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Rasttan

07-04-2012 01:17 PM

10AA for 15 seconds and an extra trigger is absolutely worthless, just take this line out of the Heroic tree and add something else in, since we are taking the most abuse with these changes getting anything is better than the now worthless AA to tenacity.Just make the original Tenacity last 60 seconds with 2 triggers and change the Heroic Tree to anything else, the cumalitive effect of all the changes will effect Brawlers enough allready.Or make the AA on Tenacity have some impact on the Ability because your current change is a bit overkill.There has to be better options than what was decided on that AA, put a little thought into it because obviously the initial changes didnt involve any.

Beko	07-04-2012 01:22 PM

<cite>Rasttan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>10AA for 15 seconds and an extra trigger is absolutely worthless, just take this line out of the Heroic tree and add something else in, since we are taking the most abuse with these changes getting anything is better than the now worthless AA to tenacity.Just make the original Tenacity last 60 seconds with 2 triggers and change the Heroic Tree to anything else, the cumalitive effect of all the changes will effect Brawlers enough allready.Or make the AA on Tenacity have some impact on the Ability because your current change is a bit overkill.There has to be better options than what was decided on that AA, put a little thought into it because obviously the initial changes didnt involve any.</blockquote>10 AA Points for Enhance: Cry of the Warrior to give it threat is worthless, because mobs are immune to it, AND its a force target.10 AA Points for Enhance: Experienced Insight is worthless, because it caps my strikethrough/accuracy, adding 2% More Accuracy/a little more threat is worthless, because its such a short duration ability and the threat is so high anyways its just not worth it.Make Enhance: Experienced Insight instead lower the base reuse by 6 seconds per AA, and Raise its Duration by 1, and then add the end effect to it.Make Enhance: Cry of the Warrior, every time you use it instead post a whining post on the forums, explaining how badly the warrior tree needs revamped, the more aa's you put into it, the more descriptive it is.(These AA's are in the same line yours are.)

BChizzle

07-04-2012 03:49 PM

<cite>Beko@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rasttan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>10AA for 15 seconds and an extra trigger is absolutely worthless, just take this line out of the Heroic tree and add something else in, since we are taking the most abuse with these changes getting anything is better than the now worthless AA to tenacity.Just make the original Tenacity last 60 seconds with 2 triggers and change the Heroic Tree to anything else, the cumalitive effect of all the changes will effect Brawlers enough allready.Or make the AA on Tenacity have some impact on the Ability because your current change is a bit overkill.There has to be better options than what was decided on that AA, put a little thought into it because obviously the initial changes didnt involve any.</blockquote>10 AA Points for Enhance: Cry of the Warrior to give it threat is worthless, because mobs are immune to it, AND its a force target.10 AA Points for Enhance: Experienced Insight is worthless, because it caps my strikethrough/accuracy, adding 2% More Accuracy/a little more threat is worthless, because its such a short duration ability and the threat is so high anyways its just not worth it.Make Enhance: Experienced Insight instead lower the base reuse by 6 seconds per AA, and Raise its Duration by 1, and then add the end effect to it.Make Enhance: Cry of the Warrior, every time you use it instead post a whining post on the forums, explaining how badly the warrior tree needs revamped, the more aa's you put into it, the more descriptive it is.(These AA's are in the same line yours are.)</blockquote>Please keep your non brawler issues in threads suitable for it. Rastann is giving feedback on a brawler skill not a warrior one, make your own thread if you want to be productive.

Kram337

07-04-2012 04:47 PM

I agree with the OP;Remember the 4-5 years of expansions where brawlers were just lousy tanks, never raid tanks, barely even offtanks? Remember that SOE? Well you fixed that in DoV with strike through immunity and now you're taking that away, nerfing our heals by huge percentages AND reducing our only death save?So basically you want us to be the worst tanks again, that's fine that was the plan from the beginning. And I'm fine with that if I could actually out dps the other tanks, but they keep up with us just fine. So where is the trade off?Just be sure you dont take things so dang far in the other direction that we're not even viable raid tanks/offtanks again.

Rasttan

07-04-2012 07:28 PM

<cite>Beko@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rasttan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>10AA for 15 seconds and an extra trigger is absolutely worthless, just take this line out of the Heroic tree and add something else in, since we are taking the most abuse with these changes getting anything is better than the now worthless AA to tenacity.Just make the original Tenacity last 60 seconds with 2 triggers and change the Heroic Tree to anything else, the cumalitive effect of all the changes will effect Brawlers enough allready.Or make the AA on Tenacity have some impact on the Ability because your current change is a bit overkill.There has to be better options than what was decided on that AA, put a little thought into it because obviously the initial changes didnt involve any.</blockquote>10 AA Points for Enhance: Cry of the Warrior to give it threat is worthless, because mobs are immune to it, AND its a force target.10 AA Points for Enhance: Experienced Insight is worthless, because it caps my strikethrough/accuracy, adding 2% More Accuracy/a little more threat is worthless, because its such a short duration ability and the threat is so high anyways its just not worth it.Make Enhance: Experienced Insight instead lower the base reuse by 6 seconds per AA, and Raise its Duration by 1, and then add the end effect to it.Make Enhance: Cry of the Warrior, every time you use it instead post a whining post on the forums, explaining how badly the warrior tree needs revamped, the more aa's you put into it, the more descriptive it is.(These AA's are in the same line yours are.)</blockquote>Go make your own post about your class, you have displayed a very low knowlegde of this game and the mechanics on numerous posts. Instead of derailing my thread with my concerns about my class go somewhere and post your concerns about your class.

