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slippery 10-22-2012 11:13 PM

<p>Overall I'm not really thrilled. </p><p>Let me start off by saying that there really needs to be big linked ae encounters that actually have hp. Without that, Warlocks really don't bring it. TSO was the only expansion that got this right, and they got it in spades everywhere. Ykesha, Gynok, big groups of trash that had a decent amount of hp, big groups of linked adds, things Warlocks could actually dps. Since then, bombed. Warlocks keep getting stuff for AE's, stuff for AE's, stuff for AE's. It isn't helping, because there is nothing to AE, and it blows single target. </p><p>Take for example the right line, a line that gains increments based on the number of targets hit on cast. So you have to actually have targets to hit for this to reach it's potential. So in most cases this probably is going to be no where near what it should relative to other classes. </p><p>The left side makes me sad. Much like Gift, being limited to Noxious abilities proc'ing it is just bad. Lets look at my spells that aren't noxious. Thunderclap is magic, Concussive Blast is Mage, Arcane Bewilderment Magic, Flames of Velious Elemental (especially ironic being that you buff this spell in this line to get this ability, and it still isn't buffed enough really reach worth casting much higher then most other things), Encase elemental, Blast of Devastation Magic, Rift Magic. Then you have all the temp buffs we have to cast which won't proc it, Aura of Void probably won't proc it either since it isn't actually a damage spell (hostile). Then you have spells that don't make it into the cast order because they are so bad that do nox (Dissolve, Distortion, Absolution, Dark Nebula). So that leaves Plaguebringer (22.5 recast), Apocalypse (22.5 recast), Dark Siphoning (30s recast), Acid and Dark Pyre (4 sec recast) to actually proc it. We don't really cast that much Noxious, please get away from tying damage to casts of it. </p><p>Miasma is about as usless as it gets. This ability is just awful. Enchanters get like 50 cb or potency for the group (that is also going to be useless in raids for a different reason that I'll post elsewhere). We get an ability, that we actually have to cast, that gives 3% power to the group? This is just bad. I need something that gives me single target damage, not an awful group power spell. </p><p>Noxious attunement might be okay if the damage is decent and it is 45% chance.</p><p>The stuff is blah. </p>

Xelgad 10-22-2012 11:59 PM

<p><p>Yeah - we're in the process of redoing the AE line. Instead of the incremental AE, you'll proc charges (more procs from AEs), and you can detonate the charges to deal either AE damage or more ST damage.</p></p>

slippery 10-23-2012 12:35 AM

Does it really have to be ANOTHER thing we have to cast? Just something like Ambidextrous Casting that we can hit while casting. Warlocks are already the class that has the worst cast times because the spells they actually want to cast are generally speaking the long ones. Have more to cast doesn't really help this. Please don't make it like Dark Aggravation. That spells function is horrendous (that one should work a lot more like Exploit Weakness, and a lot less like it does right now. Proc'ing it and losing the cast because you can't figure out what it proc'd on, or because the debuff on the mob got dispelled is enraging). For the left line to really be viable the Flames ability is going to need some love (this applies to both Sorcerors). It just isn't significant since the extra damage doesn't gain from everything like ability mod. The boost to the spell just isn't enough to even push it up to one of the top 5 abilities we'd cast single target. Relative to changing Netherealm from a useless ability to one that dominates on AE encounters, the comparison just isn't there. For their to be any sort of parity here we need something akin to another Plaguebringer (kind of like how Wizards got Eci's, the best AE spell in the game). The Flames buff just isn't up to par, and is going to end up forcing all Sorc's down the right side.

Mogrim 10-23-2012 01:50 AM

<p>Again, our Void Contract is not a strong Prestige choice. There are balancing issues with how the Max Power/Max Health buffs that summoners give will help all Mage dps EXCEPT Warlocks. In that perspective, giving us something somewhere in these Prestige Points to offset that would be much appreciated. Perhaps The Cast/Reuse Reduction on the right side could be replaced with something that helps our dps. Perhaps replacing it with something that reduces the base cast speed of Absolution/Rift (as the fact that Absolution cannot cast faster than 2 seconds and Rift cannot cast faster than 2.5 seconds remains a major problem when we try to keep pace with AOE dps on low-health adds, which should be our specialty). Also, replacing Void Contract with something else would be useful. If we're simply looking to provide a counter balance to the fact that the other classes will benefit more from the max power/max health buffs, how about a 1 point spent ability that makes Curse of Darkness and Eternal Damnation instant cast?  Gift of Bertox is interesting, but not incredibly powerful. Suggestion: Rank 3 makes Gift of Bertox a maintained spell instead of a temp.  In addition, Ranks 2 and 3 of Toxic Mist and/or Noxious Bolt are required to advance the tree, but are pointless as our reuse is capped. Would not mind making that just a 1 Prestige Access and dropping the remaining aspect of it, as long as we improve the "Endline" Prestiges (Gift of Bertox and completely scrapping Void Contract for something else)</p>

slippery 10-23-2012 04:27 AM

<p>I wanted to talk a little about cast time and why it is important. I'll bring you back a few years to when gear proc's got nerfed in to an oblivion they haven't returned from. Around that time I told you that nerfing proc's on gear was not addressing the problem. There was only a few proc's that needed to be changed. Why? Because the only proc's that create a real imbalance between classes are the ones that proc 100% of the time. Largely those weren't on gear, they are spells cast by players. The imbalance is there because not everyone casts the same amount of stuff over a period of time. Warlocks bomb here, hard. The pet classes (Summoners, Enchanter, Beastlords, Shamans when dps'ing) have it the best for days because not only do they have the fastest casting spells (or ca's) they also have a pet that is proc'ing those things too.</p><p><em>Edit: Think Peace of Mind, VC, etc (nevermind that melee classes get more of these type of proc's and proc them a ton more, and spell auto is lacking in what it proc's because the way it was implemented was a joke)</em> This is where the imbalance has always existed. The fact that spells we want to cast take so long to cast kills us. It's why not maintaining a balance of the spells has really hurt us. Our faster casting spells that would be the ones that help us in this scenario are the ones that are absolutely horrendous and not worth casting. Then account for the fact that we effectively have 6 temp buffs we have to cast. Gift, Curse, Eternal Damnation, Sanguine Sacrifice, Curse of Void (is effectively a temp buff), and Negative Void (putting it in this category) Negative Void is pretty bad these days as well. The function here really needs to be looked at. It's one of those things that worked when it was put in the game, and doesn't work now. It just works as a penalty to the warlock. Take an encounter like boar as an example. What do you do? Mostly single target, but then there are groups of 4 adds. When the adds spawn do you cancel Negative Void so you can use your best AE on them, or do you leave it up and just not cast your best AE so that you don't have to waste the time casting this again so you can get the damage proc and additional damage/full ability mod on Apoc and Dark Siphoning while spending the majority of the time dps'ing the boar? It needs to either be instant cast/recovery or just give us a second set of abilities that are single target.</p>

kenzar 10-23-2012 02:08 PM

<p>Even with the implamentation of the 12 points in the top line to get both sides of the original tree, I still think that filling out the 20 points into the prestige points currently on live is going to be atractive unless there are some serious improvments to the new lines.</p><p>The Flames upgrade is pretty meh, but having a second spell to reset FC and an extra 25 to 30ish static potency for most raiders is pretty powerful. You even still have 5 points left over to throw into the new abilities.</p><p>I guess I would just like to see some endlines that actually floor me the way the healer ones did when I logged those in.</p>

