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-   -   Troubador Adjustments (https://archive.eq2wire.com//showthread.php?t=506890)

Xelgad 09-14-2011 08:16 PM

<p>Hello Troubadors!We have finally completed the first draft of our Troubador revamp and would like to get your feedback on these ideas. Our primary goal is to give Troubadors more options during combat that can have a clear effect on the fight. Viewed individually, some of the changes may be considered minor, but we hope all these small and moderate changes will add up to a much more dynamic and interesting class.</p><ul><li>Countersong no longer has an immunity timer. It now lasts for 12 seconds, does not dispel when an ability is used and reduces the target's AE Auto Attack Chance by up to 100% as well as ability damage.</li></ul><p>We really like the potential Countersong has to make an obvious difference in group and raid content, and we're trying yet another implementation to see if it can reach that potential more often.  One note: Potency is currently calculated at the beginning of the cast, so if you wait until you see a casting bar to use Countersong, it will not take effect on that ability.</p><ul><li>Vexing Verses now also deals minor damage and reduces the target's casting speed by up to 32%.</li><li>Breathtaking Bellow can no longer be resisted. Its radius has been increased to 15 meters.</li><li>Demoralizing Processional now also reduces the target encounter's primary attributes in addition to its offensive skills.</li><li>Enhance: Demoralizing Processional now also improves the attribute reduction.</li></ul><p>We made some minor changes here so that these abilities have more effect. It is difficult to tell exactly how much effect attribute debuffs have, but at least now Demoralizing Processional will always make some difference.</p><ul><li>Sandra's Deafening Strike now restores some of the power it drained to the Troubador.</li><li>Tap Essence now affects the encounter and the group. The damage have been reduced.</li><li>Painful Lamentations has had its damage increased.</li><li>Thunderous Overture is now a PBAoE that affects up to 8 targets.  The reuse has been increased to 10 seconds.</li><li>Perfect Shrill has had its damage increased.</li></ul><p>We wanted to give the class a little more control over power as well as obviously mixing in new encounter and area of effect abilities. Rather than going over all the numbers here, let's wait until they make it to test and see how they play out there. Some individual spells are going to do less DPS in some situations, but others were buffed to more than compensate.</p><ul><li>Enhance: Rejuvenating Celebration now also improves the maximum health granted by Rejuvenating Celebration.</li><li>Raxxyl's Rousing Tune now also improves agility.</li><li>Jester's Cap no longer has an immunity timer. </li></ul><p>Some minor buff changes. More control with Jester's Cap instead of having immunity timers dictate the target.</p><ul><li>Demoralization is now "Abhorrent Verse." Abhorrent Verse transfers 50% of the threat from the Troubador's group to the target for a short time. This does not transfer threat from fighters.</li></ul><p>Hopefully this new advancement will give you another way to make a definite impact on the group or raid, should you choose to pick it up.</p>

Raviel 09-14-2011 08:26 PM

<p>finally, a blue aoe. countersong change looks nice, cant really comment on the rest without seeing numbers on test. Breathtaking Bellow could use some damage, imo, as its still not worth casting even if its unresistable</p>

aislynn00 09-14-2011 08:50 PM

<p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Demoralization is now "Abhorrent Verse." Abhorrent Verse transfers 50% of the threat from the Troubador's group to the target for a short time. This does not transfer threat from fighters.</p><p>Hopefully this new advancement will give you another way to make a definite impact on the group or raid, should you choose to pick it up.</p></blockquote><p>I presume this isn't affected by the 50% hate transferral cap (Abhorrent Verse as described affords 300% hate transferral) and that the target is "raid friend"?  If so, sounds like a nice bit of extra utility.</p>

aislynn00 09-14-2011 08:59 PM

<p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><ul><li>Countersong no longer has an immunity timer. It now lasts for 12 seconds, does not dispel when an ability is used and reduces the target's AE Auto Attack Chance by up to 100% as well as ability damage.</li></ul><p>We really like the potential Countersong has to make an obvious difference in group and raid content, and we're trying yet another implementation to see if it can reach that potential more often.  One note: Potency is currently calculated at the beginning of the cast, so if you wait until you see a casting bar to use Countersong, it will not take effect on that ability.</p></blockquote><p>Since you can't use Countersong against an AE that is already being cast and AE timers often fluctuate more than 12 sec either way, the short duration makes it rather hard to get anything useful out of the ability on raids. </p><p>I think turning Countersong into a small (say, 5% - 10%) but <em>maintainable</em> Potency debuff would be much better.</p>