Novusod

07-04-2012 07:57 PM

There is also the mitigation nerf that you are forgetting. If you played durring TSO you knew exactly how broken brawlers were. In SF brawlers were given 4 things that really improved the class. Take away these four things and the class goes right back to where it was in TSO. Completely broken.- Strikethrough immunity: It became our class defining skill. Brawlers are avoidance tanks so we avoid the hits we avoid.- Death Save: Before SF brawlers were the only tanks without a death save- Mitigation Increase: Before SF brawlers were as squishy as scouts and often died in a single hit.- Reduced healing: Many of the hardmode mobs in DoV reduce healing received. That 100% heal will only heal 4% or 5% with the debuff. Might as well not even have a heal at all.If you don't think having a class nerfed into the ground will drive people away then you are delusional. It is that way by design. I have been told there are Too many brawlers and these changes are meant to reduce their numbers.

The_Cheeseman

07-04-2012 09:04 PM

Since when do they base balance decisions on population numbers? Who thinks that is a good idea? Nerf a class because a lot of people want to play it, that sounds like an excellent design choice.No, I am pretty sure the changes are intended to address fighter class competitive balance. I can't say that I didn't expect this, since people have been complaining about brawlers actually being good since DoV launched, but I am concerned about how many aspects of the class they're trying to alter simultaneously. They've reduced our physical mitigation by about 1,600, but they've given about an equal amount back as physical damage reduction in our defensive stance, so that's basically a wash (since brawlers always tank in defensive). They removed our Strikethrough immunity, which will lower our overall survivability and increase our risk of spike damage death. They've also reduced the duration of our deathsave by 1/3 and cut the heal from 100% down to 50% HP, which hurts our ability to effectively compensate for spike damage deaths. They changed Mend from a 100% heal to a 50-60% heal (which, honestly, isn't going to make a significant difference, since I generally used it whenever I spiked below 50% anyway).Overall, we're significantly more susceptible to spike damage deaths than we were, and will take somewhat more damage overall against MOBs with significant Strikethrough amounts. As they stand, I don't see most brawlers facing any major changes in performance, the only differences will be with those who are facing high-end raid bosses with significant Strikethrough values and dangerous spike damage abilities. Heroic content and easy raids won't really be any different (unless you relied heavily on Tenacity and/or Mend for your survivability, in which case you probably should make friends with a competent healer). The cumulative effect on those high-end raider monks will be difficult to predict, as history has shown that even a minor increase in spike damage deaths can severely cripple the effectiveness of a main tank. We'll see I suppose.

Rasttan

07-04-2012 11:36 PM

<cite>Novusod wrote:</cite><blockquote>There is also the mitigation nerf that you are forgetting. If you played durring TSO you knew exactly how broken brawlers were. In SF brawlers were given 4 things that really improved the class. Take away these four things and the class goes right back to where it was in TSO. Completely broken.- Strikethrough immunity: It became our class defining skill. Brawlers are avoidance tanks so we avoid the hits we avoid.- Death Save: Before SF brawlers were the only tanks without a death save- Mitigation Increase: Before SF brawlers were as squishy as scouts and often died in a single hit.- Reduced healing: Many of the hardmode mobs in DoV reduce healing received. That 100% heal will only heal 4% or 5% with the debuff. Might as well not even have a heal at all.If you don't think having a class nerfed into the ground will drive people away then you are delusional. It is that way by design. I have been told there are Too many brawlers and these changes are meant to reduce their numbers.</blockquote>Ive probobly end game tanked more mobs than you, everyone before during and after avatars until this expansion when I went casual. I'm not overly concerned about the changes except that there intent is to make us die more often, why then do they also nerf the deathsave which is the 1 thing we will need more now with the other changes.They contradict themselves by there very nature, make us easier to kill and make our deathsave weaker and the AA tied to it worthless. Enough is Enough the other changes are plenty to lower our tanking ability with the deathsave left alone. Really it shouldnt have been changed at all. But if they insist then ditch that AA compleltely and stick some other tanking tool in its place. Another stoneskin ability a block a group buff what ever for those 10AA.

Silzin

07-04-2012 11:50 PM

There are 4 major things here. #1 is the Nerf to Brawlers Tenacity. #2 the Nerf to Strikethrough immunity as stated, #3 the Nerf to the Mitigation, #4 the ongoing debate over the Recklessness Stance. #1, this is the one that I think is the largest travesty against the brawler community. Taking the death save from what is now the shortest duration death save out of all of the tanks and you are reducing it by 1/3rd of its duration. I agree with the OP in just remove the Heroic AA for this AA and make it something different since it will have no point. I would have a better time taking the Reuse starting at termination than this Nerf. #2, without counting Strikethrough immunity both of the other tanks I raid with have as much or more Uncontested Block then I do when raid buffed, and I know they have more Mit then I do as well. Where is this going to leave us as a tanking class? I am specked and adorned for more Mit then either of the other tanks and they still have more Mit than me. the other tanks are a Guard and Pally. I know the guard should... it's a Guard they have Mit coming out of their rear ends... If Monks are supposed to be the 3rd Defensive tank along side with the Guard and Pally then something needs to be looked into about the Mit of the tanks or our Strikethrough immunity needs to stay where it is. #3, I see this as a smaller problem since they are also giving us the 5% DR back to help with the loss Mit. #4, there are several other threads about the Recklessness Stance, but since it also effects the Brawlers .... I am thinking if it just made all threat into Damage and stopped Positionals from giving + positions. this alone would give all tanks a pretty good boost to dps and may be more than the amount in the current stance. A boost to Pot or CB may also be needed, but I think this would be a better start.