Shotneedle 10-24-2012 01:50 PM

<p>Noxious Bolt with the damage enhances is pretty strong, guys.</p>

Mogrim 10-26-2012 11:22 PM

<p>With 60 Incriments, Apocalypse is still casting as normal. Rift works find, however.</p>

Mogrim 10-27-2012 01:01 AM

<p>After testing and conceptualizing, I like these changes. I do however, have a minor balancing concern. Fusion is a lot lot lot stronger than Rift. Apocalypse is a lot stronger than Hail Storm. Just straight up, unless the encounters have enough 8+ mob enouncters for Warlocks to shine, this would be a lot stronger for the Wizard than the Warlock. If you add in that Fusion can also be reset at a 24% success rate, it can stack up pretty quickly to be a decisive advantage on the smaller encounters/named fights for the Wizard. Smaller encounters/named fights are what raid builds are generally based around. As long as there are significant large encounters to balance this seeming-Wizard advantage, we're all good.</p><p>Otherwise, some minor improvements to our Prestige would be wise. Perhaps for the Warlock, since our mythical gives us more help with hate, Toxic Confusion can be replaced with something that provides a dps edge?</p>

slippery 10-27-2012 04:42 AM

<p>It isn't even in the realm of balanced between warlocks and wizards. Like, it isn't even in the same ball park. We're talking World Series vs pee wee baseball. Wizards can reset fusion, so they could get back to back instant cast fusion. Wizards have something that has massive gains from all of this. Fiery Blast. Not only do they gain from the extra spells they can cast (and possibly 2 fusions) during Fiery Blast because of the instant cast time, they also get a nuke that is probably going to hit for 2-4m. That means in addition to those instant cast spells adding extra to FB, and the extra spells cast adding to FB, and the nuke adding to FB, they get a ridiculously high FB. What do Warlocks get? Yea I got nothin.  Go Warlocks.</p><p>I mean, I can't even recommend anything that compares. Wizards are going to completely wreck everyone. Wizards already gain the most from all the buffs in the game relative to other classes because of how synergistic everything they have is. </p><p>Just because 2 classes get the same exact ability doesn't mean it is balanced</p>

Piropiro 10-27-2012 02:06 PM

<p>basically what Slip said. Also i noticed that the charges for aura seem to be randomly applying. sometimes they will charge up and other times they wont. I dont know if this is intended or not but i'd hope its not working as intended. This to go along with what was said about apoc not going to 0 cast time.</p><p>The entire issue i have with the prestige lines as they are is that they are cookie cutter identically to eachother wizard/warlock wise. you can't achieve anything remotely balanced when you try to do the same thing for each classes "equivelants".</p><p>They need to be tailored to each class specifically so that you can maintain a better balance on things. I'd 100% agree that the dehate part on warlocks needs to be changed if there is to be any way to try to balance this out for warlocks compared to wizards.</p><p>Given that this is an aoe line im not sure if it will come close to evening out in terms of name fights with fiery blast, but one possible option to make it tied in with the aoe aspect of it is to have the 3 ranks of the dehate changed into something per rank like:</p><p>1. Applies Negative Void as a passive buff. (no longer toggles to single mode, just applies the damage increase on the green spells straight up.)</p><p>2. Removes max target limits of green/blue spells</p><p>3. Adds 1 dot tick increase to Negative Void. (or 5 sda)</p><p>Something along those lines would help to keep it in line with the aoe line concept, and help to fix a lot of the mythical buff issues that currently plague the warlocks.</p><p>edited it a couple times to reword/clarify.</p>

Mogrim 10-27-2012 02:39 PM

<p>I agree with the previous 2 posts. I was mainly trying to keep my language from becoming too extreme."Insta-Cast Fusion is a BFD" - Joe Biden. Just saying. Anyhow more seriously, The best ideas I can think of...1) Change <span >Toxic Confusion to be a 1 point option that gives +1 tick to all dots while @rank 60 .2) Change the Dark Pact buff to be an improvement of Negative Void:     a) remove max target limits of greens/blues    b) remove changing greens into single target while activeThese two changes would help a bunch, I think.         </span><span > </span></p>

Piropiro 10-27-2012 06:49 PM

<p><cite>Mogrim wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I agree with the previous 2 posts. I was mainly trying to keep my language from becoming too extreme."Insta-Cast Fusion is a BFD" - Joe Biden. Just saying. Anyhow more seriously, The best ideas I can think of...<strong>1) Change </strong><span><strong>Toxic Confusion to be a 1 point option that gives +1 tick to all dots while @rank 60 .</strong>2) Change the Dark Pact buff to be an improvement of Negative Void:     a) remove max target limits of greens/blues    b) remove changing greens into single target while activeThese two changes would help a bunch, I think.         </span><span> </span></p></blockquote><p>if that was done i'd prefer to not attach it to an @ 60 charge. we already have the cast times of apoc/rift associated with that. It should be just a passive straight up aspect. you could do confusion to be something where like</p><p>Rank 1: its at 60 charges for 1 dot tick</p><p>Rank 2: it's at 30 charges for 1 dot tick</p><p>Rank 3: its a passive 1 dot tick</p><p>But since its in that line it needs to be 3 ranks to keep it balance across the board class wise.</p><p>I'd rather change Noxious Attunement to the Negative Void one though, and address more possibilities.</p><p>Rank 1: Makes Negative Void apply its bonus without changing to single targets</p><p>Rank 2: Removes limits on targets</p><p>Rank 3: Changes Green AE's into from area of target Blue's.</p>

Chronus1 10-27-2012 08:02 PM

<p>Personnaly I quite like the changes apart from Toxic assault dispelling all incriments that you've built up. If this is intended incriments need to be gained a lot faster but I think it would be better if instead it just took 20 off.</p><p>Also the dark pact buff seems pretty weak.</p><p>And at 60 incriments apocalypse doesn't instant cast.</p>

slippery 10-31-2012 04:06 PM

Sooooooooo, about the fact that Wizards blatantly gain more from this stuff then Warlocks, can we expect anything or is it just going to be lopsided? Warlocks really need the help, especially as I haven't really seen any AE content.