Xenxex 09-14-2011 08:59 PM

<p>Nice changes for a start. However going to have to seriously /hate all over PBAoE if its troub only since every "bard" in general has been asking for blue AEs since god knows how long.</p><p>Give them SDA built into a CA, similar to how Rhythm blade currently works.</p>

Anestacia 09-14-2011 09:20 PM

<p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><ul><li>Jester's Cap no longer has an immunity timer. </li></ul></blockquote><p>Thank you for all these changes and a huge thnk you for the Jcap immunity change!</p>

Writer Cal 09-14-2011 09:32 PM

<p>It sounds like some really good stuff in theory.  Will have to see how it all plays out in action.  Hopefully it'll even get me wanting to play my troub again!</p><p>The blue AoE and the change to JCap are pure win!</p>

tfetterman 09-14-2011 10:09 PM

<p>Everything sounds great, but where is this effect that is going to be better than an OP myth?</p>

Shotneedle 09-14-2011 10:33 PM

<p>JCap immunity removal is dumb. I believe it's there so troubs don't pick their two favorite targets and continually cast it on them. Now instead of it being rotated around 8 targets, it'll be locked on two. And those two are like to be scouts, because mages are all capped on cast/recovery/reuse, so I can basically say bye to ever seeing it as a mage.</p><p>Raxxyl's change is also meh, but I can see the reasoning since mage groups usually include a scout dps now. I'd say to balance it out you should drop the AGI amount on their self buff to the same amount that dirges get.</p><p>Also, to the guy saying AOEs aren't static, only two (three) T9 raid mobs I can recall that have AOEs that aren't on static timers and speed up the longer you fight. Mosassus in Underfoot Depths and the spider (both modes) in Sullon's Spire.</p>

tfetterman 09-15-2011 12:03 AM

<p>Can you make Chaos Anthem debuff something other than WIS?  STA would be AWESOME.  The only time that's any good is if you are fighting a healer mob.  How often does that happen?</p>

tfetterman 09-15-2011 12:14 AM

<p>If you are going to remove the jcap immunity timer, why not just cut the abilities in half...25 reuse, 7.5 cast speed, 7.5 recovery, 5 CB...and make it a static group buff.</p>

tfetterman 09-15-2011 12:25 AM

<p>I never really have any power issues unless the mob has a power drain ability.  What would be really nice, Engergizing Balad groupwide instead of adding a power restoration to Sandra's Deafening Strike.  Dirges get a groupwide rez, so why not?</p>

Trynt 09-15-2011 01:22 AM

<p><cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you are going to remove the jcap immunity timer, why not just cut the abilities in half...25 reuse, 7.5 cast speed, 7.5 recovery, 5 CB...and make it a static group buff.</p></blockquote><p>Because jcap is raidwide, of course.</p>

Trynt 09-15-2011 01:25 AM

<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>JCap immunity removal is dumb. I believe it's there so troubs don't pick their two favorite targets and continually cast it on them. Now instead of it being rotated around 8 targets, it'll be locked on two. And those two are like to be scouts, because mages are all capped on cast/recovery/reuse, so I can basically say bye to ever seeing it as a mage.</p></blockquote><p>Agreed.  The immunity removal is silly.</p>

Gungo 09-15-2011 02:25 AM

<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Demoralization is now "Abhorrent Verse." Abhorrent Verse transfers 50% of the threat from the Troubador's group to the target for a short time. This does not transfer threat from fighters.</p><p>Hopefully this new advancement will give you another way to make a definite impact on the group or raid, should you choose to pick it up.</p></blockquote><p>I presume this isn't affected by the 50% hate transferral cap (Abhorrent Verse as described affords 300% hate transferral) and that the target is "raid friend"?  If so, sounds like a nice bit of extra utility.</p></blockquote><p>I one point i thought certain abilities could overcap and the cap for hate transfers was 50% flat. But now I wonder if the 50% transfer cap only means 50% transfer cap PER PERSON.</p>

tfetterman 09-15-2011 03:37 AM

<p><cite>Trynt wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you are going to remove the jcap immunity timer, why not just cut the abilities in half...25 reuse, 7.5 cast speed, 7.5 recovery, 5 CB...and make it a static group buff.</p></blockquote><p>Because jcap is raidwide, of course.</p></blockquote><p>I understand it can be used raidwide, but this will change that.  It removes the silliness of removing the immunity.  If you remove the timer, it will just be two people getting it anyway.  Why not just give it to the group and call it a day?</p>

