<p>Not surprisingly BG is becoming populated by griefers, exploiters, and hackers. This is typical behavior of many people attracted by pvp in the first place. Not surprisingly the majority of these types also hail from the nagafen server.</p><p>Tonight for instance i saw multiple speed hackers. a few unkillable wardens and wizards. people with unending power or super mana regen and then the people who use vote afk to grief other players.</p><p>Tonight for instance i joined a smug den group in progress at around 400 pts. Soon as i zone in some guy votes afk me. So i ask whats his deal i just joined. He laughs and starts threatening me. then his buddies join in and vote afk me and ban me givin me a 5 min truancy. When the truancy ends i re que for smug den only to end up in the same game and on the same team. These idiots immediately start tryin to afk vote ban me again just to grief me. luckily the game ended before they could get me again.</p><p>Is there anyway SOE can make it so a player has a longer grace period upon joining games or between finding people to attack so these griefers cant use the afk function to anger and annoy other players?</p><p>Also what is the best way to report explotiers and hackers for cheating?</p><p>Lastly please make it so people cant get on top of the buildings in ganak. it ruins the fun of the game and should be considered exploiting the enviroment.</p>

<p>We from Nagafen sure is evil. And using the enviroment is part of pvp.</p>

<p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We from Nagafen sure is evil. And using the enviroment is part of pvp.</p></blockquote><p>Thats not the point. The point is when you see someone cheating, it is far far more often than not someone from nagafen. For those that play legitimately I have no qualms and hats off if you're better, but seriously there is a vastly disproportionate amount of cheaters and bm players from nagafen vs thost that are not from nagafen.</p><p>As for the environment part, LOS and aoes through walls is one thing, a tank using a short durration invulnerability endline tso ability or a fury w/ cheetah and several CC immunities when activated items and charging the flag back to the base at full blast is pretty much not something that can be reliably stopped. Even worse is if their flag is gone and they decide to take the flag up on top of the building and turtle the crap out of it. That gets really old fast just like a gears match where you have 0 healers or utility and the other team has 2 healers and utility. The idea of ganak is to swarm the other base and come up with strategies on the fly to get the enemies flag. It is NOT to turtle the crap out of it and drag the match out as long as possible while camping flags on top of the buildings when ever possible and playing hide and go seek the flag.</p><p>I was in several matchs the other night where someone took my teams flag up on top of the building and all of their team turtled the points to get up onto there and that could LOS it. They kept it up there until nearly the end, then scored the flag so that there was almost no time left to get theirs. That match ended as a time up, and neither team was that close to 700. That was a very painful hour of BGs and I'm pretty sure is not what the developer's intended.</p><p>Making the top of the building easier to get onto in mid stride would make such things a non-issue because it wouldn't be nearly as difficult to get to those hiding from the fight, and it still leaves terrain as a viable tactical advantage, just not one that is proportionately way beyond overly advantageous of a location to be at. Ganak is supposed to be a battle, it should not reward those that take pains to hide completely from the battle.</p>

<p><cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Guld_Ulrish wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>We from Nagafen sure is evil. And using the enviroment is part of pvp.</p></blockquote><p>Thats not the point. The point is when you see someone cheating, it is far far more often than not someone from nagafen. For those that play legitimately I have no qualms and hats off if you're better, but seriously there is a vastly disproportionate amount of cheaters and bm players from nagafen vs thost that are not from nagafen.</p><p>As for the environment part, LOS and aoes through walls is one thing, a tank using a short durration invulnerability endline tso ability or a fury w/ cheetah and several CC immunities when activated items and charging the flag back to the base at full blast is pretty much not something that can be reliably stopped. Even worse is if their flag is gone and they decide to take the flag up on top of the building and turtle the crap out of it. That gets really old fast just like a gears match where you have 0 healers or utility and the other team has 2 healers and utility. The idea of ganak is to swarm the other base and come up with strategies on the fly to get the enemies flag. It is NOT to turtle the crap out of it and drag the match out as long as possible while camping flags on top of the buildings when ever possible and playing hide and go seek the flag.</p><p>I was in several matchs the other night where someone took my teams flag up on top of the building and all of their team turtled the points to get up onto there and that could LOS it. They kept it up there until nearly the end, then scored the flag so that there was almost no time left to get theirs. That match ended as a time up, and neither team was that close to 700. That was a very painful hour of BGs and I'm pretty sure is not what the developer's intended.</p><p>Making the top of the building easier to get onto in mid stride would make such things a non-issue because it wouldn't be nearly as difficult to get to those hiding from the fight, and it still leaves terrain as a viable tactical advantage, just not one that is proportionately way beyond overly advantageous of a location to be at. Ganak is supposed to be a battle, it should not reward those that take pains to hide completely from the battle.</p></blockquote><p>Know what's a good plan? To know what you're talking about before posting. Ganak doesn't go up to 700 points.</p><p>Using endlines to take the flag isn't something that people from nagafen only use. Come on, you think that's cheating? OMG YOU'RE USING YOUR ABILITIES TO MAXIMIZE YOUR SURVIVABILITY TO STEAL OUR FLAG! NOOOOOOOOOOO!</p><p>Edit: And as far as someone being out of your range when they jump up ontop of the building, why not buy some jump boots? Or maybe get someone who has fear to simply fear them off? If that guy spent money on jump boots to get up there, than you can spend the same effort to get to him. You're complaining about something that you can fix yourself with ingame mechanics. Without these in game mechanics PVP and BGs would be dull.</p>

