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-   -   Focused Minion (and other summoner changes) (https://archive.eq2wire.com//showthread.php?t=503990)

Iacon 07-28-2011 04:40 PM

<p>Most of the changes are fantastic, but I think most summoners would rather keep the Spell Double Attack for our pets than have an AA that increases another AA that no one really wanted. Good work on the changes otherwise, and I hope we get our pet SDA back. Thanks.</p>

Xillean 07-28-2011 05:22 PM

<p>Please pleae pelase Xelgad reverse this change on Focused Minion. The changes you made other then this are ubber I love them all, you guys have really made the summoner tree a vaild choice in many aeras instead of everyone spec this way, but why take away our spell da? please give it back, we dont need even more of a hate transfer the new wis line is more then enough by itself without changing that.</p><p>With the huge curves past 100 cast its not liek we are going to be getting ungodly amounts of sda, please let us know if youll at least consider this.</p><p>Another option would be to change the mages giving 5 pot to the grp in Teamwork to 5 SDA. That would make nice benefit to a mage grp while giving us some of our sda back.</p>

Trensharo 07-28-2011 05:38 PM

<p>How about they just put the SDA back in Focused Minion.  I'm all for buffing others but there's a limit.  I'm not losing 12.8% SDA just to boost a Wizard up to ~26% SDA given what they already have.  They simply need to give the SDA back.  Making it a gorup buff may work well for Conjies that get TC, but my pet doesn't get DoT ticks from UT.  I want the SDA back.</p><p>They added so much threat management AAs that it's not even logical that they turned this from uber unique to such a boring redundant "Enhance this" AA.</p><p>Also, I don't think I'd even take the AA that the New Focused Minion enhances because the other AA procs a detault, which is virtually all the mage pets needed to keep their threat in check and make it more manageable (unless it's such a low proc chance that no one would take that either).</p><p>I need to log into the test server to see what this stuff looks like.</p><p>No summoners on test have posted screenshots and thing slike that to show us what the actual increases form the new revamped AAs are.</p><p>We really have no clue if it's properly compensated (unless you're on test and can see what a lot of us don't see), so complaining ATM (for me, at least) doesn't seem warranted.</p><p>Have to evaluate all changes and how they affect performance as a whole, not just single out stuff.</p><p>Also, does the mage pet have spell auto attack, or will it still suicide to riposte on bosses I have to hump if my call servant is down for another 2 seconds?  At least that will give the new stats a bit more weight.</p>

Xillean 07-28-2011 05:44 PM

<p>Im on test, and yeah I want our full sda back my other suggestion was more of a compromise if the devs refused to budge on said 12.8 sda</p><p>I perosnally see no reason we should have lost it and im hoping its just a oversight in thier desire to give us a true dehate line, they went a bit overboard by taking the sda. It is a MASSIVE NERF to our damage imo. New stuff is kool but doesnt make up for the loss of the sda. But best way to check it for yourself is to get on test, lady luck is up on test copy if you dont want to wait to be copied over, amke a new necro and buff em up.</p>

Xalmat 07-28-2011 05:47 PM

<p>I'll look at these changes later tonight when I get the chance, but based on what I'm reading I'd rather have the old Summoner tree back as-is.</p>

acctlc 07-28-2011 06:52 PM

Have to agree, losing spell DA is definitely an unwelcome nerf to the summoner class. Will post more feedback after test finally gets done installing :/

Cisgo 07-28-2011 06:57 PM

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I'll look at these changes later tonight when I get the chance, but based on what I'm reading I'd rather have the old Summoner tree back as-is.</p></blockquote><p>  Aside from the loss of SDA (which is a hit), there is alot of nice changes in the new AA structure. Much more utility from the Agil. Line, means to increase mage pet 10% health for Soulburns, new AoE, Reanimate, Wis. dehate line for the conjurors complaining of aggro, increase in raid buff stats. </p><p>  Although there were a few good things changed, there is alot more to choose from now and there many different spec options which is good. Not to overlook the SDA hit, it will hurt, however there are some very nice changes otherwise.</p>

Trensharo 07-28-2011 07:22 PM

<p>On the ohter forum in the Necro Subforum there's a screenshot of the new AAs from the Summoner Tree.</p><p>Personally I agree with Xalmat.  They should have just left the tree as is.</p><p>The Class Trees were basically unchanged and given how things stand now there will not be much change in which AAs you grab there.  Maybe you'll skip one or two AAs that you were forced to get before due to the webbing, but that's about it.</p><p>Also, revamping SF/TSO instance gear without doing something about the PQ gear outlier is a waste of time at best.</p>

Iacon 07-28-2011 10:40 PM

<p>I copied my conj to test to check out the changes first hand...</p><p>Xelgad, why did you leave in the reduced resist chance on the bottom line but take out the SDA? The resist % thing is pretty worthless (we have Unabated and high hit rates already), and you must have had a suspicion atleast that summoners like SDA for their pet.</p><p>Was it too powerful or do you honestly think we are better off now than we were before?</p>

acctlc 07-28-2011 10:49 PM

<p>Feedback regarding summoner changes on test:    * Empower Servant is now in the Cabalist line and is now Cabalistic Conversion.  It reduces the group’s power cost by 1% per rank.Horrible change, put it back the way it was please.  My pets power is not easily managed by myself and this aa allowed me to never worry about the pet running out of power.  I can't toss a shard my pets way, I can't easily ask a chanter, hey..could you feed my pet?   My worry is without this aa in heavy powerdrain fights the pet will always be running on empty and the only choice will be to constantly recast the darn thing to restore its power pool.  Managing the groups power is a chanters job anyway, we don't need to add it to a summoners arsenal in the form of aa. Its fine where its at in the tree but just revert it back to what it was.    *Focused Minion is now Symbiotic Bond.  It increases the amount of Symbiosis by 1% per rank.Worse than the previous AA, by far.  Symbiosis is a nice idea, gives options to those wanting more or less pet hate.  Changing this AA from SDA for pet to enhancing that AA further is a horrible downgrade to this AA in its previous form however. Revert it back and rethink its position in the tree.  As is now I"m stuck sinking 16 points into the sentinals fate attributes and the only one I really want to spend 8 points on is the Aptitude of the theurgist.    *Unflinching Servant can now be used on any pet.This could have been the solution to conjuror aoe prevent for mage pets in combat, which as opposed to necromancers, we are definitely lacking.  We now have 2 aoe prevent AA options, neither of which the mage pet can be attacking.  So really less than useful from a conjuror+magepet prospective.  Still as useful as the previous AA that folks would use with melee pets. General line structure:Removing the webbing was great for the Conjuror tree but is still very restrictive in the Summoner tree.  You've come up with some nice AA's and currently they are buried beneath ones that based on playstyle, just aren't useful.  With the 100 point restriction on the tree its a bit rough atm.  Reanimate as a conjuror with no viable aa for pet aoe prevent, is very tempting but the choices above it could easily be sacrificed for better aa's elsewhere in the tree.  If for some reason it was decided that SDA is too overpowered for summoners (I don't agree with this), animate might make a good replacement on that line as atm I find the sentinal's fate points lackluster short of Aptitude of the Theurgist.  The bump to the raidwide buff isn't a horrible choice but 8 AA points for 2.4 increase to its stats..I'd rather have better pet surviveability considering the puny pet HP pools.BUGS:A reanimated pets hitpoint pool seems to have gone down drastically from an original summoned pet.  For example, an originally summoned pet  has for me 21,506k hp (spec'd both HP increasing aa's btw).  I can reanimate him once and have the reanimated pet's HP match the original pets.  Then if I hit reanimate again more than a minute later, the pet I have is at 12,744k HP.  Obviously the amazing draw to this aa is pet death can be negated without recasting but the cutting of pet HP almost in half is a huge drawback that in its current form if bugged makes it no different than dimensional storage as a pet with 12k hp won't be lasting long at all.</p>

