So we do like 100more overall dps then a wiz in a grp who cares? I mean how many poeple play his game looking at the dps parses seeing who's on the top of dps at each encounter not many.  People dont play this game just to do more dps then another class poeple play this game to have fun.  I grped with many wizs and other dps and we never compare our dps with one another because no one cares we just want to xp and have fun.  I never understand the reasoning for nerfs as we play these toons the same way for months and then soe just brings a nerf out of nowhere.  I have all my 50+ toons getting nerfed pretty badly besides monk as he is and will always be the best class in the game imo since he doesnt do outstanding dps and is useless in raids so soe leaves him alone.  <div></div>

<DIV>Class balance has a direct effect on people's game experience. There's a large base of raiding guilds that often select people for raids based on damage and utility. When the balance is off, people get excluded.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some people do build groups based on knowledge of which classes are the best. Players can find it much more difficult to find groups if they are known as an under-performing class. You'd be surprised how often this happens. My other half is a Wizard of about the same level as me. He sat for over an hour once trying to find a group without luck and was [Removed for Content] that I logged on and got a team within 10 minutes while he was still looking. This really dos happen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Questing ability is also key in this game. When some classes can do quests solo, they don't have the hassles of finding groups of people who are doing the same quests. For those who can't solo so well, it can be extremely frustrating not getting to complete quests - especially those not in guild or in smaller guilds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are all sorts of ways in which class balance can directly affect players' game experience. These are just a few examples. It is an important element of any MMORPG and SoE does it extremely well on the whole. They have excellent reports from their database that show them exactly what damage levels classes are doing, taking into account upgrade level, effect of others in the team etc etc. When SoE say we're doing too much damage, you can be pretty sure that we are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another element that SoE are trying to close down on is the soloing of content that is designed for groups. MMORPGs are (and should be) group oriented games. When content intended for groups is being soloed by several classes, that reduces the overall content bias leaving less content that is seen as real group content. When this happens you find that people begin to solo or duo much more and the prime function of the game begins to be side-lined. So SoE will try to rebalance this to make sure that the game is fulfilling its design goals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the case of this update, they're reducing the solo ability of a lot of classes to redress the solo/group content bias.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can't always balance upwards. The reason for this is that if all classes are improved to be the level that the overpowered class is... then the player/mob balance is out of whack. Economically, it's way too time-consuming and expensive to have to alter the attributes of all mobs in order to balance it with player power if you constantly balance upwards. Most of the time, it is much more sensible to nerf some classes (or elements of a class) to achieve balance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SoE must maintain change and development in the game in order to keep subscribers and give players a sense of development. Adding abilities, new spells/CAs etc and new content is the main way of doing this. It's always difficult to predict exactly what the effect of such very positive change on balance and content bias. So they track the effects and sometimes nerf afterwards to bring the changes back down to the right levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A game without nerfs would be a static and essentially boring game with little new content or character development elements. A game with all class boosts and no nerfs would be a game with very slow development cycles and little new content and development as a result.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are good reasons for these nerfs, whether you understand them or not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>X</DIV><p>Message Edited by XtremSummons on <span class=date_text>05-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:08 AM</span>

Xtrem,     Well written post but I am going to have to disagree with you in several areas, starting with quests.  Every player who has started a Wizard in nearly every MMO known to man should know that fragility goes with the power they can dish out.  Wizards have to group to do anything significant and nerfing summoners is not going to help Wizards solo any better than they can now.  We went through this same thing in the original EQ to the point where no one wanted a summoner in the group but their soloing capability had been so crippled because of the constant whining that they could no longer do that effectively - which btw is usually why people choose a pet class anyway.  As far as guilds who recruit and raid based on "maximization" no one wins in this situation.  There will ALWAYS be an odd class out.  It is inevitable because it is impossible to achieve "perfect" class balance.  Someone has to be lowest and they will be the odd man out.  And anyway, if that's the kind of guild you want to hang with, you can have them - they are not about inclusivity and fun in my opinion.As far as nerfs go, of course you are going to have nerfs over time to every class.  However in this case the whole Wizards vs Summoners is so Deja Vu to be scary.  I personally don't want to be in a situation again in which I am left as an underpowered mage with a worthless pet.  Which is precisely what happened in EQ for quite a long time.  By the time SOE got around to addressing the situation again I had put my level 54 magician to rest and moved on to another game.  If this is really about DPS, which the post says, why not just up Wizards DPS again and be done with it?  I understand your point about not balancing upwards as it can skew the game, but since Wizards are supposed to be the top of the hill in DPS anyway, a slight boost is not going to break things.  Additionally, SOE tends not to be shy in taking away but very conservative about giving back.  I have a bad feeling about this one./shudders<div></div>