Davngr1 09-15-2011 03:43 AM

<p>cool changes so far but could you give troubs some sort of melee skill/accuracy buff?  or maybe make them a totaly range class by giving them some sort of bonus for using a bow like rangers get, of course on a smaller scale.    i think making dirge melee with all the scouts/tanks and troubs ranged with all the mages would work.    </p><p> one last thing..   is there anyway you could come up with a way to make troubadors better equiped for 6 man group buffing?     i mean they do a good job of buffing the mages but their tank buffs are pretty useless compared to dirges.  i think making dirge and troub tank buffs equal but different would be cool, i see you're tying to do that with the hate transfer but i think there's room a another one or two.   </p><p>  also the accuracy buff i mention should be for the troub only not the group members since that would be taking away from the dirges role.</p><p>  ps. don't EVER give dirges an AOE!  just for the lulz..</p>

Davngr1 09-15-2011 03:47 AM

<p>why is removing the immunity silly?</p><p> every one is rocking enough reuse to pretty much render the spell almost useless other then the 10% cb and recovery(for some classes).      yes classes with 85%+ reuse should not take priority over classes with 30% reuse, it would be silly.</p>

feldon30 09-15-2011 04:09 AM

<p><cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If you are going to remove the jcap immunity timer, why not just cut the abilities in half...25 reuse, 7.5 cast speed, 7.5 recovery, 5 CB...and make it a static group buff.</p></blockquote><p>Because then you would be taking away another "thing to do" during groups/raids for Troubadors.</p><p>The problem with Bards is, they're getting to be dull to play. They have very little to actually do during a group/raid. It's mostly buff/debuff, then DPS. There isn't really anything "heroic" or critical that bards get to do DURING a group/raid that influences the success of the group/raid. Bards should be instrumental (pun intended) in how the fight is going, with some crazy abilities to turn the tide. Instead they've become a DPS scout class with a few buffs/debuffs.</p><p>I suggested in another thread some cool ideas that could be done for bards (and I've added a few):</p><ul><li>Grant another player a special ability (heal, taunt, de-taunt, 15% Crit/Crit Mit buff, Intercept-like ability)</li><li>Swap agro with the tank (would then need to give troubs a rescue-like ability)</li><li>Swap health between the bard and a groupmate.</li><li>Reduce the damage of the next AoE by 30%</li><li>Extend the range of a groupmate's weapons for a short time</li><li>Change the damage output type of a groupmate to spell damage, elemental, noxious, or melee damage</li></ul><p>There are so many possible things that could be done that wouldn't be overpowered yet would make bards more interesting, and valuable to certain types of tanks, healers, etc.</p><p>And so you don't think I am talking out of my {donkey}, I have a 90 dirge that I have done *some* grouping/raiding with.</p>

tfetterman 09-15-2011 04:14 AM

<p>If you actually read the changes, you would see that they are planning on giving us more to do. </p>

SOE-MOD-02 09-15-2011 04:19 AM

This post has moved: <a href="/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=499962&post_id=5630655" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=49996...post_id=5630655</a> Insults are not necessary or permitted on these forums.

Xenxex 09-15-2011 04:32 AM

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>cool changes so far but could you give troubs some sort of melee skill/accuracy buff?  or maybe make them a totaly range class by giving them some sort of bonus for using a bow like rangers get, of course on a smaller scale.    i think making dirge melee with all the scouts/tanks and troubs ranged with all the mages would work.    </p><p> one last thing..   is there anyway you could come up with a way to make troubadors better equiped for 6 man group buffing?     i mean they do a good job of buffing the mages but their tank buffs are pretty useless compared to dirges.  i think making dirge and troub tank buffs equal but different would be cool, i see you're tying to do that with the hate transfer but i think there's room a another one or two.   </p><p>  also the accuracy buff i mention should be for the troub only not the group members since that would be taking away from the dirges role.</p><p>  ps. don't EVER give dirges an AOE!  just for the lulz..</p></blockquote><p>True, then we can make angry post on how its unfair that after 6 years bards finally get a blue AE but its going only to troubs - totally logical! Lets fix troubs so they do more dmg by giving them what they both want instead of redoing some simple mechanic changes or buffs. They should give you SDA, or a buff that makes all your spells hit for double dmg for a period of time. However they choose to redo some of your abilities as a form of a bandaid - sure its preliminary but its just a baby step.</p>