Xalmat 07-28-2011 11:44 PM

<p>So I'm going to do a thorough before-and-after, with opinions:</p><p>STR tree:</p><p>Before: Animated Dagger, summon a swarm petAfter: Piercing-based NukeVerdict: Heck yeah in principle. However the damage is VERY, VERY anemic.</p><p>Before: Parrying, 1% uncontested Parry per rankAfter: <span>Theurgistic Prowess,</span><span> increases the summoner’s subjugation, ordination, focus, disruption and ministration.Verdict: Meh. I'd rather the uncontested Parry personally. At least for a Conjuror, most of these stats are low use, even with the changes to stats. This also hurts Summoners pretty heavily in a PvP setting due to the loss of avoidance.</span></p><p>Before: Wild Channeling, 1.2% Crit Chance per rankAfter: Unchanged</p><p>Before: Implode, sacrifice the pet for an AoE nuke (relatively useless)After: <span>Theurgist’s Detonation, inflicts magic damage around the summoner.Verdict: Heck yeah</span></p><p>Conclusion: I want Parrying back, but otherwise an excellent change to the tree. This is now the personal DPS tree.</p><p>AGI tree:</p><p>Before: Shadowstep (this is now moved to the INT tree)After: Transference (this was moved from the WIS tree)Verdict: I really don't understand this change. Looks like it was done to change the purpose of the AGI tree.</p><p>Before: Cabalist's Cover (intercept chance)After: Same as the old Minion's Warding (moved from INT tree)Verdict: I don't understand the change. Looks like it was done to change the purpose of the AGI tree.</p><p>Before: Minion's Zeal, scout pet grants group MAAfter: Cabalistic Conservation, reduce group mana costVerdict: Um...OK? Worthless.</p><p>Before: Reanimate, resurrect the scout pet when it diesAfter: Teamwork, grants the pet a group buff depending on the pet typeVerdict: This is god awful expensive for such a small bonus all around.</p><p>Conclusion: This is now the personal defense and group utility tree. A mostly useless AA tree (still)</p><p>STA tree:</p><p>Before: ShockwaveAfter: Same, except all pets can now use itVerdict: Good change</p><p>Before: Perceptor's Command (moved/merged into WIS tree)After: Perceptor's Parry, grant the pet parry chance per rankVerdict: Interesting change</p><p>Before: Perceptor's Bodyguard, increase fighter pet HPAfter: Same, affects all pets but HP is now reduced to 1% per rank.Verdict: Interesting change.</p><p>Before: Unflinching ServantAfter: Same, now affects all petsVerdict: Good change, if useless</p><p>Conclusion: Interesting. This is now the pet defensive utility tree.</p><p>WIS tree:</p><p>Before: Transference (now moved to AGI tree)After: Magic Leash (a merging of the old INT tree Magic Leash and Perceptor's Command, and making it AE)Verdict: I'm still confused about the rearranging, but a good change to the spell.</p><p>Before: Minion's Barrier (increase pet's defensive stats)After: Minion's Attention (proc hate position adjustments for pet)Verdict: Interesting is the word of the day, though this is a pretty hard nerf for summoners, unless the new Perceptor's Parry is better</p><p>Before: Minion's Uproar (increase pet's offensive stats, now moved to INT tree)After: Symbiosis, Transfer some hate to tank pet, and transfer some scout/mage pet hate to SummonerVerdict: VERY interesting, although this could hurt</p><p>Before: Animist's Bond (reduce damage by 2/3 and inflict in mana damage instead)After: Animist's Evasion (self 24 hate position reduction)Verdict: VERY interesting, although I'm not really sure why summoners need <em>another</em> hate position adjustment spell. Though in conjunction with the endline to this tree this makes sense.</p><p>Conclusion: Very interesting. WIS line is now the hate adjustment line.</p><p>INT tree:</p><p>Before: Magic Leash (now moved to WIS line)After: Shadowstep (now applies to mage and tank pet as well)Verdict: very interesting. Although for mage pet it's mostly useless imo if it interrupts spell cast.</p><p>Before: Minion's Warding (now moved to AGi tree)After: Minion''s UproarVerdict: Still a mostly useless AA for the mage pet.</p><p>Before: Arcane MinionAfter: Same, except now affects all petsVerdict: Good change</p><p>Before: Empower Servant (reduce mage pet mana cost significantly)After: Reanimate (moved from AGI tree, affects all pets now)Verdict: HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE. With Dimensional Storage alone summoners should have no problem keeping a pet up; at most this will save one spell cast. Not worth the AA investment. Please change it back.</p><p>Conclusion: This is now the pet DPS line. Reanimate is still garbage.</p><p>Sentinel's Fate changes:</p><p>Aptitude of the Theurgist - no change</p><p>Before: Cabilist's Aura, grant scout pet FlurryAfter: Improves the pet raidwide buffVerdict: Very interesting change, but a VERY poor AA. 0.25% raidwide potency per AA, for a grand total of 2% potency for 8 AA? No thanks.</p><p>Perceptor's Defense: No Change</p><p>Before: Animist's Aptitude (now moved to INT line)After: Symbiotic Bond, improve hate transfer of SymbiosisVerdict: HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE idea getting rid of Focused Minion and giving us this piece of crap.</p><p>Before: Focused Minion, 1.25% pet spell double attack/rankAfter: Magician's Aptitude (same as old Animist's Aptitude)Verdict: HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE.</p><p>Overall verdict: Getting rid of Focused Minion is a massive nerf to Summoners, there's no question. There's no way that Cabilist's Aura can even come remotely come close to matching the loss of Focused Minion in a group or raid setting where the group has Velious gear or better.</p><p><span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em>Aside</em></span> from that, this is an interesting set of changes to the tree.</p>

Talathion 07-28-2011 11:47 PM

<p>atleast your tree did get changed, but SDA after the stat changes might be way OP.</p><p>You guys are going to be gaining so much damage its going to be dumb.</p>

Xalmat 07-28-2011 11:47 PM

<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>atleast your tree did get changed, but SDA after the stat changes might be way OP.</p><p>You guys are going to be gaining so much damage its going to be dumb.</p></blockquote><p>How so? We would need about 1000% ability cast speed to match the lost spell DA.</p>

Davngr1 07-29-2011 12:56 AM

<p>need the SDA back the is no way that the other changes made up for that lost damage.  you in fact made it more interesting but also made it worse <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>  now as far as the casting speed to SDA conversion thing.  i have a question, does the casting speed granted to individual spells in the AA trees modify that one spell to SDA?  or is it exclusive to "casting speed" and also does it work with "hostile spell casting speed"?</p>

acctlc 07-29-2011 12:58 AM

<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>atleast your tree did get changed, but SDA after the stat changes might be way OP.</p><p>You guys are going to be gaining so much damage its going to be dumb.</p></blockquote><p>What Xal said:</p><p>Per Xelgad overcap conversion for SDA goes like this:</p><p><span ><p>Ability Casting Speed to Doublecast:</p> <ul><li>100: 0%</li><li>200: 0.75%</li><li>300: 1.5%</li><li>400: 2.25%</li><li>500: 3%</li></ul>Considering he didn't continue past 500 I'm guessing we won't be seeing totals that high for a loooong time.  And they took away 10+ from our pet..sure  feels like a massive neft to me.</span></p>

Xalmat 07-29-2011 12:59 AM

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>now as far as the casting speed to SDA conversion thing.  i have a question, does the casting speed granted to individual spells in the AA trees modify that one spell to SDA?  or is it exclusive to "casting speed" and also does it work with "hostile spell casting speed"?</p></blockquote><p>I doubt it.</p>

Davngr1 07-29-2011 01:03 AM

<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>BUGS:A reanimated pets hitpoint pool seems to have gone down drastically from an original summoned pet.  For example, an originally summoned pet  has for me 21,506k hp (spec'd both HP increasing aa's btw).  I can reanimate him once and have the reanimated pet's HP match the original pets.  Then if I hit reanimate again more than a minute later, the pet I have is at 12,744k HP.  Obviously the amazing draw to this aa is pet death can be negated without recasting but the cutting of pet HP almost in half is a huge drawback that in its current form if bugged makes it no different than dimensional storage as a pet with 12k hp won't be lasting long at all.</p></blockquote><p> this is a bug that was never fixed.  reanimate summons an app1 pet not a master pet.</p>

Xillean 07-29-2011 01:05 AM

<p>Need our sda back devs, and prehaps scrape the Reanimate and give our pets back thier power replenish Empower Servant as Xalmat said.</p><p>Just these two changes and we are good to go. I do have to ask what about our class trees? nothing seems different, Not tryign to be greedy I am grateful for all the work I see thats been done a lot of these changes have been needed for years, but really we still have the hydro and ooze? For all that is good please scrap this crap and make it where the endlines grant us a condesened version of those pets abilties.</p><p>Make it something our primary pet can use or something we ourselves can use if we spec for it, put it on a semi long recast if need be 1-3 mins. In thier current form both pets dps like a wet noodle and are never, and I mean NEVER worth casting over our primary pets. Or make it where we can summon them alongside our primaries we are a pet class, why cant we have another guy following us around doing thier thing?</p><p>Im sure theres more for our class trees that could/should be done but the hydro and ooze above all else imo need the biggest help, they suck something needs to be done to make it where we want to cast them or at least consider speccing for them.</p>

Davngr1 07-29-2011 01:07 AM

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>now as far as the casting speed to SDA conversion thing.  i have a question, does the casting speed granted to individual spells in the AA trees modify that one spell to SDA?  or is it exclusive to "casting speed" and also does it work with "hostile spell casting speed"?</p></blockquote><p>I doubt it.</p></blockquote><p>i'd just like to know for sure since there are so many different types of casting speed buffs. hos,ben,sub,spell,abi.</p>

Xalmat 07-29-2011 01:11 AM

<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Just these two changes and we are good to go. I do have to ask what about our class trees? nothing seems different, Not tryign to be greedy I am grateful for all the work I see thats been done a lot of these changes have been needed for years, but really we still have the hydro and ooze? For all that is good please scrap this crap and make it where the endlines grant us a condesened version of those pets abilties.</blockquote><p>At least for Conjurors, so many different AA options were opened up in the Conjuror tree it's pretty silly.</p>

Davngr1 07-29-2011 01:14 AM

<p>yea time after time the conj seem to get the bigger piece of pie :  </p><p>  I HATE CONJ!!!!! </p><p> <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Xillean 07-29-2011 01:15 AM

<p>Necros still have our craptastic temp pet ehancers, didnt they remove the aa for your guys? conjys that is. Not saying we have it bad, I love the new class tree just wish those two pets were worth casting. Cant have it all I suppose, if it came down to we can fix them or work on making the summoner tree tweaked to where it needs to be via the feedback here of course id go with them tweaking the summoner tree, especailly since it seves both of our archtypes.</p>

acctlc 07-29-2011 01:22 AM

<p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>BUGS:A reanimated pets hitpoint pool seems to have gone down drastically from an original summoned pet.  For example, an originally summoned pet  has for me 21,506k hp (spec'd both HP increasing aa's btw).  I can reanimate him once and have the reanimated pet's HP match the original pets.  Then if I hit reanimate again more than a minute later, the pet I have is at 12,744k HP.  Obviously the amazing draw to this aa is pet death can be negated without recasting but the cutting of pet HP almost in half is a huge drawback that in its current form if bugged makes it no different than dimensional storage as a pet with 12k hp won't be lasting long at all.</p></blockquote><p> this is a bug that was never fixed.  reanimate summons an app1 pet not a master pet.</p></blockquote><p>Oh jeez..so the chance that they will fix the aa is probably nil at this point.</p>

Davngr1 07-29-2011 01:31 AM

<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Davngr1 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>BUGS:A reanimated pets hitpoint pool seems to have gone down drastically from an original summoned pet.  For example, an originally summoned pet  has for me 21,506k hp (spec'd both HP increasing aa's btw).  I can reanimate him once and have the reanimated pet's HP match the original pets.  Then if I hit reanimate again more than a minute later, the pet I have is at 12,744k HP.  Obviously the amazing draw to this aa is pet death can be negated without recasting but the cutting of pet HP almost in half is a huge drawback that in its current form if bugged makes it no different than dimensional storage as a pet with 12k hp won't be lasting long at all.</p></blockquote><p> this is a bug that was never fixed.  reanimate summons an app1 pet not a master pet.</p></blockquote><p>Oh jeez..so the chance that they will fix the aa is probably nil at this point.</p></blockquote><p>heh..</p><p> no one really pushed it since the scout pet is useless tbh :p</p>

Dreemscape 07-29-2011 06:08 AM

<p>Please leave Focused Minion as it is, there is no reason for this huge nerf. Sad to see after getting some loving to the class in the last couple of expansions that the devs now want to start rolling us back. </p>