Chronus1 10-31-2012 07:16 PM

<p>Well first of all apocalypse actually instant casting at maximum incriments would be nice (the entire speeding up thing for apoc seems bugged, it's hit and miss).</p><p>For improvements somthing other than miasma would help, as an endline it's doing less than 1% of anybody's parse with the poor proc rate on the most AE-ish fight in the new expac. It's essentially pathetic.</p><p>How about somthing to improve Curse of darkness with an extra large single target hit in addition to what it does now? Would help due to this expansion being obviously geared towards single target. Or maybe somthing to make the mythical buff better? I'm sure Slippery and Mogrim could come up with better ideas.</p><p>I don't really want to suggest not allowing the new stuff to count towards Fiery Blast as it's just trying to get another class nerfed essentially but if you can't make it balanced by giving the warlock somthing better/different then I can't see an alternative unless you genuinely believe that wizards are actually behind warlocks at the moment...</p>

Mogrim 11-01-2012 04:37 PM

<p>A boost simply to Curse of Darkness is too much a group boost. To make things even, looking at what Wizards and summoners are getting, we need something better for US. The best thing I've seen out here is modifying Negative Void to no longer restrict greens to single target. Another option would be to instead...have it ALSO change RIFT to a single target option, and increase the damage of Rift by 200% before modifications.</p>

Piropiro 11-01-2012 04:42 PM

<p><cite>Mogrim wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>A boost simply to Curse of Darkness is too much a group boost. To make things even, looking at what Wizards and summoners are getting, we need something better for US. The best thing I've seen out here is modifying Negative Void to no longer restrict greens to single target. Another option would be to instead...have it ALSO change RIFT to a single target option, and increase the damage of Rift by 200% before modifications.</p></blockquote><p>im more for the removal of having to toggle negative void and makn it a straight up boost, but the rift idea isn't really bad. Given Rift has been a huge pos for i lost track of how many expansions, it'd be pretty nice to at some point see something like that done.</p><p>Also, given the change to an emphasis on having 60 charges, can there be a modifcation done on the proc rate. 33% at 3 ranks is kind of blah when ur trying to build up to 60.</p>

slippery 11-01-2012 07:01 PM

I'm in agreement on Negative Void not needing to be toggled and just always buffing our AE's damage. Especially given minimal AE content since TSO.

Enotirab 11-01-2012 07:15 PM

<p>The Negative Void fix could replace Miasma, since its so underwhelming.</p>

Piropiro 11-01-2012 07:54 PM

<p><cite>slippery wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I'm in agreement on Negative Void not needing to be toggled and just always buffing our AE's damage. Especially given minimal AE content since TSO.</blockquote><p>not to mention warlocks are blah in terms of smaller grp encounters, especially looking at beastlords. if there's not 8-12 mobs in an encounter and it lives for 30-40 seconds we really dont have an ae edge anymore. I'd also like to point out the MASS amount of large group encounters in raids in chains so far....</p><p>Rift has long been useless on 99% of encounters</p><p>Our mythical is a lesser of evils choice half the time when swaping between grps and singles on names</p><p>We're 100% dependant on UT from a troub, go go forget to joust and dying,</p><p>Our single target counterpart has the best aoes in game.</p><p>We are forced to juggle a 5 sec reseting ily temp with our 10 second reseting temp on top of our rotations on top of ours rooting us so we have to make sure on fights where there's movement that lines up right with the script and our timers, yet they both factor into our "class balance" be it vs other mages or dps in general.</p><p>What is supposed to be our big single target nuke bread in butter, Distortion, is one of our lowest single target effeciency spells.</p><p>Acid storm isn't even on hotbars and its counterpat with wizards is Rays which is a high dps effecient spell.</p><p>*edit* somehow i forgot Dark Aggravation. i still dont get why its so hard to just let it be a buff on us and let us cast on whatever.</p><p>Can we start addressing real issues already? Things are getting pretty ridiculous, and every expansion and aa or prestige tree just exacerbates it all. Or is it going to be like last expac where we were told, we plan to fix this in the "distant future."</p>

Thalzokal 11-01-2012 08:33 PM

+1 Piropiro! Warlocks are supposed to be THE aoe mage and we are outparsed on encounter fights by wizards and beastlords time and time again. PLEASE read these forums and listen to what the people who play the class every day are saying.

daray 11-01-2012 08:59 PM

<p>I assume, from a class balance perspective, you guys are remembering to exclude the effects of EV / Bolster / PF from your comparisons/calculations (if not being applied equally to both classes)?</p><p>In some cases, many of those buffs may fall to wizards in certain guilds, and therefore the bottom-line dps numbers may not be an accurate representation of where the two classes actually stack up against eachother.</p>

Piropiro 11-01-2012 10:19 PM

<p><cite>daray wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I assume, from a class balance perspective, you guys are remembering to exclude the effects of EV / Bolster / PF from your comparisons/calculations (if not being applied equally to both classes)?</p><p>In some cases, many of those buffs may fall to wizards in certain guilds, and therefore the bottom-line dps numbers may not be an accurate representation of where the two classes actually stack up against eachother.</p></blockquote><p>the only buffs i calculate into balance wise are tc and ut, though both should be excluded and the classes should be made to balance w/o.</p><p>That said, primal fury will be grp wide in xpac, ev is straight up equal gain and should always be given to the better dps, and bolster well, have fun fighting for that within the entire raid and getting it consistantly. so ev/bolster should really never be factored in due to inconsistancy. in an ideal world tho if theres two sorcs theres 2 mage grps and ev on both.</p>

slippery 11-02-2012 11:36 AM

Apocalypse still isn't instant cast at 60 increments, it is .75. There really needs to be an increment count in maintained, or a new window or something. Trying to find the constantly moving buff in my effects window is an extremely frustrating effort in futility that really detracts from gameplay. Gift of Bertoxxulous should be a permanent buff at 3 ranks of the prestige, or 5 ranks of the aa in the Warlock tree (though probably prestige). It's 45 second duration, 45 second recast. Making us recast it at this point is really kind of silly, especially since it is a self buff. No smart Warlock is going to put points in to the deagro (Except maybe the 1 left over point) because we have no need for something that small. Consider that we are running around at 50% deagro with a mythical proc that decreases threat position to the encounter. This is where the buff that removes the need for Negative Void to be toggled should be. In fact, this could even be a 3 part thing that modifies our spells. First rank makes Acid Storm a spell targeted on an NPC or targeted area instead of a dumbfire pet (including the fact that it would then be modified by our stats), second rank makes Gift a permanent buff, third rank makes negative void not turn ae's in to single target spells. To be honest, I don't like how this whole thing functions at all. It's just bad. You want to talk about the type of ability that is not intuitive to use, and is frustrating as can be, this is it. At that point you only take 1 more proc to make 2 spells instant cast? Great, just save those 2 spells until you get those increments. Until 7 spells later you still haven't got those increments and have been standing there doing less then you should. It's the kind of ability that costs people dps instead of actually benefiting them, because in reality they aren't casting things they should because they are waiting around for other things. Not casting the spells that go instant because you know you're going to get rid of the cast time, not casting the nuke because you're waiting for Fiery Blast and Time warp, not casting the nuke because you are waiting on the instant cast spells. It creates a lot of waiting. It's going to increase the gap between good and average players. What would I do differently? When you hit 60 triggers you also instantly refresh those spells that go instant cast. Why? It stops the waiting. You hit 60 triggers, you cast the spells, you cast the nuke. Although, in the case of Warlocks, that still isn't true. Why? Because they are AE's, so you are probably waiting on adds anyways (not that there really are many of those.)

