<DIV>As of last night, I dinged 57 and got Taunting Defense, but I'm going to center this post around Offending Defense since I haven't had a chance to really test out the upgrade.  Though by reading it, it looks to function the same.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lately, I've been grouping with a Bruiser RL friend of mine.  He is 54 and I'm 57.  We both have full T6 rare crafted gear.  I am the MT in our group.  Now, when he puts Quarrel on, he tends to pull agro on any fight over 10 - 20 seconds.  Even with my Offending Defense line on.  Both his and mine are at the selected master 2 level.  So, I started analyzing the two skills and their usefulness.  The Quarrel line has it hands down.  First, our line procs when hit 20% of the time.  Theirs procs when they hit 25% of the time.  Taking into concideration that he and I have the same speed DW weapons, he should be landing hits about as often as I am over the duration of a fight.  I was watching last night that I hit the mobs approx 6 - 8 times to each hit they land.  If the Bruiser is doing the same, then he would have 6 - 8 chances to proc to every 1 chance of mine.  Does this seem balanced?  I don't see SoE changing our skill, but it would be nice to see it have a higher chance to proc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As of right now, he takes Quarrel off whenever he's not the tank in a group, but he grits his teeth and grumbles about not being able to use all his tools.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thoughts?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bjoern</DIV>

<P>Don't think they are intended to be balenced, they are 2 totally differant types of skill for 2 totally differant classes.   Quarrel, although it adds an extra attack, is a taunt and he should not be using it when not tanking.  </P> <P>Berserkers might have the worse taunts of all the fighters.  Insolent gibe is nice, but a long timer.  </P> <P>Compare Taunting defense to a Guardian's Infaming defense.  Both place the heavy snare and are a reactive taunt.  Guardians is 50% chance, berserker 20% chance.  The berserker's is also a counterattack though.  I think the berserkers could be bumped up slightly to a 25% chance and or maybe slightly more damage (the provoking counterattack is rather weak).  Guardians get alot more taunt type combat arts then berserkers do, but berserkers do alot more damage.  Berskers need to do that damage to hold agro.  </P> <P>Other classes are gonna have better taunts then us , but we have good damage and great tanking ability, can't have it all.  </P>

<DIV>Everything is situational.<BR>Coming from a Bruiser, for tanking, Berserkers is better.<BR>Want a reason why?<BR><BR>Bruisers is when you hit, so sure, when we popping "Crushing Fury (9hits in one skill each has a chance to proc weapons, skills, etc)" 25% chance each hit 9x taunt increase basically from Quarrel.  Savage Blows 4 hits in one in aoe, each has a chance to proc, + DW low delay weps proc'n....  Sure, nice aggro. But *ONLY* in offensive stance.  Why? B/c in defensive stance our ability to hit the mob is crap, espescially raiding (orange con + defensive stance = hit 1 in 15swings).  Crushing Fury, if one hits, the next has a chance to hit, if that one misses...then the skill stops.<BR><BR>I'd rather have a counter-attack/taunt then having a attack/taunt b/c of the way defensive stances works, when you are tanking yours works much better.<BR><BR>Goodluck, hopefully that changes your opinion on things, and...as for the bruiser wanting to keep up quarrel... let him?  You are both tanks, as long as *one* of you two have it and not the healer/dps/dps/dps etc.  If the bruiser takes it, he can feign, he can self heal etc.</DIV>

yeah from what i gather this bruiser spell you're talking about is actually one of their stances.  taunting defense is not really a true stance it's more of just an extra buff that we get.  it's not meant to gaurantee you aggro.  obviously if another tank is using a hate generating spell then they are likely going to get aggro.  espeiclaly considering that bruisers do a lot more dps than we do on top of it so it's no wonder.  so if the bruiser really doesn't want to get aggro then he needs to just forgo using that stance when grouped with another tank that's trying to keep aggro.  otherwise he just doesn't care and maybe it doesn't really matter for what you guys are doing.  now if it's a tough named mob that hits really hard then that's a different story and he would be dumb to use it, espcially if you got all the extra single-target buffs from the others in your group since you were desigated as the MT and not him. <div></div>