Cisgo 07-29-2011 06:10 AM

<p>  These new lines are not horrible, I suggest you test them rather than just read them and post complaints.</p><p>   The Str. line AoE is a very nice change. Losing parry I wont lose sleep over it, this hurts PvPers moreso. The new AoE dominates anything that was in this line prior.</p><p>   The entire Agl. line has a purpose (as do all the new AA lines). I am not sure you can say adding 2.4% potency to a raid (over 50 potency overall) is weak. The endline Agl. adds another 5% potency to group (with mage pet), thats 7.4% increase in personal/pet potency, you don't think that will make up some of the loss in SDA? Reducing your groups power by 10% is also a very nice option, it is not horrible. For years summoners cried weak utility, well with this line you have it.</p><p>   The Sta. line allows you to increase your mage pet health by 10%, that translates to a much better Soulburn, again another improved DPS option like the above AoE and potency increases that will help offset the loss of pet SDA.</p><p>   The Wis. line is for all the complaining conjurors since SoF that are ripping aggro with thier insane pet and Elemental Blasts. Seriously a 24 position hate reduction, as well as other hate reducers and there are complaints? The only complaints here should be from the necros who do not need this entire line. This is a nice line/option for anyone have aggro issues.</p><p>   The Int. line is also for those complainers who are pushing for the necro AoE prevent and stating they cannot keep thier pet up with the multiple stoneskins they have at thier disposal (also on a side note, necro pets die also in raids they are not immune to death cause they have Bloodpact). Well, for those that fit this catagory there is Reanimate, a very useful ability (as long as it works properly). In conjunction with Storage this should eliminate future complainers and ppl. having trouble with multi pet deaths. Also, an additional insta cast damage ability is also nice.</p><p>   Please people, test the new abilities rather than just log on a read them. You will find that it might not be as bad as you think and you have alot more options and direction than you had prior to the changes. You may find that the new AoE, 10% more health for Soulburn, 7.4% potency additions doesn't make the DPS loss of SDA look so bad afterall (it is a big hit, but not the end of the world). The devs knew that there would be a backlash when they removed the pet SDA, they are not stupid. I am sure that there is a good reason why they went this route. Like it or not, its a give and take, we were not going to get a bunch of decent AA upgrades without a give back cost. If you like/dislike the changes is another story. But, these are just my opinions, please feel free to test/discuss and agree/disagree.</p>

katalmach 07-29-2011 07:45 AM

<p>Others may well disagree, but I am really sad to see Animist's Bond go. For me it's a very useful spell and an AA that I've always specced into. Just yesterday it saved my life twice! I realize that maybe it's not very useful for raiders/groupers (I wouldn't know, as I don't do either of those anymore), but for my solo/duo playstyle, it's surprisingly helpful. It frequently gets me out of trouble that would otherwise have ended with a revive box on my screen! (I know that us necros have many survival tools like this, but Animist's Bond was one of my favourites, and I really don't think its replacement is going to be useful at all to me).</p><p>I will also find it difficult to accept losing the pet spell double attack and the pet power return. Very sad.</p>

Banditman 07-29-2011 11:14 AM

<p>Losing SDA on our pet is a direct, and massive nerf to Summoner DPS.  Nothing that is being given comes anywhere NEAR to replacing the lost DPS.  Summoners are a DPS class.  That's what they do.  Nothing else they do, nothing that is being added will in any way make up for the loss of their personal DPS.  Summoners were competitive prior to this, not overpowered, but competitive.  This will make them solidly second rate DPS with no redeeming features of note.</p><p>Losing Empower Minion will also impact our DPS, since our pet will now burn through it's power much more quickly, with no personal means to replenish it.  This is huge, since we can't do anything for our pet.  Again, the problem here is that players have many, many ways to recover, replenish and conserve our power.  Our pets do not.  Empower Minion kept the pet on fairly equal footing, and it's lack will constitute a further nerf to the class.</p><p>Unflinching Servant is still just as useless as ever.  For a Conjuror, this AA is ridiculous.  If we want our pet AE immune we can stifle it (so it does no damage *and* spend 5 seconds of our own time casting that) or we can summon it to ourselves, tell it to stop attacking and hope Bubble works.  For a Necro, it's just as stupid, since Necros have a AE avoid for their pet that actually works.  This AA doesn't help either Summoner class.  Make the [Removed for Content] thing immune or don't, but stop putting limitations on it that make the effect useless.</p><p>Frankly, we're far better off with the current AA tree than with this.  Yes, there are some neat ideas here, but no one can get excited about any of them when the overall effect is that Summoners are less effective at their primary role.  You cannot ask people to embrace your changes when they are so clearly a loss in overall effectiveness.</p>

Trensharo 07-29-2011 11:32 AM

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Losing SDA on our pet is a direct, and massive nerf to Summoner DPS.  Nothing that is being given comes anywhere NEAR to replacing the lost DPS.  Summoners are a DPS class.  That's what they do.  Nothing else they do, nothing that is being added will in any way make up for the loss of their personal DPS.  Summoners were competitive prior to this, not overpowered, but competitive.  This will make them solidly second rate DPS with no redeeming features of note.</p><p>Losing Empower Minion will also impact our DPS, since our pet will now burn through it's power much more quickly, with no personal means to replenish it.  This is huge, since we can't do anything for our pet.  Again, the problem here is that players have many, many ways to recover, replenish and conserve our power.  Our pets do not.  Empower Minion kept the pet on fairly equal footing, and it's lack will constitute a further nerf to the class.</p><p>Unflinching Servant is still just as useless as ever.  For a Conjuror, this AA is ridiculous.  If we want our pet AE immune we can stifle it (so it does no damage *and* spend 5 seconds of our own time casting that) or we can summon it to ourselves, tell it to stop attacking and hope Bubble works.  For a Necro, it's just as stupid, since Necros have a AE avoid for their pet that actually works.  This AA doesn't help either Summoner class.  Make the [Removed for Content] thing immune or don't, but stop putting limitations on it that make the effect useless.</p><p>Frankly, we're far better off with the current AA tree than with this.  Yes, there are some neat ideas here, but no one can get excited about any of them when the overall effect is that Summoners are less effective at their primary role.  You cannot ask people to embrace your changes when they are so clearly a loss in overall effectiveness.</p></blockquote><p>Quite frankly true.  The only thing that looks really nice to me is the attention proc, but they could have made our offensive stances useful by just slapping and the effect onto them (via AA i.e. Enhance Antagonize) and be done with it.</p><p>And leaving all the useless AAs in the Necro Class tree...  Just... Fail.</p><p>Seriously...  Shards, Enhance Consumption, Dumbfire Enhancements, Oozecrawler, Enhance:  Bloody Ritual.</p><p>@ SOE:  I'll work for free if you guys need help coming up with non-IMBA, imaginative AAs...</p>

Griffildur 07-29-2011 11:42 AM

<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Quite frankly true.  The only thing that looks really nice to me is the attention proc, but they could have made our offensive stances useful by just slapping and the effect onto them (via AA i.e. Enhance Antagonize) and be done with it.</p><p>And leaving all the useless AAs in the Necro Class tree...  Just... Fail.</p><p>Seriously...  Shards, Enhance Consumption, Dumbfire Enhancements, Oozecrawler, Enhance:  Bloody Ritual.</p><p>@ SOE:  I'll work for free if you guys need help coming up with non-IMBA, imaginative AAs...</p></blockquote><p>They will not accept someone who actually plays the game .... jeez the nerve. If you play the game, write code and OMG test to see if it works, then you're not bad enough for SOE.</p>

Banditman 07-29-2011 12:56 PM

<p>I do find it very, very odd that they would remove the dumbfire enhancements from the Conjuror tree, yet leave them in the Necro tree.  It just doesn't make much sense, does it?</p><p>If they intend to "fix" dumbfire pets, then a Conj may need those AA's.  If they don't intend to fix them, then Necros don't need them either.  Right now we effectively have two different answers.</p>

Xalmat 07-29-2011 12:58 PM

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I do find it very, very odd that they would remove the dumbfire enhancements from the Conjuror tree, yet leave them in the Necro tree.  It just doesn't make much sense, does it?</p><p>If they intend to "fix" dumbfire pets, then a Conj may need those AA's.  If they don't intend to fix them, then Necros don't need them either.  Right now we effectively have two different answers.</p></blockquote><p>Good point. I'm guessing it's because, without them, Necromancers would have too few AAs in the Necromancer tree to be consistent with what other classes are receiving.</p>

Trensharo 07-29-2011 01:29 PM

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I do find it very, very odd that they would remove the dumbfire enhancements from the Conjuror tree, yet leave them in the Necro tree.  It just doesn't make much sense, does it?</p><p>If they intend to "fix" dumbfire pets, then a Conj may need those AA's.  If they don't intend to fix them, then Necros don't need them either.  Right now we effectively have two different answers.</p></blockquote><p>Good point. I'm guessing it's because, without them, Necromancers would have too few AAs in the Necromancer tree to be consistent with what other classes are receiving.</p></blockquote><p>I think this is the answer here.  Conjies have a lot more AAs in their Class Tree compared to Necros.  Without the Gravecalling line (or half of it) there woulnd't me much in the Necro class Tree.  Even now there is basically 1 way to spec the EoF AAs for Necro.  Conjies have a lot more flexibility IRT viable builds, so they could afford to drop them.</p><p>I think the dumbfires will remain useless for the forseeable future.</p>

Xillean 07-29-2011 07:21 PM

<p>I think we may have lost the sda and the flurry becuase it looks like they are trying to make it where anyway we spec it applys to any pet we have depending on its type. If that is the case (yeah I know proably not) Then I propose the followig to replace the symbotic enhance one:</p><p>Peaceful Agression</p><p>Grants your pet the following abilties</p><p>10 SDA if Mage</p><p>12-16 Flurry if Scout (dont rmemeber the exact amount the previous aa gave)</p><p>15 Multi if Tank (or strikethrough, tank didnt really have one but keeping with the new theme im seeing being used my suggestion for a tank)</p><p>That way depending on our primary pet at the time they all would benefit from it. Thoughts?</p>

