<DIV>I completely understand and agree with the need to revamp the "control" spells/arts of the game to non-trivalize heroic encounters for groups and to give some sort of balance to Coercers/Illusionists.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, what about Troubadors?   Have they been forgotten and fallen through the crack in this revamp?  Currently, Troubadors have some crowd control, but enchanters have better.  Even so, LU24 will change that so Troubadors have almost no crowd control at all?  A 20 sec mez with a 20 sec refresh and a 8 second charm?  What's the point?  For mez, resists and any broken mez will just about negate its usefullness and I'm not even going to talk about an 8 second charm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, if crowd control is taken away from a Troubador, what do Troubadors have?  It's not dps.  Troubadors have lower dps than all other scouts, non-enchanter mages, and most fighters.  Maybe Troubador damage is on par with enchanter damage, maybe its a tad more, I don't know.  Either way it's pretty minimal and certainly not an asset to a group.  Nobody invites a Troubador to a group for thier dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Buffs?  Enchanters have better power regen and haste.  Sure, troubadors have a lot of group buffs and probably have more versatility in that respect to enchanters, but nothing that has as much game impact to justify the removal of Troubador crowd control.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what exactly are Troubadors supposed to do in groups post LU24?   I look at the Troubador forum on these boards, and there are a ton of posts discussing LU24 in a lot more detail than this one.  Many are just begging for some Dev response that LU24 has been thought out for the Troubador class.  Troubadors are asking for some sort of justification, any justification, but there is no response.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I made this post not as a complaint, or whine, or Sony bash.  It's just that LU24 is going to have such a severe impact on Troubadors that it doesn't just change the game for many Troubadors, it ruins the game.</DIV>

<DIV>If we keep being nice maybe we'll get another bad joke from the devs instead of anything useful. :smileysurprised:</DIV>

I play a Dirge myself, but if I was in a group with a lot of mages I would want a Troubador for their spell DPS increases. Dirges increase the DPS of weapons but Troubadors increase the DPS of spells so I'm sure they would find a good spot in Raid groups.

Adapt. Find new things to bring to a group. I have never brought a troub to ANY of my groups for crowd control. The end isn't here, you'll do fine.

Might as well say 'Bards'. In my mind, dirges are in the same boat, even if the specifics are slightly different.

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DanaDark wrote:<BR> Adapt. Find new things to bring to a group. I have never brought a troub to ANY of my groups for crowd control. The end isn't here, you'll do fine.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You never will now I guess.</P> <P>Good for a mage group? How often does that happen outside of raiding? At my level I can buff there "to hit with spell" chance, I can add a spell proc, and mana regen. Upping there casting schools is useless. Mana regen everyone benefits from that.</P> <P>I guess the group detaunt could go in there too, but I'm usually with a good tank so I never use it...</P>

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenoy wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DanaDark wrote:<BR> Adapt. Find new things to bring to a group. I have never brought a troub to ANY of my groups for crowd control. The end isn't here, you'll do fine.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You never will now I guess.</P> <P>Good for a mage group? How often does that happen outside of raiding? At my level I can buff there "to hit with spell" chance, I can add a spell proc, and mana regen. Upping there casting schools is useless. Mana regen everyone benefits from that.</P> <P>I guess the group detaunt could go in there too, but I'm usually with a good tank so I never use it...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I <3 troubs... seriously... I try to save a spot for when I see one lfg. Iono, I like em. Personally, I get REALLY annoyed when they do the charm thing... scares me... lol.</P> <P>Overall, I will always be grabbing a troub when I can!</P>

<DIV>Well in my opinion if they take they should give back. take the crowd control and give back some frekin dps. i am tired of getting out dps's by a healer</DIV>

LOL Dana that's because you're not high enough level to group with a Troubador for their crowd control - the charm spell is not the "crowd control" most troubadors are talking about...the charm is more a soloing tactic.