Xelgad 11-02-2012 12:22 PM

<p>Awesome feedback.  The patch today is adding spell text for when you hit 60 increments, so hopefully that will help. Does the Dragowulf SpellTimer Window work? I can see what the UI people think of adding a window like that to the default UI, but usually we like to leave the more advanced features to modders.</p>

Geothe 11-02-2012 01:05 PM

<p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>. Does the Dragowulf SpellTimer Window work? I can see what the UI people think of adding a window like that to the default UI, but usually we like to leave the more advanced features to modders.</p></blockquote><p>Yes, it does work.  However, not very well being as there is a limit to how many buffs are shown in the default window in the first place (20-ish?).  If the desired buff gets pushed off the maintained window.. then it isn't picked up by Dragowulf's add on anyways.  And with as many procs that are present in the game now, its a crap shoot if what you want to see will actually show up in Dragowulf window.  Get the UI people to massively increase the cap for spells shown in the default window, and then specialty addons like Dragowulf will be 100% awesome... especially if its included as an option within the game UI itself, instead of an addon.</p>

slippery 11-02-2012 01:24 PM

<p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Awesome feedback.  The patch today is adding spell text for when you hit 60 increments, so hopefully that will help. Does the Dragowulf SpellTimer Window work? I can see what the UI people think of adding a window like that to the default UI, but usually we like to leave the more advanced features to modders.</p></blockquote><p>It would work (assuming it is in the maintained window and not bounced out by something else) but I haven't seen an actual increment count in maintained (which could be drums not having updated it), meaning that you only see that you have the buff. Functionally it would be better if the buff just existed with a permanent duration and showed how many increments you currently had, instead of a refreshing temp buff that always gets bumped to the end of the list every time it refreshes. That way you should be able to guarantee it shows up in stuff like the UI windows that pull information from maintained for a different window. </p><p>I just checked default UI, and the increments do show up in maintained so they should show up in the Dragowulf window baring none of the above problems.</p>

daray 11-02-2012 01:26 PM

<p>Regarding the display (as I think I mentioned elsewhere), in an ideal world the functionality of the maintained window would need to be changed to give us the ability to:</p><ul><li>Right click on an icon and set it to "Always Hide" (as well as being hidden it wouldn't count to the ~35 limit that the maintained can hold)</li><li>Add another right click option to the entire maintained window to "Show Hidden".</li></ul><ul><li>Alternatively, just remove the ~35 limit and have the server send all the maintained data to the client, but I can't speak for what performance impact that will have.</li></ul><p>As already stated above, those UI Mods pull their data from the maintained window, and if the buff is pushed off the maintained window due to the huge numbers of hostile procs and other random stuff that goes in there, then the data isn't available for these mods to pull from. In the case of these incremental buffs, each time it is refreshed it gets pushed off the maintained window for me, and the data isn't available until earlier procs start to drop off (at which point I have probably refreshed the incremental buff anyway).</p><p>EDIT:</p><p><cite>slippery wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Functionally it would be better if the buff just existed with a permanent duration and showed how many increments you currently had, instead of a refreshing temp buff that always gets bumped to the end of the list every time it refreshes.</blockquote><p>And that is actually a good idea, regardless of whether you want to tinker with the maintained window code or not.</p>

Shotneedle 11-02-2012 01:30 PM

<p>But this is the best part about Miasma.</p><p><img src="http://i.imgur.com/ed8cx.png" width="476" height="220" /></p>

slippery 11-02-2012 01:35 PM

<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>But this is the best part about Miasma.</p><p><img src="http://i.imgur.com/ed8cx.png" width="476" height="220" /></p></blockquote><p>Considering the majority of the time you are only fighting one target, and the Wizards version of Miasma is single target and hits 4 times as hard, Miasma should have a higher proc chance. It really doesn't proc that often, even against group training dummies</p>

daray 11-02-2012 01:55 PM

<p><cite>slippery wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>It's the kind of ability that costs people dps instead of actually benefiting them, because in reality they aren't casting things they should because they are waiting around for other things. Not casting the spells that go instant because you know you're going to get rid of the cast time, not casting the nuke because you're waiting for Fiery Blast and Time warp, not casting the nuke because you are waiting on the instant cast spells. ... What would I do differently? When you hit 60 triggers you also instantly refresh those spells that go instant cast. Why? It stops the waiting. You hit 60 triggers, you cast the spells, you cast the nuke. </blockquote><p>Meant to comment on the above too - I fully agree with Arabel on this point.</p>

punnkin 11-02-2012 02:23 PM

<p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Awesome feedback.  The patch today is adding spell text for when you hit 60 increments, so hopefully that will help. Does the Dragowulf SpellTimer Window work? I can see what the UI people think of adding a window like that to the default UI, but usually we like to leave the more advanced features to modders.</p></blockquote><p>It shows that the buff is present, and the remaining time (up to the 1 min), and refreshes accurately, but doesn't show the increment counter. So to see how many increments we're up to, we basically have to "chase" the icon with the counter as it jumps around the maintained window. This may be just a ui modding issue though.</p><p>Spell text at 60 increments is definitely a help (thanks!), but it would be nice to have a better way to know how far we are from 60 as we build up too.</p>

Chronus1 11-02-2012 02:48 PM

The number is displayed on the icon on default UI in maintained. I also agree miasma needs a boost now having done all the fights in the instanced x4s. Slippery's idea for replacing the dehate presitge points is actually really good in my opinion, seeing as of now nobody will likely take it (I put the final 1 point in the doublecast buff on the top row).