I disagree with you xterm. First I want to say im came from eqoa and in that game soe only nerfed one class and that was decreasing nercos pet hp slightly.  In eqoa almost all classes were very powerful i could solo dagons that require many ppl to kill on my 60geomancer forever and noone whined about it that was just one of there advanatges being good soloers.  Same for this game in a way summoners have pets and are like a whole grp within themselves so they should be the best soloers. Its true that raid guilds choose poeple for there dps and utility however most classes offer something to raid that another doesnt.   No classes are really the best in this game that all have there advantages and disadvantages.  Sometimes its hard to find groups for certain classes yet that doesnt mean your class isnt balanced.  It takes me 3hours sometimes to find grps for my summoners and brig.  Some poeple just want the right class for a certain xp place.  This game has such a low popluation most poeple just invite whoever they can.For soloing like i said above some classes are great at it and some arent.  Not much you can do about that you know what you can and cannot do when you chose your class.  I think SOE did a much better job with eqoa then they are doing with eq2.  Classes in this game are way to similar.<blockquote><hr>XtremSummons wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div> <b>A game without nerfs would be a static and essentially boring game with little new content or character development elements.</b> A game with all class boosts and no nerfs would be a game with very slow development cycles and little new content and development as a result.</div> <div> </div> <p>Message Edited by XtremSummons on <span class="date_text">05-19-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:08 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Im guessing you never played eqoa which was SOE best MMORPG imo.  That game had very few if any nerfs.  That gave the player so much more customization with your character then this.  You would be proud to see how you developed you toon and how different it is then all others poeple toon of the same class.   So at like 70 all of the same class werent just clones each others with close to the same stats.  You could make your toon almost any way you wanted.  If you wanted a dps tank or a dps healer you could.  You didnt have to follow the way SOE wanted your class to be.  Its hard to really explain how great that game was if only SOE took some of the great ideas they had in eqoa and eq1 eq2 would be a much better game.<div></div>

<P>If you don't care so much about dps then why make the post? If like you say you're non plussed about the whole dps then why does it bother you so much?? Pet classes should be below sorcerers in dps, as we should have a far greater solo ability. Sure it's great being higher than sorcerers on the dps chart, but necro and summoners were never envisaged to be higher than wizzies or warlocks, so being brought down a notch or two isn't suprising whatsoever.  I just doubt whether sony understands the concept of balance we're probably end up being  nerfed until oblivion..... /mourn troubadors...</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by runekeepa on <span class=date_text>05-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:26 PM</span>

EQOA is a console game. That mentality works great for console games. PC gamers aren't so forgiving of huge game imbalances.For the most part EQOA is a solo game you play online with other people. In my year of playing it, I never saw the community that any PC MMO forms. That community has less pacience for gross imbalances.

<blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:EQOA is a console game. That mentality works great for console games. PC gamers aren't so forgiving of huge game imbalances.For the most part EQOA is a solo game you play online with other people. In my year of playing it, I never saw the community that any PC MMO forms. That community has less pacience for gross imbalances.<hr></blockquote>BTW, EQOA is so great that I can play it for free and haven't in over a year... Wooohooo

<DIV>If u dont care about DPS, why care about the Nerf, u can still have the same fun with post-nerf DPS i am sure, since u dont care abt being best dps or not. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so....Why the post?</DIV>