<p>I could be wrong (normally am) but how are they using the AFK thing to grief you.  If you were moving or doing anything wont it stop them from being able to /afk you?</p>

<p><cite>cdogw1983 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Not surprisingly BG is becoming populated by griefers, exploiters, and hackers. This is typical behavior of many people attracted by pvp in the first place. Not surprisingly the majority of these types also hail from the nagafen server.</p><p>Tonight for instance i saw multiple speed hackers. <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">a few unkillable wardens and wizards. people with unending power or super mana regen </span></strong>and then the people who use vote afk to grief other players.</p></blockquote><p>This line is win.  You do realize that having way better mana regen gear than whatever crap you have is not a hack?  And unkillable wardens?  Are you serious?  I guess every single decently played warden is hacking, ban them all!!!!11</p><p>These players couldnt possibly just be way way better than you and be using their skills properly at the right times.  No, its definitely the leet hax.</p><p>lulz</p>

<div><p>He has valid points however his blame is a bit misguided. It isn't hacks its just unskilled players that cant win on even footing so they find imbalance and exploit it.</p><p>Floating to places not reachable by normal players isnt "using the terrain" its exploiting a weakness in the map. I highly doubt SoE intended people to get the flag then "float" to a place only a few people can get to. Congratulations you can fly and sit in a corner and suck your thumb that makes for one excellent match. /sarcasm off </p><p>Unkillable Wardens and Wizards. Not a hack its a combination of twinking and aa stacking. Probably most of the trolls above are in that crowd. Right now toughness, defense, and heals doesn't match dps. I have seen many of these healers with 4 people wailing on them stifling, stunning, and kicking them around. Without casting a single spell they are fine the one regen they get off every 20 seconds keeps them up. Thats not skill its imbalance so stop stating its skill when its blatantly just gear and the aa. Take all that awayfrom both your attackers and you and youd be stomped into the ground on equal footing.</p><p>Running at 90 speed while invulnerable to root speaks for itself. Not a hack just a combation of abilities and aa. Congratulations you can grab the flag no-one can stop you and you will always win ganak. Sure its boring for the other 23 players and involves no skill at all but you win and thats all that matters. /sarcasm off</p><p>So to all of the above posters. Yes you will win, and obviously from your inane posts all of you will go to any lengths to do so. You can lie to him and me but you cant lie to yourself that theres absolutely no skill involved in those techniques just another cheap trick to get the win.</p><p>If it were up to me there would be an AA cap and gear would make you strong but not invincible. If 4 people attack one player and he/she has no outside help he/she would lose, might take out one of them but he would die. You would have to rely on teamwork and tactics.</p><p>For challenging matches which involve skill, tactics, and intuition I will stick to Counterstrike, Battlefield, and Call of Duty. I just watch you nubtards run around thinking your awesome for the gear.</p><p>-Mal</p><p>"I aim to misbehave"</p></div>

<p><cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This line is win.  You do realize that having way better mana regen gear than whatever crap you have is not a hack?  And unkillable wardens?  Are you serious?  I guess every single decently played warden is hacking, ban them all!!!!11</p><p>These players couldnt possibly just be way way better than you and be using their skills properly at the right times.  No, its definitely the leet hax.</p><p>lulz</p></blockquote><p>lol. whatever crap im wearing huh? im in nearly full BG gear. and i mean the new armor+half of all my jewlery. Its not just a gear issue. Stop pretending it is others lack of skill or gear. When a 10k warden is unkillable because he is ghosting or never takes any damage its an obvious cheat of some kind. Wizzes with unening mana shields without a power regen in their group is not sustainable without cheats i dont care what kind of awesome super secret squirrel gear u have.</p><p>And yes it is these people most likely using 3rd party programs. Its not like they are tough to find if one really wants to and they dont need to be leet programmers to use the hacks either.</p><p>Oh and with the vote afk griefers in smug den you have to actually do something like attack another person to stay active. just running around wont do it. So yes people can abuse the system and grief other players with it. You would know this if you learned to play.</p>

<p>omg..  what is next?    Haxxors hiding behind trees so I can't target them!!!  BAN BAN</p><p>Every single player CAN get on the walls in Ganak.  If you are too stupid to figure it out then you lose at life.</p>

