<p>I currently have a bruiser and a SK. It was suggested to me, instead of rolling a zerker, I go with a guardian, since I already have 2 "offensive" tanks. I have played with zerkers before, but not guards, and have seen what zerkers are given and are capable of. So my question is this, why roll a guardian? I honestly don't know alot about guardians as I have never played one, or with one. I usually play with zerkers, SKs, or pallies. From what I have seen on the forums, people seem upset with what guards are, and I'd like to hope its not true. So, I'm hoping for a better idea of the guardian class, other then the posts complaining about it.</p>

<p>I think you might find playing a guardian instead of a berserker or SK to be a bit more painful. They're basically identical to Zerkers, but with more defense and less offense (specifically no Berserk to boost your DPS), and less AoE abilities.</p>

<p>Guardians are a nieche tank, we are the best defensive tank, so the things we're best at tanking is the hardest mobs. This means raid mobs. Most heroic mobs can be tanked as well by other fighters, and in TSO with so much AE encounters SKs are the best all around heroic tank.</p><p>If you want to dps with a guardian is quite easy, just go full out offensive with your specc, perhaps get a few bits and pieces of good deffensive gear or adorns but dual wield, put as many AA points into damage upgrades, (like upping the MC, DA, Haste, and base damage of certain CAs in the EoF tree) if you play your class right you'll always outshine those who can't play theirs.</p>

<p>I'm in the same boat as you.  I've decided to make a tank due to the lack of high lvl tanks in the guild though we are already starting to change that.  I started with monk since i have a master tailor and it's soooooo much cheaper to tank when nessesary and just be dps the rest of the time which i'll still stay with, he is so fun to play.  But i've been grouping with 80 monks as main tanks and without really good gear can have a very hard time where when we swap someone over to a plate tank it's smooth as butter.  Mind you I know that monks can do the same thing but will take alot longer to get to that point so i'm going plate.  Starting guard but considering SK for more fun and if I would do better as my playstyle.  Already I can tank anything I gone against as guard so i love it but havn't had to deal with big mobs for aoe control and really miss my feign death when things go bad when soloing.  Overall I belive guards to be stronger "tanks" for taking the heat but i've seen plenty of SK's do just fine so any more input would be awesome.  Again I havn't taken an SK up very far yet so I can't compare out of experience but just want to be able to tank anything even at end game well with developing people in guild but my main will always be my warden for healing, that's my niche so I don't have to be the best tank in the guild or world.</p>

<p><cite>bluephoenix2473 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm in the same boat as you. I've decided to make a tank due to the lack of high lvl tanks in the guild though we are already starting to change that. I started with monk since i have a master tailor and it's soooooo much cheaper to tank when nessesary and just be dps the rest of the time which i'll still stay with, he is so fun to play. But i've been grouping with 80 monks as main tanks and without really good gear can have a very hard time where when we swap someone over to a plate tank it's smooth as butter. Mind you I know that monks can do the same thing but will take alot longer to get to that point so i'm going plate. Starting guard but considering SK for more fun and if I would do better as my playstyle. Already I can tank anything I gone against as guard so i love it but havn't had to deal with big mobs for aoe control and really miss my feign death when things go bad when soloing. Overall I belive guards to be stronger "tanks" for taking the heat but i've seen plenty of SK's do just fine so any more input would be awesome. Again I havn't taken an SK up very far yet so I can't compare out of experience but just want to be able to tank anything even at end game well with developing people in guild but my main will always be my warden for healing, that's my niche so I don't have to be the best tank in the guild or world.</p></blockquote><p>While SK is a very strong class......it requires alot of work to play well and to gear properly.  Based on what ive seen between myself and my SK friend.....Guardian is  easier in that regard.  In my guild we really only have 2 raid capable MT....myself and a SK.  The SK has been playing much longer than I, has his 200AAs,  has spent a LONG time properly gearing himself and learning how to play so he is our MT.   I serve as OT and on specific fights we will swap out.  Usually its on fights where add containment is critical, etc.  The aggro generation and more importantly aggro maintaining of a well geared and played SK is massive and as a Guard rather depressing to watch =P.</p><p>In terms of heroic content......there simply is no comparison....assuming good gear and smart play.....SK is vastly superior for heroic content in every way.  And considering TSO is the current end-game content......it is heavely biased toward the SK 'style' and abilities.  They really do shine in TSO.</p>