I agree with you troubs, and dirges. I hope you get some love next. I don't see any reason your mez should have been nerfed. I know nothing about the charm so I won't comment on that. Still, having other classes have a viable mez besides enchanter was just fine the way it was IMO. Never had a bard try to usurp that duty from me (only wizards try to do that for some reason).Good luck trying to get some dev attention.<div></div>

Troubador class defining skill....Mez/charm...long ago speed.Well without that class defining skill...how about giving us back the OTHER class skill. Were we supposed to be able to run fast? 34% is a slap in the face to a troubador.So 3 class defining skills gone. hmm now what.Defined by mediocrity? No class skills.Moose

<P>Unfortunately the track record is not good here.  Guardians lost a lot in LU13 compared to how other classes tank yet never saw any increase in DPS to bring them in line with other fighters.   If you love to tank, it's still a good class but you know you are getting the shaft on dps.  So, wishing for troubs with diminished crowd control post-LU24 to get a significant boost is just that, wishing.  SOE dev's feel like they have a slippery slope situation with class dps and appear to be cemented in that position for over a year now.  I think they have taken that line of reasoning a quite a bit too far. </P> <P>Giving Troubs <FONT color=#993366>poison</FONT> would not break the game.  They will still lack the big CA damage and AOE carnage of the Brig/Swash types and the burst damage of Assassins and Rangers.  Procing changes in the previous update already put a big dent in Troub DPS.  There's no good reason not to let Troubs and Dirge's have poison after this patch diminishes Bard playability further. </P> <P> </P>

Nice to know you still love me even when I do the charm thing, Evalyn <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I'm not too worried about the update, I do think that troubs could do with a little bit of a DPS upgrade but I don't see it as ruining a troubador. I love my troub, not gonna give her up just cause she gets just one facet nerfed.- Tiffia, Troubador of Mistmoore, Senator of Silence- Ashafia, Fury of Mistmoore- Melifia, Conjuror of Mistmoore<div></div>

<blockquote><hr>DanaDark wrote:<div></div>Adapt. Find new things to bring to a group. I have never brought a troub to ANY of my groups for crowd control. The end isn't here, you'll do fine.<hr></blockquote>Amen brotha<div></div>

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bong_water wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DanaDark wrote:<BR> Adapt. Find new things to bring to a group. I have never brought a troub to ANY of my groups for crowd control. The end isn't here, you'll do fine.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Amen brotha<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Power regen ftw.

Troubadors were not forgotten in LU24, hence the many and ongoing changes to charm being tested on the test server. Also, what is visible on the test server is often one week behind what is being tested internally. There are already more changes that will show up on the test server that reflect decisions based on the data collected from the previously tested version (and not the non-tested message board reactions to each change).The charm originally was an expensive mesmerization that would hold an enemy for an extended duration and their only action would be to follow the Troubador.  Through other changes to the spell system, the charm allowed the creature to attack enemies, even though there wasn't an attack command ever allowed for the pet. Effectively, it became close to a 1 concentration cost charm available to a scout class. The new changes reflect that it is now a short duration charm that a Troubador can use to effectively remove a creature from combat and use their damage to the Troubador's short-term advantage. It won't be until next week when you can see the latest changes that were made to it on the test server.Control abilities across all classes were evaluated. After these changes, Troubadors are the only non-Enchanter class that can use mesmerize to lock down a creature. It's certainly less than what they could do before, but how powerful it was before in locking up to 4 creatures had to be evaluated like all other classes and did not have a place to be so powerful in the broader control changes. I've taken precautions that Troubadors can still solo even level solo creatures and solo encounters with handcrafted gear and apprentice III spells.I know this is not the response that some of you want to hear, but it is the direction that these two spells are being changed.

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lockeye wrote:<BR>Troubadors were not forgotten in LU24, hence the many and ongoing changes to charm being tested on the test server. Also, what is visible on the test server is often one week behind what is being tested internally. There are already more changes that will show up on the test server that reflect decisions based on the data collected from the previously tested version (and not the non-tested message board reactions to each change).<BR><BR>The charm originally was an expensive mesmerization that would hold an enemy for an extended duration and their only action would be to follow the Troubador.  Through other changes to the spell system, the charm allowed the creature to attack enemies, even though there wasn't an attack command ever allowed for the pet. Effectively, it became close to a 1 concentration cost charm available to a scout class. The new changes reflect that it is now a short duration charm that a Troubador can use to effectively remove a creature from combat and use their damage to the Troubador's short-term advantage. It won't be until next week when you can see the latest changes that were made to it on the test server.<BR><BR>Control abilities across all classes were evaluated. After these changes, Troubadors are the only non-Enchanter class that can use mesmerize to lock down a creature. It's certainly less than what they could do before, but how powerful it was before in locking up to 4 creatures had to be evaluated like all other classes and did not have a place to be so powerful in the broader control changes. I've taken precautions that Troubadors can still solo even level solo creatures and solo encounters with handcrafted gear and apprentice III spells.<BR><BR>I know this is not the response that some of you want to hear, but it is the direction that these two spells are being changed.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>yes, its not really what we want to hear, but good to hear atleast something, the main point of the troubadours is that reducing our crowd control abilites takes out a good portion of activity when fighting. whcih is risky because it can lead to a boring gameplay.</P> <P>i know it might be a little off topic but are there any news about bard usable instruments yet? me and lots of other bards would really like to see them sometime ingame.</P>