Oink 07-29-2011 09:03 PM

<p>Minion's Attention needs to be toggleable like symbiosis is.  With it, you can't have your mage pet tank for you, or use a fighter pet in groups without possibly ripping agro.</p><p>Wild channeling stopped being useful at level 90, I'd be happy if they put the pet's spell-double-attack back on there if they're trying to bait us into the STR line again.</p><p>Several years ago, for me, Animist's Bond was fairly usefull; I'm sure lower level toons might still have wanted it temporarily until they could better protect their pet in other ways.</p><p>So far, on test.. seveal things are bugged.</p><p>Teamwork is still putting minion's zeal on pets, frequently getting "requires fighter" error messages probably from minon's attention.</p>

Banditman 08-01-2011 10:42 AM

<p>Animists Bond is still useful at 90 when you're dealing with AE's that aren't physical, at least for Conjurors.  Its not uncommon to run out of DP's when Vehement Skin isn't available / useful.</p>

Xalmat 08-01-2011 11:36 AM

<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Minion's Attention needs to be toggleable like symbiosis is.  With it, you can't have your mage pet tank for you, or use a fighter pet in groups without possibly ripping agro.</p></blockquote><p>Don't spec for it, imo. Surely among 11 AA specs (thanks to being able to have 10 mirrors) you can come up with a mage-pet solo spec that doesn't use Minion's Attention.</p><p>And the only reason to use the fighter pet is to tank. No Conjuror in their right mind should use the tank pet otherwise.</p>

Felshades 08-01-2011 12:26 PM

<p>Maybe this is their way of saying summoners do too much damage?</p>

Banditman 08-01-2011 01:56 PM

<p>Maybe it is.  But that has never been stated.  There is no evidence to support the assertion that Summoners are overpowered.  Certainly, nothing like a particular "utility" class.</p><p>Summoners are a DPS class with nothing else of note to offer.  They should parse that way.  If they don't, they are broken.  I'm not sure how else to say it.</p><p>Right now, parses that I've seen indicate that Summoners are a DPS class comparable to the other DPS classes out there.  Radio silence on an issue like this is a terrible way to run a business imo.</p>

Rockefeller 08-01-2011 04:44 PM

Xelgad, can we get a reponse from you why you thought it necessary to remove Focused Minion (SDA)?

Banditman 08-01-2011 05:15 PM

<p>Oh, I know what he thinks he did.</p><p>He believes that the increased group potency of 8% and raid potency of 2% makes up for the loss of 12 SDA.</p><p>Perhaps if all players involved were sitting at 0 potency then this might make up the difference.  However, with most group based players sitting at 100 - 150 potency, and most raid players in the 150 - 200 range, the overall impact of these amounts of potency is frankly miniscule.</p><p>The problem with that thinking lies in the fact that SDA is a direct augment of damage dealt - after everything else has been accounted for, SDA kicks in.  It's a much bigger impact than a loss of 12 potency would be.</p><p>Trying to create a jack of all trades class simply relegates that class to the nominal position of "Guild Hall Guard".  A class that doesn't bring enough buffs to truly warrant a spot as utility, and a class that doesn't bring enough DPS to warrant a spot as damage dealing.</p><p>Bad design imo.</p>

Rockefeller 08-01-2011 07:41 PM

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Oh, I know what he thinks he did.</p><p>He believes that the increased group potency of 8% and raid potency of 2% makes up for the loss of 12 SDA.</p><p>Perhaps if all players involved were sitting at 0 potency then this might make up the difference.  However, with most group based players sitting at 100 - 150 potency, and most raid players in the 150 - 200 range, the overall impact of these amounts of potency is frankly miniscule.</p><p>The problem with that thinking lies in the fact that SDA is a direct augment of damage dealt - after everything else has been accounted for, SDA kicks in.  It's a much bigger impact than a loss of 12 potency would be.</p><p>Trying to create a jack of all trades class simply relegates that class to the nominal position of "Guild Hall Guard".  A class that doesn't bring enough buffs to truly warrant a spot as utility, and a class that doesn't bring enough DPS to warrant a spot as damage dealing.</p><p>Bad design imo.</p></blockquote><p>I hear you. I was just hoping to hear from Xelgad in his own words why it was decided so. What he believed we gained that was so worthy to make up for Focused Minion. I'll admit as a long time summoner, I am happy to see a Dev looking hard at ways to diversify this class and give it more utility. However like many summoner who both have and have not voiced their opinions on this thread, we basically see this as a Pyrrhic victory. Even given some of the new and interesting AA modifcations, I would personally vote to not go forward with these changes if it costs us Focused Minion.</p>

Cisgo 08-02-2011 03:16 AM

<p>    Personally I think these are great changes, do you really want AA's like Implode, or an entire useless Agl. line ? As for utility a conjuror can now bring group stoneskins, Elem Tox., an enhanced raid buff, 10% group power reduction, as well as group potency. That people is a ton of nice utility. Now if they kept the SDA as is and gave summoners all these improvements, how long do you think it would take for the sorcerers and predators to complain ? (and rightfully so).</p><p>    As it stands right now alot of those "T1" type DPS classes rerolled to conjuror do to thier massive improvements last 2 expacs. As for DPS, summoners are doing very well (conjurors esp.), now hand them a bunch more utility, some potency, two new AoEs, a couple more DD spells, and without taking something back and you may have an imbalance issue. I am not saying that I like losing SDA for the pet, but let's be real these AA changes for the most part are very nice. Thumb through all the conjuror posts complaining about thier pet drawing aggro cause of it's power. Well, Sony listened and presented an entire Wis. line for that.</p><p>    There had to be a ceiling with this class somewhere, the DPS is T1 and the utility exceeds other T1 classes for the most part. Try to look beyond the SDA and realize there are five nice AA lines now, and choosing the 100 points will be difficult now (although I bet some will start to whine and complain they need increase the line beyond 100). Also, I wouldn't call the 7.4% potency for you and your pet trival, that is a nice little increase. Also, factor in the 10% more pet health from the stamina line that will do wonders for Soulburn. Again, I am not saying that I like losing SDA, but I do like all the changes of the useless AA's, and givin the choice I think it's a fair sacrifice. The DPS will still be competitive, aggro issues have been addressed, and the utility has been improved.</p>

Oink 08-02-2011 09:21 AM

<p>With the loss of SDA and power replenishment and reanimate summoning apprentice level pets, hardly anyone is going to use the magician/inteligence line.  Sadly, that loss of casting/reuse/recovery speed is going to hurt several people, since Time Compression doesn't share with the pet, as they're effects like "spell reuse" vs "ability reuse".</p>

Banditman 08-02-2011 10:14 AM

<p><cite>Cisgo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>    Personally I think these are great changes, do you really want AA's like Implode, or an entire useless Agl. line ? As for utility a conjuror can now bring group stoneskins, Elem Tox., an enhanced raid buff, 10% group power reduction, as well as group potency. That people is a ton of nice utility. Now if they kept the SDA as is and gave summoners all these improvements, how long do you think it would take for the sorcerers and predators to complain ? (and rightfully so).</p><p><span style="color: #008000;">10% reduced power use is worthless.  It doesn't replenish power.  The only time power is an issue is when it is being actively drained by the script of the encounter. </span></p><p><span style="color: #008000;">Group Potency amounts to about a 2 to 3 percent increase in overall damage given the point we are at in itemization at endgame.  It's really very meh.  Take it or leave it.</span></p><p><span style="color: #008000;">The enhanced raid buff actually bestows less than 1% overall damage increase for most raids.  All for the low, low price of 8 AA!</span></p><p><span style="color: #008000;">Elemental Toxicity absolutely pales in comparison to Frigid Gift / Ice Lash (Wizard!) on all encounters besides a group of 3+ linked mobs.</span></p><p><span style="color: #008000;">Group Stoneskins are mostly worthless as well, since they ONLY work on damage less than 50% of health.  I mean, cripes, if it's less than half my health, who cares?</span></p><p><span style="color: #008000;">All of these "utility" items are simply of the "Oh look!  Shiny!" variety.  They are not meaningful, "I need that" type of utility.  The only meaningful utility we have is Runes of Geomancy, and that is second fiddle to Percussion of Stone which it does NOT stack with.</span></p><p><span style="color: #008000;">I am all for Summoners getting utility.  Really.  But it has to be meaningful, "I *need* that" type of utility.</span></p><p>    As it stands right now alot of those "T1" type DPS classes rerolled to conjuror do to thier massive improvements last 2 expacs. As for DPS, summoners are doing very well (conjurors esp.), now hand them a bunch more utility, some potency, two new AoEs, a couple more DD spells, and without taking something back and you may have an imbalance issue. I am not saying that I like losing SDA for the pet, but let's be real these AA changes for the most part are very nice. Thumb through all the conjuror posts complaining about thier pet drawing aggro cause of it's power. Well, Sony listened and presented an entire Wis. line for that.</p><p><span style="color: #008000;">Yes, they sure did.  Except that first off, most Conjurors already knew how to handle the excess hate.  Secondly, with the removal of SDA on the pet, no one will NEED the WIS line because the pet will no longer generate enough hate to be of a concern.</span></p><p>    There had to be a ceiling with this class somewhere, the DPS is T1 and the utility exceeds other T1 classes for the most part. Try to look beyond the SDA and realize there are five nice AA lines now, and choosing the 100 points will be difficult now (although I bet some will start to whine and complain they need increase the line beyond 100). Also, I wouldn't call the 7.4% potency for you and your pet trival, that is a nice little increase. Also, factor in the 10% more pet health from the stamina line that will do wonders for Soulburn. Again, I am not saying that I like losing SDA, but I do like all the changes of the useless AA's, and givin the choice I think it's a fair sacrifice. The DPS will still be competitive, aggro issues have been addressed, and the utility has been improved.</p><p><span style="color: #008000;">Actually, it will be very easy to choose.  Teamwork will be the new INT line, everyone will have to take it to at least try to make up the lost ground.  Everyone will take the 10% pet health.  Depending on how strong Impode is, it may or may not be taken.  INT line will now be useless.  WIS line will be useless.  Most folks will put spare points into Shadowstep for another free nuke.</span></p><p><span style="color: #008000;">The thing everyone seems to forget is that Potency is not what it says unless you are at 0 Potency to start with.  At 200 Potency, a 7.4 increase translates to about 2.5% damage increase.</span></p></blockquote><p>The SDA is much, much bigger than anything we gained since it is a perfect scale to whatever gear or level you happen to be at.  It is just as valuable to a Summoner at L50 as it is to one at L90.  Potency decreases in value the closer you are to level cap and the higher you get in itemization.</p>