<p><cite>Pauly@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>omg..  what is next?    Haxxors hiding behind trees so I can't target them!!!  BAN BAN</p><p>Every single player CAN get on the walls in Ganak.  If you are too stupid to figure it out then you lose at life.</p></blockquote><p>Ah yes. I can see how ones ability to reach the top of the walls in ganak should be the pinnacle of achievement in ones life. You must be a real wiener err winner.</p>

<p><cite><a href="mailto:Malifex@Crushbone">Malifex@Crushbone</a> wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> For challenging matches which involve skill, tactics, and intuition I will stick to Counterstrike, Battlefield, and Call of Duty. I just watch you nubtards run around thinking your awesome for the gear.</p><div></div></blockquote><p>Gratz, you have managed to determine the difference between a fps and a rpg.  With a shooter any player can pick up the game and instantly compete with the best players in the game if they understand the basic gameplay.  An rpg is based on character advancement over time within a complex stat based combat system.  Therefore pvp in an rpg is based on skill, knowledge, and on the combined time and effort you have put into that character up to the point of combat.  If you want to just log on and shoot people I suggest you plug your xbox back in.  Rpg pvp involves designing your character spec and planning before you even step onto the battlefield.  Not just twitch like an fps.</p><p><cite>cdogw1983 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This line is win.  You do realize that having way better mana regen gear than whatever crap you have is not a hack?  And unkillable wardens?  Are you serious?  I guess every single decently played warden is hacking, ban them all!!!!11</p><p>These players couldnt possibly just be way way better than you and be using their skills properly at the right times.  No, its definitely the leet hax.</p><p>lulz</p></blockquote><p>lol. whatever crap im wearing huh? im in nearly full BG gear. and i mean the new armor+half of all my jewlery. Its not just a gear issue. Stop pretending it is others lack of skill or gear. When a 10k warden is unkillable because he is ghosting or never takes any damage its an obvious cheat of some kind. Wizzes with unening mana shields without a power regen in their group is not sustainable without cheats i dont care what kind of awesome super secret squirrel gear u have.</p><p>And yes it is these people most likely using 3rd party programs. Its not like they are tough to find if one really wants to and they dont need to be leet programmers to use the hacks either.</p><p>Oh and with the vote afk griefers in smug den you have to actually do something like attack another person to stay active. just running around wont do it. So yes people can abuse the system and grief other players with it. You would know this if you learned to play.</p></blockquote><p>You are showing your ignorance.  Who cares if youre almost in full bg gear.  I cant think of any class (correct me if someone can but I doubt it) for which the full 90 bg gear set is the best possible spec.  This just demonstrates the difference between pvpers who have been used to designing their combinations of gear and aa specs for pvp for years and newbies who just take whats handed to them and assume that wearing it will make them "leet".</p><p>These sets of gear dumb it down so much that we get people like you who actually think they know what they are talking about.</p><p>"Oh what gear should I use? I'll just get this shiny new stuff, its the newest so it must be the best for every slot. Oh what spec should I use? lets copy some noob on the forums instead of learning what things do myself.  Oh what buttons should I push? lets get someone else to tell me the order they press buttons instead of learning to play."</p><p>Its outright sickening to any pvper.</p><p>Most of the 90 bg sets have almost nill power regen.  Depending on what class you are you can get some good stuff from old t8 content (find it yourself).  The interwebs are your friend when looking for what drops where.</p><p>Good wardens can stand up to alot of damage before you are going to even get through their hot ticks.  Yeah if you are hitting him by yourself and he's running away...you arent going to noticably damage him.... sorry, he's a healer, duh.  Your dps classes should be burning him down instead of humping each other in the big open field like most pug groups do.</p><p>Oh and wizzies?  Yeah if theyre speced properly, in the right combo of gear (not full bg gear omg!!!), and you are a non-predator melee class...thats not mana shield.  Sorry, your hits are just being passively absorbed.</p><p>If someone wants to use a third party hack, why would they give themselves unlimited power when they could just teleport around the zone oneshotting people?  Honestly the things noobs say to avoid admitting they lost are absurd.</p>

<p>lol@ above poster. Ive seen people with laughably bad gear doing all the things i have listed. you gonna tell me an entire team couldnt do 1 tick of damage on a 10k warden because he had a awesome pvp setup? shutup dude your so full of crap. Just another cheater trying to play interference on the forums most likely.  Stop ruining the game for everyone else because you cant play legit.</p>

