I understand that we are a last choice for a raid MT and all the stuff about how we suck... but getting past that, who would you choose for your group if you HAD to MT for a raid and why?I also understand that some only have 1/2 the class choices, who would YOU choose for your MT group and why?I'm searching for ideas and while I see a few suggestions on these forums, just wanted to spark some thought (that I'm sure has been sparked before).  Would you bring a brawler for the extra avoidance and hate?  What about a Dirge for Stoneskin?  1-Paladin2-<div></div>3-4-5-6-

<div><blockquote><hr>Rarlin wrote:I understand that we are a last choice for a raid MT and all the stuff about how we suck... but getting past that, who would you choose for your group if you HAD to MT for a raid and why?I also understand that some only have 1/2 the class choices, who would YOU choose for your MT group and why?I'm searching for ideas and while I see a few suggestions on these forums, just wanted to spark some thought (that I'm sure has been sparked before).  Would you bring a brawler for the extra avoidance and hate?  What about a Dirge for Stoneskin?  1-Paladin2-<div></div>3-4-5-6-<hr></blockquote>It depends on what you are tanking and what gear you have.  Let's assume its Labs and you hit the mitigation max in your group without a crusader to help:1 - Paladin2 - Warlock (Amends) or (my favorite) > 1000dps berserker that is also group taunting.  Bruiser/monk if neither is an option3 - Defiler4 - Templar5 - Dirge6 - CoercerLabs, and your mitigation is not capped for lvl 741 - Paladin2 - Crusader (Amends target), or I guess Conjuror if that is not an option3 - Defiler4 - Templar 5 - Dirge6 - CoercerAlternative1 - Paladin2 - Defiler3 - Templar4 - Dirge5 - Coercer6 - Warden</div>

I've MT'd lots of raids and with alot of different groups.  The main issue is how to get the most use out of amends while not gimping your group. With a pally MT, dirge and coercer both are not as good of an option because neither will give you great amends hate.  I would opt for one of the two, but not both.  I'd rather use amends fully than have double hate increase. For healing, Temp, Defiler, Warden all the way. That leaves the last slot.   You want someone who will give you mucho hate and also add to the group/ your survivability.  I've MT'd with Amends on the following classes and here are the pros/cons: Guardian- this kicks [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], you get use of their group buffs and they can taunt like mad, downside is some of their hate comes from being hit, and since they aren't the MT.... Zerker- you will never lose aggro and they have decent grp buffs, temp mit, etc...a good choice Shadowknight- a great choice if they are a bad [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SK, they give you 425 mit.  They will keep you in hate on a single mob, but you will have problems on pack encounters.  But this has got to be an overgeared, overzealous SK to even work Monk- only fighter class who can actually put their block on you to good use, great hate as well Assasin- prolly the best over all choice, they give you much hate plus poison proc Swash- good aoe hate, but less single target, and no poison proc Conjuror- overall good, one of the top choices, nice hate generation and Geotic Seal for group mit, plus melee proc. Warlock- great hate and allows them to all out, but they give you little in return, noxious grp buff and melee proc Another Paladin- no I've not done this and neither should you, but if it happens I'd like to hear the story Haven't used other classes that I can remember. All in all the last slot is best filled with an Assasin or Conj IMO. <div></div>

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caetrel wrote:<BR>I've MT'd lots of raids and with alot of different groups.  The main issue is how to get the most use out of amends while not gimping your group.<BR><BR>With a pally MT, dirge and coercer both are not as good of an option because neither will give you great amends hate.  I would opt for one of the two, but not both.  I'd rather use amends fully than have double hate increase.<BR><BR>For healing, Temp, Defiler, Warden all the way.<BR><BR><BR>Shadowknight- a great choice if they are a bad [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] SK, they give you 425 mit.  They will keep you in hate on a single mob, but you will have problems on pack encounters.  But this has got to be an overgeared, overzealous SK to even work <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>sk's dps comes from aoe'ing.  every aoe is out of encounter.<BR>

<div></div>PaladinTemplarDefilerDirgeCoercerWarden / Conjuror / Swashbuckler / Assassin<div></div><p>Message Edited by MeridianR on <span class=date_text>08-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:01 PM</span>

<div><blockquote><hr>Caetrel wrote: Another Paladin- no I've not done this and neither should you, but if it happens I'd like to hear the story <div></div><hr></blockquote>I actually HAVE done this... and it wasn't pretty.  One of the only ways I could maintain aggro was having this guy Resuce!  Wasn't a bad Pally either, just not a good setup...</div>

And btw,Thanks for all the replies/ideas!<div></div>

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MeridianR wrote:<BR> Paladin<BR>Templar<BR>Defiler<BR>Dirge<BR>Coercer< BR>Warden / Conjuror / Swashbuckler / Assassin<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This is kinda hard to beat. Would be my choice of a MT group too. For the last slot, the choices varies depending if you need more healing, more MIT or more hate.