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Colossaltitan wrote:<BR> <DIV>Everything is situational.<BR>Coming from a Bruiser, for tanking, Berserkers is better.<BR>Want a reason why?<BR><BR>Bruisers is when you hit, so sure, when we popping "Crushing Fury (9hits in one skill each has a chance to proc weapons, skills, etc)" 25% chance each hit 9x taunt increase basically from Quarrel.  Savage Blows 4 hits in one in aoe, each has a chance to proc, + DW low delay weps proc'n....  Sure, nice aggro. But *ONLY* in offensive stance.  Why? B/c in defensive stance our ability to hit the mob is crap, espescially raiding (orange con + defensive stance = hit 1 in 15swings).  Crushing Fury, if one hits, the next has a chance to hit, if that one misses...then the skill stops.<BR><BR>I'd rather have a counter-attack/taunt then having a attack/taunt b/c of the way defensive stances works, when you are tanking yours works much better.<BR><BR>Goodluck, hopefully that changes your opinion on things, and...as for the bruiser wanting to keep up quarrel... let him?  You are both tanks, as long as *one* of you two have it and not the healer/dps/dps/dps etc.  If the bruiser takes it, he can feign, he can self heal etc.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Bruisers hold agro against single target encounters better then Berserkers, we ( Berserkers ) are Warriors, the definition of a Warrior is to lock down agro on multiple mobs or group encounters and control them, thats how we are designed and thats what we do best.</P> <P>You can test this no problem at all, just get a Bruiser to agro a group of mobs and then use the Berserker as DPS, i bet you that if the Zerker is using his Offensive Stance that he will pull agro of the Bruiser from the mobs that the Bruiser isnt acually enguaged with, i do it alot but Berserkers offensive stance is acually broken atm since LU18, so you more then likely wouldnt do it now. This LU18 change hasnt just effected Berserkers, its effected every class out there that has a stance or a ability to add a proc to them that has a certain percent chance to proc, Bruisers has a Stance that has a chance to proc just like we do.</P> <P>Problem is there removing the arch type system, so there will be no more arch types or sub classes, there will be 24 stand alone classes, question is, are Berserkers still going to be classed as a Warrior type and tank just as well as a Guardian? Or are Brawlers still going to be classed as a Fighter and still contunie on down the road and tank epic x4 mobs?</P> <P>All i can say is the game is about to change again and this change will bring even more changes, so be preapred for a bumpy 2006. Going to be alot of turbulance for all classes.</P>

<DIV>What do you base that information on Taemek?  I have not seen anything from a dev that they are removing the current system of classes.  </DIV><p>Message Edited by Khalad on <span class=date_text>12-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:57 PM</span>

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Khalad wrote:<BR> <DIV>What do you base that information on Taemek?  I have not seen anything from a dev that they are removing the current system of classes.  </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Khalad on <SPAN class=date_text>12-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:57 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>In the <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testdev&message.id=6622&page=1" target=_blank>Producer's</A> letter

<DIV>I believe he is referring to what was said in the Producer's letter concerning the removal of the class system.  You will basically pick your subclass at lvl 1 was what I gathered from the letter.  I didn't read as much into it.  I took this to mean that you would get another tier of subclass spells before you hit level 20.  I don't see them changing the game post 20, but with SOE who knows.</DIV>