<p><cite>cdogw1983 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>lol@ above poster. Ive seen people with laughably bad gear doing all the things i have listed. you gonna tell me an entire team couldnt do 1 tick of damage on a 10k warden because he had a awesome pvp setup? shutup dude your so full of crap. Just another cheater trying to play interference on the forums most likely.  Stop ruining the game for everyone else because you cant play legit.</p></blockquote><p>A 10k warden?  Is that supposed to be his hp off of eq2players.com or something?  And when you say you cant do one tick of damage, do you mean their health bar isnt moving or that you are actually parsing the log file?  About 99% of people claiming someone is hacking are wrong.  The only "hacking" I've ever seen used in game is speed hacking, which is rare and looks absolutely nothing like what most people claim is speed hacking (someone running faster than you). </p><p>Honestly unless someone does something that cant be replicated legitimately you need to actually demonstrate your point.  If you were able to lay out a specific scenario, instead of just vaguely accusing some mystery player and most likely exaggerating (witness accounts tend to be very inaccurate if the "witness" has already decided what they saw), I am fairly certain that I could work out what actually happened within the legitimate ruleset of the game.</p><p>You havent even stated what class you were playing, how are we supposed to even estimate your outgoing damage against the leet haxor warden?</p><p>If your entire argument is that someone is hacking because they didnt die when you hit them, and your evidence is that you didnt see their health bar spike...all you prove is your failure to understand the possiblity that someone could be warded, or have a stoneskin, or a temp damage immunity, or have better gear than you, or half a dozen other possiblities depending on the specifics of the situation.</p>

<p><cite>Malifex@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><div><p>For challenging matches which involve skill, tactics, and intuition I will stick to Counterstrike, Battlefield, and <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em><strong>Call of Duty</strong></em></span>.</p></div></blockquote><p>lol</p><p>Battlefield does rock though.</p>

<p><cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Therefore pvp in an rpg is based on skill, knowledge, and on the combined time and effort you have put into that character up to the point of combat.  If you want to just log on and shoot people I suggest you plug your xbox back in.  Rpg pvp involves designing your character spec and planning before you even step onto the battlefield.  Not just twitch like an fps.</blockquote><p>EQ2 requires very little skill tbh. FPS actually require skill and tactics. The only skills you need for EQ2 are basic generic gaming skills, dealing with the horrible targetting system, and not fat-fingering 2 hotbar buttons if you use a keyboard.</p><p>Oh, and on another note... I camp with the flag on top of the buildings in Ganak all the time. If you don't want me up there then make me get down.</p>

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Therefore pvp in an rpg is based on skill, knowledge, and on the combined time and effort you have put into that character up to the point of combat.  If you want to just log on and shoot people I suggest you plug your xbox back in.  Rpg pvp involves designing your character spec and planning before you even step onto the battlefield.  Not just twitch like an fps.</blockquote><p>EQ2 requires very little skill tbh. FPS actually require skill and tactics. The only skills you need for EQ2 are basic generic gaming skills, dealing with the horrible targetting system, and not fat-fingering 2 hotbar buttons if you use a keyboard.</p><p>Oh, and on another note... I camp with the flag on top of the buildings in Ganak all the time. If you don't want me up there then make me get down.</p></blockquote><p>This depends on your definition of skill.  Most classes require less twitch skill than a fps.  However in battlefield you dont need to identify a fighter's defensive 100% parry buff and kite them for 10 seconds.</p><p>Different genre, different skill set.  I dont know why we get all these fps gamers over here trying to compare rpgs to shooters.  Yes rpgs are complicated, geeky, and less twitchy than shooters.  This is simply a statement of fact.  They are based on stats and numbers instead of headshots.  Stop dumbing down rpgs.</p>

<p><cite>cdogw1983 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Pauly@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>omg..  what is next?    Haxxors hiding behind trees so I can't target them!!!  BAN BAN</p><p>Every single player CAN get on the walls in Ganak.  If you are too stupid to figure it out then you lose at life.</p></blockquote><p>Ah yes. I can see how ones ability to reach the top of the walls in ganak should be the pinnacle of achievement in ones life. You must be a real wiener err winner.</p></blockquote><p>you are they one saying its a "cheat"    Can't you follow them up there and kill them?  It isn't hard.</p>

<p><cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>This depends on your definition of skill.  Most classes require less twitch skill than a fps.  However in battlefield you dont need to identify a fighter's defensive 100% parry buff and kite them for 10 seconds.<p>Different genre, different skill set.  I dont know why we get all these fps gamers over here trying to compare rpgs to shooters.  Yes rpgs are complicated, geeky, and less twitchy than shooters.  This is simply a statement of fact.  They are based on stats and numbers instead of headshots.  Stop dumbing down rpgs.</p></blockquote><p>It's kinda hard to define skill IMO, but I think a lot of people confuse skill with tactics, gear, or group setup. Identifying other players' buffs and watching your own buffs is a tactical thing. Pushing hotbar commands as you cycle your snares, roots and other CC isn't hard. It may require some amount of skill, but certainly not much. Again, chosing when and how to cycle your abilities is more of a tactical decision... it's not actually difficult to execute the ability. However, lift jumping off an elevator lift, dodging off a wall, putting your mouse pointer on another sprinting/jumping/dodging player's head 1000 yards away while compensating for lag, and killing them before you land takes skill.</p><p>EQ2 requires good tactics, gear, and complimentary buffs... but not much skill. I wouldn't say it requires no skill though. If you are in a situation where you have to target randomly moving players (or mobs for that matter), and execute specific abilities on each of them in rapid succession... that does take a generous amount of skill. Especially if you have a lot of other things going on that require your attention like group members' HP and position, enemy positions and classes, and game status. Again, it's a lot of tactical-type stuff, but it does take some skill to make a complicated game-plan on the fly and start targetting a bunch of moving/jumping players, and put the right abilities on the right players... and adjust your tactic as the battlefield changes in the middle of executing your plan. A decent amount of that diffuculty comes from dealing with EQ2's clumsy targetting system though. And, these situations aren't really all that common. Most of the time I find myself chasing someone, running from someone, or just in an all-out melee.</p>