Tekadeo

07-05-2012 01:39 AM

<cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are 4 major things here. #1 is the Nerf to Brawlers Tenacity. #2 the Nerf to Strikethrough immunity as stated, #3 the Nerf to the Mitigation, #4 the ongoing debate over the Recklessness Stance. #1, this is the one that I think is the largest travesty against the brawler community. Taking the death save from what is now the shortest duration death save out of all of the tanks and you are reducing it by 1/3rd of its duration. I agree with the OP in just remove the Heroic AA for this AA and make it something different since it will have no point. I would have a better time taking the Reuse starting at termination than this Nerf. #2, without counting Strikethrough immunity both of the other tanks I raid with have as much or more Uncontested Block then I do when raid buffed, and I know they have more Mit then I do as well. Where is this going to leave us as a tanking class? I am specked and adorned for more Mit then either of the other tanks and they still have more Mit than me. the other tanks are a Guard and Pally. I know the guard should... it's a Guard they have Mit coming out of their rear ends... If Monks are supposed to be the 3rd Defensive tank along side with the Guard and Pally then something needs to be looked into about the Mit of the tanks or our Strikethrough immunity needs to stay where it is. #3, I see this as a smaller problem since they are also giving us the 5% DR back to help with the loss Mit. #4, there are several other threads about the Recklessness Stance, but since it also effects the Brawlers .... I am thinking if it just made all threat into Damage and stopped Positionals from giving + positions. this alone would give all tanks a pretty good boost to dps and may be more than the amount in the current stance. A boost to Pot or CB may also be needed, but I think this would be a better start. </blockquote>You guys are overblowing this junk way too much. Monks are still the #1 choice for MT. Bruiser is now tied for second maybe. And brawlers are still probably the best overall DPS of the fighters. I've seen some SKs do crazy parses but they just have more burst (via timewarp + Harm Touch).You lost 30 seconds off your DS's duration...it's still amazing, and the AA is still amazing. You are a joke if you think that third trigger isn't huge, the duration is just a bonus.You knew Strikethrough Immunity was totally overpowered when you got it, so did everyone else. You still have it when you need it. You knew something was changing (tbh i would've voted that all fighters get it in DStance only), so why so srs all of a sudden?The brawler mitigation issue turned into a problem when they were able to get as high mit as a plate, yet still rock way more avoidance. You are -supposed- to have less mit, it's why you are given so many sweet temps to counteract the bigger hits. Plus you have Unrivaled Focus and Meditative Healing to help you survive these bigger hits.

BChizzle

07-05-2012 12:25 PM

<cite>Tekadeo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Silzin@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>There are 4 major things here. #1 is the Nerf to Brawlers Tenacity. #2 the Nerf to Strikethrough immunity as stated, #3 the Nerf to the Mitigation, #4 the ongoing debate over the Recklessness Stance. #1, this is the one that I think is the largest travesty against the brawler community. Taking the death save from what is now the shortest duration death save out of all of the tanks and you are reducing it by 1/3rd of its duration. I agree with the OP in just remove the Heroic AA for this AA and make it something different since it will have no point. I would have a better time taking the Reuse starting at termination than this Nerf. #2, without counting Strikethrough immunity both of the other tanks I raid with have as much or more Uncontested Block then I do when raid buffed, and I know they have more Mit then I do as well. Where is this going to leave us as a tanking class? I am specked and adorned for more Mit then either of the other tanks and they still have more Mit than me. the other tanks are a Guard and Pally. I know the guard should... it's a Guard they have Mit coming out of their rear ends... If Monks are supposed to be the 3rd Defensive tank along side with the Guard and Pally then something needs to be looked into about the Mit of the tanks or our Strikethrough immunity needs to stay where it is. #3, I see this as a smaller problem since they are also giving us the 5% DR back to help with the loss Mit. #4, there are several other threads about the Recklessness Stance, but since it also effects the Brawlers .... I am thinking if it just made all threat into Damage and stopped Positionals from giving + positions. this alone would give all tanks a pretty good boost to dps and may be more than the amount in the current stance. A boost to Pot or CB may also be needed, but I think this would be a better start. </blockquote>You guys are overblowing this junk way too much. Monks are still the #1 choice for MT. Bruiser is now tied for second maybe. And brawlers are still probably the best overall DPS of the fighters. I've seen some SKs do crazy parses but they just have more burst (via timewarp + Harm Touch).You lost 30 seconds off your DS's duration...it's still amazing, and the AA is still amazing. You are a joke if you think that third trigger isn't huge, the duration is just a bonus.You knew Strikethrough Immunity was totally overpowered when you got it, so did everyone else. You still have it when you need it. You knew something was changing (tbh i would've voted that all fighters get it in DStance only), so why so srs all of a sudden?The brawler mitigation issue turned into a problem when they were able to get as high mit as a plate, yet still rock way more avoidance. You are -supposed- to have less mit, it's why you are given so many sweet temps to counteract the bigger hits. Plus you have Unrivaled Focus and Meditative Healing to help you survive these bigger hits.</blockquote>You are insane, guardians have been and still will be the top tanks.Anyways back on topic, yes I agree 10 aa points in a skill resulting in a 15 second increase and a 3rd trigger that probably will never go off is pretty weak.My guess though is SOE's solution will be to bring the duration up to 30 seconds but then decrease the original BT to only last 30 seconds. Careful what you wish for.