We primarily use paladin (MT), templar, guardian, dirge, shaman, assassin.  Amends is on the assassin.  We swap a warlock for the assassin for Lyceum.  If our defiler shows up, he goes in there for buffs, but we are quite  happy with mystics, too.  When the dirge and guardian are late, we substitute paladin and coercer-bot.  Rarely, we are forced to use scout agro transfer buffs instead of direct hate buffs.  We usually do not take advantage of our bruiser because he can't make it to our regular start time, but he often ends up supporting the offtank.

<DIV>Just a thought for a balanced MT group on a raid like Tarinax</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Paladin</DIV> <DIV>-Coercer (power regen)</DIV> <DIV>-Druid (heals over time)</DIV> <DIV>-Templar (big heals/reactives)</DIV> <DIV>-Brawler (amends target)</DIV> <DIV>-Bard (attack speed ect)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

<hr size="2" width="100%">sk's dps comes from aoe'ing.  every aoe is out of encounter. <hr size="2" width="100%">I think we all know that.  You still can't rely on them for aoe aggro.  They generate more hate from their single taunt over time, shield bash, and single target damage spells/ CAs.  SKs are notoriously underpowered for hate generation despite their decent dps. If you are going to try and make it look like someone doesn't know what they're talking about, you might try and know what you are talking about first. <div></div>

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caetrel wrote:<BR> <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> sk's dps comes from aoe'ing.  every aoe is out of encounter. <HR width="100%" SIZE=2> I think we all know that.  You still can't rely on them for aoe aggro.  They generate more hate from their single taunt over time, shield bash, and single target damage spells/ CAs.  SKs are notoriously underpowered for hate generation despite their decent dps.<BR><BR>If you are going to try and make it look like someone doesn't know what they're talking about, you might try and know what you are talking about first.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I've been on several raids and the SK i raid with has no issues holding aoe agro on a 3 mob fusion hit with just a dirge in his group for hate gain, and only amends on me (wizard) for hate reduction.</P> <P>I think if your going to lecture me on something that you believe to be not true, you should understand that in my situation it <EM>is </EM>true</P><p>Message Edited by IllusiveThoughts on <span class=date_text>08-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:08 PM</span>

Druz,    I didn't mean to come on so strong.  You have the worst sig line evar lol.  I thought it was part of your post, and reacted.    So I apolgize for the lecture, now that I see what your post really was it was uncalled for.     As to the SK issue, having tanked with amends on an SK it really doesn't seem to offer the best in aoe hate, despite their aoe output and mine.  Spell resists on 74ish epics is part of that prolly.   Not to rag on SKs at all, there are some good ones out there who can MT like a champ.  In the case of propping up a pally's hate,  I just don't see them as the best choice in multi mob encounters.  <div></div>

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caetrel wrote:<BR>Druz,<BR>   I didn't mean to come on so strong.  You have the worst sig line evar lol.  I thought it was part of your post, and reacted.    So I apolgize for the lecture, now that I see what your post really was it was uncalled for.  <BR><BR>   As to the SK issue, having tanked with amends on an SK it really doesn't seem to offer the best in aoe hate, despite their aoe output and mine.  Spell resists on 74ish epics is part of that prolly.   Not to rag on SKs at all, there are some good ones out there who can MT like a champ.  In the case of propping up a pally's hate,  I just don't see them as the best choice in multi mob encounters.  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I think you mean me, the guy in my sig is probably long gone from these forums but I found it humerous enough to immortalize his words in my signature.</P> <P>I would agree an SK would not be the best choice for amends from a paly MT and an aoe encounter.  If you put it into that context.</P> <P> </P>

Paladin Templar Defiler Coercer Dirge Bruiser/Monk This gives you max hp from templar and defiler (warden won't do jack for you as far as hp, mitigation, or pretty much anything except for heat/cold resist if you need it) Double power regen from dirge and coercer (yes, they stack together so you will NEVER run out of power to taunt, self ward/heal, and your healers will never run out of power) In addition to double power regen, they give you double aggro buffs, which also stack Bruiser/Monk - This is your amends target. brawler puts thier avoidance buff on you, giving you massive amounts of avoidance boost. This is in addition to the buffs you're getting from your dirge to help your parry, etc. If you have a paladin MT'ing, that is the perfect MT group as I see it. As a matter of fact, that is our default MT group set up. Usually we just have a guardian in the tank spot with moderate on the brawler, but the same benefits apply. Your monk can help with thier avoidance buff on the MT, you get double the power regen and hate from the coercer and dirge, thus ensuring that every taunt counts, and you get pretty much the max hp you can from defiler and templar. Not to mention double stoneskin from templar and dirge. Thundaarr Unrest <Nightcap> <div></div>