<p>Well, from my understanding, Guardians are the ones that are usually raid MTs....can a zerker do it too? Or would I be better off having my SK for heroic stuff, and then a guard that could tank epics/raid content?</p>

<p>All tanks can MT on any raid. It's not a matter of class, but skill, gear, and how good your healers are. The raid scene is predominantly MT'd by Guardians, largely because they've had a historical advantage defensively (and largely because many guardians have been with their guilds for a long time, and it's difficult to replace your MT). That defensive advantage does still exist, but not nearly as pronounced as it used to be.</p>

<p>All current content is just as tankable for a Shadowknight, Paladin, or Guardian of the plate classes. Berzerker is a bit more difficult to heal. I've really not had any issues keeping any Crusader or Guardian alive on content they where geared for, and they really haven't had any aggro issues unlike Guardians currently.</p><p>I honestly never expect a balance to be achieved in this now without extreme hybridization. The simple facts is there are too many classes. 6 fighters was to much when so few where needed. There just isn't enough roles for them to fill. They tried to invent new roles in the Single target aggro/ AE aggro tank changes. But that was a failure from the beginning and was much approvingly scrapped. Because a tank that can hold AE aggro can hold single target and not vice versa.</p><p>Every expansion the fighters have been readjusted always screwing over one or multiple classes in the process. Warriors right now are those two. Guardians having aggro generation issues due to their crippling of their DPS in the GU that accompanied TSO and Zerkers also having some aggro generation issues and low survivability issues.</p><p>I still fully believe that any content from avatars to group is tankable by all fighters. Some just require a more specific group makeup and attentive raid forces to back them up. And generally in a raid force where you stuck between the desire to not overrecruit and have people sit and yet not have so few that on days people can't make it your screwed its just alot easier to take the more flexible tank, which imho atm are crusaders.</p>

<p><cite>Striothia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I still fully believe that any content from avatars to group is tankable by all fighters. Some just require a more specific group makeup and attentive raid forces to back them up. And generally in a raid force where you stuck between the desire to not overrecruit and have people sit and yet not have so few that on days people can't make it your screwed its just alot easier to take the more flexible tank, which imho atm are crusaders.</p></blockquote><p>The thing that SOE and most of the playerbase keeps missing in all the discussions about "balance" is that if its true that any of the 6 fighters are equals and can tank anything.......then by definition that makes the fighter types that offer nothing else but being a tank inferior and put on the bench.   With room for only 1 in group and 2-3 in raids......it becomes a rather full bench.</p><p>Crusaders are now every bit as good and in many cases better at raid MT as Guards.....accept they also get to be the superior TSO isntance tanks.....and for the times they are not MT........they get to contrbute in other ways....DPS, etc.</p><p>IMO instead of forever trying to make every class the same they should be trying to make the classes more diverse.</p><p>While I have no intentions of re-rolling.....that to me would just reward SOEs and their failed archetype class design.....the title of this thread was.."Why Guardian?".........that is a question ide like to know the answer too myself....because I am rapidly running out of reasons.</p>

<p><cite>Raelin@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well, from my understanding, Guardians are the ones that are usually raid MTs....can a zerker do it too? Or would I be better off having my SK for heroic stuff, and then a guard that could tank epics/raid content?</p></blockquote><p>SK is better at everything, don't roll a guardian.</p>