Piropiro 11-02-2012 03:10 PM

<p><cite>daray wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>slippery wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>It's the kind of ability that costs people dps instead of actually benefiting them, because in reality they aren't casting things they should because they are waiting around for other things. Not casting the spells that go instant because you know you're going to get rid of the cast time, not casting the nuke because you're waiting for Fiery Blast and Time warp, not casting the nuke because you are waiting on the instant cast spells. ... What would I do differently? When you hit 60 triggers you also instantly refresh those spells that go instant cast. Why? It stops the waiting. You hit 60 triggers, you cast the spells, you cast the nuke. </blockquote><p>Meant to comment on the above too - I fully agree with Arabel on this point.</p></blockquote><p>another +1 to this. The entire situation he's describing here is also the present issue with timewarp and focused casting. the reseting of these two just made it that much worse with it too. the juggling system of those two temps has gotten way out of control. Is there anyway the cap on SDA can be lifted so that this is no longer an issue. It's not like there is a huge amount of SDA in game and mages will get instantly OP. It just stops the issues of trying to juggle the two abilities timewise, and wasting them bc ur constantly waiting for the next rotation.</p><p>The trigger rate still needs to be bumped up too. 33% at 3 ranks with mainly single targets around is just to slow. Yes its an ae line but you're gonna have to build up those charges for the spawning adds on encounters, which renders the effects pretty useless at the current proc rate. Not to mention using the abilities clears the charges.</p>

punnkin 11-02-2012 03:13 PM

<p><cite>Chronus1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>The number is displayed on the icon on default UI in maintained. </blockquote><p>Yes, I was referring to the question about the Dragonwulf timers window. It's still hard to see the counter jumping around  in the regular maintained window if you have the max number of spells, procs, and buffs active.</p>

slippery 11-02-2012 04:28 PM

<p><cite>[email protected]_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>daray wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>slippery wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>It's the kind of ability that costs people dps instead of actually benefiting them, because in reality they aren't casting things they should because they are waiting around for other things. Not casting the spells that go instant because you know you're going to get rid of the cast time, not casting the nuke because you're waiting for Fiery Blast and Time warp, not casting the nuke because you are waiting on the instant cast spells. ... What would I do differently? When you hit 60 triggers you also instantly refresh those spells that go instant cast. Why? It stops the waiting. You hit 60 triggers, you cast the spells, you cast the nuke. </blockquote><p>Meant to comment on the above too - I fully agree with Arabel on this point.</p></blockquote><p>another +1 to this. The entire situation he's describing here is also the present issue with timewarp and focused casting. the reseting of these two just made it that much worse with it too. the juggling system of those two temps has gotten way out of control. Is there anyway the cap on SDA can be lifted so that this is no longer an issue. It's not like there is a huge amount of SDA in game and mages will get instantly OP. It just stops the issues of trying to juggle the two abilities timewise, and wasting them bc ur constantly waiting for the next rotation.</p><p>The trigger rate still needs to be bumped up too. 33% at 3 ranks with mainly single targets around is just to slow. Yes its an ae line but you're gonna have to build up those charges for the spawning adds on encounters, which renders the effects pretty useless at the current proc rate. Not to mention using the abilities clears the charges.</p></blockquote><p>Yea, it is great and all that is in an ae line, but the only ae's are adds that die in under 10 seconds. That doesn't really leave you time to build up triggers and cast the ae, hence the waiting for Warlocks that I was talking about above.</p>

Piropiro 11-02-2012 07:31 PM

<p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Noxious Spellslinger now lowers the base casting times of Distortion and Apocalypse to 2 seconds each.</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">Anyway Distortion can go to 1.5? That would be halving both spells. The one on apoc is nice, but just shaving what is essentially 0.5 seconds cast off distortion still doesn't really make it what it should be. it makes it barely better than dark pyre.</p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">Not sure how the rest of the changes look by description alone, but could be good. interested in seeing the duration increase on beneficial spells.</p>

Chronus1 11-03-2012 01:43 PM

<p>I feel like both sorcerer's prestige can be summed up as, left side is nice, right side kinda bad but the left is nowhere near worth giving up the first point on the right. As such both will think strongly about double conversions.</p><p>Change to left duration is 18% with 3 ranks for those who were wondering.</p>

elaot 11-03-2012 04:00 PM

<p>i like the changes made to the left side of the tree but i haven't seen anyone address the problem w/ balancing the left and right trees....</p><p>the current problem is almost no matter what you do to the left tree noone will use it because every sorc will lose to much dmg by dropping the first 3 options in the right hand line. there is just to much potentail loss to overcome with out a MAJOR rework of left hand abilities.</p><p>it seems to me the better option is to remove the link between the current live prestiege tree and the new ones. this would cover fixing alot of the inequalities and allow for people to spec with greater freedom. and save you guys ALOT of headaches across all classes</p><p>i also agree that the SMA limit at 100% is silly and makes juggling buffs just annoying. i also feel this detracts from the desire to try to improve the stat since the hard capping it makes gaining the extremely minor gains from overcapping castspeed laughable when compaired to the overcap gains for scout auto i mean ~.1 SMA for 10 cast speed (and this drops off fast), that means if i wanted to gain 10 speed SMA i'd need 10000 cast speed? this conversion rate means that NOONE trys to get more than the basic soft cap</p><p>what do we gain from overcapping the reuse that i can't even reforge out of since i have better options from spell weapon stats(which do bad dps even with high stats)? could we get some of this to start dropping base reuse or cast speed? something to make this stat valueable overcap would go along way</p><p>i personally don't see why devs are trying to split these 2 lines into "single target" and "ae" versions since this really takes away from the basic point of each class.  i don't think any warlock would be upset not being as good on single target dps as a wizard as long as there is enough large ae content to shine on, and i think the wizards feel the same for the reverse.</p><p>as a side note i have also been waiting for the apoc cast time at 60 increments to be fixed</p><p>+1 for the ideas about changing negative void off of a toggling ability</p><p>lastly the endline "fix" for sorc's that added the ae proc...</p><p>first off the dmg is bad</p><p>secondly this seems to have been implemented to even out what classes give to the group and who benifits. if this is the case the problem is still there mainly that some classes proc these far more than others ~60-120% more due to pets proc'ing the ae's and the basic differance in cast times.</p><p>thirdly these abilities hit friendly targets and non-PvP engaged players.</p>

Piropiro 11-04-2012 12:10 AM

<p>i agree that its a bit silly to have each line be straight up single target and ae. Thats what the class differences are supposed to be. Prestige points should be something that enhances a classes purpose not specs them for their class or their counterparts. Its also bad that there is a large emphasis on making prestige trees very similar between subclasses. "equal" gain isn't equal. giving a wizard and a warlock, or a ranger and assassin etc, near idental lines doesn't net even gains as the classes are fundamentally different. It just creates more class inbalance. Please tailor the prestige trees into being more class specific enhancements and not cookie cutter you each get an aoe or a single target nuke, have fun.</p><p>edit* That said, at least with the last revisions the sorc trees have gotten a little be more class specific but yeah, still needs working on both ends.</p>