Templar( you get sta capped easily)elementalist( mitigation+shards+buffs+amends)defilerdirge(parryi ng buff as u can't max it with all items you have+reg and HO's)paladinwarden/monk (whether for agility or the monk for amends)<div></div>

...a Guardian ^_^

I like - PaladinDirgeCoercerTemplarDefilerWarden<div></div>

I usePaladinDirgeCoercerTemplarDefilerPaladin/Warlock/WizardAnd no I dont put amends on the Paladin.  That is [Removed for Content].<div></div>

<div><blockquote><hr>FlintAH wrote:I usePaladinDirgeCoercerTemplarDefilerPaladin/Warlock/WizardAnd no I dont put amends on the Paladin.  That is [Removed for Content].<div></div><hr></blockquote>If you're not putting amends on the 6th slot in that group you're slacking.  The last slot will generate far more hate for you than the others.</div>

I dont put amends on the paladin.  If the wizard or warlock are there it is solely for the purpose of amends.  W/ a dirge and coercer amends is not necessary for me to maintain aggro.  If I have a 2nd paladin amends goes on the templar for multimob encounters and on defiler for single target encounters.<div></div>

<div></div>Dirge Defiler and Templar are pretty much the main things I care about. If your tank group lacks those, already it isnt optimal. I agree with Phov on his group its a good basic setup for any tank. For the last 2 slots you can pick coercer/swashy/assassin/an offtank/conjuror etc etc according to what you need. If you are lucky to have a troub group or 2 keeping dps in line should just need 2 giving you hate of some kind.  I prefer a scout usually. Assassin's can do some insane single target dps and usually thats what matters most. If you are killing a named anyway <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Run parses and figure out who sucks and who doesnt, whoever is at the top on a consistent basis there's your amends target lol. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Aamadex on <span class=date_text>08-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:32 PM</span>

<DIV>I use:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladin (me)</DIV> <DIV>Templar</DIV> <DIV>Defiler</DIV> <DIV>Warden</DIV> <DIV>Dirge</DIV> <DIV>Bruiser</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since in my guild we dont have a coercer, and the bruiser is one of the biggest agro makers in my guild. If there is no Dirge on I asked to be changed with a swash assasin for the agro buff or a conjuror for the mit buffs</DIV>

<div><blockquote><hr>FlintAH wrote:I dont put amends on the paladin.  If the wizard or warlock are there it is solely for the purpose of amends.  W/ a dirge and coercer amends is not necessary for me to maintain aggro.  If I have a 2nd paladin amends goes on the templar for multimob encounters and on defiler for single target encounters.<div></div><hr></blockquote>So you choose not to get extra hate because a "dirge and coercer is good enough"?  Why on earth would you choose to not use your best taunt in the best way possible?  If you are MT for your raid you need to get every single point of hate possible.  If you go 50 times over the next person in the hate list it still isn't enough.I guess your dps just sucks.  In my raids I see dps - especially casters - holding back without going to the extreme in tanking.  A dirge and coercer is NOT enough for a paladin if you aren't using master amends on someone making the parse list, or doing ok dps with taunts.  We do not have the dps that warriors with buckler line do, and we need to deal with it by using amends properly.</div>

<div><blockquote><hr>khufure wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>FlintAH wrote:I dont put amends on the paladin.  If the wizard or warlock are there it is solely for the purpose of amends.  W/ a dirge and coercer amends is not necessary for me to maintain aggro.  If I have a 2nd paladin amends goes on the templar for multimob encounters and on defiler for single target encounters.<div></div><hr></blockquote>So you choose not to get extra hate because a "dirge and coercer is good enough"?  Why on earth would you choose to not use your best taunt in the best way possible?  If you are MT for your raid you need to get every single point of hate possible.  If you go 50 times over the next person in the hate list it still isn't enough.I guess your dps just sucks.  In my raids I see dps - especially casters - holding back without going to the extreme in tanking.  A dirge and coercer is NOT enough for a paladin if you aren't using master amends on someone making the parse list, or doing ok dps with taunts.  We do not have the dps that warriors with buckler line do, and we need to deal with it by using amends properly.</div><hr></blockquote>1.1x the hate of the person at the top of the list is more than enough.  And anyone at the top of the parse list is not going to be in the MT group.  There is no need for anyone to hold back if you are doing your job right.  A paladin is not going to be at the top of the parse or anywhere near it, if the dps classes are doing their job.  The pally will be down there w/ the healers on the parse.</div>