<p><cite>Striothia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>All current content is just as tankable for a Shadowknight, Paladin, or Guardian of the plate classes. Berzerker is a bit more difficult to heal. I've really not had any issues keeping any Crusader or Guardian alive on content they where geared for, and they really haven't had any aggro issues unlike Guardians currently.</p></blockquote><p>The crappy thing is not only do shadowknights own guardians in heroic content, they can raid tank just as well, they are probably the best fighter for killing hard stuff solo (like soloing SoF for BTCs to auction), and they melt faces in PvP.</p><p>Why roll a guardian? Unless you just love guardians, don't. Roll a shadowknight, get the best gear you can from heroic content, make a good name for yourself, and never look back.</p>

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Striothia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>All current content is just as tankable for a Shadowknight, Paladin, or Guardian of the plate classes. Berzerker is a bit more difficult to heal. I've really not had any issues keeping any Crusader or Guardian alive on content they where geared for, and they really haven't had any aggro issues unlike Guardians currently.</p></blockquote><p>The crappy thing is not only do shadowknights own guardians in heroic content, they can raid tank just as well, they are probably the best fighter for killing hard stuff solo (like soloing SoF for BTCs to auction), and they melt faces in PvP.</p><p>Why roll a guardian? Unless you just love guardians, don't. Roll a shadowknight, get the best gear you can from heroic content, make a good name for yourself, and never look back.</p></blockquote><p>Pretty much sums it up.......really given the current state of the game, its mechancis and its current end-game content....anybody wanting to roll a tank class beit for heroic or raiding would be beyond foolish to pick a warrior...especially Guardiann.</p><p>Roll a SK......accept that its a difficult class to master and have fun.</p><p>The rest of us will continue watching and hoping SOE comes to their senses..../shrug</p>

<p><cite>Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Roll a SK......accept that its a difficult class to master and have fun.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not really sold on the difficult part anymore.  It USED to be dificult, now they have several easymode buttons for aggro control, its really quite easy to play.</p>

<p>hey anyone on my name is Jagwar and i have been off the game for a bit(in game name).  i need to no whats been happenning and i will be joining back the game in august.i am a kiera gardian misstmore server and i am in silvermyst. i was wondering if anyone was in that guild or new how they were doing???</p><p><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" /></p>

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Raelin@Mistmoore wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Well, from my understanding, Guardians are the ones that are usually raid MTs....can a zerker do it too? Or would I be better off having my SK for heroic stuff, and then a guard that could tank epics/raid content?</p></blockquote><p>SK is better at everything, don't roll a guardian.</p></blockquote><p>THat is until they get nerfed.  You know it will happen SOE OPs a class then nerfs it.  Always happens.</p>

<p>Ive been a guardian from the start - about 2 mos ago I ran a pally up and hit 80 recently - with 2/3 less gear the pally is a superior instance tank due to massive aoe aggro - when the pally is as geared as the guardain I will prob retire the guard from heroic instances and only raid with him.  I MT for my guild and a raid com on my server - got tired of crusader easy mode tanking so wanted to see if it was true: it is true. </p><p>Crusaders are 2/3 less work than guards, have super easy aggro skills, great AA's.  I love my guardian but currently any warrior that tells you guardians can tank TSO as well as a crusader is whistling dixie (excepting suck ahrse crusaders cuase skill does play a factor).</p><p>If you can tank you can tank easier on a crusader with less than equal gear than a guardian.  Still use the guard for outer guk (hard on a guard but doable under proper conditions) and PoF but once I finish my t2/3 gear on pally these zones are gonna be super easy too.  The easier zones are even much fun to tank on the pally due to massive aoe abilities.  Sure the guard can dual wield and run through them offenseive easy shmeezy but drop holy grounds and spread your aoes and things die super fast.</p>