<p><cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Gratz, you have managed to determine the difference between a fps and a rpg.  With a shooter any player can pick up the game and instantly compete with the best players in the game if they understand the basic gameplay.  An rpg is based on character advancement over time within a complex stat based combat system.  Therefore pvp in an rpg is based on skill, knowledge, and on the combined time and effort you have put into that character up to the point of combat.  If you want to just log on and shoot people I suggest you plug your xbox back in.  </p><p>......</p></blockquote><p>Gratz you managed to completely miss the point, next time try reading the post. I stated that someone with time invested should be strong not invulnerable to 5 players wailing on them. If you think that someone should be able to stand there casting a single spell every 20 seconds while an entire group wails on them because they invested time is balanced, correct, or even a match your an idiot.</p><p>No skill involved in standing there because you twinked and maxed aa on a lvl 39 warden. I have played many MMO's and FPS's I know the difference and if you think this is PvP your mistaken. Perhaps you should plug in an Xbox or try an Mmo where theres actual pvp balance and see what real skill is. Obviously you lack it so you found a game where you can substitute skill with time.</p><p>Perhaps the balance issues he speaks of are for tiers below 90 as well. I know thats what I was talking about. I PvE with my 90s and get start gear for new 90s on lower tier bgs because I figured there would be a better playing field without the ridiculous gear, ability, and AA combos in the later levels. I was mistaken.</p><p>Everquest 2 has great PvE but compared to WoW, Warhammer, Age of Conan, and many others PvP here is a joke.</p><p>These arent matches they are bore fests. Bunch of people with too much time on their hands using whatever means to win because they couldnt cut it with teamwork, tactics, and skill. </p><p>Im still getting my tokens because for every time I lose to one of these nubtards I get 3 matches where they are on my team. I just find it funny that you are all under the delusion that this involves any type of skill.</p><p>-Mal</p><p>"I aim to misbehave"</p>

<p>OP, the toon you were on when this happened is Ty- something right?  I was there there the match you were voted AFK, then came back after truancy.  I was one of the ones who voted you.</p><p>The AFK system is set up so that its is NOT POSSIBLE to vote you AFK if you are "participating."  SOE doesn't exactly define "participating" for us, so that the people intentionally doing everything they can to get AFK tokens cannot combat the system.  During most matches I will check the score (when I have time) and vote AFK the people who are CLEARLY not participating.</p><p>If I check the score board and you've put up all zeros halfway through the match, and you don't show on my chat log as just joining the match recently, I'm voting you AFK.  And I usually have enough people with me to make the vote go through.</p><p>Every now and then someone who just joined the raid mod-match might get caught up in the AFK voting sweep.  SOE might have it set right now that if you join a match mid-fight, you can be voted immediately, I'm not sure.  That would be a bug.  But if its set at the regular minute interval, even if you join halfway through, I'll buy that you could arguably zone into a match and it would appear that you do nothing for a minute because you're actually running around turning towers, and haven't seen an enemy.  Which means you might improperly get caught up in an AFK sweep when you join late.</p><p>I don't take a poll to see why people aren't participating.  I don't ask apparent AFKers to fill out a questionaire.  There are far too many AFKers for me to investigate whether you're legitimately "trying".  I vote the people who are putting up ridiculously low numbers (DPS or healing) in the half-second I allot to check the score.</p><p>Had you fulfilled the requirements of not getting kicked for the match, a player would not be able to boot you.  Maybe instead of this ranting post, you should provide a legitimate explaination of why it is that you were able to be booted, and exactly what you did before being voted.  With that information, perhaps SOE can put more criteria in the AFK kicking process.  </p><p>The bigger problem I have is that SOE allowed someone who got booted for truancy back into the same match.  THAT is a bug in the system.</p><p>Finally, complaining about the classes you complained about, and calling them hackers and cheaters is quite simply a lack of understanding of PVP mechanics, and AA and gear as it applies to PVP.  Its making you look foolish.</p>