First off EQOA was just like any other mmo if you played it like one. I was on that game for 2 years and in NO way was it a solo game. Heck, EQ2 is several times more of a solo game then EQOA. It did share the same community of a PC mmo if not more. In fact, since it never developed such a massive player base the community was much more tightly knit. Being almost a strictly grinding game (less then 100 quests total) it also was extremely affected by class balance issues. If one was going to go out and grind for hours that person wanted they’re dpsers to be top notch thus the lower dps tier classes were greatly affected. The problem facing EQ2 now reminds me a lot of EQOA’s caster flaws. For a very long time Wizards just couldn’t reach the damage that melees or petters brought to groups due to mana limitations in long term grinds. The petters weren’t as affected because their pets gave them so much mana free damage. In raiding however it was a different story. Since the fights didn’t last for hours on end, the wizard’s damage potential was much higher. The petters couldn’t match this damage and were used for utility. Necros had siphons and pacts and became patch healers. The mage (conjuror) suffered more because their only important “utility” was coth. I’m not sure how it is now; they recently "buffed" all of the classes.What scares me the most about all these changes is simple. Besides coth, what do conjurors bring to a group/raid if a wizard can fill the DPS role better? It is said we are tier 2 dps since we have more utility but I just don’t see it. I see our "utility" being our survivability in solo play but how does this help us in group/raid encounters. I’m very much new to EQ2 so I could be completely wrong but will conjurors, now dealing second rate dps, have trouble finding groups/raids where our "utility" isn’t nearly as important. I mean who cares if I have a giant rock in front of me when the tank is taking all the hits. If I’m not there for damage, then what? To make matters worse, these changes can and probably will negatively affect our solo play. In the end what are we left with? What use are we now that we’re not going to be able to solo as well and our DPS just isn’t sufficient.If anyone says coth ill cry. I didn’t like being a coth [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] in EQOA and I’m not going to like it here.In the end this is all speculation. I’m not high enough to raid and the changes haven’t gone live. I’m just a conjuror worried about the future of his class.<div></div>

<DIV>No I've never played EQOA, so I can't really comment on what you're saying. But traditionally console MMOs are quite different and have fewer pressures and difficulties associated. I'd tend to believe Zald's point that EQOA probably has a quite different overall level of balance difficulty and probably greater overall control in terms of development and balance, resulting in an easier and more positive balance profile. I'd guess at smaller communities of players (it's partly size that makes balancing so important), fewer mob types, more general abilities rather than class specific ones, smaller worlds, less questing etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wizards are indeed meant to be fragile cannons. Indeed every class has specific areas of strength included in their damage profile - note I mentioned damage and utility; solo Vs group strength is another axis of balance. Since Conjurors are meant to be strong soloists, it's all the more important that the Wizards should have greater attractiveness to groups and raids in return. Wizards need to be top class contributors to groups/raids because they're so weak in soloing. Conjurors should have lesser contribution to groups/raids because they're excellent soloists.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point about soloing ability affecting game experience needs to be seen in that context. So, one or two weaker solo classes will be accepted because those players will access most of their stuff through grouping - but they need to be extremely attractive to groups in return, because otherwise they're absolutely messed up. There is a definite overall negative effect from conjurors beating Wizards in DPS for group/raid contribution and also being near the top of the pile in soloing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the content bias side, it's important the solo content and group content are exactly that. It's fine that a few classes can't solo well - but when several classes are able to take on definitively group intended content (such as named heroics) it's important that their soloing power is reduced to maintain the solo/group content bias. That's why a whole series of classes are being reduced in solo ability (not just summoners). This is separate from the summoner/sorcerer balance question - it's a general player Vs mob balance issue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Similarly, on contribution to raids - guilds should be able to choose Conjurors for raids based on utility, damage types, AoE etc and also Sorcerers on the basis of top single target damage. Right now, Sorcerers don't have the top single target damage and don't compete with us on multi-target or utility so there's no reason to take them along. Different raids should require different class profiles - but right now Sorcerers aren't the better mage choice for nearly all raid content, which is certainly a problem. The patch notes specifically mention that they want to ensure that where single target damage is needed, the sorcerer should be the mage of choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason you'll see Summoner Vs Sorcerer balance often being an issue is because of SoE's design intent to manage balance at a Class level as well as at a global level. They've decided to ensure that all Mage classes should be balanced against each other. Enchanters are extremely focussed on Utility and so tend to be balanced by other elements of their play - but Summoners and Sorcerers have quite similar contribution to groups/raids and so are very often compared to each other. It's natural in the way that SoE are balancing at two levels, that Summoners and Sorcerers should most often come into 'conflict'. It's also because Summoners and Sorcerers are meant to sit at opposite ends of the solo/group balanace axis.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another element in all of this, is that pet classes are notoriously difficult to balance in these games. They're the most common type of class to be out of balance in just about any MMO. As somebody has pointed out in another thread, pet classes tend to react to change by changing tactics, using different pets etc. Strategy, tactics and player skill are much more important in the performance of pet classes than any other type of class on the whole. This makes it even more difficult to predict the effect of any given change in the toolset on the actual ability of players to take on content. That means that pet classes are most liable to have post-implementation adjustments to their tools. In EQ2 that has included improvements to pets as well as nerfs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Summoners are just a difficult class to get right. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps one last thought to leave you with. Developers of games like these are part of a huge community that are deeply informed of the dynamics of MMOs which are massively complex and interependent systems and are, as such, extremely difficult to manage. You can even take a degree in game design in many countries now. Game design is discussed at length in several publications and at a very deep level. They do get things wrong of course and will try new approaches in a game and find that they don't work well... but their decisions are taken based on a huge knowledge resource about the best ways to manage such games. Something so basic as whether nerfing is necessary in such games is really not at question. Nor is whether class balancing is necessary in order to maintain game appeal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>X</DIV><p>Message Edited by XtremSummons on <span class=date_text>05-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:07 AM</span>