<p>Unless you plan on being a raid MT there really is no reason to role a guard and even at that unless you are really skilled your going to have a hard time claiming a MT spot.. Theres your answer the rest of what I say could be considered a wine or rant  but so be it...I cringe at the thought of doing a heroic instance with my guard. I hate the fact that guard's and brawlers are the only tanks that can't run in an instance and consistantly pull multiple groups of mobs which has become the standard for tanking instances. If it was player skill that made the difference I could understand but it's not player skill it's simply a bad dev team that doesn't think things out I'm really disapointed with SoE and the way they treat this game. But than again even in vanguard SoE hates the warriors, it seams some one at soe just does not like warriors.</p>

<p>As somebody who has a raid guardian and SK, i do have to agree that SKs are the overpowered class atm without a doubt.</p><p>If you've spent any time as an SK, playing a new guardian will be very very painful. I was soloing blue instances as an SK leveling up, guardians can barely kill a single heroic blue mob, let alone clear entire zones.</p><p>So yeah, SKs are the flavor of this expansion.</p><p>Don't roll a guardian because you have fantasies of being an MT. Less than 1% of guardians are fortunate enough to be MTs, and if you have any shot of it, you're going to be playing your guardian for a long time before you can step into that roll.</p>

<p>Starting a guard now and expecting to ever have a chance at being MT is an futile effort.</p><p>And if raiding isnt your goal then starting a Guard is just plain stupid.</p><p>We are a very singular purpose class in game where only an extreme low % of us get to serve that purpose.</p>

<p>Yes, do not role a new guard, it is only ripe with disapointment.</p>

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>All tanks can MT on any raid. It's not a matter of class, but skill, gear, and how good your healers are. <strong>The raid scene is predominantly MT'd by Guardians</strong>, largely because they've had a historical advantage defensively (and largely because many guardians have been with their guilds for a long time, and it's difficult to replace your MT). That defensive advantage does still exist, but not nearly as pronounced as it used to be.</p></blockquote><p>That used to be the case, but things have started to really change in that regard, particularly over the past 6 months or so. The raiding guilds that still largely stick to Guardians are the mid-tier guilds that don't have other well-geared tanks and healers. Guardians are still brought in for an FTK on a difficult mob, but other than that, it's more and more common that raids these days are MTed by Crusaders, Shadowknights in particular.</p><p>Edit: I would also say that, generally speaking, creating a viable raid tank is the most difficult, time consuming activity in the game, and of all of the plate tanks, the Guardian tops the list in terms of difficulty. You basically have two options, either start your own raid guild with you as the MT, or join an existing raiding guild that's looking for a new MT. In that case, they're going to expect <em>at a minimum</em> that you're mastered, have 180+ AA with your endline TSO AAs, a set of T3 fabled void armor and your mythical. A higher-end raiding guild would expect that you have your T4 fabled with 6-piece bonus (and, of course, would also know the various raid encounters). In other words, if you just have your T2 legendary void armor, fabled epic, expert CAs, and don't have your TSO AA endlines, there's virtually no chance you're going to get anywhere near an MT slot in a raiding guild at this point in the game.</p>

<p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> there's virtually no chance you're going to get anywhere near an MT slot in a raiding guild at this point in the game.</p></blockquote><p>Don't need any caveats.  The only way a guardian is getting at a MT slot in a raiding guild at this point is if he's already a MT in another raid guild.</p><p>Add that, there is little reason to role the class other than MTing, just leave it at, don't bother rolling one.</p><p>If you want to tank, roll a crusader.</p>

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Kordran wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> there's virtually no chance you're going to get anywhere near an MT slot in a raiding guild at this point in the game.</p></blockquote><p>Don't need any caveats.  The only way a guardian is getting at a MT slot in a raiding guild at this point is if he's already a MT in another raid guild.</p><p>Add that, there is little reason to role the class other than MTing, just leave it at, don't bother rolling one.</p><p>If you want to tank, roll a crusader.</p></blockquote><p>Agreed.....sad but true.</p>

<p><cite>Atan@Unrest wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>If you want to tank, roll a crusader. </blockquote><p>Might as well just say Shadowknight. I think there's about three Paladins left who haven't betrayed already.</p>

So making a guard as an alt for instance runs was just plain stupid and i should /delete her as soon as possible and roll an sk?