Xillean 08-02-2011 01:01 PM

<p>What banditman said. Its sad but very true, ive been on test trying out all of the new changes in as many different setups as I can muster. WE GOT NERFED. Its as simple as that. I was able to parse soemwhat close to normal on a few fights with the new implode, shadow step and etc but it was still noticeably less without the SDA. As far as utility goes, I would be fine with it, would enjoy the change with having near the same dps but with bringing something to the raid but we dont.</p><p>Unless your a raider I dont think you can understand how little the pot really is, its crap at the higher end. I still say if they refuse to give us our sda with focused minion please let us have something like 5 sda on teamwork instead of the pot. We get a little back and our fellow mages benefit greatly from that instead of more pot.</p>

Rockefeller 08-02-2011 01:29 PM

<p><cite>Cisgo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>    Personally I think these are great changes, do you really want AA's like Implode, or an entire useless Agl. line ? As for utility a conjuror can now bring group stoneskins, Elem Tox., an enhanced raid buff, 10% group power reduction, as well as group potency. That people is a ton of nice utility. Now if they kept the SDA as is and gave summoners all these improvements, how long do you think it would take for the sorcerers and predators to complain ? (and rightfully so).</p><p>    As it stands right now alot of those "T1" type DPS classes rerolled to conjuror do to thier massive improvements last 2 expacs. As for DPS, summoners are doing very well (conjurors esp.), now hand them a bunch more utility, some potency, two new AoEs, a couple more DD spells, and without taking something back and you may have an imbalance issue. I am not saying that I like losing SDA for the pet, but let's be real these AA changes for the most part are very nice. Thumb through all the conjuror posts complaining about thier pet drawing aggro cause of it's power. Well, Sony listened and presented an entire Wis. line for that.</p><p>    There had to be a ceiling with this class somewhere, the DPS is T1 and the utility exceeds other T1 classes for the most part. Try to look beyond the SDA and realize there are five nice AA lines now, and choosing the 100 points will be difficult now (although I bet some will start to whine and complain they need increase the line beyond 100). Also, I wouldn't call the 7.4% potency for you and your pet trival, that is a nice little increase. Also, factor in the 10% more pet health from the stamina line that will do wonders for Soulburn. Again, I am not saying that I like losing SDA, but I do like all the changes of the useless AA's, and givin the choice I think it's a fair sacrifice. The DPS will still be competitive, aggro issues have been addressed, and the utility has been improved.</p></blockquote><p>You are just being silly now. I do acknowledge that the Devs are trying to break the mold on cookie-cutter AA specs, but the fact is they failed. Everyone will still spec one way, because the reality is that is the only viable option. They did present some "interesting" changes but in the process they robbed us of one of our best AA options. One of the big concerns they we're attempting to address was pet aggro. As it stands, no summoner with half a brain will spec for these new aggro management AA's. So what was the point? This is a failure that they need to acknowledge and start over. All this effort to create new AA's no one will use? Instead of reinventing the wheel, how about making the 2-3 dumbfire pet spells on both summoners hotbars a viable cast option, be it utility or dps? How about fixing the useless pet stances as a means to manage pet aggro instead of creating wasted AA options. Really, you need to look past the glitz of the new and focus on what is being handed to us.</p>

Cisgo 08-02-2011 03:25 PM

<p>     I am not in disagreement with you guys, I do not like the SDA removal. However, I am trying to look at the positives. And there are some nice changes from the unused portions of the Summoner line. The hate had to be addressed, not only for raiders, but soloers who were complaining of tank pet issues. If ppl spec Wisdom line or not, Sony does not have to field anymore complaints of necro tank pets or conjuror mage pet aggro, they have provided a solution. When looking at this new AA structure you have to consider aspecs other than the raiding summoner.</p><p>    The reason I stress the potency, increased pet health, utility, and the new AoE/DDs is because they are positives. They may not equate to the SDA, however they are still positives. They have taken a bunch of unused AAs and at least created options that some will like and use, if they group, solo or raid. Raiding summoners might be less of a DPS force (although probably not as much as is being stated on the forums) by losing some pet SDA, however the new AAs will better round out the summoner class.</p>

Xelgad 08-02-2011 03:38 PM

<div><div><div>We decided to scrap the pet Spell Multi-Attack (Doublecast) for several reasons.  First, we wanted to move away from pet-specific AAs. As some of you know, scout pets did technically get some benefit from SDA because their attacks are classified as spells, but fighter pets did not really benefit at all. Additionally, in terms of AA versus AA balance (within the Summoner tree), Focused Minion was obviously much too powerful. At least to some degree, that was the result of the improvements to SDA in GU60. Back in Sentinel's Fate Beta, we balanced the amount of SDA for this AA taking into account that pets used some DoTs that would not get full benefit. Lastly, we don't think Summoners are in need of any boosts in power on Live currently, but we have been looking forward to revamping the Summoner AA tree for years. Our goal is to revamp the tree without giving a signficiant net gain (or loss) in power to the class.</div> <div> </div><div>Literally every AA in the tree is subject to change based on your feedback, and I'm hopeful we'll be able to get it set up so that you guys are reasonably happy with it even without the old Focused Minion.</div></div></div>

Banditman 08-02-2011 03:58 PM

<p>If your goal is to keep Summoners at their present level of power, you need to re-think this.</p><p>You want to remove SDA from Focused Minion.  Ok.  Gotcha.  You think that the fact that DoT's being able to DA may have improved the DPS *slightly*.  Fine.  Maybe it did.  I personally didn't notice, but whatever.</p><p>Put 10% SDA on pet Offensive stances. </p><p>Reducing the SDA by 2.5% should take into account for any small increase that SDA applying to DoTs may have added.</p><p>Putting it on the Offensive stance puts it SOLIDLY where it should be, part of the offensive capabilities of the pet.  This ALSO has the added benefit of making the pet offensives stances, you know, USEFUL.</p><p>Finally, SDA applying or not applying to the Scout is irrelevant.  No one currently uses the Scout pet or cares to.  It doesn't provide NEARLY enough benefit.  Just for giggles, I ran my Scout in a raid last night.  I can provide parses if you like.  It was terrible.  I lost nearly HALF of my DPS for ludicrously miniscule benefit.  The Scout pet is beyond broken mechanically and needs to be completely reworked.  Yes, I know, you "reworked" it for DoV.  Unfortunately, you didn't fix the problem.  You simply added some utility to it in the hopes that it would attract some use.  Fix the mechanical problems, then we can talk about what level of utility would be required to attract some use.</p>

Rhadamanth 08-02-2011 04:25 PM

<p>I think it would be nice if Cabalistic Conservation could be toggleable and allow us to give a portion of our Lich power regeneration to the group (or possibly any of our power regeneration).  So, for a given amount of power we get per tick, we could either give a % of that to each group member, or a % of our regeneration would be split to the group.  For example, if Lich gives us 1000 power per tick, and 20% of it was shared, then either 200 power would be given to each group member, or 200 power would be split evenly between all group members.  Obviously the amount of power given would need to be balanced and these numbers are used just to give an idea of how it could work.  At least this way, we would be given a way to give power to our pet and it would be useful to a group as well. </p><p>EDIT:  Forgot about conjurors...  Though perhaps the spell could just allow a transfer of the summoner's power to the pet each tick.  Each rank could make the efficiency better; as in how much power the summoner gives up versus the power given to the pet. </p>

Xillean 08-02-2011 04:30 PM

<p>Xelgad any chance you might consider switching the 5 pot on team work to 5 sda for the grp then? since you made it clear we arent getting our minion back, also please scrap reanimate and give us empower servant back we need that power pet heal for our pet.</p>

Cisgo 08-02-2011 05:17 PM

<p>    Would like to see Empower Servant back as well if possible, although I think Reanimate is a decent ability option. I was thinking more on the lines of replacing Magician's Aptitude with Empower Servant.</p><p>    Also, would like to see an increase in Perceptor's Bodyguard. The summoners that utilize a tank pet are taking a big hit from 25% to 10% health. Would like to see that raised to 15 or 20% for all pets. This will lessen the pet health hit on the soloers, as well as give a slight boost to the raiders with thier Soulburns, in light of the SDA removal.</p>

Banditman 08-02-2011 05:30 PM

<p><cite>Cisgo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>    Would like to see Empower Servant back as well if possible, although I think Reanimate is a decent ability option. I was thinking more on the lines of replacing Magician's Aptitude with Empower Servant.</p></blockquote><p>Reanimate is a terrible option, the pet summoned by Reanimate is an Apprentice level pet, regardless of what version is in your book.  It has been this way since AA's were introduced.  It has been reported since then and has not been corrected.</p><p>Casting an Apprentice level pet is never worth it.</p>

Cisgo 08-02-2011 05:42 PM

<p>  That is supposed to be fixed and has been reported, when fixed you still gonna have that same opinion? Rather than just jump on my posts how about some constructive ideas instead of promoting arguements.</p>