Mogrim 11-05-2012 04:36 PM

<p>The main thing is that if the content isn't going to have significant aoe/linked aoe encounters, we would take the left line for such content. We we would be at a significant disadvantage, however. Are there plans to address some of the balancing suggestions we've made on here?</p>

Piropiro 11-05-2012 08:02 PM

<p><span ><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><em><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Warlock</span></span></em></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Miasma should no longer hit players.</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Toxic Assault has had its damage increased by 15%.</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Caustic Detonation has had its damage increased by 15%.</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Noxious Attunement has had its damage reduced by 55%.</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Diseased Mind now increments smoother, removing 20% casting speed every 12 increments. Rank 1 allows the first 12, Rank 2 allows 24 and 36, and Rank 3 allow 48 and 60. It now works properly with both spells.</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Occult Bolt now inflicts additional damage with each increment.</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Perfect Influx is now a 33%/66%/100% increase to Noxious Influx.</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: small;">Empowered Bolt now increases the warlocks potency by 11% per rank if they cast Occult Bolt following Aura of the Void.</span></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">Diseased mind change is really good as far as the progressive change goes, apoc still caps at .75 cast time tho :/</p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;"> </p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt;">Empowered Bolt is a horrible idea. please dont try to dictate our rotations.</p></span></p>

slippery 11-06-2012 07:41 PM

Prestige Mastery The middle bubble at the bottom of the Prestige tree now costs two points. If you really think there is any hope of me taking Miasma for 2 points you are dreaming. With the horrible damage and even worse proc rate I'd rather have anything else for 2 points. Make my myth click not need to be toggled for ae/single target. I'll take that for 2 points. I get it, you guys are out of time, the expansion is Tuesday. I feel for you. That isn't our fault, not enough time was left for the expansion to really get tested and changes worked on. Don't punish us because of that, our stuff still needs work. And lets face it, we all know that once it goes live odds of it changing in the next year, if ever, are incredibly bad.

Piropiro 11-06-2012 08:12 PM

<p>also getting apoc to actually get below .75 cast would be cool. its hard to test stuff when its not working.</p>

Enotirab 11-06-2012 08:15 PM

<p><cite>slippery wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Prestige Mastery The middle bubble at the bottom of the Prestige tree now costs two points. If you really think there is any hope of me taking Miasma for 2 points you are dreaming. With the horrible damage and even worse proc rate I'd rather have anything else for 2 points. Make my myth click not need to be toggled for ae/single target. I'll take that for 2 points. I get it, you guys are out of time, the expansion is Tuesday. I feel for you. That isn't our fault, not enough time was left for the expansion to really get tested and changes worked on. Don't punish us because of that, our stuff still needs work. And lets face it, we all know that once it goes live odds of it changing in the next year, if ever, are incredibly bad.</blockquote><p>This +1.  Misama is extremely low damage, even for a group proc, and now you want 2 points spent in it? RIIIGGGHHTT.... Then you nerf the other "endline" that was actually useful by over 50% so if an AE encounter ever does come up we can't capitalize on that fact. </p><p>Unless there is going to be significant AE content then the AE line just isnt' very good.  It's great for heavy linked encounters like the Bouncers, but how much of that are we going to see?</p><p>The single target-line has potential, but even if we spec that way we are still going to be doing less dps than Wiz / Sins/ BLs.</p><p>Right now our options seem to be 1. Take the left-side to minimize our loses on single target encounters but gain very little for linked / AE encounters. or B.  Gain almost nothing for single-target encounters, which increases the gap between us and other single-focuses classes and gain a decent amount of AE potential, which apparently is sparse/ non-</p><p><span style="font-size: 12.0pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA;">existent </span>in the upcoming content.</p><p>You have plenty of testers here who not only have taken the time to test the content but who know their classes EXTREMELY well.  They have offered suggestion after suggestion in order to help you balance abilities and to keep us  happy.  Please listen.  Your player base is continuing to diminish, so please keep those of us who are still around happy.</p>

Enotirab 11-06-2012 08:15 PM

<p><cite>[email protected]_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>also getting apoc to actually get below .75 cast would be cool. its hard to test stuff when its not working.</p></blockquote><p>This is currently working correctly for me.</p>

Piropiro 11-06-2012 08:30 PM

<p><cite>Enotirab wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected]_old wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>also getting apoc to actually get below .75 cast would be cool. its hard to test stuff when its not working.</p></blockquote><p>This is currently working correctly for me.</p></blockquote><p>Sweet, they must of ninja fixed it in todays update then. I know it definitly wasn't working yesterday. soooo, onto the list of other suggestions and issues that have been so far ignored.</p>

le Rêveur 11-07-2012 06:55 AM

<p>blah blah blah, wizards are so op, blah blah blah... seriously now tell us why every top raid guild has one or two locks and just 1 if any wiz ? Locks already have it easier than wiz atm, fusion OP ? lol fusion is a 60° frontal cone, short range, let's change your aoe so they are the same ok ? About fusion resetting, it's defo not resetting 24% of the time, but lower already.</p><p>You win parses anytime on ranged fights or the lock is just bad. </p><p>Maybe 1 wizard out of 10 is parsing as he should/could be. There are many more parsing locks.</p><p>Both classes don't compare when it's about getting the best of it, so having it easy is not enough... you want even more edge ? lol leave wizards alone.</p>

Enotirab 11-07-2012 02:02 PM

<p><cite>le Rêveur wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>blah blah blah, wizards are so op, blah blah blah... seriously now tell us why every top raid guild has one or two locks and just 1 if any wiz ? Locks already have it easier than wiz atm, fusion OP ? lol fusion is a 60° frontal cone, short range, let's change your aoe so they are the same ok ? About fusion resetting, it's defo not resetting 24% of the time, but lower already.</p><p>You win parses anytime on ranged fights or the lock is just bad. </p><p>Maybe 1 wizard out of 10 is parsing as he should/could be. There are many more parsing locks.</p><p>Both classes don't compare when it's about getting the best of it, so having it easy is not enough... you want even more edge ? lol leave wizards alone.</p></blockquote><p>No one here is asking for anything to be done to wizards.  We instead want something done to locks to keep us in balance.  I play and have raided on both classes so I can tell you with a great deal of certainty that wizards are just as capable of parsing as locks.  We still need to get in close to parse well and ALL of our true AEs require us to be in close, unlike E'Ci. </p><p>Both Wizards and Warlocks have their difficults and areas of weakness and all any of us want is to be balanced and competitive.  If you are having trouble competing with your warlocks then perhaps you need to take a look at some other factors like group setup, encounter type and skill level.  Assuming locks have it easy just makes you look ignorant.</p>

daray 11-07-2012 02:42 PM

<p>Both classes have largely the same issues with the new prestige additions (and to a certain extent, the existing ones too), because, well, they basically gave us the same thing (particularly the new right side stuff). I have outlined the wizard-specific issues in the other thread, but what is equally applicable to both classes is what Arabel outlined earlier - namely the negative effect on the flow of combat with the way that the right side is implemented atm - it just doesn't make logical sense.</p>