Caethre

07-05-2012 01:19 PM

<cite>Tekadeo wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys are overblowing this junk way too much. Monks are still the #1 choice for MT. Bruiser is now tied for second maybe. And brawlers are still probably the best overall DPS of the fighters. I've seen some SKs do crazy parses but they just have more burst (via timewarp + Harm Touch).</blockquote>(( Wrong.You are AGAIN talking about ultra-high-end-HARDMODE raiding situations, affecting 0.1% of the playerbase (yes I *KNOW* that that number is made up, but you do get the point, as I keep making it).For the rest of us, Monks are NOT the MAIN CHOICE for anything.SKs remain the absolute strongest choice for Heroic groups. They also remain the most commonly chosen option for casual raids and pick up raids.You can keep ignoring that, but that is what actually matters to 99% of the playerbase.So keep spouting LIES about monks (or brawlers) being actively sought by the playerbase for small groups, groups, pick up raids, semi-open and alliance raids, and casual guild raidforces, and I will keep pointing out that such statements are still LIES.It may not matter to you. But it matters to the rest of us ))

Yimway

07-05-2012 02:01 PM

<cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tekadeo wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys are overblowing this junk way too much. Monks are still the #1 choice for MT. Bruiser is now tied for second maybe. And brawlers are still probably the best overall DPS of the fighters. I've seen some SKs do crazy parses but they just have more burst (via timewarp + Harm Touch).</blockquote>SKs remain the absolute strongest choice for Heroic groups. They also remain the most commonly chosen option for casual raids and pick up raids.</blockquote>Seems both of you guy's 'facts' are equally disputeable.I know plenty of casual guilds raiding with a monk MT. I know plenty of casual groups that go with a monk MT. I know of no hardcore raid force that uses an SK MT. Maybe there is a guild in the top 100 that uses an SK MT, but I'm not aware of it.Monks remain a viable MT for raiders, and they remain a viable tank for casual heroic groups. In fact there is sufficient room to argue that they still remain the best at both tasks even after these changes. The big difference I see is the amount by which they are better is a smaller margine.

Caethre

07-05-2012 03:37 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tekadeo wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys are overblowing this junk way too much. Monks are still the #1 choice for MT. Bruiser is now tied for second maybe. And brawlers are still probably the best overall DPS of the fighters. I've seen some SKs do crazy parses but they just have more burst (via timewarp + Harm Touch).</blockquote>SKs remain the absolute strongest choice for Heroic groups. They also remain the most commonly chosen option for casual raids and pick up raids.</blockquote>Seems both of you guy's 'facts' are equally disputeable.I know plenty of casual guilds raiding with a monk MT. I know plenty of casual groups that go with a monk MT. I know of no hardcore raid force that uses an SK MT. Maybe there is a guild in the top 100 that uses an SK MT, but I'm not aware of it.Monks remain a viable MT for raiders, and they remain a viable tank for casual heroic groups. In fact there is sufficient room to argue that they still remain the best at both tasks even after these changes. The big difference I see is the amount by which they are better is a smaller margine.</blockquote>(( As is common for these forums, you have not understood.Firstly, I said nothing about extreme HM raiding. I don't care about extreme HM raiding, other than that I consider it stupid to even consider balancing the game for 0.1% of players and in the process breaking it for the rest.Secondly. yes, of course there are SOME casual raids and SOME casual heroic groups using monk (or brawler) tanks. If that was not the case, the monk (or brawler) class would be 100% broken!!! But that is not what Takedeo was claiming. He was claiming Monks remain the #1 choice.What I was saying, however, is the actual truth ... for content 99% of the playerbase are doing, monks are ABSOLUTELY NOT the #1 choice.When I log in tonight, I will not see in channel: HEROIC GROUP for UD forming - Need MONK tank!!!Nor will I see: OPEN UDx4 RAID forming - NEED MONK Tanks Now!!!These are falacies, they never happen, Atan, and you darn well know it. If monks were overpowered in these settings, these things WOULD be happening, but they do not happen.The actual reality is, that no tank is massively overpowered right now in 99% of settings compared to any of the others. However, the most commonly seen MT, when there is an option, remains the SK, not either of the brawler classes.Those claiming that brawlers are overpowered are doing one thing and one thing alone: LIEING.And I will stress, I am not referring to the 1% doing HM raiding, because if there is a balance issue with brawlers in that setting, then SOE should sort it out in that setting and not wreck the class balance for everyone else ))

Yimway

07-05-2012 04:21 PM

<cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I log in tonight, I will not see in channel: HEROIC GROUP for UD forming - Need MONK tank!!!Nor will I see: OPEN UDx4 RAID forming - NEED MONK Tanks Now!!!</blockquote>You wont see it as these zones and content don't push the tank classes. I do however know casual players that will avoid accepting an SK to tank either of those scenarios, but your right, they won't directly advertise for a Monk cause they can get the job done with any tank for heroic zones, and that raid will almost certainly have 8 fighters asking to get in, and they wont all be an SK.It doesn't change the fact that the monk class has the most potential to excell at that content. In that they can survive doing those zones with worse healers than really any other fighter class.The reality is 80% of the players are so bad they don't know how to play the class in such a way that it is obvious how much easier it is to tank content with it over other fighters. Ignorance is not a valid argument against class balance.

Laenai

07-05-2012 04:28 PM

Its because everyone and their freaking brother has an SK. Even -I- have an SK and I hate SKs.

