First mounts... do you guys think that the Travel Song is next...?? Im about 70% into level 29 and am about to pick this as my level 30 training skill... but if it is going to be nerfed, whats the point?? does it give anything besides +20 to speed??

Yes the travelsong may be nerfed, but its still better than nothing right, anyway the reason i took it was because it was an upgrade to Harl's Quickening Euphony. This skill doesn't get upgraded on its own until 38. It increase combat stats by 36 i think and the run speed increase is just a bonus. I don't know how good it is now that they nerfed AGI, but i would still pick it if I had to redo my training.

Jonathans is a great song and I actually would be surprised at this point if they nerfed it. Also... it actually does stack with Harl's. I just tested it with Harl's Kindling Strain. So that increases several of your stats even more plus... then you can play Lucky Break which also stacks. So you can have all 3 on and they all add to your groups damage capabilty/offensive skills. Actually from testing it wont stack the damage capability from Harls and Jonathans driectly i think...but it buffs the stats which in turn buffs the attack stat up some. Then of course Lucky Break stacks fine.I think if they were going to nerf Jonathans or the Warden one which is like tha same thing (the ghost lion one) they would have said something in the post about nerfing horses. Although...with SOE nothing is a given.

<DIV>Probably, but I say that as I'm about to hit 30 in few days =p</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One of the problems with them nerfing it, and it may just be me, but it seems that whenever I am grouped with another scout, regardless of thier level, there pathfinding overwrites mine and wont let me recast until i get out of range, and they swear they didnt bother to upgrade from app1. So I hope they don't nerf it, or they can bloody fix pathfinding so all scouts in group can keep up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>I don't think think they will do anything with the song other then give it to Troubs also.  What they may do though is fix Jboots so they won't stack with pathfinding(the description for jboots says it doesn't stack-but it does).  That would give us self buffed speed of 40 which is now equal to the fastest horses.  I hope they don't, I do not think having self-buffed at 50 is unbalanced or anything.  It is not like it is seloes which was faster then everyone by 2-3 times.  We are talking 10% faster then most peeps that is not unbalanced.</DIV>

<DIV>See the smart thing to do is not call attention to ourselves in this matter.  It's out of combat bonus only, so it's hardly game breaking anyway.  It doesn't stack with sprint.  So let's all do ourselves a favor and just drop the topic.</DIV>

They need to do something about it, right now people are selecting dirge over troub just to get this song, the other 3 training choices at this level do not compare & people are so worried about discussing it that they hesitate to discuss it fearing a nerf. This all indicates that it isn't quite right....its very nice, but its not what a developer wants from their game. They want the choices to be meaningful, troub vs dirge shouldn't be based on one bonus-ability, it should be based on the core role/flavor of the class....the other 3 training choices should have some value that is desireable......people shouldn't be afraid to discuss their skills because they fear a nerf. I suspect they are withholding the training-reset until they address this trait & several other that don't represent meaningful choices.

<blockquote><hr>Jarkun wrote:They need to do something about it, right now people are selecting dirge over troub just to get this song, the other 3 training choices at this level do not compare & people are so worried about discussing it that they hesitate to discuss it fearing a nerf. This all indicates that it isn't quite right....its very nice, but its not what a developer wants from their game. They want the choices to be meaningful, troub vs dirge shouldn't be based on one bonus-ability, it should be based on the core role/flavor of the class....the other 3 training choices should have some value that is desireable......people shouldn't be afraid to discuss their skills because they fear a nerf. I suspect they are withholding the training-reset until they address this trait & several other that don't represent meaningful choices.<hr></blockquote>How exactly is it not right at all to pick a class based upon one skill? Many people choose to play a given class simply for one skill, this skill should not be nerved nor given to Troubadors ever. Out of combat move speed bonus is NOT a game breaking ability and if someone is choosing Dirge over Troub simply for one skill...who cares!? It's thier choice and they should be commended for actually researching the class rather than simply rolling another toon.