<p><cite>Malifex@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Gratz, you have managed to determine the difference between a fps and a rpg.  With a shooter any player can pick up the game and instantly compete with the best players in the game if they understand the basic gameplay.  An rpg is based on character advancement over time within a complex stat based combat system.  Therefore pvp in an rpg is based on skill, knowledge, and on the combined time and effort you have put into that character up to the point of combat.  If you want to just log on and shoot people I suggest you plug your xbox back in.  </p><p>......</p></blockquote><p>Gratz you managed to completely miss the point, next time try reading the post. I stated that someone with time invested should be strong not invulnerable to 5 players wailing on them. If you think that someone should be able to stand there casting a single spell every 20 seconds while an entire group wails on them because they invested time is balanced, correct, or even a match your an idiot.</p><p>...</p></blockquote><p>If someone is standing the middle of 5 players hitting them and not actively fighting back to survive, those 5 players are wearing handcrafted gear.  And yes I think a raider should be essentially immune to someone who put a total of 2 minutes into acquiring their gear.</p><p>Either that or the 5 players are all healers and tanks and the one person has no chance of killing any of them either.</p><p>Absurd exaggerations just makes you look like an idiot.</p>

<p><cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Gratz, you have managed to determine the difference between a fps and a rpg.  With a shooter any player can pick up the game and instantly compete with the best players in the game if they understand the basic gameplay.  An rpg is based on character advancement over time within a complex stat based combat system.  Therefore pvp in an rpg is based on skill, knowledge, and on the combined time and effort you have put into that character up to the point of combat.  If you want to just log on and shoot people I suggest you plug your xbox back in.  Rpg pvp involves designing your character spec and planning before you even step onto the battlefield.  Not just twitch like an fps.</p></blockquote><p>Lol, that's the funniest thing I've heard in a while.  I don't see a very large difference in the skills required to play Battlegrounds for instance and a FPS shooter, especially in the last 10 years when most of them feature things like engineers, medics, heavy armor, etc etc.  It all comes down to mashing the right button at the right time.</p><p>Lets see, log on, play BG's nonstop until I reach level 90 and have a full suit and jewelry of BG fabled gear, then mash buttons.  Oh wait I have to run and capture a flag, I've never seen CTF in a FPS before.  Oh I have to grab a gear and sit there until I die and drop it.  And the clear winner of the Einstein gaming award, half my team needs to take a tower and the other half needs to run around and take the other towers.  I'll give the bulk of the skill to the poor healers who have to run around after splintered groups and tanks who take off, but other than that I don't see any huge amount of skill versus a modern day FPS which has healing and other "rpg" like qualities.  I'm assuming you aren't talking about playing Doom1 or something.</p>

<p><cite>Rick777 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Gratz, you have managed to determine the difference between a fps and a rpg.  With a shooter any player can pick up the game and instantly compete with the best players in the game if they understand the basic gameplay.  An rpg is based on character advancement over time within a complex stat based combat system.  Therefore pvp in an rpg is based on skill, knowledge, and on the combined time and effort you have put into that character up to the point of combat.  If you want to just log on and shoot people I suggest you plug your xbox back in.  Rpg pvp involves designing your character spec and planning before you even step onto the battlefield.  Not just twitch like an fps.</p></blockquote><p>Lol, that's the funniest thing I've heard in a while.  I don't see a very large difference in the skills required to play Battlegrounds for instance and a FPS shooter, especially in the last 10 years when most of them feature things like engineers, medics, heavy armor, etc etc.  It all comes down to mashing the right button at the right time.</p><p>Lets see, log on, play BG's nonstop until I reach level 90 and have a full suit and jewelry of BG fabled gear, then mash buttons.  Oh wait I have to run and capture a flag, I've never seen CTF in a FPS before.  Oh I have to grab a gear and sit there until I die and drop it.  And the clear winner of the Einstein gaming award, half my team needs to take a tower and the other half needs to run around and take the other towers.  I'll give the bulk of the skill to the poor healers who have to run around after splintered groups and tanks who take off, but other than that I don't see any huge amount of skill versus a modern day FPS which has healing and other "rpg" like qualities.  I'm assuming you aren't talking about playing Doom1 or something.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, these kinds of horrible players who have no idea how the underlying game mechanics work can perform passably in a team enviornment if they can follow simple instructions and the other players on their team are able to make up for them.</p><p>Any min/max gamer will stand there and laugh at you though unless you swarm them with similarly worthless noobs.</p><p>Can we stop relating an rpg to an fps just because both involve killing people.  Pointing and clicking on a moving target and watching combat logs are different things.</p><p>No one compares tabletop games to laser tag.</p>