Caethre

07-05-2012 05:23 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I log in tonight, I will not see in channel: HEROIC GROUP for UD forming - Need MONK tank!!!Nor will I see: OPEN UDx4 RAID forming - NEED MONK Tanks Now!!!</blockquote>It doesn't change the fact that the monk class has the most potential to excell at that content. In that they can survive doing those zones with worse healers than really any other fighter class.</blockquote>(( The problem with this reply is that your statement I have quoted in red above is not true. It is merely imagined, and totally untrue in fact.It is my opinion that you and certain other individuals on this forum, are directly and repeatedly telling mistruths in making these kinds of claims, with absolutely zero evidence to back them up with, based on unjustified class jealousy.My own experience remains, over a period of the last few years, that given a choice, most groups and casual raids will still take a plate tank over a brawler, especially for MT on a casual or alliance raid, unless they already know the brawler player well. And they have good reason too, at least in the case of the SK or Guardian, because those classes will do at least a good a job as any equivalent brawler, if not better. And when it comes to mobs requiring control of lots of adds, nothing comes close to the SK or Beserker for that kind of OT control - no equivalent monk can get close to as good a job done, hell I am a monk player and I'd not take a monk for that!There is no excuse for the propagation of that kind of thing by FURTHER NERFS to the brawler classes, all because the 1% doing HM raiding have a balance issue in the other direction in the content they are facing, and because a few plate tank players are making unjustifiable statements on the forums about brawlers being 'overpowered' ))

Tekadeo

07-05-2012 05:33 PM

<cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tekadeo wrote:</cite><blockquote>You guys are overblowing this junk way too much. Monks are still the #1 choice for MT. Bruiser is now tied for second maybe. And brawlers are still probably the best overall DPS of the fighters. I've seen some SKs do crazy parses but they just have more burst (via timewarp + Harm Touch).</blockquote>SKs remain the absolute strongest choice for Heroic groups. They also remain the most commonly chosen option for casual raids and pick up raids.</blockquote>Seems both of you guy's 'facts' are equally disputeable.I know plenty of casual guilds raiding with a monk MT. I know plenty of casual groups that go with a monk MT. I know of no hardcore raid force that uses an SK MT. Maybe there is a guild in the top 100 that uses an SK MT, but I'm not aware of it.Monks remain a viable MT for raiders, and they remain a viable tank for casual heroic groups. In fact there is sufficient room to argue that they still remain the best at both tasks even after these changes. The big difference I see is the amount by which they are better is a smaller margine.</blockquote>(( As is common for these forums, you have not understood.Firstly, I said nothing about extreme HM raiding. I don't care about extreme HM raiding, other than that I consider it stupid to even consider balancing the game for 0.1% of players and in the process breaking it for the rest.Secondly. yes, of course there are SOME casual raids and SOME casual heroic groups using monk (or brawler) tanks. If that was not the case, the monk (or brawler) class would be 100% broken!!! But that is not what Takedeo was claiming. He was claiming Monks remain the #1 choice.What I was saying, however, is the actual truth ... for content 99% of the playerbase are doing, monks are ABSOLUTELY NOT the #1 choice.When I log in tonight, I will not see in channel: HEROIC GROUP for UD forming - Need MONK tank!!!Nor will I see: OPEN UDx4 RAID forming - NEED MONK Tanks Now!!!These are falacies, they never happen, Atan, and you darn well know it. If monks were overpowered in these settings, these things WOULD be happening, but they do not happen.The actual reality is, that no tank is massively overpowered right now in 99% of settings compared to any of the others. However, the most commonly seen MT, when there is an option, remains the SK, not either of the brawler classes.Those claiming that brawlers are overpowered are doing one thing and one thing alone: LIEING.And I will stress, I am not referring to the 1% doing HM raiding, because if there is a balance issue with brawlers in that setting, then SOE should sort it out in that setting and not wreck the class balance for everyone else ))</blockquote>I have never once seen anyone advertising for any one tank class for a heroic group. That is ridiculous, any tank who is not undergeared and/or skilled enough can dominate any heroic zone in this game. The reason we discuss raiding (and no not high-end HM raiding, stop trolling) is because for your precious heroic grouping, any tank gets the job done fine. IE no one cares. For raiding puropses though, things get stickier, that is why we cuss and discuss each tanks powers (or lack thereof) so much. Sorry you cant grasp this notion.For the last sentence I highlighted in red, I will offer you this tidbit of info: If you are only doing heroic grouping, then these changes do not really affect you. Why? Any average healer can solo heal these heroic zones, and if they can't---get two. It's allowed. Therefore, you shouldn't be using your death save that often. And if you are? IT'S STILL AMAZING. No tank in the game wouldn't trade their death save for yours, even in the "nerfed" format. I used quotations because I would rather refer to it as "less overpowered." You all do realize this gives you four lives, right?Also I'm about 90% certain heroic mobs don't use strikethrough. So the nerf to your defensive stance is meaningless if you aren't raiding. Correct me with some proof if you have any.

Caethre

07-05-2012 05:35 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I log in tonight, I will not see in channel: HEROIC GROUP for UD forming - Need MONK tank!!!Nor will I see: OPEN UDx4 RAID forming - NEED MONK Tanks Now!!!</blockquote>You wont see it as these zones and content don't push the tank classes. </blockquote>((I'll address this separately. Again, your statement is totally wrong here.They do not push HM-geared tanks operating in organized raidforces, no, obviously not.But they DO push and challenge tanks geared at the level they are intended to challenge, operating in casual and pickup raidforces.Why? Because they were pickup raids of course. How good are the healers on pickup raids? How good is the raid composition? (example: some of them have ZERO bards on them). How good were the DPS? Think it through - to anyone who has joined a lot of pickup raids over the years, they will know, such raids can be VERY challenging indeed! It is a total fallacy put about by hardcore raiders that casual raiding is easy - it isn't, because the quality of the raidforces can be very (to be polite) variable!I have (with my monk) been the MT for a couple of casual semi-pickup raids in UDx4. [Before you ask, there were no plate tanks within 10k of my hitpoints on those raids, only other brawlers, hence getting a shot at doing the job!]I am not completely useless, but I definitely found them challenging, because of all the reasons I noted above. Doable, yes, but far from trivial.So being a stronger tank class does matter. Which is turn is why, if there is an SK along, or perhaps a Guardian, they almost always get the MT role. Even if they are no stronger than the other fighters. This is my experience (even when not playing my monk, when playing a healer or DPS class).The reality is very very far from "monk are the automatic #1 choice for MT" statement made by certain specific plate tank players who are basically just crying for nerfs over petty class jealousy.))