Xillean 08-02-2011 05:46 PM

<p>I will still feel that way mate, not trying to rail on you at all, but we have dimsional storage, bloodpact or a death save if your a conjy, even bubble has uses, short of it is you already have a ton of ways to save the pet we dont need another IMO. If we can get reanimate fixed and empower servant back of course id want both. As it is given a choice between the two give us empower servant back over that any day.</p>

acctlc 08-02-2011 05:59 PM

<p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><div><div><div>We decided to scrap the pet Spell Multi-Attack (Doublecast) for several reasons.  First, we wanted to move away from pet-specific AAs. As some of you know, scout pets did technically get some benefit from SDA because their attacks are classified as spells, but fighter pets did not really benefit at all. Additionally, in terms of AA versus AA balance (within the Summoner tree), Focused Minion was obviously much too powerful. At least to some degree, that was the result of the improvements to SDA in GU60. Back in Sentinel's Fate Beta, we balanced the amount of SDA for this AA taking into account that pets used some DoTs that would not get full benefit. Lastly, we don't think Summoners are in need of any boosts in power on Live currently, but we have been looking forward to revamping the Summoner AA tree for years. Our goal is to revamp the tree without giving a signficiant net gain (or loss) in power to the class.</div> <div> </div><div>Literally every AA in the tree is subject to change based on your feedback, and I'm hopeful we'll be able to get it set up so that you guys are reasonably happy with it even without the old Focused Minion.</div></div></div></blockquote><p>So, other classes had SDA  available, and numerous dots.  Did they lose theirs as well?  Last I checked the wizard was still beating me more times than not on the parse, even with my pets SDA.  Yes, yes I know we're summoners..we're not supposed to be wizards.  But as is there isn't enough slots on a raid for dps classes and you guys are throwing in YET ANOTHER one at us in November?   It's always been my opinion that if you don't want us to dps like t1 we need more unique utility. </p><p>That being said I'll go ahead and give my thumbs up to the suggestion that others have made to give the "utility" endline something unique, put some SDA on Teamwork (5% seems fair).   Soo many classes give potency to group its laughable, even crusaders.  Give us something unique, we know SDA isn't  going to be itemized heavily.  Give folks a reason to keep that summoner in the group with the sorcerer.</p><p>Your goal to revamp the summoner tree without any net loss is a bit laughable.  You've put a nice blue aoe on there that heroic summoners will probably love and perhaps not feel the loss of the SDA.  I however primarily raid.  I don't often go up to an epics bum to cast my *current* blue aoe, as I risk going splat.  Now I almost feel like I have to consider spec'ing this line to even try to make up the lost dps of my SDA (It probably won't, unless its a multimob heavy zone).  Have you considered making this a green aoe spell to compensate raiders stuck 90% of the time at range?  SDA sure worked great for us at range....</p><p>Another *very* valid point made here is that so far in this amazing AA revamp, the offensive pet stance still does nothing for the dps of the pet.  I'm really disappointed that this still remains the case..especially with the enhance AA for it out there in the aa tree.</p><p>And I still want my empower servant back please.  Group power reduction is a joke.  Animate is an interesting aa (mostly for conjurors), if you can fix it to work.  But keeping the pet full on power is a necessity and while maybe not endline worthy, definitely better than the group saving a tiny chunk of power with chanters around.  Does anyone find Magician's Aptitude even remotely appealing in the Sentinals Attributes here???  I know I don't as a conjuror, if necro's do then please speak up.  Otherwise I'd suggest scrapping it and putting Empower servant there. It was a great aa, just change it to affect all pets rather than just the mage pet to continue to be in line with aa's affecting all pets.</p>

Nrgy 08-02-2011 06:21 PM

<p><span style="font-family: ">Pets, especially Mage pets, will be OOM half way through long fights and become useless as long as ‘Empowered Servant’ is removed.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: ">Reanimate will remain useless as long as it reanimates adept level pets when the summoner has learned a more advanced spell.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: ">‘Unflinching Servant’ will remain useless for all but fighter pets as long as spells and CA’s are excluded.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: ">Magic leash (IMO) is now useless because 1) the pets will be doing much less damage due to no SDA and 2) Symbiosis with or without Enhanced Symbiosis will easily outweigh any threat reduction leash provides.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Furthermore, fighter pets gain a positional movement whereas mage or bard pets do not.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Why bother keeping this as an AA.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: ">The benefit levels of Pet applied buffs from Teamwork and Cabalistic Conversion seem initially too low to make any noticeable difference for players in upper tier settings.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: ">Cabalist’s Cover seems to be the same as Minions Warding, 1) do they stack or 2) is Minions Warding being changed / removed?</span></p><p><span style="font-family: ">The notes read [</span><span style="font-family: ">Animist’s Evasion reduces the <strong><span style="text-decoration: underline;">caster’s</span></strong> threat position by 24]... is this meant to read caster or pet?</span></p><ul><li><span style="font-family: ">Pet Threat Modifiers:</span><ul><li><span style="font-family: ">Magic leash … remains too weak to make any different in Hate</span></li><li><span style="font-family: ">Minion’s Attention … Proc which now will take the place of all other Hate mods unless it has a poor proc rate</span></li><li><span style="font-family: ">Symbiosis … Used in cases of extreme summoner hate mismanagement due tolower  DPS and no longer required due to the lact of SDA</span></li><li><span style="font-family: ">Enhanced Symbiosis … Too costly in AA for the return @ 1% per rank</span></li><li><span style="font-family: ">Preceptor’s Command … (Removed)</span></li></ul></li></ul><p><span style="font-family: ">Over all I can not say I'm excited about these changes as they seriously favor those summoners who have had class issues managing pet hate.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>This does not encompass all summoners and those which have successfully overcome <span style="line-height: 115%; font-family: ">perceived  </span>obstacles experienced by others will be greatly hindered by these updates.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Utility is based on usefulness a class brings to a group and saving a small amount of power or adding a couple of DPS to a group certainly does not shoot summoners to the top of any utility class list.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>There are more hate modifying tools provided with these updates, but at a cost of overall pet DPS.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Why bother adding in Hate modifying tools AND reducing the reason to use them at the same time.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">  </span>Add that to the additional utility which is very lackluster at best and will be downright unnoticeable in well-organized grouping environments.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: ">/Boo</span></p>

Nrgy 08-02-2011 06:26 PM

<p><cite>Cisgo wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>  That is supposed to be fixed and has been reported, when fixed you still gonna have that same opinion? Rather than just jump on my posts how about some constructive ideas instead of promoting arguements.</p></blockquote><p>This was reported as broken a long time ago, the assumption was since NOBODY ever used a Scout pet nobody cared.  Now that it will apply to all pets maybe somebody will care.  Hopefully this actually WILL be fixed when GU61 is released.  I'll remain hopeful and not look back at the 2+ year old broken mechanic on the to-do list.</p>

Xillean 08-02-2011 06:26 PM

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>If your goal is to keep Summoners at their present level of power, you need to re-think this.</p><p>You want to remove SDA from Focused Minion.  Ok.  Gotcha.  You think that the fact that DoT's being able to DA may have improved the DPS *slightly*.  Fine.  Maybe it did.  I personally didn't notice, but whatever.</p><p>Put 10% SDA on pet Offensive stances. </p><p>Reducing the SDA by 2.5% should take into account for any small increase that SDA applying to DoTs may have added.</p><p>Putting it on the Offensive stance puts it SOLIDLY where it should be, part of the offensive capabilities of the pet.  This ALSO has the added benefit of making the pet offensives stances, you know, USEFUL.</p><p>Finally, SDA applying or not applying to the Scout is irrelevant.  No one currently uses the Scout pet or cares to.  It doesn't provide NEARLY enough benefit.  Just for giggles, I ran my Scout in a raid last night.  I can provide parses if you like.  It was terrible.  I lost nearly HALF of my DPS for ludicrously miniscule benefit.  The Scout pet is beyond broken mechanically and needs to be completely reworked.  Yes, I know, you "reworked" it for DoV.  Unfortunately, you didn't fix the problem.  You simply added some utility to it in the hopes that it would attract some use.  Fix the mechanical problems, then we can talk about what level of utility would be required to attract some use.</p></blockquote><p>^ this 100 times over, adding spell double to our offesnive stance would def make said stance worth using.</p>

Rockefeller 08-02-2011 07:30 PM

<p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><div><div><div>We decided to scrap the pet Spell Multi-Attack (Doublecast) for several reasons.  First, we wanted to move away from pet-specific AAs. As some of you know, scout pets did technically get some benefit from SDA because their attacks are classified as spells, but fighter pets did not really benefit at all. Additionally, in terms of AA versus AA balance (within the Summoner tree), Focused Minion was obviously much too powerful. At least to some degree, that was the result of the improvements to SDA in GU60. Back in Sentinel's Fate Beta, we balanced the amount of SDA for this AA taking into account that pets used some DoTs that would not get full benefit. Lastly, we don't think Summoners are in need of any boosts in power on Live currently, but we have been looking forward to revamping the Summoner AA tree for years. Our goal is to revamp the tree without giving a signficiant net gain (or loss) in power to the class.</div><div> </div><div>Literally every AA in the tree is subject to change based on your feedback, and I'm hopeful we'll be able to get it set up so that you guys are reasonably happy with it even without the old Focused Minion.</div></div></div></blockquote><p>Thank you Xelgad for the feedback. We understand you ar every busy and you can't address every question, but it is nice to know our concerns are not falling on deaf ears. We do appreciate it when you Devs chime in every now and then.</p><p>Focused Minion was indeed a very powerful AA option, however it also played a factor in keeping summoners competitive as well as viable option in grouping and raids. Most of us will be sad to see it go, but if it can be replaced with an option that provides significant utility or personal dps possiblities, i think you will see a drastic change in sentiment amongst the summoners on these boards.</p><p>Our concern is that while some of the changes proposed on test do show promise, in their current versions, they will not make up for the loss of Focused Minion. In your own words you are content with summoner's power on live. However we will need to receive some sort additional modification to make up for its loss.</p><p>The easiest approach would be to just create some sort of benefit (dps or utlitity) to make up for Focused Minion.</p><p>Another approach which requires a little more work on your part would be to address some very longstanding and evident flaws within the class before progessing onto AA modications. 1) Our dumbfire pets are entirely useless. If they were changed to a direct damage spell that was worthy of casting, or possibly a eaiser implementation would be if they were some sort of useful utility, not only would you be fixing a key class flaw, it would open up new AA enhancement possiblities. Effectively this kills two birds with one stone. The same can be said for summoner pet stances. While the defensive pet stance does show some promise (merely for soloing summoners) the offensive stance has no purpose whatsoever. If these could be altered so they would be useful whether soloing, grouping, raiding, this would be a great acheivement. Everytime i look at these spells on my hotbar i shake my head at the fact that the we have these class defining abilities that serve no purpose. First make these useful, then build upon enhancing them with our AAs.</p>

Oink 08-02-2011 07:34 PM

<p><cite>Nrgy wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><ul><li><span style="font-family: ">Pet Threat Modifiers:</span><ul><li><span style="font-family: ">Magic leash … remains too weak to make any different in Hate</span></li><li><span style="font-family: ">Minion’s Attention … Proc which now will take the place of all other Hate mods unless it has a poor proc rate</span></li><li><span style="font-family: ">Symbiosis … Used in cases of extreme summoner hate mismanagement due tolower  DPS and no longer required due to the lact of SDA</span></li><li><span style="font-family: ">Enhanced Symbiosis … Too costly in AA for the return @ 1% per rank</span></li><li><span style="font-family: ">Preceptor’s Command … (Removed)</span></li></ul></li></ul></blockquote><p>Perceptor's Command was merged into magic leash as one AA, for both mage (and scout, heh) dehate, and fighter +hate.  It's still useful for some playstyles for the guaranteed +1 position hate w/ full points.</p><p>And with the choice of using symbiosis for hate transfer from mage pet to the summoner, the -24 position does need to be for us not for pet.</p>