Shotneedle 11-07-2012 03:27 PM

<p><p><cite>Konc3pt wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm not trying to go off topic, but if you're having trouble knowing if you're in range or not to use fusion / triple thunderclap etc, hotbar Brock's Thermal Shocker. Its range is 10m and lights up when you're in range. And you can use Catalogue Creature for judging 15m, iirc. </p><p>Back on topic now. Frozen Burst really needs to be changed. It honestly should be Ball of Fire with no health restrictions, and balanced with ways that Daray suggested. </p><p>The middle endline as it stands is hardly worth the 2 points. I'd personally, as well as others, would like to see fusion, blast of devastation, and firestorm changed into targeted AE's with this endline (like E'ci). There's really no reason for having sorcs play with a scout mentality just to compete. </p><p>Fire Chain's damage is pretty meh. It should do more, although it is a rather boring mechanic. </p></blockquote></p><p>This times 10. Except Cataclysm, Rift, and BoD. And Distortion (or Absolution) instead of Ball of Fire.</p>

Piropiro 11-07-2012 05:01 PM

<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Konc3pt wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'm not trying to go off topic, but if you're having trouble knowing if you're in range or not to use fusion / triple thunderclap etc, hotbar Brock's Thermal Shocker. Its range is 10m and lights up when you're in range. And you can use Catalogue Creature for judging 15m, iirc. </p><p>Back on topic now. Frozen Burst really needs to be changed. It honestly should be Ball of Fire with no health restrictions, and balanced with ways that Daray suggested. </p><p>The middle endline as it stands is hardly worth the 2 points. I'd personally, as well as others, would like to see fusion, blast of devastation, and firestorm changed into targeted AE's with this endline (like E'ci). There's really no reason for having sorcs play with a scout mentality just to compete. </p><p>Fire Chain's damage is pretty meh. It should do more, although it is a rather boring mechanic. </p></blockquote><p>This times 10. Except Cataclysm, Rift, and BoD. And Distortion (or Absolution) instead of Ball of Fire.</p></blockquote><p>I dont know if i m really a fan of this concept unless it offers the spells as alternate options. Reason being i'd still like the option to precast the rifts etc, and cast cataclysms and BoD's without having to have targets of a mob, or worry about if the one im targeting dies, i have to retarget and cast. Those options are better suited for greens not blues already. I also am not a fan at all of giving that option to wizards. It's more class fitting for warlocks, and im against making them anymore alike than they already are.</p><p>Would love to see them make the cone on Fusion the same as BoD tho. Given the 3 targets that'd remove a lot of its issues w/o changing it to much, and do this not in the middle line, but just straight up change the spell.</p><p>Would also like them to adjust Focused Casting and Manaburn in the manner i mentioned on the wizard form earlier as a straight change.</p><p>Middles for warlock have been discussed extensively, and im a big fan of removing the toggle on the mythical, and making it applied straight up as an 2 point option. For the other middle giving an alternative to acid storm, that works like apocalypse damage wise, but in the fashion of E'ci blue spell cast wise. This also being worth 2 points.</p><p>I'm sure wizards have a plethora of ideas for theirs, but the changes i mentioned for them are more things that i believe should just be done, not prestige point required.</p>

Mogrim 11-07-2012 05:29 PM

<p>I just have the feeling they're "done" with warlock changes from now to the expansion, and that we can pretty much forget about any more submissions breaking through... :-/</p>

Piropiro 11-07-2012 05:36 PM

<p><cite>Mogrim wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I just have the feeling they're "done" with warlock changes from now to the expansion, and that we can pretty much forget about any more submissions breaking through... :-/</p></blockquote><p>Probably. But im a cubs fan, im used to hoping but assuming defeat.</p><p>Also i forgot, adding 2 ticks so we aren't ut dependant would also make anice middle option.</p>

Shotneedle 11-07-2012 05:42 PM

<p>No it wouldn't. You'd still be UT dependent, you'd just have two more ticks.</p>

Mogrim 11-07-2012 05:45 PM

<p>I'd like the myth click fix. But I'd prefer for that to just be fixed, not an AA option. But I'd take it either way. Otherwise, how about the 2-point option for Wizards and Warlocks allowing for spell triples?</p>

Piropiro 11-07-2012 05:48 PM

<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>No it wouldn't. You'd still be UT dependent, you'd just have two more ticks.</p></blockquote><p>not if they changed ut to sda like tc, which is what i'd love to see. dps of a warlock without ut and dps of a wizard without tc is a joke of a difference. our classes are balanced with the thought that a warlock will have ut...thats pretty bs.</p>

Piropiro 11-07-2012 05:49 PM

<p><cite>Mogrim wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'd like the myth click fix. But I'd prefer for that to just be fixed, not an AA option. But I'd take it either way. Otherwise, how about the 2-point option for Wizards and Warlocks allowing for spell triples?</p></blockquote><p>why not just lift the stupid cap. really, how often will it happen. small chances for wizards during tw, and when tw/fc overlap for warlocks, we dont get shafted. its as stupid as manaburn with all the power drains, just adjust it and be done with it. its not gonna be a huge alteration but it will stop screwing us.</p>

Chronus1 11-07-2012 07:04 PM

<p><span > If everything is balanced as intended, classes with two DPS lines should always find that choosing one line yields a greater output. - Xelgad.</span></p><p>It's not balanced as intended then because I will certainly be taking double conversions as a warlock.</p>

Piropiro 11-07-2012 08:18 PM

<p>then why not just give us everything good in one line instead of half @$$ing them both. The problem is, neither line is really good. choosing either line screws u over in one area, without yeilding much benefit as compensation.</p>

Enotirab 11-08-2012 02:11 PM

<p><cite>Chronus1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span> If everything is balanced as intended, classes with two DPS lines should always find that choosing one line yields a greater output. - Xelgad.</span></p><p>It's not balanced as intended then because I will certainly be taking double conversions as a warlock.</p></blockquote><p>^^THIS.  Currently neither line is worth investing in completely, and neither "end-line" is worth taking at all.  Noxious attunment WAS worth taking, but you nerfed that right into uselessness and Miasma is just insulting.</p><p>There have been so many suggestions here on how to fix our stuff, so please take that into consideration.  We aren't asking for anything that isn't fair or balanced.</p>