Writer Cal 09-15-2011 04:51 AM

<p>I really don't mean to be offensive, but the posts from Dirges here remind me a whole lot of all the threads for Ranger improvements over the past few years where Assassins, who were so far ahead of Rangers that they openly posted about how much better Assassins were vs Rangers at the time, insisted that they should get equal boosts whenever any proposed boosts to Rangers were mentioned.</p><p>A decrease in Agi on the Troub self-buff to "balance" Agi being added to Raxxyl's?  A demand for a blue AoE when Dirges have done waaaay more DPS than Troubs and are preferred by more of the classes in the game?  Are Troubs allowed to have anything equally as cool as what Dirges already have?</p>

rvt 09-15-2011 05:59 AM

<p>1. jc immunity removal is cool, we have dirge's gravitas and shammie's ROA, so I don't think JC will be locked on 1-2 players within the raid. Besides, good troubs know who to JC during certain encounters.</p><p>2. I guess some of the changes will make troubs even more powerful in multiple encounters, we already outparse dirges on them.</p><p>3. Giving troubs more power control would certainly balance the illus impotency (compared to coercers), so 2 ducks killed in 1 shot <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>4. The fun of the class is that is half-scout, half mage, personally I would be disappointed if we would turn ranged.</p><p>5. TO becoming BAoe and 10 secs reuse makes total sense, its the only CA I dislike casting, since has long casting time and depends preponderantly and more than other CA's on recovery, hence messing up autos.</p><p>6. SOE could change only 1 thing and if our dps gets comparable to dirges, I am happy.</p>

tfetterman 09-15-2011 06:07 AM

<p><cite>rvt wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>1. jc immunity removal is cool, we have dirge's gravitas and shammie's ROA, so I don't think JC will be locked on 1-2 players within the raid. Besides, good troubs know who to JC during certain encounters.</p><p>2. I guess some of the changes will make troubs even more powerful in multiple encounters, we already outparse dirges on them.</p><p>3. Giving troubs more power control would certainly balance the illus impotency (compared to coercers), so 2 ducks killed in 1 shot <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p><p>4. The fun of the class is that is half-scout, half mage, personally I would be disappointed if we would turn ranged.</p><p>5. TO becoming BAoe and 10 secs reuse makes total sense, its the only CA I dislike casting, since has long casting time and depends preponderantly and more than other CA's on recovery, hence messing up autos.</p><p>6. SOE could change only 1 thing and if our dps gets comparable to dirges, I am happy.</p></blockquote><p>Given your point number six, I wouldn't mind just getting the dirge's myth effect and call it a day.</p>

feldon30 09-15-2011 06:19 AM

<p><cite>tfetterman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Suggestion four...read the proposed changes..really?  You had to write this?<p>Suggestion six...what would this accomplish other than waste dev time and give you something to write?</p></blockquote><p>They were ideas to try something different, to make the class more interesting to make it more than a garden variety Scout with a few buffs.</p><p>I'm a writer. Obviously you're not a fan. <img src="../images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" /></p>

Xenxex 09-15-2011 07:28 AM

<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I really don't mean to be offensive, but the posts from Dirges here remind me a whole lot of all the threads for Ranger improvements over the past few years where Assassins, who were so far ahead of Rangers that they openly posted about how much better Assassins were vs Rangers at the time, insisted that they should get equal boosts whenever any proposed boosts to Rangers were mentioned.</p><p>A decrease in Agi on the Troub self-buff to "balance" Agi being added to Raxxyl's?  A demand for a blue AoE when Dirges have done waaaay more DPS than Troubs and are preferred by more of the classes in the game?  Are Troubs allowed to have anything equally as cool as what Dirges already have?</p></blockquote><p>Anyways the point isnt to rile all you guys up over Dirge opinions. Honestly your class is unfortunate because of the lack of forsight on SoEs behalf when it came to designing you and your myth. Troub seems like a class built around self sacrifice. Every troub whos asked about DPS tips always says how they spec/adorn to help everyone but themselves. Troub needs AA to boost their personal dps more so that the group of hungry mages eyeing them down for all their worth will get what they want while the troub can parse like hes not invisible. When dirge spec our AA everything we put into us ultimately boost our DPS just as much as those around us. Good troubs can parse over 180k on burn fights as is, while some dirges can exceed 250k. </p><p>While being in the mage group some troubs try to take Deadly Dance which is lame b/c the actual range on the dmg modifier is heavily limited and thus does not always reach the mages in the group. That aside alot of problems could be solved by giving troubs a spell dmg modifier on their myth similar to how dirge myth ups our melee dps. </p><p>Point is that countless methods to improve troubs exist but dev's are approaching it in a method that seems wrong. If you think things like JC immunity removal and having a blue AE will put you on even footing then so be it.</p>