<p><cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rick777 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Taldier@Venekor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Gratz, you have managed to determine the difference between a fps and a rpg.  With a shooter any player can pick up the game and instantly compete with the best players in the game if they understand the basic gameplay.  An rpg is based on character advancement over time within a complex stat based combat system.  Therefore pvp in an rpg is based on skill, knowledge, and on the combined time and effort you have put into that character up to the point of combat.  If you want to just log on and shoot people I suggest you plug your xbox back in.  Rpg pvp involves designing your character spec and planning before you even step onto the battlefield.  Not just twitch like an fps.</p></blockquote><p>Lol, that's the funniest thing I've heard in a while.  I don't see a very large difference in the skills required to play Battlegrounds for instance and a FPS shooter, especially in the last 10 years when most of them feature things like engineers, medics, heavy armor, etc etc.  It all comes down to mashing the right button at the right time.</p><p>Lets see, log on, play BG's nonstop until I reach level 90 and have a full suit and jewelry of BG fabled gear, then mash buttons.  Oh wait I have to run and capture a flag, I've never seen CTF in a FPS before.  Oh I have to grab a gear and sit there until I die and drop it.  And the clear winner of the Einstein gaming award, half my team needs to take a tower and the other half needs to run around and take the other towers.  I'll give the bulk of the skill to the poor healers who have to run around after splintered groups and tanks who take off, but other than that I don't see any huge amount of skill versus a modern day FPS which has healing and other "rpg" like qualities.  I'm assuming you aren't talking about playing Doom1 or something.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, these kinds of horrible players who have no idea how the underlying game mechanics work can perform passably in a team enviornment if they can follow simple instructions and the other players on their team are able to make up for them.</p><p>Any min/max gamer will stand there and laugh at you though unless you swarm them with similarly worthless noobs.</p><p>Can we stop relating an rpg to an fps just because both involve killing people.  Pointing and clicking on a moving target and watching combat logs are different things.</p><p>No one compares tabletop games to laser tag.</p></blockquote><p>I still think you are thinking of FPS from 10 years ago where all you did was choose one gun and run around and shoot people.  Many if not most FPS these days have a lot of RPG elements in them.  Granted the balance still goes to the shooting part, where in Battlegrounds it goes towards the RPG side, but really what rpg is involved?  If you mean "building" the character, sure to a certain extent but it's all cookie cutter anyhow.  There is usually a single AA recipe you can cut and paste right from the forums, you are getting all BG gear so that's just cut and paste anyhow.</p><p>I've played a lot of BGs the past couple of months and consider myself a very good healer, not excellent yet, but getting there.  I don't see that it requires a lot of "rpg" skills at all, but does definitely require a ton of eye hand coordination just like a FPS.  Now raiding, that's a different beast, that requires "rpg" skills, knowing in minute detail exactly what spell to cast at exactly what second depending on fail conditions and relying on your raidmates to also perfectly execute concepts.  But the running around in battlegrounds requires anything other than the rudimentary intelligence to know to pick up the gear, flag or tower.</p><p>With that said I'm not comparing FPS to RPG at all, but at the same time, and no disrespect meant to you and your opinion, I just find it hard to believe Battlegrounds requires any sort of intelligence at all.</p>

<p><cite>Rick777 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I still think you are thinking of FPS from 10 years ago where all you did was choose one gun and run around and shoot people.  Many if not most FPS these days have a lot of RPG elements in them.  Granted the balance still goes to the shooting part, where in Battlegrounds it goes towards the RPG side, but really what rpg is involved?  If you mean "building" the character, sure to a certain extent but it's all cookie cutter anyhow.  There is usually a single AA recipe you can cut and paste right from the forums, you are getting all BG gear so that's just cut and paste anyhow.</p><p>I've played a lot of BGs the past couple of months and consider myself a very good healer, not excellent yet, but getting there.  I don't see that it requires a lot of "rpg" skills at all, but does definitely require a ton of eye hand coordination just like a FPS.  Now raiding, that's a different beast, that requires "rpg" skills, knowing in minute detail exactly what spell to cast at exactly what second depending on fail conditions and relying on your raidmates to also perfectly execute concepts.  But the running around in battlegrounds requires anything other than the rudimentary intelligence to know to pick up the gear, flag or tower.</p><p>With that said I'm not comparing FPS to RPG at all, but at the same time, and no disrespect meant to you and your opinion, I just find it hard to believe Battlegrounds requires any sort of intelligence at all.</p></blockquote><p>It doesnt take much intelligence to win bg's if the other team is equally clueless.  The argument always coming down to us from the pve raiders is that pvp is easy, which is because most people are bad at it, therefore logically most people who you are fighting will be easy to kill.</p><p>If you play an fps against amputees who are nudging the mouse with their foreheads you will find it to be amazingly simple to win every time.</p><p>Just because soe has actively tried to dumb down their pvp into little minigames and set armor, it doesnt mean we should encourage that line of thought.</p><p>Balanced pvp fights between the best pvpers use all the same skill sets as raiding, just with alot more improvisation against living opponents.</p>