<p><cite>Airee@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>So making a guard as an alt for instance runs was just plain stupid and i should /delete her as soon as possible and roll an sk?</blockquote><p>Yes.</p><p>If you're looking specifically to create an alt tank to run heroic instances, then the SK is the superior choice hands down. The Guardian would be the worst choice amongst the plate tanks, not because they can't tank, but because they require the most specific group builds for a fast, efficient zone run. An SK can pick a healer, a power regen class and literally any other classes and be good to go at full burn.</p>

<p><cite>Airee@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>So making a guard as an alt for instance runs was just plain stupid and i should /delete her as soon as possible and roll an sk?</blockquote><p>Yes</p><p>In fact there really is no reason to create a new guard for anything.</p><p>The only Guards that are still are considered for raid MT are the ones that have been playing a long time and in a guild that has grandfathered them in.</p><p>As a new player wanting to actually tank in this game today, Guard is the worst choice.</p>

<p><cite>Airee@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>So making a guard as an alt for instance runs was just plain stupid and i should /delete her as soon as possible and roll an sk?</blockquote><p>No you have a chance because you didnt play in the days when the best raid was 18 guardians and 6 healers. (small hyperbole) but you can actually learn the class in its current state. most guards were so fixated on single target fights with thier massive double attack leading the way that they never adjusted to the fixes to the class. If you look at your class weaknesses and search for the abilities that overcome them then you can be a very capable tank. </p><p>A well played tank can do any instance content well. One of the best group I recently had when playing my warlock was with a monk tanking. I got my highest parse in that group 13k and the monk was pulling about 5k and I almost never pulled aggro from him. he knew how to use aggro tools and not just dps. DPS = aggro but there are many other abilities that give significant aggro that arent taunts. Putting a negative status on a mob is aggro too, so Is buffing your groups. Hitting plant at the right time or casting your group mitigation buff can give you a strong boost in aoe aggro. most guardians don't know this and therefore they think any guard telling them that they can hold aggro is lying because the spell doesnt state a specific amount of dmg or hate. Try hitting Reinforcements before your aoe and get a massive aggro boost. instead of placing 8 aa in double attack and 5 in aoe auto attack put 8 in aoe auto attack and 5 in double attack. learn which of your group buffs have a fast reuse timer, you can drop one of these then recast for more aggro. All these things will help your aoe aggro which is the main advantage sk have over guard. </p><p>Guards do lean towards a specialized skillset for raiding but that in no way means that they cannot be an awesome group tank. remember one thing, guardians soak up immense damage and make life alot easier on any healer they are with. DPS is nto that important in a group setting the difference really comes down to 1 or 2 minutes over the span of a zone when 2 equally skilled tanks are involved.</p>