Mogrim 11-09-2012 07:44 PM

<p>Unless some of these changes go through, prepare to main change or bench. Ran some zoneage and its bad. The raw #'s suggest to us being t2 dps with the same utility of t1 classes. Summoners will have both more utility and dps.Wizards will be better single target AND non-linked AOE. We'll have a chance to shine on massive linked green encounters until raid dps increases to where they melt too fast for us to matter on them either. Looking like I'm going to play my warden as of the xpac.</p>

kenzar 11-09-2012 09:20 PM

<p>I like the left side given the Content, but the middle endline is still really bad. Many possible changes have been listed that would be viable options.</p><p>Taking the single target convertion off the myth buff</p><p>Adding 2 ticks to DoTs and changing UT to SDA</p><p>Adding duration to focus casting</p><p>Even if you want to add something to an exsisting buff, why not a group + to pot or cb</p><p>And for the love of everything is there any way we can get the proc on Dark Aggravation changed to work like the sin's Exploit Weakness.</p>

Thalzokal 11-09-2012 10:16 PM

<p><cite>Mogrim wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Unless some of these changes go through, prepare to main change or bench. Ran some zoneage and its bad. The raw #'s suggest to us being t2 dps with the same utility of t1 classes. Summoners will have both more utility and dps.Wizards will be better single target AND non-linked AOE. We'll have a chance to shine on massive linked green encounters until raid dps increases to where they melt too fast for us to matter on them either. Looking like I'm going to play my warden as of the xpac.</p></blockquote><p>This is what I have been afraid of for some time. Please dev's, look at this thread and bring us back up to where we should be</p>

kingela 11-10-2012 07:08 AM

<p>played warlock for over 6 year i guess its time to change this new prestige is bad all the way</p>

avsmw 11-10-2012 06:16 PM

<p>Is there just one reason to play warlock instead of wizard? I mean, playing a wizard with UT instead of TC is still fine, warlocks are worse on ST and on blue AE-fights, and this new prestige lines makes them even worse in this comparison; green AE-content in the upcoming expansion, as people say, is lacking, and 2 wizards in a group means Ice Lash non-stop, which is quite nice, while the warlock has no utlilty at all. They want to eliminate warlocks from the game completely?</p>

MeitsMe 11-10-2012 08:15 PM

<p><cite>avsmw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Is there just one reason to play warlock instead of wizard? I mean, playing a wizard with UT instead of TC is still fine, warlocks are worse on ST and on blue AE-fights, and this new prestige lines makes them even worse in this comparison; green AE-content in the upcoming expansion, as people say, is lacking, and 2 wizards in a group means Ice Lash non-stop, which is quite nice, while the warlock has no utlilty at all. They want to eliminate warlocks from the game completely?</p></blockquote><p>lol go for it see how long u last before changing back to lock</p>

kenzar 11-10-2012 08:22 PM

<p><p>The middle endline still doesnt feel like an endline should to me, but over all I dont think the left side is a bad option given the content is so single target based in raids.</p><p>I realize most warlocks always want to see themselves as the dominate force when it comes to aoe fights so its hard for most people to look at something that is geared toward a single target spec. But what good is it really to have every tool in the world for aoe dps when the content doesnt contain many AoE fights?</p><p>When I look at the bottom right side all I see is aids, I really hate the idea that to gain any real benefit you have to get to 60 increments of the proc which takes more than a minute if not 2 at times, and once you are there you can either maintain it(assuming your raid moves quickly) for the nice casting speed on apoc/rift or you can choose to blow it all on a one shot spell to just start over again.</p><p>The left side however actually gives you some utility with the 18% to beneficial duration, pretty much perma 33% pot, and better cast times on apoc and distortion. Not to mention the flames upgrade up top is a pretty amazing spell once the mob starts losing health as well as getting pot instead of CB in the conversion.</p><p>Last night running around solo I could get myself over 500% pot with sanguine, the voided proc, and a few gear procs up. I also like the 1min 11sec sanguine and 11.8 FC before you add the troub buff.</p><p>I hate giving up void damnation as much as the next person, but if the only thing that I and ever going to use it on is adds that are alive for 5 seconds, whats the point?</p><p>All I am saying is look at single target potential. I don't know what kind of specs you guys are trying out, but going down the left I certainly dont parse like a T2.</p></p>

Chronus1 11-11-2012 11:38 AM

<p>Thing is yeh we could spec down left side and miss out on eternal damnation and do ok on single target. But the inherently more single target based wizard can get nearly the same benefit by doing the exact same thing.</p><p>I'm going to be that token warlock who keeps playing one because he's too lazy/bad to betray to wizard and I'm going to have a double conversion spec for aoe fights while my guild can't kill the adds in 5 seconds and a left side spec for all the other fights if it lasts as is.</p><p>Gift being maintained would give everybody an extra second every 45s would help. Mythical buff converting to blue targeted aoe so we don't have to click it on and off would be great too but even it being instant cast/recovery would help some.</p><p>But really it's a sad day, we were up to par with the plaguebringer changes in DoV, we got a bit of an advantage with the GU60 focused casting and then eternal damnation matched eci's in my opinion. But this just pushes us back to only truely being worth taking over a summoner/wiz on fights with lots of green linked adds. I'm hoping that there are some in the new expac that we didn't kill (leaves 2-4 portal drinal, final named ST, HM final and imp in altar) and feel good knowing that there's still some left on the mobs in PoW that my guild hasn't killed.</p><p>Though I don't believe that this will be solved now, hopefully somthing can be done next GU or next expac.</p>

elaot 11-11-2012 10:30 PM

<p>so i was looking closer at the dmg on the right hand prestige line and noticed that the spell efficency of caustic detonation seems low.</p><p>tool tip shows for me toxic assault 26707 - 42444 dmg w/ a .5 cast and .25 recovery leading to a 35609 - 56592 dps for casting the spell (crit not included)</p><p>while caustic detonation shows 8899 - 14141 (per target) w/ a 1 sec cast and .25 recov leading to 7119 - 11313 dps per target .    that means this spell is only worth casting if i can hit 5 targets min (and only barly if you are adding proc's in from the extra hits :/  )?  i personaly have seen maybe 2 trash encounters w/ this kind of target potential in beta testing.</p><p>this wouldn't bother me IF this was a automatic option and not costing extra points to aquire.  one more example of things added that in real game play are not worth having/using.</p><p>i also did some testing and is it intended that miasma can only proc off the direct target?  this really limits the usefulness of the ability. the increase to the damage and proc rate did help alot. if the proc targer limit was removed OR it was set to let secondary linked targets/ ae'd targets to trigger the abilty much like gift of bert. or many other procs i think many would be much happier and might really make it a true endline.</p><p>not that i think any of this will be addressed but feedback before release is what beta is about</p>


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