The point is a single skill that effects your class-choice should be the one to "put it over the top"....not be such a clear head-and-shoulders better-than-the-rest option that the others options are meaningless. They may leave it in because they have bigger fish to fry...but they have fixed all the "basic" problems with the training skills and have yet to do the reset. I suspect this is because they only want to do the reset once, so they are looking at all other aspects of the training skills, this is one that stands out & must be on the list for consideration. The training skills are intended to be better versions of your existing skills, this one is unique because it also grants a new ability & that ability is significant...heck its faster than pathfinding AND provides buffs, which pathfinding doesn't do.On the plus side people don't seem up in arms about Dirges getting faster runspeed, which was an issue for paladins. The only people that really care are the troubadors and all the Bard-fans from eq1.Now if you chose Dirge because of this one ability...and if the removal of this ability is going to cause you cry "nerf" well...consider yourself warned. They may change it, they may not. But its clear they want people choosing Dirges because they sing mournful melodies....not because they are the fastest class in the game, just read your manual.

What exactly is your agenda Jarkun? Are you a troub or dirge in game? Cause I get the distinct feeling you have a case of class envy. Honestly, if they tweek the training options I hope they do give troubs a similar choice at 30. If that's your goal, I hope you succeed. If you just don't like dirge's having a neat little toy you don't, then I wish a nerf upon you as well.

<DIV>Hi guys,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm a troub and I really hope they don't nerf your speed song(although if we got it I wouldn't complain lol).  I just wish they would give us bards some attention of some sort.  It's getting discouraging.  Anyway, I would love to play a dirge sometime to see how they differ.  I have grouped with them before and it rocks to have one of each in a group.  Just wanted to say that most troubs are not angry that you get the speed song, just the jelous class balancing types.  I personally just like bards in general.  I wish you all the best of luck and will stand behind ya on not getting your song nerfed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Its nice to get a pleasent response like that shadow. To the person who talked about choosing a Dirge over Troub for just this song that is ridiculous. Overall it seems Troubs are better (both broken and need looking into) it is a matter of play style and peoples opinion that 1 skill > then all other reasons to play a class are just skewed. Don't go calling a nerf on us when you have a case of envy.

<DIV>Look, troubs get the big stacking stat bonuses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dirges get the stacking speed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you give stacking speed to troub, you must give stacking buffs to dirges.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then we will all look, fight, and act the [Removed for Content] same. We already share too many abilities. </DIV> <DIV>Only a couple of things set us apart. After the agility nerf, debuffing isnt jack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I want my toon to be distinct from the other class. I dont want cookie cutter bards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats my beef, and Im eating it. TYVM</DIV>

<DIV>imo </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>run speed is too much of a landmark ability to be dirge only.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i want it removed or shared between troubadors and dirges.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>there are problems w/ nerf for both troubs and dirges... but as far as run speed goes it is a share or dump ability. there is no roleplay, no class defining, and no logical explaination to why a dirge would get this over a troubador. dirges are saying.. well this is our only ability that makes us unique, or... we need this to be different...... WHY? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Why run speed? Of course we need to be different, but run speed aint it. i have yet to read a point that I feel is valid reguarding why a dirge would need RUN SPEED specifically as a personal trait over a troubador. A certain debuff I could understand, things like rez I can understand... run speed I don't.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edited to add:</DIV> <DIV>Even a lot of dirges define themselves as out of combat bards, or debuff bards. Why should you get what many bards feel is one of the most awesome buffs in the game, if according to Prima guide and yourselves you are not the prime BUFFER out of the two subclasses?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edited to add again:</DIV> <DIV>I don't mean to imply dirges shouldn't get this ability.. just that is a BARD defining kind of BUFF. Not a CLASS defining buff as there is no logical reason for a dirge to have a class defining thing that is an awesome BUFF. That is not what they are. I want us BOTH to have run speed. But I look at it this way.. we are supposed to be counter parts........ troubadors buff the group, dirges debuff the mob.......... therefore what would make the most sense would be if it was a CLASS defining skill... the Troubador would get an awesome run speed buff.. and the Dirge would get an awesome runspeed mob DEBUFF. That would be lame, which is why it needs to be scrapped as a subclass definer to a bard definer.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by KineticMuse on <span class=date_text>02-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:04 AM</span>