Yimway

07-05-2012 05:41 PM

<cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I log in tonight, I will not see in channel: HEROIC GROUP for UD forming - Need MONK tank!!!Nor will I see: OPEN UDx4 RAID forming - NEED MONK Tanks Now!!!</blockquote>It doesn't change the fact that the monk class has the most potential to excell at that content. In that they can survive doing those zones with worse healers than really any other fighter class.</blockquote>(( The problem with this reply is that your statement I have quoted in red above is not true. It is merely imagined, and totally untrue in fact.It is my opinion that you and certain other individuals on this forum, are directly and repeatedly telling mistruths in making these kinds of claims, with absolutely zero evidence to back them up with, based on unjustified class jealousy. ))</blockquote>I'm not going to dig up numeric evidence for you in this thread, its been proven enough other times.I play both a monk and guard, I'm pretty familiar with eaches plus and minus and what they are capable of, but more poignantly I heal both regularly playing my defiler, inquisitor, or warden. Its very clear playing these healers which tanks are easier to keep up without even needing to look at a parse, but when you then dig into similarly geared tanks and view their avoidance rate and their actual damage taken its abundantly clear which is taking less damage and has all the tools needed to win.The difference in healing a plate tank and a monk on any encounter with strikethru attached to it is simply night and day, even after the on avoidance damage was added (since its still less than actually getting hit),The problem is, your assertions are no more based in fact, the difference between our assertions is the amount of people that agree with mine vs yours <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />You simply can find plenty of casual players that will tell you Monks are better at doing zones / content, particularly if you ask healers. Now certainly brawlers who have no idea how to properly itemize, reforge, adorn, spec, and when to use what stance and short terms, yeah they can be just as squishy as any other tank. But realistically even casual players have a general notion of what to do here even if they aren't min/maxing it to the nth degree.I'm sure there are still some stubborn raid alliances as you put it that aren't valuing brawler tanks, but as a whole even the most casual raid forces I have experience with do value and use them for MT/OT roles.Since your opinion is in the minority, I'd suggest you find some numbers to indicate that in current ruleset similarly geared monks are not avoiding more damage and not able to run effectively the same mitigation of damage. As a plate tank all I need to do is examine similarly geared monks and its abundantly obvious when they are within 500 mitigation of my plate tank, benefit from uncontested avoidance, a boat load of death saves, and have naturally higher avoidance, that yeah they're easier to keep standing.Now certainly monks that don't understand how their avoidance works and what stats to reforge and not reforge, and which gear to pick from that is best for them are not standing out from other fighters around them.

Caethre

07-05-2012 05:42 PM

<cite>Tekadeo wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you are only doing heroic grouping, then these changes do not really affect you. Why?Also I'm about 90% certain heroic mobs don't use strikethrough. So the nerf to your defensive stance is meaningless if you aren't raiding. Correct me with some proof if you have any.</blockquote>((Are you reading the thread at all? Where did I say anything about "only doing heroic grouping"?I was referring to the 99% of players who do any and/or all of: small groups, groups, pickup raids, alliance and semi-open raids, casual raids, the lot.The only thing I did not include were the tiny minority of raidforces working on the top-end HM content, where some are reporting an imbalance in the fighter classes. I made no comment on SPECIFICALLY that, because I do not do that, other than to say, that the game should never never never be balanced for 100% percent of the players based on a problem (if one exists, I can't say) for only 1% of them. Solve the problem in that 1%!This thread is not about strikethrough immunity, either, pay attention. No casual style brawler player is going to be too concerned about the strikethrugh immunity changes, because as you pointed it, it barely affects us.What DOES affect us, is unnecessary targetted nerfs of things like BRAWLER TENACITY. See the thread title? The thing that does not affect your class, but nerfs brawlers, and is completely unnecessary nerf, and only being SUPPORTED by class-jealousy amongst a very small number of plate tank players.))