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> killerc wrote:<BR> <DIV>I believe he is referring to what was said in the Producer's letter concerning the removal of the class system.  You will basically pick your subclass at lvl 1 was what I gathered from the letter.  I didn't read as much into it.  I took this to mean that you would get another tier of subclass spells before you hit level 20.  I don't see them changing the game post 20, but with SOE who knows.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Taemak is right to be a bit concerned.  For over a year we have heard how classes were (or were supposed to be) balanced at the archtype level.  That the combination of skills/ablities/dps of any sub class should be equal (or atleast really close to equal when compaired to other classes inside that archtype.  This is where the "all fighters can tank" "all healers can heal" ect. statements have always come from.   The removal of the archtype system and making each sub class standalone at level 1 removes this frame of referance we have had up to this point.  </P> <P>  No I dont think that the subclasses (post level 20) will get turned upside down immediately after lu19, but look at future balanceing,  look at the next expansion and raise in the level limit .   The frame of referance we had untill lu19 will be gone and any class changes/balancing/growth from that point on will be based on some new (read: unknown) balancing fourmula.   </P> <DIV>Only time will tell on how this will affect the post level 20 subclass balacing.</DIV>

The usefulness of Offending Defense vs. Quarrel (or a monk's roughhousing) becomes apparent in multiple mob situations.  Offending Defense can add hate to anything damaging you.  It's not an AoE, but can proc against any mob as long as it damages/hits you.   Quarrel isn't much of a help in holding aggro in such a situaton.  It's designed for a single target, which brawlers excel at.  I couldn't even guess if the added counter attack with the reduced proc rate and lowered threat increase is supposed to compare to Inflaming Defense.  If so, then there could be quite a bit of hate associated with the counter attack.  Inflaming Defense can also be completely resisted quite easily (just like a taunt), where a zerker's has that second chance for the counter attack to stick.  Maybe the resist rate was considered when determining the proc rates.  Regardless, I think Inflaming Defense fits the guardian better.  It seems to be designed for a guardian.  It works with guardian sphere.  The guardian intercepts any damage and it can proc.  Offending Defense is just kinda slapped into place for berserkers.  We do not have any intercept skills that would make it proc more or anything of the sort.  I use it, and I think it has it's purpose, but I wouldn't mind it being a little more potent as Khalad mentioned. <div></div>

Put a Bruiser in defensive stance up against a level 65 mob.  See how many times they hit even w/ Dirge,Warden,Guard offensive bonus buffs, one outta 20?  Quarrel barely procs when it matters.

<span><blockquote><hr>Colossaltitan wrote:Put a Bruiser in defensive stance up against a level 65 mob.  See how many times they hit even w/ Dirge,Warden,Guard offensive bonus buffs, one outta 20?  Quarrel barely procs when it matters. <div></div><hr></blockquote> ... which is another plus for Offending Defense.   Those level 65+ mobs seem to have no problem hitting berserkers no matter what stance they're using.  <span>:smileywink:</span></span><div></div>

<DIV>Thanks for the link to the producers letter.  But from what I read, It will have 0 effect on players level 20+.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What this seems to be aimed at is getting people just trying the game more interested then before.  Being just a fighter, mage, scout or priest can be boring, they want to hook more people in early as possible before they give up on the game.  </DIV><p>Message Edited by Khalad on <span class=date_text>12-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:26 PM</span>

<div></div><p>I agree with Khalad that it seems rather doomsday-ish and presumptuous to assume that because they have decided to change the way characters progress from level 1 to level 20, that they are throwing out the entire arch-type system.  I simply don't see any indication of that in the producer's letter.</p><p>I am wondering if the OP is in offensive stance himself when grouping with the bruiser.  If so then I am kind of suprised that he is able to get aggro, but I would still say to your bruiser friend... "welcome to the warlock/wiz club".  It is pretty widely accepted that aggro management is a group effort, and not every class gets to go full bore all the time with no consequences.</p><p>If however you are not in offensive stance, then you may want to consider it.  Rarely use defensive stance myself... I find that it is rarely neccessary, and offensive stance (obviously) does more dmg.  More importantly it usually enables the zerker to completely lock down aggro.</p>

Archtypes will still be a central premise of balancing content, there just won't be the transitional classes below 20. It will make things more interesting from the very beginning, as now the choices expand from 4 to 24.As far as the OP's post, I'm afraid your friend will just need to turn Quarrel off. It's intent is to draw aggro, and by your own account it's doing it's job.<div></div>