<div></div>My fears stem from the fact the this IS an mmo and solo play is very much a secondary aspect. I’m sure you’ve raided before and maybe you could help me put my mind at ease. What now does the conjuror bring to the table in grp/raid? (besides coth)Does the conjurer have such higher AOE DPS to make them that more useful then a sorc in grp encounters? If so are they're that many high end grp encounters to make a conjurer viable. Don’t sorc get AOE too?Are there enough 6 man oriented fights that last long enough for the Conj DPS to shine? What about raid?What it comes down to is, are there enough situations in the game where a group will choose a conj over a sorc because they are more efficient even now that we are second rate DPS? If not then the conj will always sit in the shadow of the sorc.Please dont take this post aggressively I’m merely trying to seek answers. I chose the conj because i like the idea of the class and because as you stated they take a bit more skill. But if the sorc is more efficient in grp/raid encounters for a majority of the time we will be nothing more than what wizards are now.I do believe that a sorc should out DPS a summoner but I feel the summoner should make up for the loss of DPS through grp/raid utility. That’s the balance I want. Considering this is an mmo, being able to solo just doesn’t cut it; especially now that our exceptional solo ability has been called into question.Please help me out here.  PS if any of these questions come off as newbish I’m quite sorry but I only know what I knowedited to keep this post more on track with the topic<div></div><p>Message Edited by digi on <span class=date_text>05-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:08 AM</span>

<P>Conjurors have more AoE/multi-target options. Both have some AoE spells, but conjurors also have pets and dumbfire pets with AoEs, they have more dumbfire pets which can be targeted at seperate mobs too.</P> <P>The patch notes state that well equipped conjurors should still be able to outdamage Sorcerers on single target when the dumbfires survive. Most final mobs at raids have AoE damage that kills dumbfires - but many can be timed so that your dumbfires deliver much of their contribution and most raids involve more than just te big AoEing mob at the end.</P> <P>Raid mob immunities to certain damage types make a difference too. Sorcerers can be massively weakened by immunities. Conjurors can too but often by other mobs - and the ability to switch between pets which have different types of damage can reduce the impact of immunities.</P> <P>Conjurors have great power sustainability too, better than sorcerers. Their power management is excellent and they can often keep going much longer than other classes. This can be especially useful when the raid includes power draining effects from mobs. You can do lower DPS but still deliver more damage over time as a result in many situations.</P> <P>For me CotH isn't really for the massive raids. It can help shorten waiting time when you've got lots of people waiting on stragglers and can help pull people to the right spot safely but it isn't a huge contribution. CotH is great when you have a group or two groups working through a dungeon. When somebody dies, being able to CotH them back instead of everyone having to return to the start to pick them up is a huge benefit. Especially so, when the healer or tank has died and getting back to the beginning would be a nightmare without them.</P> <P>Raid contribution through shards, sacrifice (big heal and power heal), tank buffs for specific types of damage, Heat/Cold mitigation, built in debuffs on some mitigation etc can also play a factor.</P> <P>Conjurors are excellent for building small groups (3 or 4 players) around. They contribute excellently to much 6 person group content. They can contribute to raids well depending upon the raid involved and are good soloists. All of which make them a strong class to choose.</P> <P>Re EQOA, if minor DPS changes led to classes being made useless and what you saw as the downfall of the game... then that's lack of balance affecting the game experience. Less content variety (mostly single group grind) means less difficulty in balance because differing content and mob types do not need to be taken into account. More clearly defined class roles lead to less difficulty in balance. Less soloing leads to massively easier class balance. Fewer quests means much less variety in difficulty and content variety - meaning easier balance. Fewer mob types and zones make it easier and quicker to adjust all mobs to redress player/mob balance - hence less player modification.</P> <P>Honestly, just stating that there had nearly never been nerfs in the game made it obvious that the balance must have been a lot easier in that game. In any sufficiently complex MMO, you have to have nerfing or the game stagnates/development cycles lengthen.</P> <P>X</P> <P>P.S. Topic of the thread is why the nerfs... so discussion of why nerfing is necessary is actually the topic - not whether the changes would affect raiding etc...</P><p>Message Edited by XtremSummons on <span class=date_text>05-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:09 AM</span>