<DIV>Hello, I one starred you. not that I use that much, but just so you know. I did so as you even remotely sugested nerfing was a good idea.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its mostl certain troubadours which are shouting about this, and its mostly them that will get this nerfed.</DIV> <DIV>Having said that if they were gonna nerf this they really should have done it with the patch when they nerfed the other run speeds and allowed a rechoice. Doing so at a later date will just effect more players and get a bigger out cry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do think dirge and troub should have defining abilities, however I don't think there is anything wrong with troubs getting a comparable run speed buff, as it seems fitting for both bard types, and well as rogue types get advances stealth for their party, and preds can move fast with stealth, I don't see faster run speed for the group is outa balance for the bard scout.</DIV> <DIV>However yeah, if thats the case, let us stack stat buffs like troubs, but then I don't think sony are a fan of that either, I think they have trouble stacking buffs correctly right now, and its why they are slow to change some, and why they were slow to get the paladin/sk horse changed.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Jziad on <span class=date_text>02-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:39 AM</span>

<DIV>Ok heres my problem with this guys put in another way...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People who dont play Dirges keep saying  that Dirges are a debuff class. BS</DIV> <DIV>  Some of the debuffs that are worthwhile are shared by troubadors. The one "worthwhile" debuff that is dirge only was nerfed in patch #2 along with the rest of the stuff.</DIV> <DIV>  So even if a Dirge was a debuff class (which is is not), its moot now. Other classes (non bard) have better debuffs and debuffs as a whole got nerfed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is my main abilities now as a dirge ? What sets me apart from my brethren ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> - Buffs ?  - no, troubadors want to keep these for themselves, even though its the bard genre known for its buffs, not just troubadors.  Show me where it says Dirges are not buffers.</DIV> <DIV> - Debuffs ? - ask a healer to debuff, dirge debuffs are just not kicking it anymore. Its a waste of my time. I am a lvl 40 Dirge and they barely get noticed because the other classes put their debuffs on (I play with kickass groups who know their stuff). My groupmates debuff much much better. </DIV> <DIV> - Rezz ? - Healers can rezz, I would rather have mezz, theres a million healers but only a couple hundred illusionists. </DIV> <DIV> - Fear ? -  gimme a break, 10 seconds or 1 hit and its broke. Joke spell.  Takes a concentration slot too.</DIV> <DIV> - Haste ? - oh my I get 15% at max level, I know a person who can buff 70% or more with no bard. Not this for sure</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I am hearing is troubadors coming over saying they want the speed stacking buff, the stat stacking buffs, and dirges should be happy with their one worthwhile Dirge only debuff which was nerfed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please, I'd be more than happy to share run song, but we need somethign to call our own. Debuffs is not that. You have the stacking buffs, what can we get to distinguish ourselves. Maybe you just want troubadors being the only worthwhile bard eh ?</DIV>

<DIV>Meg - I could give you an EQUALLY long list of broken Troubador abilities, both classes are broken and misplaced in the world. We both have certain roles that we're defined to be within, certain ideas SOE had for what we'd do... and neither of us do them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the run song should be shared, and then obviously fixes on both sides. Please believe me when I say that I am not here thinking dirges are so wonderful that everything for them works worderful, etc. I am just a believer that the speed stacking should be a BARD ability. Not a dirge or troubador ability but BARD. Just like Monk/Bruiser get FD, Coercer/Illusionist get Breeze, etc, etc. Same deal I don't see ANYTHING in the Bard spell list from 10-20 that is a "defining" or (semi) "unique" unlike some other classes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So please do not group me in as oh as a Troubador I just want everything and want your class to suck. No. I want us to be fixed, I want your str fixed as much as I want my agility fixed. I think it would be fair if a dirge could stack debuffs and troubadors couldn't, or could stack buffs ALSO. Both of us need fixes to be unique, and as I've said before... a runspeed buff has yet to be presented to me as an ability dirges should have, by their definition, to set them apart.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are all bards, all TRAVELERS, NOMADS....  we sing of our adventures, etc. That is why run speed for both makes sense to me, and doesn't make sense for just one. If the Dirge did NOT get this ability (to stack run) and Troubadors did I would still complain as I am coming from the school of roleplay, and eq1, it is a feature I want in the game for BARDS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So please don't go listing me all your broken abilities and then say.. that because of this runspeed should make you unique. I have broken stuff too. I have some of the same bad debuffs you have, the same bad buffs now because of nerf, the same useless things.. like fear (charm? it barely works, and has a 5 min reuse timer.. it's a mez more than a charm and it's bugged sometimes the mob walks away). Both classes have been royally screwed over by Sony. I am just advocating a Norrath where all bards are masters of travel... all bards can sing and get their voices heard everywhere, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