Basically you are continuing to turn both Troub and Dirge into a buff bot that has very limited dps.Our buffs on both sides of the bard tree continue to become very ineffective at high content levels and even now at the strong group level, due to ease of a player to hit physical stat caps (str/agi/sta). Also it is very easy to get equipment that takes parry/defence to +5 levels before tank classes add there class spells and so the defence buffs become almost useless.  Something needs to be done with the bard, seeing as nothing has ever been done in 24 updates.

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:Troubadors were not forgotten in LU24, hence the many and ongoing changes to charm being tested on the test server. Also, what is visible on the test server is often one week behind what is being tested internally. There are already more changes that will show up on the test server that reflect decisions based on the data collected from the previously tested version (and not the non-tested message board reactions to each change).The charm originally was an expensive mesmerization that would hold an enemy for an extended duration and their only action would be to follow the Troubador.  Through other changes to the spell system, the charm allowed the creature to attack enemies, even though there wasn't an attack command ever allowed for the pet. Effectively, it became close to a 1 concentration cost charm available to a scout class. The new changes reflect that it is now a short duration charm that a Troubador can use to effectively remove a creature from combat and use their damage to the Troubador's short-term advantage. It won't be until next week when you can see the latest changes that were made to it on the test server.Control abilities across all classes were evaluated. After these changes, Troubadors are the only non-Enchanter class that can use mesmerize to lock down a creature. It's certainly less than what they could do before, but how powerful it was before in locking up to 4 creatures had to be evaluated like all other classes and did not have a place to be so powerful in the broader control changes. I've taken precautions that Troubadors can still solo even level solo creatures and solo encounters with handcrafted gear and apprentice III spells.I know this is not the response that some of you want to hear, but it is the direction that these two spells are being changed.<hr></blockquote>No it isn't what any of us wanted to hear but it's something. Now what are you giving us in return for these 'changes' (trying to be nice), only things i have seen are 1) redunced the duration on stifle and 2) increased the dmg on the Essence line (forgive me if i dont' kiss your feet for that one).</div><p>Message Edited by kerel on <span class=date_text>05-26-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:41 PM</span>

<P>Well Jared,</P> <P>I still think it's sad that you penalize an underpowered class based on a few rarely used circumstances, yet you allow dps classes their insane damage for a other circumstances.  Mez in its other state is not overpowered.  </P> <P>If you're so hard for balance, how about letting bards be the only buffers, maybe one other class could have some buffs to throw in.  I mean, hell, it's only fair, right?</P> <P>Use your brilliant toons to discern which classes are the least played and think about the reasons of that data.  It is NOT a coincidence.  You and your cronies have made this class into an autofollow buff-bot. PERIOD</P> <P>With the best skills, equipment and tactics, we're just marginally better than your "handcrafted gear, app3 test subject" and our groups as well.  This is due to lack of thought and the creation of a mostly passive support class.  It's not FUN for your subscribers and it was not chosen by the vast majority (remember we're on the second full "rebalance" now).</P> <P>Fix your vision or lose a subclass.</P>

<P>Like many others I agree that Lockeye's post isn't what I wanted to hear... but at the same time I'll chime and and say thanks, that, yes, at least we did hear something.</P> <P>I'd say a good 50% of the griping on this board has been to the blanket silence accompnaything these changes and the complete lack of dev response to our protests...</P> <P>So again, thanks for the response.</P>

<P>Thanks for finally acknowledging us.  But you haven't exactly answered the question that most of us are so concerned with... we get it... you made changes... you think our mezz was overpowered (I'd have to disagree but that's not the point).  What we are really asking, and where the "silence" is frustrating is <EM>where is the troubador class going??</EM>... is this it? Because if so it's pretty dull...  <EM>What does the future bard in EQ2 look like and what will (s)he do?</EM>  That is what we'd like to know. Because if you're taking some of our favorite utility away and replacing it with nothing... then a person would have to be crazy (or not yet 50 prior to LU24) to do anything but raid with their high level troubador...</P> <P>Please.. give us some CLUE that we will have a direction, even if it's new, even if we don't think we'll like it... just don't leave us in the pathetic state it seems we are going to be left in.</P> <P>Again, it was nice to be acknowledged and I thank you for that. We now know that you know that we're upset at the very least.</P>