Oink 08-02-2011 07:42 PM

<p><cite>Rockefeller wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p> 1) Our dumbfire pets are entirely useless. If they were changed to a direct damage spell that was worthy of casting, or possibly a eaiser implementation would be if they were some sort of useful utility, not only would you be fixing a key class flaw, it would open up new AA enhancement possiblities. Effectively this kills two birds with one stone. The same can be said for summoner pet stances. While the defensive pet stance does show some promise (merely for soloing summoners) the offensive stance has no purpose whatsoever. If these could be altered so they would be useful whether soloing, grouping, raiding, this would be a great acheivement. Everytime i look at these spells on my hotbar i shake my head at the fact that the we have these class defining abilities that serve no purpose. First make these useful, then build upon enhancing them with our AAs.</p></blockquote><p>Dumbfires combined with Arcane Bewilderment is single-handedly the most powerful tool for agro management a soloing summoner curently has.  Calling dumbfires entirely useless is only true for certain playstyles, which summoners shouldn't be pidgeon holed into.  I would like to see the return of shared states with temporary pets, which was temporarily on the DOV beta.</p><p>Additionally, while the stances were useless on conjurors, they always had nice proc benifits for necromancers.</p>

Rockefeller 08-02-2011 08:05 PM

<p><cite><a href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a> wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><blockquote><p>Dumbfires combined with Arcane Bewilderment is single-handedly the most powerful tool for agro management a soloing summoner curently has.  Calling dumbfires entirely useless is only true for certain playstyles, which summoners shouldn't be pidgeon holed into.  I would like to see the return of shared states with temporary pets, which was temporarily on the DOV beta.</p><p><span style="color: #339966;"><strong>That's all great, i dont want to discriminate against any one's particular play style but this is a <span style="font-size: small;"><span style="text-decoration: underline;">MMO</span></span>rpg. Personally I would rather see this changed to benefit the other 2/3rds+ people who understand this and group and raid in addition to soloing. However, you do bring up some good points.</strong></span></p><p>Additionally, while the stances were useless on conjurors, they always had nice proc benifits for necromancers.</p><p><strong><span style="color: #339966;">I don't understand your argument. You admit Conj's benefit none at all and you'd rather have some minuscule proc then have the stances changed to offer real benefit to your pet?</span></strong></p><p><strong></strong></p></blockquote></blockquote>

Dtot 08-02-2011 09:01 PM

<p>So now scouts and fighters have there auto attacks able to hit upwards to 8 times every 3-6 seconds. wizards, warlocks, illys all get sda. Were so [Removed for Content] i probly will lose my raid spot to lack of utility/dps. Thanks SOE you just trashed the one class i do like!!!! there has been plenty of ideas thown out there to help the class that you guys dont even listen too!!!!!</p><p>Make our dumb fire pets WORK that has been an issue for a very very very long time going on 5 years now i think. as soon as i cast them there dead to a repost ae auto attack or the mob just LOOKS AT THEM!!!</p><p>y do we need reanamate we have DS that gives us one pet!! pet power would be better bc with out it mage pet is drained in mins tops theres no spell for us to give them power unless the enchanter desides to target our pet and feed it to them</p><p>We have enchanters for power y does the summoners have to have a grp power buff?? Stupid</p><p>we no longer need the dehates unless the tanks are to stupid to cast a taunt LULZ!!! our dps is gone to crap now..</p><p>the spells that we cast for out pets interupt our pets casting making them cancle our pets 50 k nuke for 2k another stupid idea</p><p>let etox have SDA on it like focus casting or time warp theres an idea</p><p>insted of the agi endline of basic pot for the pets how about giving Mage sda Scout flury and Tank Strikethough or taunt proc on auto attack like the sk there suppose to be!!!</p><p>we have giving you all good ideas that will not leave us op and still give us a fighting chance to get a raid spot</p>

denmom 08-02-2011 11:09 PM

<p>Yanno, I just started a little Conjy, and after reading all of this I'm heavily considering not furthering it.  In fact, I'm close to deletion.</p><p>I'd not raid with her, it was just to play one because I'd never have in my years of playing EQ2.</p><p>I'd not have Focused Minion until L81 anyhow, but from what I'm reading it's a huge hit to dps.  Luckily, the folks I'd run her with don't care about dps as much as is the mob dead.</p><p>The largest thing that has me twitching, I'll admit, is the trees.  Right now I have points in the Conjy tree, I haven't touched the Summoner tree yet and probably won't until I get the Conjy tree filled as I'd like.  But knowing this is coming down the pipe, I'm becoming loathe to continue on her.  I have a choice: do I get her to L50 fast so when the changes come through she won't lose much or do I just continue in the level locking and taking my time thru content?</p><p>I'd rather take my time, but I really do not like the idea of being hindered.  I tend to solo a lot.</p><p>Anyhow, I just wanted to say something from the pov of someone new to the Summoner class who really isn't sure whether or not to continue to play the class given the changes.</p>

Trensharo 08-03-2011 03:27 AM

<p>Xelgad...</p><p>...</p><p>...</p><p>I don't know what to say.</p><p>Nerfed cause of DoTs scaling with SDA?</p><p>That's the same update you gave Warlocks 10 Seconds of 100% SDA for all their DoTs and Nukes.  The same update you made the Wizard Mythical even better on their spells with DoT components.</p><p>You guys need to get off ur toosh and fix the offensive stances.  It's simply inexcusable that you come here trying to save face by giving a weak excuse like that for something so blatantly inexcusable.</p><p>Nothing was stopping you guys form giving 16% Flurry for Scout, 12.8% SDA for Mage Pet, and whatever you felt for the tank pet in the same AA.  Just like you did with the pet group buffs in the revamp.</p><p>The only reason why the SDA on the mage pet seemed SO great compared to what other pets get is cause Unflinching Servant is useless except on MOBs that drain mana and you guys are lazy and failed year after year to fix the scout pet...  Or Offensive Stances...  And you're still not doing anything about those two GLARING issues.</p>

theriatis 08-03-2011 04:58 AM

<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That's the same update you gave Warlocks 10 Seconds of 100% SDA for all their DoTs and Nukes.  The same update you made the Wizard Mythical even better on their spells with DoT components.</p><p>You guys need to get off ur toosh and fix the offensive stances.  It's simply inexcusable that you come here trying to save face by giving a weak excuse like that for something so blatantly inexcusable.</p><p>Nothing was stopping you guys form giving 16% Flurry for Scout, 12.8% SDA for Mage Pet, and whatever you felt for the tank pet in the same AA.  Just like you did with the pet group buffs in the revamp.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah well... Wizards had to do their mythical quests which other classes just get with AA. Great. Can i have other classes Mythical features as AAs (exclusively) as well ?</p><p>Or like, say, a Trakanons Gaze Effect, which we farmed a year till it dropped ONCE, as AA ? (24 Hate Positions which the Conjis get "for free" now).</p><p>The Pet is the thing which does most of the Damage on a Conji (at least its what i get told). If you get SDA on the Mage Pet "for free" (and i consider some AA as "free"), can i have 5% SDA also "for free" -> to specc with AA ?</p><p>I also would do a quest to update the Mythical for that.</p><p>theriatis.</p>

Trensharo 08-03-2011 07:18 AM

<p><cite>theriatis wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>That's the same update you gave Warlocks 10 Seconds of 100% SDA for all their DoTs and Nukes.  The same update you made the Wizard Mythical even better on their spells with DoT components.</p><p>You guys need to get off ur toosh and fix the offensive stances.  It's simply inexcusable that you come here trying to save face by giving a weak excuse like that for something so blatantly inexcusable.</p><p>Nothing was stopping you guys form giving 16% Flurry for Scout, 12.8% SDA for Mage Pet, and whatever you felt for the tank pet in the same AA.  Just like you did with the pet group buffs in the revamp.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah well... Wizards had to do their mythical quests which other classes just get with AA. Great. Can i have other classes Mythical features as AAs (exclusively) as well ?</p><p>Or like, say, a Trakanons Gaze Effect, which we farmed a year till it dropped ONCE, as AA ? (24 Hate Positions which the Conjis get "for free" now).</p><p>The Pet is the thing which does most of the Damage on a Conji (at least its what i get told). If you get SDA on the Mage Pet "for free" (and i consider some AA as "free"), can i have 5% SDA also "for free" -> to specc with AA ?</p><p>I also would do a quest to update the Mythical for that.</p><p>theriatis.</p></blockquote><p>I'm not sure why I'm even going to entertain this nonsensical post.</p><p>8 AAs it not free.  Illies get 5% SDA on their TC that you get truly "for free" when you're in group with them.  You can get SDA from jewelry set bonuses and Adornments "for free."</p><p>The Wizard Mythical SDA is more "free" than the mage pet SDA seeing as how you get it in buff form and it doesn't even have a concentration cost.  It's 2011.  Epics and getting Mythical buffs aren't hard to get anymore.  Move on.  GU60 came out recently, and the dev in this thread is using DoT SDA mechanics as a reason for removing the mage pet SDA when there are classes that benefit just as much as the mage pet did from it.  Nevermind they put in more than one 100% SDA skills in the game but didn't turn around and nerf things like Wizard Mythical or DoT damage to compensate.</p><p>It's a cop-out.  And I was pointing it out.  You don't have to get butt-hurt cause I mentioned that mythical.  It's too obvious an example to pass up.</p>