To be honest Im a bit confused at what a couple of you are whining about. Im a level 40 Dirge also Meg. You basically make it sound like we totally suck and should just go quit and start a Templar or something. Our debuffs are good and I dont care what you say. I play in some pretty kickarse groups as well and 9 times out of 10 most Templars are not debuffing. Yeah they may throw 1 on there or something but they are usually a little more occupised with buffs and healing.Clara's is a great debuff on the whole groups ac's. Then the combination of tarven's and the spell avoidance reduction of Delusory Trill all add up. I usually have Lucky Break, Jonathan's and Harl's on the group at most times. The combination of all this is pretty sizeable. Every group Im in says they love having me because mobs just flat out die faster when Im in the group. The other day i got in a group with 2 guildmates and I replaced a level 40 Brigand. When I got in the group after about 3 fights the tank and healer in the group both almost said at the same time "God what a difference with a Dirge." "[FAAR-NERFED!] I like having a dirge.".One other big thing here that is alwasy something people forget as well....the effectivness of any given class is give or take about 25% based on how good the player is. Lets face it.....some people just are lazy in combat and just suck. I mean for every tank playing MT I group with that is incredible I group with another one that sucks so bad I think I must be able to tank better with my Dirge. (jk)Yeah we have some things I wish worked better (I wish Hyran's worked, I wish Luda's was like 1 sec cast instead of 3, I wish fear lasted 30 sec, I wish Grave's Peace and family were much more powerful to justify using, I wish Bria's was about 300% more effective) but we are far from the gimped trash can babies some of you are making us out to be.The run buff thing? Personally I would not be upset if they gave it to Troubs as well. However I would probably rather see them instead get something else that was maybe equal in usage and unique. I mean we are so [FAAR-NERFED!] close in many things already. Regardless...again...its always different for everyone and never will everyone be happy. But to suggest a nerf first thing is not the way to go.

<DIV>Personally I think this Jonathans speed song should cast fireballs out our bumms destroying everything in sight with one blast on top of its run speed.  Come on, is a run buff a defining trait? I use it over Harls, even tho Harls is essentially a better buff, simply for the run buff but in no way is this a class defining trait.  Ive never once been invited to a party cause the members said, OH WOW, we can run a little faster in the 20 feet from "Mob A" to "Mob B".  Theres so many other broke things within both our classes to even trivialize something like this.  Id gladly want Troubs to have this buff, Id also gladly want a rez that worked, a fear that didnt send mobs into the mystery land of me being stuck in combat, and sub par spells and buffs compared to a list of other jobs.  Practically any aspect of damage, buffing, debuffing, ect, can easily be done better by another job leaving us in its wake.  I guess you can maybe justify it by saying that it leaves us in the middle ground of being usefull at many things, who knows, but it sure feels good to at least run faster then all these other jobs.</DIV>