Bartimaeus

07-05-2012 05:42 PM

<cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I log in tonight, I will not see in channel: HEROIC GROUP for UD forming - Need MONK tank!!!Nor will I see: OPEN UDx4 RAID forming - NEED MONK Tanks Now!!!</blockquote>It doesn't change the fact that the monk class has the most potential to excell at that content. In that they can survive doing those zones with worse healers than really any other fighter class.</blockquote>(( The problem with this reply is that your statement I have quoted in red above is not true. It is merely imagined, and totally untrue in fact.It is my opinion that you and certain other individuals on this forum, are directly and repeatedly telling mistruths in making these kinds of claims, with absolutely zero evidence to back them up with, based on unjustified class jealousy.My own experience remains, over a period of the last few years, that given a choice, most groups and casual raids will still take a plate tank over a brawler, especially for MT on a casual or alliance raid, unless they already know the brawler player well. And they have good reason too, at least in the case of the SK or Guardian, because those classes will do at least a good a job as any equivalent brawler, if not better. And when it comes to mobs requiring control of lots of adds, nothing comes close to the SK or Beserker for that kind of OT control - no equivalent monk can get close to as good a job done, hell I am a monk player and I'd not take a monk for that!There is no excuse for the propagation of that kind of thing by FURTHER NERFS to the brawler classes, all because the 1% doing HM raiding have a balance issue in the other direction in the content they are facing, and because a few plate tank players are making unjustifiable statements on the forums about brawlers being 'overpowered' ))</blockquote>This is the most bollocks I've heard. Sounds like the people on your server are mis-informed because about 50% of the pick up raids I've been to have a Monk MT.As for your argument regarding 'Looking for MONK tank' ... when was the last time you saw: 'Group looking for BERSERKER tank'.Usually tanks make their own groups to suit their needs too, thats the best way to do it usually, and Monks.. like everyone else.. do not struggle to form a group which will excel if they are good players and have a group which suits their needs.To say that 'ohhh monks can't get heroic groups' is just absurd because every group I've been in that advertises 'Group needs tank' etc, will simply look at someones stats (HP, CC) then throw an invite.. and I'm a berserker.^^ Agree with Takedo, I would take the brawler death save every day of the week instead of my BS '3%/15% per second which never actually has ever saved my life in a raid'^ Reiterates my point that the people on your server are mis-informed, who the hell would form a pick up raid without any bards =/ And you have just proved your own point, its all about the gear/player as to who is chosen for MT (not the class) in all but the highest end content. If you have anywhere north of 50k HP solo then TANKING UD is a breeze (the first two floors anyway, and this excludes wipes due to poor raid execution.. talking about tanking only) with competent healers

Yimway

07-05-2012 05:43 PM

<cite>Laenai@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its because everyone and their freaking brother has an SK. Even -I- have an SK and I hate SKs.</blockquote>Me too <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Caethre

07-05-2012 05:55 PM

<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>The difference in healing a plate tank and a monk on any encounter with strikethru attached to it is simply night and day, even after the on avoidance damage was added (since its still less than actually getting hit),</blockquote>((Your whole reply was based on this statement. The key part being "with strikethrough attached". Encounters which have strikethrough were biased towards brawler tanking.However, I have at no point in this or any other thread, made any complaint about the removal of strikethrough immunity and the replacement with temps for all fighters. Why? Firstly, because not a lot of content which players like me actually needs strikethrough immunity in the first place! Secondly, because the change seems inherently fair, basically.My point on this thread (I refer you to the THREAD TITLE) is not about strikethrough immunity, it is about further and unnecessary nerfs. For content where strikethrough immunity is not relevant, there is zero, zip, none, naddo evidence of brawlers being selected over plate tanks for MT roles. None. At all. I charge you with making it up if you say otherwise, based on not only my experience as a brawler tank, but on playing healers and DPS.And no, brawlers are NOT easier to heal than plate tanks. I challenge that as well. Again, outside the scenario of mobs with massive strikethrough, which are not exactly common outside the hardest raidzones.))<cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Since your opinion is in the minority, I'd suggest you find some numbers to indicate that in current ruleset similarly geared monks are not avoiding more damage and not able to run effectively the same mitigation of damage.</blockquote>((This is also a baseless assertion. Yes, I am a "minority view" amongst the HM raiders who dominate these forums. But out there in real playing EQII land, people I group with and play alongside, say otherwise from you.Brawlers are no longer just laughed at for daring to want to be the MT, as they used to be at one time, but they are definitely not the "clear #1 choice".))

Caethre

07-05-2012 05:58 PM

<cite>Bartimaeus wrote:</cite><blockquote>To say that 'ohhh monks can't get heroic groups' is just absurd</blockquote>((Straw man argument. Where did I say that? Oh that's right ... I didn't.All tanks can get heroic groups, of course. None of them are actually "broken".However, the statement "monks are clearly the #1 choice" for heroic groups (or casual raids, or anything else outside HM raiding) is a straight bare-faced lie.That is what I actually said.))

Caethre

07-05-2012 06:07 PM

<cite>Bartimaeus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Reiterates my point that the people on your server are mis-informed, who the hell would form a pick up raid without any bards =/</blockquote>((This made me laugh, because it shows you have no connection with the reality for casual style players.When I see a pickup raid forming, if it is somewhere I would like to go, and I have time, I will join, with one of my characters that is of sufficient gear level, if I want to play them. If it isn't the right composition, because (for example) no bards AT ALL offer to come, does the raid:(A) disband and give up, or(B) go anyway.You may be the "give up and run away" type. Not all of us are. Some of us might take the challenge. Ok sometimes it can be a total disaster, I'll give you that, been there done that, but sometimes, the raid does far better than expected.It is another world from hardmode or organized raidforces, but it does not make people "uninformed", it just means, sometimes you take what you can get and play rather than slink off home and just give up.Not that this has anything to do with the thread, but your thowing insults at all casual and pickup raiders just on principle for doing raids with poor compositions sometimes just shows how out of touch you are.))

Rasttan

07-05-2012 07:21 PM

My post is about Tenacity, I have raided this game for ever, Ran every instance this game has ever had I know this class. I'm not asking for Strikethrough immunity back, I dont care about other classes deathsaves if you want your classes deathsave changed make a post, I dont care about other tanks dps, I'm not mentioning the World wide mitt loss.I'm putting in my comments, on my classes ability which has been changed on test to frankly what I consider with my 8 years of playing this class an Overkill of my classes ability. Whats going on in live now is irrelevent as on the 24th its all going to change. And of those numerous changes many which will weaken my class I want one adjusted my death prevent.A death prevent on that short of a timer with so many AA in it is an ability that I want Fixed for my class, because in its current form on test the change was to much based on the AA investment, and to much based on the other changes to game mechanics that effect my class.My 8 years, 500 days played, WW1st killing of numerous mobs and an Xpac gives me a real good idea of how this class performs and what I want to see done to it. The Tenacity change is to much its as simple as that to me. And I would be a fool to sit back and not get involved with trying to reverse it or change it.