<P>The thing is, you are making one logical presumption that simply is not true. You are presuming sorcerers are "weak" at soloing. This is simply not the case. They fare extremely well against the same mobs that most summoners would choose to tackle while soloing. The tactics are different but are equally effective. A good sorcerer can actually kill things faster and in many cases "safer" than most summoners I know -- and they can do so without a lot of downtime providing decent food/drink is available.</P> <P>My partner plays a high level (read "L70") wizard that gained the majority of those levels via soloing and questing (usually done while soloing with the occasional group/raid thrown in for the tough ones). This wizard toon has always been somewhat "twinked" I admit, but still it shows the capacity of the sorcerer for this type of activity when played well and geared appropriately. Also, I have noticed that the majority of ^^^ named heroics have never proven impossible (and in many cases not even "unsafe") to kill with some effort and strategy.</P> <P> </P> <P>While there may be many reasons to lower a Summoner's DPS vs Sorcerer, the comparitive ability to solo is NOT one of them. Both sorcerers and summoners can solo great without either being a clear leader in this area.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by sabutterworth on <span class=date_text>05-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:31 AM</span>

<DIV>Hehe that's a point of view. I'd say I think you're wrong, but then you'd say that makes me misinformed. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>X</DIV>

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> XtremSummons wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hehe that's a point of view. I'd say I think you're wrong, but then you'd say that makes me misinformed. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>X</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>OK, edited the post and removed the potential inflammatory. I'm not here to post flame bait <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> My apologies.

<DIV>All this writing and moaning...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's simple -- summoners dished out SICK dps, their pets outdamaged warlocks and wizards on their own autoattack.  The lack of balance and the lenght of time it was allowed to exist were astounding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hence the nerf, long overdue....</DIV>

<DIV>Hehe in that case... Sorcerers aren't as good at soloing as Summoners. They can get by soloing and can do a fair bit - but not as much and not as well. It's not that they can't solo at all or do some quests on their own, it's that they can't do it as well as summoners and they are much, much more dependent upon excellent spell upgrades to be able to do it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We may just have to agree to disagree. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>X</DIV>

<div></div>eh like I said in all the other posts about this. sorcerers just suck. There spell timer legth could kill a mob of old age and the reliability of a spell hitting to its max is non existant. They dont need to nerf classes they need to fix how bad my wizard sucks. Poor bastage is still at 53 because I just lv my conjurer up. <span></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by holystones on <span class=date_text>05-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:23 AM</span>

<DIV>I have to agree with Xtreme on this one I have a level 63 conjurer,lvl 46 necro, a lvl 42 warlock, and lvl 20 wizard, and the conjurer/necro can handle group solo mobs with more efficiency than the warlock or wizard.  Admittledly the wizard is too low to compare.  Also the fear factor of dying is much lower with the 2 summoners.  Even with the group roots the summoners  still solo better and with the 100% feign death that the necro gets is the 40's not sure which level allows me to try out much harders mobs with out much fear of death.  I solo a lot because of my schedule so I just hope my solo game is not hurt to bad.  Against singles the wizard/warlock might have an advantage as long as the root hold.  With the summoners once my pet has aggro i never have to worry about taking damage or getting interrupts.  So the risk for Wizards/Warlock is higher in the solo game.</DIV>

Wizards are actually more effecient at real soloing than any summoners.  We don't have the damage output that they have along with 2 separate roots.  The fact is, Conjurors in general have to do alot more casting and alot more sitting about 20 meters from a mob staring at it, waiting for a refresh timer for 700 dmg, whereas wizards have to wait the same amount of time for 15k dmg.  Get real that you think a Conjuror can solo as effeciently as a Wizard.  Conjurors can solo well, in fact we are one of the better classes for it, but Wizard hands down owns them all.  I have a friend wizzie who soloes every named in bonemire, and does it in about 1/5 - 1/8 of the time it would take me or any other conjuror to kill the same mob.<div></div>

i posted this because nerfing our dps will make conjs as well as necs even worst then they already are in pvp.  Necs dps is so low that without a good pet they suck in pvp same with conjs.  I dont care about the pve aspect of this game so much so if i do less dmg then a wiz in grps and raids i dont care but this will make summoners do less dmg in pvp where our spells are already  lessen in damaged and thats why i posted this.