tfetterman 09-15-2011 09:44 AM

<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I really don't mean to be offensive, but the posts from Dirges here remind me a whole lot of all the threads for Ranger improvements over the past few years where Assassins, who were so far ahead of Rangers that they openly posted about how much better Assassins were vs Rangers at the time, insisted that they should get equal boosts whenever any proposed boosts to Rangers were mentioned.</p><p>A decrease in Agi on the Troub self-buff to "balance" Agi being added to Raxxyl's?  A demand for a blue AoE when Dirges have done waaaay more DPS than Troubs and are preferred by more of the classes in the game?  Are Troubs allowed to have anything equally as cool as what Dirges already have?</p></blockquote><p>Anyways the point isnt to rile all you guys up over Dirge opinions. Honestly your class is unfortunate because of the lack of forsight on SoEs behalf when it came to designing you and your myth. Troub seems like a class built around self sacrifice. Every troub whos asked about DPS tips always says how they spec/adorn to help everyone but themselves. Troub needs AA to boost their personal dps more so that the group of hungry mages eyeing them down for all their worth will get what they want while the troub can parse like hes not invisible. When dirge spec our AA everything we put into us ultimately boost our DPS just as much as those around us. Good troubs can parse over 180k on burn fights as is, while some dirges can exceed 250k. </p><p>While being in the mage group some troubs try to take Deadly Dance which is lame b/c the actual range on the dmg modifier is heavily limited and thus does not always reach the mages in the group. That aside alot of problems could be solved by giving troubs a spell dmg modifier on their myth similar to how dirge myth ups our melee dps. </p><p>Point is that countless methods to improve troubs exist but dev's are approaching it in a method that seems wrong. If you think things like JC immunity removal and having a blue AE will put you on even footing then so be it.</p></blockquote><p>Finally, a dirge that gets it!  The changes they are talking about isn't going to make the class any more fun to play or really provide any huge boost in dps.  I still think they should just give us the dirge myth proc and call it a day.</p>

Onoddil 09-15-2011 09:55 AM

I agree. While these changes are all nice, they're just things that are long overdue to fix things that are broken; they're not a revamp, or an overhaul, or a fix to the imbalance of troub/dirge/whatever dps potential. I don't want the copy/paste dirge myth though, because that doesn't seem fitting with the class... I'd much rather have max spell damage, which while not adding as much dps (due to not affecting our autos) will affect spells which we buff, and perhaps procs (not sure how that would be calculated)... If it max damaged spell procs it'd be quite nice, tbh. Spell double attack would be nice as well (perhaps adding it to the two MA items in the STA line, so we can gain 20spell ma, and mages can get 10 from fortissimo, making it more relevant again?). At present these changes are too balanced (Tap being encounter but its damage being reduced) to "fix" the class. It's nice, but it's only a start. Ono

tfetterman 09-15-2011 10:15 AM

<p><cite>Onoddil wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I agree. While these changes are all nice, they're just things that are long overdue to fix things that are broken; they're not a revamp, or an overhaul, or a fix to the imbalance of troub/dirge/whatever dps potential. I don't want the copy/paste dirge myth though, because that doesn't seem fitting with the class... I'd much rather have max spell damage, which while not adding as much dps (due to not affecting our autos) will affect spells which we buff, and perhaps procs (not sure how that would be calculated)... If it max damaged spell procs it'd be quite nice, tbh. Spell double attack would be nice as well (perhaps adding it to the two MA items in the STA line, so we can gain 20spell ma, and mages can get 10 from fortissimo, making it more relevant again?). At present these changes are too balanced (Tap being encounter but its damage being reduced) to "fix" the class. It's nice, but it's only a start. Ono</blockquote><p>Spell double attack is worthless to a troub.  If they aren't going to make all of our CAs spells, then max spell damage is worthless too.  The programming for something like this for spells would be way more difficult than the melee proc.  That's why it should be a bard proc and not just a dirge proc.  We are scouts after all.  Don't forget that.  Your largest amount of damage comes from your weapons.</p>


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