<DIV>Sigh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont know why I even bother, your not listening. You want to spread out all the cool abilities, at the expense of making us non-unique</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not want cookie cutter classes, and the unique or class defining abilitites we have just are not cutting it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone proclaiming the debuffs to be the answer evidently does not play with a real debuffing class, nor do they play with a regular group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most of the encounters I see get killed so quickly, by the time I finish casting debuffs they are dead. I.E. pointless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The mobs that do last a while get debuffed by the real debuff classes and mine pales in comparison.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stop trying to push the debuffs off on Dirges as class defining and / or  uber. They are neither.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could care less about run buff going to troubs, as long as we can get something that makes us unique and wanted (like the troubadors having stacking buffs). Right now, debuffs are not the answer. If you think they are, you are deluded.  The responses by troubadors are to give us [Removed for Content] and/or pointless abilities in exchange. Get real.</DIV>

<DIV>Meg -</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oooh I understand you now!! Dirges should be the only Bards to get runspeed because it's "cool" Well good lord, my dear why didn't you just SAY SO in the first place <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not saying give dirges [Removed for Content] or broken abilities in exchange for runspeed, I'm saying... Troubadors currently have nothing that even matches run speed, so give it to them in exchange for you having it the past few months. Also, please get yourself a clue (here's $1) when I say that both sides have broken abilities, do you think I don't get killed easily, too? Do you think Troubadors are running around w/ the most awesome debuffs and most awesome buffs that the only thing we're missing is run speed to be the most perfect beings alive, no. And I want run speed for ALL BARDS as an improvement to ALL BARDS not as a downgrade for Dirges. I also advocate that ALL BARDS should have buff stacking and I think it's a gip that Dirges don't especially because some claim their buffs aren't buffing as well as ours, and I see no reason why they shouldn't stack. I see no reasons why debuffs shouldn't stack either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im not trying to push debuffs on Dirges, one second while I get the little book that came with my everquest 2 guide:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dirge:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dirges are singers of angry songs and laments, using the power of cacophony to <STRONG><EM><U>SUBDUE </U></EM></STRONG>their enemies. Their songs of rage inspire fuy of battle in their allies.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Troubador:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Troubadors play music that inspires strength and courage in the hearts of their companions. They lead their allies into the deepest dungeons, raising their spirits with songs of victory.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aside from the definitions being really vague and stupid, that is the only information sony gives them to pick their subclass, but since you're in with being sarcastic and all here is a definition of SUBDUE for you from dictionary.com:</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=subdue" target=_blank>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=subdue</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <OL> <LI>To quiet or bring under control by physical force or persuasion; make tractable. <LI>To make less intense or prominent; tone down</LI></OL> <P>I'm not saying this is what you DO DO, because 3 times now I have attempted to tell you <STRONG>WE BOTH HAVE BROKEN ABILITIES</STRONG>. So please don't cling to your runspeed crying that it's the only thing you get, cuz we aint got much on our side either. We both get buffs and debuffs (stay with me here, please) but in order to make us different SOE intended that ONE OF US be better at BUFFING and one of us be better at DEBUFFING. Just like the Warden/Fury okay? Wardens better at healing, Fury better at DPS (so I hear). Just like other classes too one is DIFFERENT From the other one, okay? Now try to stay with this mental shift here........ the difference between us is not found in runspeed. Because it's the only thing you claim that isn't broken right now doesn't mean it's supposed to be your claim to fame.</P> <P> </P> <P>I've said this three or four times, I'll say it to you one more time Meg......... In my opinion........ runspeed is a bard trait, that bards are known for and that both subclasses should have it. I've said this three or four times, I'll say it to you one more time Meg..... in my opinion .......... both Dirges and Troubadors have broken abilities and share the same struggles. I do not want cookie cutter bards either, I want us to be different it needs to be address however the <STRONG>DIFFERENCE IS NOT RUN SPEED</STRONG>. </P> <P>So please spare me the whining that all your abilities are broken and that the only thing you have in the world to keep you safe at night is your run speed, it aint.</P>

Anybody ask a ranger about this "debate"....they were the fastest class in the game, they get multiple upgrades to pathfinding