<p><cite>Melina@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Airee@Kithicor wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>So making a guard as an alt for instance runs was just plain stupid and i should /delete her as soon as possible and roll an sk?</blockquote><p>No you have a chance because you didnt play in the days when the best raid was 18 guardians and 6 healers. (small hyperbole) but you can actually learn the class in its current state. most guards were so fixated on single target fights with thier massive double attack leading the way that they never adjusted to the fixes to the class. If you look at your class weaknesses and search for the abilities that overcome them then you can be a very capable tank. </p><p>A well played tank can do any instance content well. One of the best group I recently had when playing my warlock was with a monk tanking. I got my highest parse in that group 13k and the monk was pulling about 5k and I almost never pulled aggro from him. he knew how to use aggro tools and not just dps. DPS = aggr but there are many other abilities that give significant aggro that arent taunts. Putting a negative status on a mob is aggro too, so Is buffing your groups. Hitting plant at the right time or casting your group mitigation buff can give you a strong boost in aoe aggro. most guardians don't know this and therefore they think any guard telling them that they can hold aggro is lying because the spell doesnt state a specific amount of dmg or hate. Try hitting rescue before your aoe and get a massive aggro boost. instead of placing 8 aa in double attack and 5 in aoe auto attack put 8 in aoe auto attack and 5 in double attack. learn which of your group buffs have a fast reuse timer, you can drop one of these then recast for more aggro. All these things will help your aoe aggro which is the main advantage sk have over guard. </p><p>Guards do lean towards a specialized skillset for raiding but that in no way means that they cannot be an awesome group tank. remember one thing, guardians soak up immense damage and make life alot easier on any healer they are with. DPS is nto that important in a group setting the difference really comes down to 1 or 2 minutes over the span of a zone when 2 equally skilled tanks are involved.</p></blockquote><p>Unfortunaly I must diagree with almost every aspect of your reply. I have played my Guardian since release. He has ~15K HP, ~70% avoidance and ~68% mitigation all solo. He has his mythical and a couple of fabled items. He has 200 AA's and has tanked from VP down to duoing stuff with my wife. I am almost compeltely mastered and just using the research assistant to make stuff I never use cause I can.</p><p>I know how to play my class. Now to your points:</p><p>1. When somebody starts is almost irrevelant. I have gone through a dozen changes in EQ2 like everybody else that has been around a while. Start now and your at the bottom. Start next year and your at the top. Start when you start and accept it will change.  Your little comment about 16 Guardians in a raid implies that your an old schooler back when Defense was EVERYTHING. I supported the changes to drop Guardians down about 15 rungs to be back in the pack.</p><p>2. I agree that every fighter can tank an instance well. The problem is that the current game has altered the expectations of the healers and DPS classes. They WANT to full burn and they KNOW that they can with certin fighter classes tanking. Expectation is everything and it defines the 'grade' of the tanking performance.</p><p>As for other abilities to maintain agro, I use every darn thing I have available as a Guardian and still lose agro on groups even with a dirge. Please don't tell me to click my taunts faster. I ask for Time Compression from my Illusionost friend and it still doesn't fix the problem. Also, my Troubador does nothing but cast very significant debuffs at the start of a fight and that almost never gets me over 10 on the hate meter. Ask an SK what deathmarch does for their agro? Oh, your an SK, please tell us...</p><p>Again, it's expectation that other fighters are dealing with and the person at the top defines that expectation and right now it's SK's.</p><p>3. I don't think anybody here would disagree that Guardians are really good tanks. But it's like a car. It can do 120 MPH in 5 seconds flat..... if it only had wheels. If you gave me 1 billion dollars and put me in the middle of the desert, I'm still poor cause they only want water there. If you give me the ability to tank very well, it still means nothing cause the mob has to hit me for me to actually use my tanking ability.</p><p>On that same point, on my Troubador I was in a Mystmyr Manor group with a SK tank. he had less HP, Mitigation and Avoidance than my Guardian. He would run into a room, agro 3-4 groups, bring them to us and the whole time wouldn;t be healed by the healer once. He'd usually be in the orange by then and would do an AoE lifetap and be 100% HP with fixed/locked agro. Fastest instance I ever ran. How would a Guardian compare to that?</p><p>Another example, I was in Befallen HoF with a T1 shard armour SK tank. We were fighting a named and the healer got stunned. The SK said in voice chat "No problem, I'll just life tap and we'll be fine." His health was actually higher when the healer un-stunned than it was beofre. Guardian able to do that?</p><p>Don't base healing requirements on amount of damage taken, it's how much HP the healer has to put back.</p>

<p><cite>Melina@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Hitting plant at the right time or casting your group mitigation buff can give you a strong boost in aoe aggro.</p><p>Try hitting rescue before your aoe and get a massive aggro boost.</p></blockquote><p>Can I have some of what you're smoking?</p>