<DIV>Hollow words.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for stopping by.</DIV>

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Lockeye wrote:<BR>Troubadors were not forgotten in LU24, hence the many and ongoing changes to charm being tested on the test server. Also, what is visible on the test server is often one week behind what is being tested internally. <FONT color=#ff0000>There are already more changes that will show up on the test server that reflect decisions based on the data collected from the previously tested version (and not the non-tested message board reactions to each change)</FONT>.</P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>That's the only part worth reading really. I wonder how we'll be compensated for a reduction of 98% on one skill and 75% on another.<BR></FONT><BR>The charm originally was an expensive mesmerization that would hold an enemy for an extended duration and their only action would be to follow the Troubador.  Through other changes to the spell system, the charm allowed the creature to attack enemies, even though there wasn't an attack command ever allowed for the pet. Effectively, it became close to a 1 concentration cost charm available to a scout class. The new changes reflect that it is now a short duration charm that a Troubador can use to <FONT color=#ff0000>effectively remove a creature from combat and use their damage to the Troubador's short-term advantage</FONT>. It won't be until next week when you can see the latest changes that were made to it on the test server.</P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>Unless you increase drastically the duration, I'd replace "effectively" with "barely".</FONT><BR><BR>Control abilities across all classes were evaluated. After these changes, Troubadors are the only non-Enchanter class that can use mesmerize to lock down a creature. It's certainly less than what they could do before, but how powerful it was before in locking up to 4 creatures had to be evaluated like all other classes and did not have a place to be so powerful in the broader control changes. I've taken precautions that Troubadors can still solo even level solo creatures and solo encounters with handcrafted gear and apprentice III spells.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>I know this is not the response that some of you want to hear, but it is the direction that these two spells are being changed.</FONT><BR><BR><FONT color=#33ccff>Atleast you know that we don't like the change. If you could give us some good news eventually it would be neat.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>

<DIV>So we'll get an uber 16-second charm instead then? Seriously, a 8s encounter or aoe-mez would be more usefull. Well time will tell, I dont hold much hope to what or what not this in-house tested new charm will be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>What bothers me is the Mez change. </STRONG>Sure we could lock down 4 encounters. But did you ever try to lock down 4 encounters as a troub yourself? In a high stress situation with red health and 10% power left? Our mez where a good one, but nowhere near the power of a true chanter mezing. Even with 1 add locked down and someone accidentaly (or just due to pure ignorance) breaking a mez is 10s for the next. Thats most likely a dead healer and dps. With 20s? Its now effectivly a getto-mez, fire it and hope it sticks, its your only chance. Resist or break and you've just wasted power and time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you just want us to mez one creature, why not make it a toggled spell? 20s duration, instant recast on break. Would make much more sense, and make it so much more usefull when a group struggles and makes mistakes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At least I'm in fabled gear with fabled spells at level 70 where I can just tag along whatever tank goes to farm something. I most certainly can't farm any named in SoS. This nerf round aimed totally wrong and hit the one of the weakest solo class where it hurst most. I feel truly sorry for the bards currently doing the level and item treadmill. Its going to be a constant uphill struggle for them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, thanks for commenting, it was the expected response and confirms that someone just doesnt understand the Troubadour class at all.</DIV>