<p><cite>Horknut@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>OP, the toon you were on when this happened is Ty- something right?  I was there there the match you were voted AFK, then came back after truancy.  I was one of the ones who voted you.</p><p>The AFK system is set up so that its is NOT POSSIBLE to vote you AFK if you are "participating."  SOE doesn't exactly define "participating" for us, so that the people intentionally doing everything they can to get AFK tokens cannot combat the system.  During most matches I will check the score (when I have time) and vote AFK the people who are CLEARLY not participating.</p><p>If I check the score board and you've put up all zeros halfway through the match, and you don't show on my chat log as just joining the match recently, I'm voting you AFK.  And I usually have enough people with me to make the vote go through.</p><p>Every now and then someone who just joined the raid mod-match might get caught up in the AFK voting sweep.  SOE might have it set right now that if you join a match mid-fight, you can be voted immediately, I'm not sure.  That would be a bug.  But if its set at the regular minute interval, even if you join halfway through, I'll buy that you could arguably zone into a match and it would appear that you do nothing for a minute because you're actually running around turning towers, and haven't seen an enemy.  Which means you might improperly get caught up in an AFK sweep when you join late.</p><p>I don't take a poll to see why people aren't participating.  I don't ask apparent AFKers to fill out a questionaire.  There are far too many AFKers for me to investigate whether you're legitimately "trying".  I vote the people who are putting up ridiculously low numbers (DPS or healing) in the half-second I allot to check the score.</p><p>Had you fulfilled the requirements of not getting kicked for the match, a player would not be able to boot you.  Maybe instead of this ranting post, you should provide a legitimate explaination of why it is that you were able to be booted, and exactly what you did before being voted.  With that information, perhaps SOE can put more criteria in the AFK kicking process.  </p><p>The bigger problem I have is that SOE allowed someone who got booted for truancy back into the same match.  THAT is a bug in the system.</p><p>Finally, complaining about the classes you complained about, and calling them hackers and cheaters is quite simply a lack of understanding of PVP mechanics, and AA and gear as it applies to PVP.  Its making you look foolish.</p></blockquote><p>Actually yes that was me. You make a valid and mature argument here on the forums. Too bad you and your crew dont behave that way in BG. The game was something like 400-300 when i zoned in. I hadnt even made the run from base spawn to center tower to start helping before you decided to start voting me afk. Funny thing is i responded in chat immediately saying [Removed for Content] was your problem i just joined im not afk. You said i dont care get to work. I responded go screw yourself. You and yer buds decided then to use the vote afk as a greif tool. Period. You knew i wasnt AFK. you knew i had literally JUST zoned in. This wasnt an issue of me actually being afk. It was you and yer middle school friends griefing other players because the afk tool allows it. And thats the problem.</p><p>Maybe next time when you do a DPS sweep. Pay attention to a few things. If the game isnt full and the last guy on your team has no stats, he almost definetly JUST zoned in. Shocker right? Logic there FTW. Use that tiny brain of yours to do something other than spam your 4 same macros thinking yer awesome.</p>

<p>I think its clear from your posts that the right choice was made.</p><p>I'd advise you to work quicker from now on.</p><p>Seriously though, your childish bellyaching aside, if people can be voted AFK after less than a minute of joining a match, they should look into fixing that.</p>

<p><cite>cdogw1983 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Not surprisingly BG is becoming populated by griefers, exploiters, and hackers. This is typical behavior of many people attracted by pvp in the first place. Not surprisingly the majority of these types also hail from the nagafen server.</p><p>Tonight for instance i saw multiple speed hackers. a few unkillable wardens and wizards. people with unending power or super mana regen and then the people who use vote afk to grief other players.</p><p>Tonight for instance i joined a smug den group in progress at around 400 pts. Soon as i zone in some guy votes afk me. So i ask whats his deal i just joined. He laughs and starts threatening me. then his buddies join in and vote afk me and ban me givin me a 5 min truancy. When the truancy ends i re que for smug den only to end up in the same game and on the same team. These idiots immediately start tryin to afk vote ban me again just to grief me. luckily the game ended before they could get me again.</p><p>Is there anyway SOE can make it so a player has a longer grace period upon joining games or between finding people to attack so these griefers cant use the afk function to anger and annoy other players?</p><p>Also what is the best way to report explotiers and hackers for cheating?</p><p>Lastly please make it so people cant get on top of the buildings in ganak. it ruins the fun of the game and should be considered exploiting the enviroment.</p></blockquote><p>Welcome to the wonderful nature of PvP. It exists solely to aggravate and make children feel strong while they behave badly.</p><p>Just a hint.. don't PvP. It saves alot of headache. </p>

<p><cite>Horknut@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I think its clear from your posts that the right choice was made.</p><p>I'd advise you to work quicker from now on.</p><p>Seriously though, your childish bellyaching aside, if people can be voted AFK after less than a minute of joining a match, they should look into fixing that.</p></blockquote><p>He's got a point.  It was kind of a <editied> move to do what you did....  He said he just got in zone.  It's obvious you voted him afk to grief his 'smart mouth' after he replied in chat.</p>

<p><cite>MoiraesFate wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Welcome to the wonderful nature of PvP. It exists solely to aggravate and make children feel strong while they behave badly.</p><p>Just a hint.. don't PvP. It saves alot of headache. </p></blockquote><p>Just a hint.. dont defame other players for their choice of ruleset.  It will let you sound less like a pretentious ******.</p><p>Love the people who hate on players from pvp servers when they have people like you on theirs.</p>