Tigerr

07-06-2012 04:17 AM

Honestly, they SHOULD start basing the "balance" on raiding monks. ( no offense Felish) . The reason I say this is because so far, they demonstrated that the balance is based on level 60 monks or a toon that they beta buffed up to max without ANY knowledge of the class. This idiotic decision is probably based on 10 minutes of getting hit in a heroic zone. I'd BEG for them to test it in raid settings so well, they ACTUALLY understand how stuff works. It feels like this decision is based on scrub heroic stuff that assumes that "ALL TANKZ SHOULD BE EQUALZZLZZZ". In a raid setting, the monk will NOT be the number one choice, sure there are things that are great but, what sony doesn't understand is that most of the plate tanks were more or on par with brawler stats. Brawlers were never NEEDED for the skyshrine stuff and honestly, I don't know why this went in NOW, out of all the times that they could have pushed it in, they pushed it in when Skyshrine does not require a brawler to get through. During drunder, the ideal tank was the brawler, if sony continues listening to the "HERPDEDERP" playerbase, there are going to be many more decisions like this. I do not have a monk as a main and I know that this will be a significant nerf. Sorry monks, SoE is too busy giving the "herpdederps" a dps stance and nerfing mitigation to do enough testing to understand that this is detrimental to the monk class.

Rageincarnate

07-06-2012 06:07 PM

Let me just recap.You lowered my mit so i take Bigger melee hits and trauma ae's will hit me harder. Yes, i know mit temps. I'm trying to understand the logic.You made my defensive temps make me take damage instead of block it while tanking HM mobs..... It's kind of a sick joke.. ok heres your strikethrough immune.. oh it might kill you.You removed strikethrough immune from my D stance so i get hit harder.- edit.. sorry should be ** more** not harderYou lowered the duration on my death save, and are purposely making it so i can't use it properly. I consider using a deathsave properly to be responding to a triggered or scripted event. aka...140k ae incoming.. death prevent.. NOT run it because i might die any hit.I'm trying to imagine what your goal is.. raid wipes? We aren't wiping enough? If you want other tanks to get raid invites.. make them able to tank.Make scripts that actually make USE of the class abilitiess!!!!!!!!Adds? whatever happened to having real adds? Not two extra named that are called adds that hit for 100k autos.. but actual adds.OH NOES 100 drakes INC!!! PICK EM UP!! sure glad we have an sk... or sure glad we have a zerk...Whatever happened to ring events?? Remember ykesha??Remember the dude at the end of mad crusader?All the tanks want mt abilities.. CAUSE THATS WHAT YOU NEED TO TANK EVEN ADDS NOWADAYS!!Oh hey, off tank?? pick up those adds? wait...??#%^@$%#$@ what the?? the adds have a stronger ae then the name?? What the ??I'm done <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> rant over.

Bruener

07-06-2012 08:04 PM

<cite>Rageincarnate@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let me just recap.You lowered my mit so i take Bigger melee hits and trauma ae's will hit me harder. Yes, i know mit temps. I'm trying to understand the logic.It was a global mit nerf affecting all Tanks the same. And since Brawlers can reach even higher levels of mit than Plate tanks with their temps they have the least room to complain.You made my defensive temps make me take damage instead of block it while tanking HM mobs..... It's kind of a sick joke.. ok heres your strikethrough immune.. oh it might kill you.This is to try and make sure you actually take some damage since your avoidance means you were taking significantly less than other Tanks. The hits are less than auto attacks and not as big of a deal as people make them out to be.You removed strikethrough immune from my D stance so i get hit harder.- edit.. sorry should be ** more** not harderLong overdue change since the idea of Strike-through was to give SOE some control on auto attack damage of mobs. Brawler strike through immunity hasn't been needed since SF and made the mechanic unbalanced. Brawlers still have superior avoidance.You lowered the duration on my death save, and are purposely making it so i can't use it properly. I consider using a deathsave properly to be responding to a triggered or scripted event. aka...140k ae incoming.. death prevent.. It still is used the way you said. Incoming AE, hit death save, and live. It is still the best Death Save in the game with its duration, trigger chance, and reuse capability.NOT run it because i might die any hit.I'm trying to imagine what your goal is.. raid wipes? We aren't wiping enough? If you want other tanks to get raid invites.. make them able to tank.Other tanks can tank. They tank at the level they are supposed to. Brawlers were trivializing content because of their superior avoidance and abilities.Make scripts that actually make USE of the class abilitiess!!!!!!!!Adds? whatever happened to having real adds? Not two extra named that are called adds that hit for 100k autos.. but actual adds.OH NOES 100 drakes INC!!! PICK EM UP!! sure glad we have an sk... or sure glad we have a zerk...Whatever happened to ring events?? Remember ykesha??Remember the dude at the end of mad crusader?All the tanks want mt abilities.. CAUSE THATS WHAT YOU NEED TO TANK EVEN ADDS NOWADAYS!!Oh hey, off tank?? pick up those adds? wait...??#%^@$%#$@ what the?? the adds have a stronger ae then the name?? What the ??I'm done <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /> rant over.Some fights do have decent adds, and what SOE sees is those AE fights Brawlers still thrive in due to superior avoidance and best abilities still. They can't make the adds too whimpy otherwise the Warlock will just tank them every time, and make them strong enough to own non-tanks and Brawlers just win.</blockquote>

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