<DIV>My opinion (which isn't worth the pos computer I typed it on) is that I think everyone better be ready for a nerf. Of course, it will be called a fix because it was "never meant to stack."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Believe me, I don't want it to be taken away, I don't think it should be taken away, I think it should be a Bard ability, not just Dirge.  I'm just upset at what has happened to the Bard community.  I remember when I created my first Bard, how close we all were because we ALL felt like we were alone in the world.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Putting Troubadors against Dirges is bad for the community, and the more we fight about it, the more likely SOE will "fix" it to shut us up.  If we could have a civilized discussion, things might be different.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But what the heck do I know....</DIV>

<DIV>Firstly all classes should have something to set them apart and make them desirable to play. If you want the run speed buff play a dirge not a troubadour. It should not be on both classes identical is not desirable. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is nice to have therefore I am sure you want it if so role up a dirge. If it gets canned then the dirges will know where to look, is that really what we all want. As we have it and you dont you all cry so we dont have it to>? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are many things that need fixing in this game this is not a fluff spell.</DIV>

<DIV>Ok, my mistake, I overestimated you.</DIV> <DIV>Ill make it simpler to understand for you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-----------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV>Training options get put in game.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Troubs get a buff spell that stacks with their others and it is good. We like</DIV> <DIV>Dirges get a buff spell with a run component. The stat buffs do <U>not </U>stack, but the run speed does. We like. Would have settled for stacking buffs, but troubs say blow me thats mine, ok so we settle for this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Troubs want the run buff that stacks. That would give them a stacking stat buff and a stacking run buff both.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dirges stay the same. We look at troubs in admiration. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now troubadors have the best of both worlds. Why play a Dirge ?  I can go troub and give you everything a dirge can and more. Troubs have debuffs too ya know.</DIV> <DIV>-----------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Statement : you want the run stacking sure, give me the stat stacking. Same principle. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh no, you say stat stacking is Troubador specific, Run stacking is Bard Specific, yet only the nerfed Debuffs are Dirge specific. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I get it.  All training options should be available to troubs, but troubs should not share theirs as well.  Hmmm thats fair.</DIV>

<DIV> <DIV>Meg just so you know... I have nothing against dirges getting stacking buffs at all. I think they should, I think bards should be able to stack buffs. Or debuffs or whatever. I want us to be different and unique. We can do that while having both run speed and both stacking buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's up to SOE to chose what will be different, but I think they made a mistake giving you run speed and not stacking buffs and us stacking buffs and po-dunk pathfinding. There are two ways I think dirges and troubadors CAN be different while having the same basic abilities (ie: RUN SPEED and buff or debuff stacking). I've tried to explain to you many times I feel both of our subclasses are lost, and poorly looked after in the world of Norrath.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The two ways I think we can be made different is:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Making one of us debuff better and one of us buff better. In my opinion given definition I think Dirges should debuff better if sony went this route. Giving them stacking debuffs, special ability debuffs, and obviously.. debuffs that work and aren't crap like they are now. Giving buffs, too (that aren't crap like they are now for both sides). Just balancing out the affectiveness of buffs versus debuffs, if a Troub can add 300str to your party, you should be able to take a comparable amount away from the mob to make the <STRONG>same kind </STRONG>of impact debuffing as you would BUFFING. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If not that... and Sony wants to keep us debuffing and buffing equally then I think we should buff different things. Right now Troubs buff agi (mostly) and then some str and sta and power. That's a lot to buff. If we were going to be defined by what we buffed I'd think Troubs would be buffing power and one stat like agility. And Dirges would be buffing hitpoints (since they deal in hitpoints more than we do) and strength or stamina. We could also be seperate in our TYPE of damage like Wizards and Warlocks are. Troubadors are more mental, and Dirges more noxious. Troubadors w/ group power taps, Dirges with group hitpoint taps. Troubadors could debuff agi/power and Dirges could debuff str/armor class. One of us could have a buff to increase melee damage output (like a haste) and the other could have a buff to increase caster damage output (like +% to spell damage). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Those are ways we could be unique still and share run speed and share buff stacking or non-buff stacking. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not trying to strip the uniqueness out of our classes, I am just trying to get things to be fair and fun. I want to feel like a BARD not a scout with [Removed for Content] buffs. Bards run fast, bards buff awesome, bards I think are the best utility a group can have. I've said SO MANY TIMES and I don't understand why we cannot connect this way... but no I don't want Dirges to be left all [Removed for Content] w/ broken abilities. We're both [Removed for Content]. Buff stacking is what got agi/str nerfed in the first place.... so Troubador buff stacking isn't really that big a deal right now. Things need to be fixed and balanced again. I hope in time. Just when it comes to the run speed issue, and buff stacking if you'd like to bring up that here also, things aren't fair for anyone. Things are so not fair things are getting nerfed and it's becoming way too lame.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I think I would switch to WoW or freak out, to be honest with you if they nerfed Dirge run speed... because I feel deeply it is a Bard ability, and I will always fight to have it shared w/ Troubadors also. They shouldn't have said they'd never add it, then add it to one side at the end as a quick fix for another ability (buff stacking, or what have you) that is nerfed now anyway and should have been universal in the first place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hopefully we can find a middle ground to walk on, Meg. I wish you could understand that I want nothing but the best for both classes, I want us to be fixed. I want us to be unique as BARDS and unique as subclasses also.</DIV></DIV>