<div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Lockeye wrote:Troubadors were not forgotten in LU24, hence the many and ongoing changes to charm being tested on the test server. Also, what is visible on the test server is often one week behind what is being tested internally. There are already more changes that will show up on the test server that reflect decisions based on the data collected from the previously tested version (and not the non-tested message board reactions to each change).<font color="#ffff66">Then how about throwing us a bone and mentioning some of these changes? We might be able to live with the changes if you gave us something in return but all we're seeing at the moment is the gutting of our class. I know that whenever big changes are implemented you get people being overly dramatic and threatening to quit the game but atm amongst Troubs there are a number of players <b>seriously</b> questioning the point of their class. </font>The charm originally was an expensive mesmerization that would hold an enemy for an extended duration and their only action would be to follow the Troubador.  Through other changes to the spell system, the charm allowed the creature to attack enemies, even though there wasn't an attack command ever allowed for the pet. Effectively, it became close to a 1 concentration cost charm available to a scout class. The new changes reflect that it is now a short duration charm that a Troubador can use to effectively remove a creature from combat and use their damage to the Troubador's short-term advantage. It won't be until next week when you can see the latest changes that were made to it on the test server.<font color="#ffff66">This is the prime example of what is driving all the angst about these changes. Instead of the "wait until next week" why can't you give us some information. I know you don't want to be locked into changes that might not go live but give us something, anything. You don't have to give us exact data but an explanation of the direction you plan on taking the class would be appreciated. What you've just written there hints that maybe you're reevaluating the 8 sec charm but I could also just be reading too much into it. Thats been the problem with this. </font><font color="#ffff66">Atm, the only thing we can be sure about is that our abilities are going to get seriously nerfed. It's better to look forward to something than to spend the same time dreading</font><font color="#ffff66"> whats going to happen. The only person who has the power to do that is you Lockeye. Give us something to feel happy about. These changes following right on from the changes to spell procs (which appeared to benefit everyone except the class with the spell proc buff, ie Troubs) have left us feeling a little beat up and abused </font>Control abilities across all classes were evaluated. After these changes, Troubadors are the only non-Enchanter class that can use mesmerize to lock down a creature. It's certainly less than what they could do before, but how powerful it was before in locking up to 4 creatures had to be evaluated like all other classes and did not have a place to be so powerful in the broader control changes. I've taken precautions that Troubadors can still solo even level solo creatures and solo encounters with handcrafted gear and apprentice III spells.<font color="#ffff66">Unless a change to mez recast is part of the "one week ahead" changes we won't be able to lock down anything with it. 20 sec duration with 20 sec recast, unless you remove casting time and recovery there is going to be a period of 2 secs where the mob is free. Thats <b>not</b> locked down. Thats also assuming no resists.I can't say I ever managed to lock down 4 mobs at once. It only became possible with the increased duration of Reverie and thats only assuming you got no resists on the spell and the mobs are all nicely seperated so you can actually pick your target and see which one needs mez refreshed. Typically if you're in the situation where you need to mez 4 mobs at once they're all going to be stacked on top of the group. Thats also assuming the group is going to just stand back and single target dps while you slowly work your way through each mob. No AoE dots or out of encounter AoE's, like that ever happens</font>I know this is not the response that some of you want to hear, but it is the direction that these two spells are being changed.<font color="#ffff66">I'll reiterate. We've got no choice but to accept the changes</font>. <font color="#ffff66">You've made it abundantly clear that SOE believes this is in the best interest of the game despite most of your player base questioning the need for the change.</font><font color="#ffff66"></font><font color="#ffff66">Now how about giving us something to be happy about instead of yet another week of being kept in the dark?</font><hr></blockquote></div>

<DIV>/melodramatic faint </DIV> <DIV>First post of a dev in the trouby forums for more than half a year ! *cheers!*</DIV> <DIV>Where we can solo a even con no arrow mob and almost die other classes 2 shot them and can chainpull . Some can even solo blue heroics with ease . Lockeye , dont you think the difference is too harsh ?</DIV>

Current build on test have Reverie 1.5s cast, 24s duration and 20s recast.

<div><blockquote><hr>Narben Von Nacht wrote:<div><blockquote><hr><font color="#ffff66">I can't say I ever managed to lock down 4 mobs at once. It only became possible with the increased duration of Reverie and thats only assuming you got no resists on the spell and the mobs are all nicely seperated so you can actually pick your target and see which one needs mez refreshed.</font><hr></blockquote></div><hr></blockquote>Only time I've seen this done is in the ring event in Blackscale when no enchanters are available.  It's then actually only three to contain, and typically there're several breaks from resists or refreshing the wrong one.  Then it can get fun as the troub's trying to remez one mob while the other timers are running out, the group's on another mob or at least doesn't want to engage these and the mobs're all looking at the troubador with his low avoidance.  Locking them down's not really the phrase I'd use..It's almost boring with a chanter but with most variations of these changes that'll be the only option beyond just letting the mobs beat on the tank until all four are up.  Not really a problem for those already geared up, but that's how most changes work out.</div>

<P>Hi guys, I'm at bit of a loss as to understand why troubs should have their CC reduced?..... As I understand it if the control element of the game is to become relevant why should only 2 classes be able to fill that role? </P> <P>We have plenty of damage and healing classes for example, not just two. </P><p>Message Edited by ximo on <span class=date_text>05-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:48 PM</span>