Well, as a PvP Conjuror, prepare to be worthless really. Stifle gone.Stun like half duration.Damage from Shattered gone.Scout pet dmg gone.TANK pet dmg reduced.Not sure how effective EV is in a PvP setting, but either way, gone.Mage pet spells hit for less because of Int reduction in offensive stance.Your pet heal now costs more power to cast for 28 extra hps.Any way you slice it, the made conjurors pretty crappy PvP tools.

<DIV>Lol you should perhaps have mentioned that you didn't care about PvE.... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PvP Vs PvE balance is always a thorn in the side for developers. You can put in two different effects for every ability/spell - with one effect when a player is the target and a different one used when a mob is the target. That makes for a good bit more work when you design and develop new stuff which slows development cycles and increases the costs.  You can put in seperate lines of abilities for PvP and PvE - which is of course even worse. You can try to balance each class in two completely separate environments... which on the whole never works. Things you need to do to fix one side tend to mess up the other side. Or you choose one arena as the primary environment (usually PvE in these games because more people PvE on the whole) and just live with some imbalances on the other side (usually PvP).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's never and easy thing to do - I'd guess that SoE are going for balancing for PvE and making PvP second priority and living with some imbalances.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've read that stifle/stun etc reductions are largely across the board for all classes in an attempt to reduce everybody's soloing ability in PvE. That should at least balance those changes across classes in PvP too - that is, you may be able to stifle and stun less well, but the same applies to many of your opponents. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd also have to say that when design teams prioritise PvE balance, it's often the case that pet professions in particular end up sucking at PvP. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>X</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

<DIV>Question, I played eq1 for 8 years so I am experiance... however I just started EQ2. I have a lvl 28 conjur Its suits my needs so far. Since my game play has drastically changed. IE I work alot more with alot less time to play. Why I picked a class I could solo with if I don't have alot of time to find a Group or raid to attend. So My question is.... are you listening SONY? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why not up Dmg for a Wizard ? Ok flame if you want but think about it. So what who cares what a wizard does... There suppose to be the highest dmg class. There Wizards HELLO ... Thats why they play one. I don't care if it takes me longer to kill a single mob or go out and AE a group of greenies. What I care about it taking abilities that effect my game play. Will it really effect the game if a wizards does 100 more DPS then a Conjur? Probley not, but they ( meaning Wizards) play so they can brag about the big nuke or crit they got.  I as a conjur play, so I can say, I went  out and soloed a greeny while picking floweres in Antonica </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ps, player balancing has always been a joke. You can't do it and IMO you shouldn't try. People don't play because where all the same we play because we are different. form your own opinions </DIV><p>Message Edited by Twsly76 on <span class=date_text>05-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:33 AM</span>

<div><blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:<blockquote><hr>Zald wrote:EQOA is a console game. That mentality works great for console games. PC gamers aren't so forgiving of huge game imbalances.For the most part EQOA is a solo game you play online with other people. In my year of playing it, I never saw the community that any PC MMO forms. That community has less pacience for gross imbalances.<hr></blockquote>BTW, EQOA is so great that I can play it for free and haven't in over a year... Wooohooo<hr></blockquote>i see the exact opposite. It's irrelevant to say eqoa is a worse game due to it having less people because it lacked funding and support. Only so many people flocked to the idea of a mmorpg on ps2. It quickly lost new subscriptions so SOE moved all the devs to eq2 and quit adding content, the game is slowly dying I think there's been 1 or 2 very small content patches in the last 2 years (few new camps and new class epics). It has absolutely nothing to do with how good the game is. They should of released eqoa like ffxi for both computer and ps2, because the game was great just not enough people into the ps2 idea. The community was much better than this game (lots of central hubs, no instancing, much easier to get groups), and although there were only like 4 servers, each server had just as many if not more people than the servers on this game. Also the mentality of the game was nothing like that. Everyone complained that necromancers were overpowered, the problem was the game lacked any funding whatsoever, there was eventually no devs monitoring whether or not certain classes were overpowered. So nothing got fixed. It's pretty pointless to even try to play that game anymore, it's just slowly dying and that's SoE's plan for it. EQOA gets talked down a lot but most people who say this didn't play from the beginning and don't understand why the game lacked support. I have yet to play a more immersive game than that, nothing has came close to the character customization that game had, and on top of all that the raid content was amazing. I've never seen a competitve raid zone done even half as good as SoL in eqoa (complete maze of a dungeon / cave / open lava area mix filled with 18 or so contested nameds and a overall quest to get to nagafen's isle who was also contested). I know this is a bit off topic from the original post but I hate when people come out and bash eqoa with the clipboard comments. The game was not a solo game, it was just like any other mmorpg, it being solely for the ps2 is the only reason it lacked success. </div>