don't whine around - we have slightly more run-speed, you have power drain and better buffs.so whats the pointI HOPE SONY DOESN'T GIVE IT TO YOUwhy? it return they would have to give us something you have. And I don't want to be our classes similar. they are much to equal by now, yet.

<DIV>There is no point discussing it we got something he wants therefore any other argument is moot. You buff stats better we buff speed better! Lets aim to get more important things fixed like heh that buff adds like nothing and that debuff is just pretty lights.</DIV>

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> KineticMuse wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>Meg just so you know... I have nothing against dirges getting stacking buffs at all. I think they should, I think bards should be able to stack buffs. Or debuffs or whatever. I want us to be different and unique. We can do that while having both run speed and both stacking buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's up to SOE to chose what will be different, but I think they made a mistake giving you run speed and not stacking buffs and us stacking buffs and po-dunk pathfinding. There are two ways I think dirges and troubadors CAN be different while having the same basic abilities (ie: RUN SPEED and buff or debuff stacking). I've tried to explain to you many times I feel both of our subclasses are lost, and poorly looked after in the world of Norrath.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The two ways I think we can be made different is:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Making one of us debuff better and one of us buff better. In my opinion given definition I think Dirges should debuff better if sony went this route. Giving them stacking debuffs, special ability debuffs, and obviously.. debuffs that work and aren't crap like they are now. Giving buffs, too (that aren't crap like they are now for both sides). Just balancing out the affectiveness of buffs versus debuffs, if a Troub can add 300str to your party, you should be able to take a comparable amount away from the mob to make the <STRONG>same kind </STRONG>of impact debuffing as you would BUFFING. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If not that... and Sony wants to keep us debuffing and buffing equally then I think we should buff different things. Right now Troubs buff agi (mostly) and then some str and sta and power. That's a lot to buff. If we were going to be defined by what we buffed I'd think Troubs would be buffing power and one stat like agility. And Dirges would be buffing hitpoints (since they deal in hitpoints more than we do) and strength or stamina. We could also be seperate in our TYPE of damage like Wizards and Warlocks are. Troubadors are more mental, and Dirges more noxious. Troubadors w/ group power taps, Dirges with group hitpoint taps. Troubadors could debuff agi/power and Dirges could debuff str/armor class. One of us could have a buff to increase melee damage output (like a haste) and the other could have a buff to increase caster damage output (like +% to spell damage). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Those are ways we could be unique still and share run speed and share buff stacking or non-buff stacking. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not trying to strip the uniqueness out of our classes, I am just trying to get things to be fair and fun. I want to feel like a BARD not a scout with [Removed for Content] buffs. Bards run fast, bards buff awesome, bards I think are the best utility a group can have. I've said SO MANY TIMES and I don't understand why we cannot connect this way... but no I don't want Dirges to be left all [Removed for Content] w/ broken abilities. We're both [Removed for Content]. Buff stacking is what got agi/str nerfed in the first place.... so Troubador buff stacking isn't really that big a deal right now. Things need to be fixed and balanced again. I hope in time. Just when it comes to the run speed issue, and buff stacking if you'd like to bring up that here also, things aren't fair for anyone. Things are so not fair things are getting nerfed and it's becoming way too lame.