6 instances, and then tell me which epics we are better suited to tank then a Guardian. Some people might think The Black Queen because of Magic Resists....fine and dandy til she hits you with her Piercing attack 2 rounds in a row. I am fine with the HP position because with potions we can get right around them, but mitigation is king still.I consider myself a pretty good tank, I get complimented alot when I am in groups. But I will be the first one to admit that I am no expert. I played a pally for 70 levels in EQ1 and I knew my role then and I am confident I played it well. I am only 47 but leveling fast to join my guild in raids. Raiding is what I want to do. But, I have learned in my many years of MMOing, that no matter what, there will always be people who think their class needs to be improved, they want to be the best tank, best heals, best dps out there. Well, you can't be the best at everything. If you choose to play a hybrid, you have to understand your limitations. If you choose to play a hybrid WELL, you can and will work around those limitations to accomplish your goals.See my above comments, since I have to get back to work and don't have time to respond to this part Now I'm getting off my soap box.

Summary:I signed up to be a tank, and while I understand that we can't be a copy of a Warrior tank...we still need some type of advantage over a Warrior in tanking. As I stated above, there are ways to do that, without giving us the same Physical Mitigation (by giving us the same types of skills but arcane based).When you get to L60 and start raiding, you will fast find out that unless you consider tanking yard trash to be fullfilling, that I was indeed correct SMILEY

-- and dont' get my started on aggro control, because I am hoping with LU20 fixing Sigil that we can at least get some help with that.^^ re-reading this it seems I might have came off pretty harsh....if I did sound that way I am sorry.. I didn't mean for it to come out that way (as most people here can attest, I am a pretty nice guy)

02-12-2006, 05:27 AM	#65
MeridianR Loremaster Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,402	Leawyn wrote: Anariale wrote: "When Paladins realize that they are not intended to be the go-to raid tank, and settle into the role they ARE intended as (support, back up tank, specialist tanks) then they will be much happier. I'm more than happy to hand off my mitigation buff to a tank if it means bigger better success for my group or raid. Its my role. I play my part to help assist in a win, not to boost my own ego." No one tank was designed to be MT for every encounter. Paladins have an edge against heavy casting raid mobs while Guardians have an edge when the mobs are heavy melee. Noone, nowhere said that Guardians were intended to be the give-all, end-all raid tank. In fact, SOE has said the exact opposite... that it is more player-based than class-based and certain circumstances will orient themselves slightly better to one class over another. The problem lies more with the common misconceptions of classes. People want to believe that there is one best way to do something, when its simply not true. Furthermore, its attitudes like this that reinforce player rumor and conjecture as to the abilities of a tank class... reinforcing the false notion of the "only one tank". Thus, dont even start the crap of "Paladins arent meant to tank". Noone here wants to hear it anyways, and no matter how misconceived your notions may be youre not going to convince people who do it every day that we are wrong. Message Edited by Anariale on 02-11-200604:42 PM I NEVER said Paladins weren't meant to tank. I said we were meant to tank is certain situations (aka "Specialist tank&quot. I also agree Guards are not the "end all, be all raid tank". In most cases they are the obvious choice, especially when facing a mob for the first time of which you have little to no knowledge. Find out what it does, then rearrange accordingly. But they should never be considered the ONLY choice.Where did you see this? I would love to have known before I rolled a Paladin that I was going to be a "Specialist tank", and not able to tank anything in the game like a Warrior. The only thing that has ever been said to that effect is by the player community themselves. Fact of the matter now, is that there isn't a reason for a Paladin in any group on a raid....sure we can add mitigation (which I never quite understood since well, why would we give our mitigation away when we are supposed to be tanks....we should have a self buff), and resists in the MT group. Or we can add a little dps, but there is no clearly defined role that we have. Ok so someone is going to say, but we have amends and that is uber!! ...but lets look at all the above points:-- Mitigation Buff - Shadowknights do the same thing, and they buff HP as well (Stamina buff)...plus add more dps, and some decent debuffs - Winner SK-- Resists - With Master 1 Crusade we give about 150ish resists....ok buy a potion for the specifc resists you need and get 600, or buy a +47 Wis/Int potion ... - Winner Potion-- Amends - We can xfer some of a high DPS hate to us, so they don't pull aggro....ok, form a dps group (or 2) place a Troubador in those groups and watch all 5 dps burn like crazy - Winner TroubLastly people will come up with "We are arcane tanks" - ummm ok like I said before if you count us being able to have some pretty nice Divine / Magic resists (especially in a MT group with a Templar) then I guess I can buy that argument....but any mobs who have say a Divine/Magic DD or AE also hit for crazy Physical Damage as well.....and we fall far behind a Warrior in Phyiscal Mitigation because of there self buff, and also because of there ancient teaching. Now with AA's they will have even more, which should bode well for us tanking anything....I consider myself a pretty decent Paladin...I am geared pretty decent (I believe), have a good knowledge of our skills, and understand the game fairly well.....The fact of the matter is though, that there is no real need for a Paladin MT in a raid setting at the moment. Let's face facts, we are a Tank, not a healer....not dps, not a buff class. While we may be able to do those things, we are not specialized in them.... If we are supposed to be a Tank, then we need the tools to be a tank. I am fine with not getting the same Physical Mitigation buffs as a Warrior, BUT if our role is supposed to be that of an Arcane Tank, then something needs to be done to distinguish us in that regards. Give us a temporary +300 Resist Buff....let us absorb x amount of casting mobs incoming attacks....something!!What I'm tired of hearing is Paladins wanting to tank EVERYTHING. Well, I'm sorry, but we're not meant to tank EVERYTHING. We are designed to better withstand certain spells and tank in certain circumstances (I'm not nearly high enough level to pretend I know what those are). But I'm tired of other Pallies whining because they don't have mitigation or hps like a Guard. Well... you want hps and mit like a guard, play a guard. You want to be something special, more than just a meat sheild, then continue to play your Pally.Get to L60 start raiding T6 instances, and then tell me which epics we are better suited to tank then a Guardian. Some people might think The Black Queen because of Magic Resists....fine and dandy til she hits you with her Piercing attack 2 rounds in a row. I am fine with the HP position because with potions we can get right around them, but mitigation is king still.I consider myself a pretty good tank, I get complimented alot when I am in groups. But I will be the first one to admit that I am no expert. I played a pally for 70 levels in EQ1 and I knew my role then and I am confident I played it well. I am only 47 but leveling fast to join my guild in raids. Raiding is what I want to do. But, I have learned in my many years of MMOing, that no matter what, there will always be people who think their class needs to be improved, they want to be the best tank, best heals, best dps out there. Well, you can't be the best at everything. If you choose to play a hybrid, you have to understand your limitations. If you choose to play a hybrid WELL, you can and will work around those limitations to accomplish your goals.See my above comments, since I have to get back to work and don't have time to respond to this part Now I'm getting off my soap box. Summary:I signed up to be a tank, and while I understand that we can't be a copy of a Warrior tank...we still need some type of advantage over a Warrior in tanking. As I stated above, there are ways to do that, without giving us the same Physical Mitigation (by giving us the same types of skills but arcane based).When you get to L60 and start raiding, you will fast find out that unless you consider tanking yard trash to be fullfilling, that I was indeed correct -- and dont' get my started on aggro control, because I am hoping with LU20 fixing Sigil that we can at least get some help with that.^^ re-reading this it seems I might have came off pretty harsh....if I did sound that way I am sorry.. I didn't mean for it to come out that way (as most people here can attest, I am a pretty nice guy) __________________ Meridian - L70 Brigand (Vendetta)