to reply more closely to the topic at hand. I have lobbied for quite sometime that summoners were overpowered. We aren't the only ones overpowered though. IMO the game should have nothing to do with this set tier system and how they feel the classes should rank in terms of damage. All the dps classes should be able to do the most dps on certain mobs, conjurors should be best damage for certain encounters, wizards should be best damage for certain encounters, brigands should be best damage for certain encounters, ect. Each of these dps classes should have some sort of utilility they can use that is as balanced as they can be with other classes utility. The problem at the moment is not only can summoners do more damage than sorcerors on every single fight in the game, they also solo much better than them, they can coth people to the raids, they can hand out mana shards, they can proc their group members, they give good group buffs for resists/mitigation/power. I am not fully aware of all the utility a wizard has but put yourself in their shoes, they are awful at dps and they are awful at soloing, they've stuck thru an underpowered class and deserve all the help they get. My biggest problem is, SoE shouldn't be revamping the classes because they always mess it up (rangers cost tons of money, don't do much dps, and are horrible at soloing). I have a feeling this nerf will affect most every aspect of summoner gameplay when the only problem atm is their DPS on raids. <div></div>

<P>I almost always solo when playing (I prefer it)... and to date, my summoner was good at it, and was fun to play.</P> <P>Now with the upcoming nerf (still not justified in my mind), I will most likely lose interest and cancel, as I did when this happened in EQ1.</P> <P>Because no matter what SOE says they will change, the actual result usually ends up "overboard" and I'll be lucky if I can solo grey gnolls in Antonica...  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

<DIV>Actually, conj outdps the other classes by up to 500dps, and pretty much the reason you see so many conj alts is beause they are the best soloers and the best dps so their is no point in playing the other dps's, thats why u are geting a nerf</DIV>

<blockquote><hr>Brawly wrote:<DIV>Actually, conj outdps the other classes by up to 500dps, and pretty much the reason you see so many conj alts is beause they are the best soloers and the best dps so their is no point in playing the other dps's, thats why u are geting a nerf</DIV><hr></blockquote>Hah and the outsider pipes in.Look pal, you been given some wrong info. Conjurors, although we can solo if we want to, are FAR from the best or most efficient soloers in the game.And .... 500dps. Just hrrrm.

<P>Well as a recently dinged lvl50 conj, i feel so overpowered that it makes me ashamed. Prior to lvl 50, i felt that i had alot to bring to groups ( nukes, aoes, stuns, roots, pets that could replace the MT, dumbfire pets that mass dd and aoe, proc buffs, damage shield, pet and self buffs that negate any amount of damage, pet heals, and utils even too like invis etc).... but seems that those werent enough, cause since i dinged 50 and got that pet damage sheild buff (blazing presence), there seems no end to what i can solo. Green ^^^ mobs vs my adept1 tank pet with adept1 defensive stance cant do 3% damage to my pet before they are dead. i can solo blue heroics without problem, group or single. Today i will try white and yellow heroics just to see. I feel like im a complete group by myself and in all honesty this is so wrong and unfair to other classes my lvl that im looking forward to some balancing. ive been wondering if this imbalance is the reason i cant seem to find a group most days, cause other classes are resentful of conjs for these reasons idk.</P> <P>now im not lvl70 and wont assume that there are as big a discrepencies at their tier than there are at mine, but if this is any indication (my current situation) then its very clear why SOE is hittting conjs so hard with the nerf stick. Comeon guys, there is no need for us to be so overpowered when compared to our "peers and friends".  i KNOW that at my lvl my class needs a serious readjusting.</P> <P>tyvm for reading my post.</P> <P>Pela of Clan Bela, Mistmoore</P>