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I think I would switch to WoW or freak out, to be honest with you if they nerfed Dirge run speed... because I feel deeply it is a Bard ability, and I will always fight to have it shared w/ Troubadors also. They shouldn't have said they'd never add it, then add it to one side at the end as a quick fix for another ability (buff stacking, or what have you) that is nerfed now anyway and should have been universal in the first place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hopefully we can find a middle ground to walk on, Meg. I wish you could understand that I want nothing but the best for both classes, I want us to be fixed. I want us to be unique as BARDS and unique as subclasses also.</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>as far as buffs are concerned this is the case, it may not work perfectly but its the case. Troubs buff defense, dirges buff offense skills. Stats wise yes we have one skill that buffs agility, and one melee attack that drains power. Other buffs such as our haste have + str attached to them whereas a troub has + agi.</P> <P>Not all of our attacks are mental, some do resist against disease, some of our self buffs have noxious resistance attached, we can't to my knowledge debuff noxious we debuff metal.</P> <P>several of our other buffs have dps modifiers attached, several troubadour songs are weighted in favour of helping defense.</P> <P>Dirges generally have more debuffs, certainly we debuff some things Troubs can't but then they can effect mobs in ways we can't. If we were focused more on debuffs then they'd have to improve our debuffs alot more than the buffs and reduce power cost, if you buffed str for 300, we'd have to debuff a mob for more than 300. why?</P> <P>because buffs last 10 mins and are cast outside of combat.</P> <P>debuffs can last 10mins, but rarely do as the mob(s) die, they are also only cast when in combat meaning it drains straight from our power pool that encounter leaving us less for any other form of attack.</P> <P>Debuffs that use concentration, which is most of ours, are best used early on a multiple mob encounter, or on a tough monster where the fight will last a certain amount of time.</P> <P>On most encounters where there are only 2 or 3 blue mobs, then buffs see alot more bang for buck than most debuffs do, as while they may on paper last 10 mins, they mob is 40% dead by the time a debuff lands on lower level mobs, its often just a waste of power in these circumstances.</P> <P>When you are applying two debuffs, the first one mob is often nearly dead, and thats without swinging a sword yet...</P> <P>So debuffs, particularly the type you use, are situational, a class couldnt be based soley around this aspect without making those debuffs alot stronger.<BR></P> <P>stacking debuffs would be interesting, but you'd still need time in battle to do that, you don't need that time in a fight to stack buffs... and you have to be careful a class doesn't debuff to the extent that it makes an encounter.. especially a named/raid encounter trivial, or you get to the point where they base encounters around that debuff alone.... i.e eq1 shaman slow.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Jziad on <span class=date_text>02-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:35 AM</span>

<DIV>As a troubadour, I certainly am happy with our stacking stat buff for training at level 30. I see this being on par at least with the dirge run speed song in terms of usefulness. Both are unique and distinct.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In my opinion, I'd like to see our two classes remain differentiated. I try not too look over other classes shoulders and say, 'Hey that looks cool, I want that too!'. I think a lot of ex-EQ players are upset because bards in EQ2 don't really have a Selo's equivalent as a standard ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But as a poster mentionned before, neither skill is earth shattering, especially if the run speed does not work in combat. And honestly, given the choice between the two I'd take a stacking stat buff over run speed myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Although, I am a bit upset that my pathfinding, whihc I upgraded to Adept3, doesn't seem to scale up in speed over levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I say hooray for uniqueness. And no doubt it'll be a great group that has both rhe dirge for run speed and the troubadour for stacking stat buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>