<div></div>the optimal group setup, for me anyways, would be Paladincleric      (templar preferred)Shaman (defiler preferred)coercer  for hate/dps/regendirge       for +def/parry stoneskinwarlock  (master 1 amends ftw!)no dirge, coercer, decent high dps warlock?paladintemplardefilerassassin/swash (hate transfer)wiz/bruiser druid/conj/crusader (extra mit or group buffs/healage)edit: put warlock in my no warlock group lol. I like amends on the warlock most of the time.<div></div><p>Message Edited by amadeusex on <span class=date_text>08-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:41 PM</span>

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>1-Paladin <- cuz u said thats a givin<BR>2-Coercer             4 hate and regen<BR>3-Dirge                 4 mor hate and regen<BR>4-Shadowknight-  with amends on them, and sk spells on the pally gift of armor and Devious Evasion.<BR>5-Warden/fury  heals over times and buffs<BR>6-Templar/ conj<BR></P> <P><BR>the last two  depends.. .<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><p>Message Edited by TheBuzZ on <span class=date_text>08-29-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:21 PM</span>

<div><blockquote><hr>FlintAH wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>khufure wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>FlintAH wrote:I dont put amends on the paladin.  If the wizard or warlock are there it is solely for the purpose of amends.  W/ a dirge and coercer amends is not necessary for me to maintain aggro.  If I have a 2nd paladin amends goes on the templar for multimob encounters and on defiler for single target encounters.<div></div><hr></blockquote>So you choose not to get extra hate because a "dirge and coercer is good enough"?  Why on earth would you choose to not use your best taunt in the best way possible?  If you are MT for your raid you need to get every single point of hate possible.  If you go 50 times over the next person in the hate list it still isn't enough.I guess your dps just sucks.  In my raids I see dps - especially casters - holding back without going to the extreme in tanking.  A dirge and coercer is NOT enough for a paladin if you aren't using master amends on someone making the parse list, or doing ok dps with taunts.  We do not have the dps that warriors with buckler line do, and we need to deal with it by using amends properly.</div><hr></blockquote>1.1x the hate of the person at the top of the list is more than enough.  And anyone at the top of the parse list is not going to be in the MT group.  There is no need for anyone to hold back if you are doing your job right.  A paladin is not going to be at the top of the parse or anywhere near it, if the dps classes are doing their job.  The pally will be down there w/ the healers on the parse.</div><hr></blockquote>Whatever 1.1x means.  Did you misread "master amends on someone making the parse list, OR doing ok dps with taunts".  e.g., a crusader, or any of the options that I I replied to about.  I believe it was paladin/wizard/warlock.</div>

<div><blockquote><hr>khufure wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>FlintAH wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>khufure wrote:<div><blockquote><hr>FlintAH wrote:I dont put amends on the paladin.  If the wizard or warlock are there it is solely for the purpose of amends.  W/ a dirge and coercer amends is not necessary for me to maintain aggro.  If I have a 2nd paladin amends goes on the templar for multimob encounters and on defiler for single target encounters.<div></div><hr></blockquote>So you choose not to get extra hate because a "dirge and coercer is good enough"?  Why on earth would you choose to not use your best taunt in the best way possible?  If you are MT for your raid you need to get every single point of hate possible.  If you go 50 times over the next person in the hate list it still isn't enough.I guess your dps just sucks.  In my raids I see dps - especially casters - holding back without going to the extreme in tanking.  A dirge and coercer is NOT enough for a paladin if you aren't using master amends on someone making the parse list, or doing ok dps with taunts.  We do not have the dps that warriors with buckler line do, and we need to deal with it by using amends properly.</div><hr></blockquote>1.1x the hate of the person at the top of the list is more than enough.  And anyone at the top of the parse list is not going to be in the MT group.  There is no need for anyone to hold back if you are doing your job right.  A paladin is not going to be at the top of the parse or anywhere near it, if the dps classes are doing their job.  The pally will be down there w/ the healers on the parse.</div><hr></blockquote>Whatever 1.1x means.  Did you misread "master amends on someone making the parse list, OR doing ok dps with taunts".  e.g., a crusader, or any of the options that I I replied to about.  I believe it was paladin/wizard/warlock.</div><hr></blockquote>I musta misread it, I didnt see the OR.  W/ my dps, taunts and dirge, and coercer buffs it would be hard for me to loose aggro if I wanted to on my main target.  Amends on a paladin is a waste if you read my previous post/  If you read you also would know the wizard/warlock would be there for amends.</div>

<div><blockquote><hr>FlintAH wrote:<div>I musta misread it, I didnt see the OR.  W/ my dps, taunts and dirge, and coercer buffs it would be hard for me to loose aggro if I wanted to on my main target.  Amends on a paladin is a waste if you read my previous post/  If you read you also would know the wizard/warlock would be there for amends.</div><hr></blockquote>I didn't misread anything.  Anyone in that 6th slot you listed is better than your implication of not using amends (!) or putting it on a subpar amends class, e.g. dirge or defiler.</div>