Sigmaz01 08-03-2011 07:42 AM

<p>Consider this...</p><p>Fixed the Ooze pet and Hydro pets for the summoners. I suggest removing the ooze crawler completely and allow any pet to cast its debuff ability giving necros a reason to be in raid right there. The hydro pet should be removed completely and allow any pet to cast its AE blocker and give a group ward/spell stoneskin. Note that the group ward/spell stoneskin will be a group buff while the AE blocker will be a cast spell with a duration of 1min and recast of  30 secs (aborsbing 2x AE hit) while the necro pet will cast the debuff once every 1min as the recast will be 1min and the duration the spell will be 1min 30 secs. Another fix would be just letting these pets be cast side by side with our main pets allowing us to have two pets..one for utility and another for dps or tankage ( i think beastlords are gonna have 2x warders at the same time anyway).</p><p> Fix Undead Horde by allowing undead horde to be completely immune to AEs or letting bloodpact prevent our pets from being hit by AEs. Also make the pets scale with our stats. Or give us a Plane Shift <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /> and call it Dark Transformation!</p><p>Fix dumbfire pets!! allow them to scale with our stats and let them be immune to AEs.</p><p>and last but not least...fix the [Removed for Content] scout pet and tank pets stupidness! they do not cast their abilities often! this is why our tank pets cant keep aggro! we dont need aggro management AAs! our scout pet is not used because their ability to cast thier spells is just not there! Fix this and the scout pet will be used for single target fights! (remove the group buffs from scout pets and make teamwork provide 10% MA/flurry and 10% potency or 5% SDA while using either the scout or mage pets).</p><p>Another good fix is to allow our mage auto attack stats scale with our scout and tank pets and make our mage pet spell auto attack to off set the lost of 12.8% SDA ( tank pets need to also scale with our stam).</p>

Banditman 08-03-2011 10:20 AM

<p>Make Dumbfire pets AE immune, let them inherit stats from the summoner and THEN you might have a place to start talking about removing our pet SDA.</p><p>Doing one or the other won't cut it.  If the pets aren't AE immune, they are useless.  If the pets don't inherit our stats, they are useless.  It needs to be both, and it might begin to offset the loss from Focused Minion.</p><p>Oh, and it will further make our class "different" than some other classes.</p>

Xillean 08-03-2011 10:48 AM

<p>So Xelgad could you let us know if its possible? please let our temp pets be aoe immune (or let our bloodpact cover them when thier up either or) and let them share our stats. With the loss of the SDA I dont think this is op in anyway, please let us know your thoughts.</p><p>And for 21 total aa for the Ooze and the Hydro please let us summon them alongside our primary pet, that is a ton off aa for a pet that only does one thing (ooze debuffs) and a few things if its the hydro none of which are anywhere near good enough to justify giving up our primary pets. Let us know if your even consdiering htis, I mean come on mate its 21 aa, have you looked at what they do? you cant tell us with the cost of 21 aa and what they do it justifys losing our primary pet.</p><p>These two changes for us would go a long way imo, the debuff is nice on the ooze and for me id spend the aa for him if he was alongside my priamry pet, it would also give us more desireable utility. Same for the hydro. Temp pets being aoe immune in some way when up and sharing our stats would help offeset the dps loss of sda and would give us a more unqie feeling, we are summoners after all, why cant we have pets that do something other then die when summoned?</p>

MackGee 08-03-2011 10:50 AM

<p><span style="font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="font-family: Verdana;"><span>I spent several hours on Test. I messed with the new AA's, I parsed on dummies (group, heroic, and epic), overland content trash and named, and a few ^^^ heroics. Overall I have seen my DPS very consistent to where it was on Live. Most of my parses have actually increased 2-3%.  The Thueurgist's Detonation AA is a nice bump in DPS, especially when you're fighting grouped mobs. You can also macro Shadow Step into any other spell since it’s a free instant cast. </span></span><span style="font-family: Verdana;">Normally aggro isn't that big an issue during raids for a necro, but for instance runs it's been tough since shared stats were introduced. In my experience just about any instance I run I'm resummoning my pet multiple times per run due to it grabbing aggro and dying. So the detaunts will definitely help with this, as well as Reanimate (as long as it reanimates a "master" pet) for when he does die. </span><span style="font-family: Verdana;">Also take a look at how much they've done to add aggro transfer and hate to our tank pet, how many times have we heard "the tank pet sucks because he can't hold aggro, fix it!"? Yeah I know we are only supposed to use our mage pet, but for the more difficult soloing the tank pet is a must.</span><span style="font-family: Verdana;">I've heard necros complain for years about "we have no raid desirability" because we don't bring anything to a group or raid. Well now they've given us an AA line that brings something more than just our DPS and rezzes to the raid. </span><span style="font-family: Verdana;"><span>So far on this thread I’ve seen more people pick out ONE thing we lost and do nothing but hone in on it, while mostly ignoring what they've actually done to help fix the class. Enough already about losing the SDA for pets, get on to Test run some parses like I did and you'll see it's not doomsday after all...</span></span></span></p>

Xillean 08-03-2011 11:07 AM

<p>I have been on test on my necro and have been parsing against several dummies from normal to heroic to the epics and went out and fought names all over Velious. My dps went down, not by tons, and I never have said tons, but via what I see from Xelgad the intent wasn’t to nerf us or increase our dps but to fix our utility. If that’s the case then yes we need a small boost imo to get back to where we are on live.Mind you from my findings the longer the fight goes on the more stable I get, however against epic dummies (I raid on my necro I care about long fights mostly) I did see my dps lower.Letting Teamwork grant 5 sda isn’t asking to be op and it’s a group buff, so it prevents us from getting a dps increase over other mages since they will receive the same benefit of sda. I really want to know what Xelgad feels about that one suggestion. As far as what we now bring that’s the point, I am sorry but at endgame 2.4 more pot for the raid isn’t squat, and neither is 10% power reduction group wide. I’d rather see the power thing be a power proc based off us dpsing to proc it feeding our grp some power. That would allow it to somewhat give power after mana drains.Let’s not forget to get the above mentioned you have to spend 18 aa total, that’s a huge amount of aa for a small benefit. Make those two choices worth it and then we can talk about where our dps is at. Fixing our Temps pets does more than just give us some dps back, it also fixes a problem we have had for years, two birds with one stone kind of deal. I don’t know about you but I WANT to cast my temp pets, I really do, I love being a summoner, but for me to cast them they have to do something other than lower my parse.And lastly mate it seems you are focusing on the rest of the community complaining about the loss of sda, but I see tons of us asking about other things including our ooze/hydro pet. I can accept our sda is gone, if our utility granted makes up for it and right now, no it does not. I can also accept it if they make our temp pets useful, make our ooze/hydro castable alongside our primary pet (I mean come on its 21 aa for the thing) and do something about our O stance. When in O stance, make this a aa option if you must why can’t it grant small amount of flurry for scout, sda for mage, or multi for tank?Above all else Xelgad please give us AA ways to make our temp pets useful, O stance useful, and just modify the ooze/hydro to be until canceled alongside our primary pet. I don’t care if costs aa, I don’t care if it costs a substantial amount of aa, just give us choices and options.</p>

urgthock 08-03-2011 11:10 AM

<p><cite>[email protected] wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So Xelgad could you let us know if its possible? please let our temp pets be aoe immune (or let our bloodpact cover them when thier up either or) and let them share our stats. With the loss of the SDA I dont think this is op in anyway, please let us know your thoughts.</p></blockquote><p>Conjurers don't get bloodpact so they would get no benefit from bloodpact covering dumbfire pets. They need to just make all temporary pets (warden [tree], mystic [attendant], summoner [dumbfires], warlock [netherlord], etc) AoE immune and share stats. Or make dumbfire damage pets dots and make all others AoE immune and share stats. It should be consistent across the board for all temporary abilities. Imagine if all other classes temp abilities could be randomly "dispelled"; which in essence is what happens to all classes that use dumbfire pets.  The screaming would be unreal.</p>

Xillean 08-03-2011 11:20 AM

<p>Every necro I have ever spoken with have all agreed your Bubble should be equal to our bloodpact, if your willing to take a 10% health loss for it like we do then I would hope Xelgad would change this for you guys <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" /></p><p>You have to spend the same amount of aa to get yours, I dont have any problem with that however if it isnt going to be changed then yes I agree the temp pets themsleves should be aoe immune. Sorry about that, I dont want anything for necros that our conjy kin cant get, we are summoners we should both work together to get much needed changes to our classes imo. And yes extend the sahred stats to any one with a temp pet, make the aoe immune as well, I dont see a problem with that personally.</p><p>To be clear I mention bloodpact and a fixed bubble because we are spending 21 aa total to chose them, for 21 aa it should protect the temp pets, I wont get into other classes, I am just trying to get some things changed for the summoners as is everyone else in this thread for the most part. I am not sure why they arent aoe immune to begin with I know in Velious Beta with our shared stats it was felt our damage was to much however with the loss of sda I dont think this is the case anymore, and they could always lower the damage output of the abilties of the temp pets if they still feel they would cuase to much damage.</p>

Banditman 08-03-2011 12:11 PM

<p>Conjurors can't take a health cost like that because we have no means to replace health as Necros do.</p><p>We already spend significantly more time "caring" for our pet than Necros do.  I say that not as a complaint but as a simple statement of fact.  We are more dependant on our pet, since many of the damage spells we cast are actually channeled through our pet.</p><p>And that's fine, so long as we have some tools to deal with the limitations that imposes.  Right now, we do lack some tools in certain situations, and this update further removes one of them (Animist Bond).</p>

Xillean 08-03-2011 12:34 PM

<p>I am not in any way agiasnt the temp pets being aoe immune as is. Making all temp pets immune to aoes across the board is the way to go it seems. And I agree with you, they have to share our stats or its pointless.</p>

urgthock 08-03-2011 12:35 PM

<p><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Conjurors can't take a health cost like that because we have no means to replace health as Necros do.</p><p>We already spend significantly more time "caring" for our pet than Necros do.  I say that not as a complaint but as a simple statement of fact.  We are more dependant on our pet, since many of the damage spells we cast are actually channeled through our pet.</p><p>And that's fine, so long as we have some tools to deal with the limitations that imposes.  Right now, we do lack some tools in certain situations, and this update further removes one of them (Animist Bond).</p></blockquote><p>Personally I think Bloodpact and Bubble are fine the way they are. It's a big deal for your "Main" pet to have AoE immunity and as such, the amount of AA needed to acquire bloodpact and bubble are warranted. The fact that Conjurers have to have their pet near them and stop attacking (I think... I play a necro) to gain this AoE immunity is balanced by the fact that it doesn't have a recurrent health cost. However, it simply would not be feasible for Bubble to effect dumbfire pets since they are not going to be near the conjurer most of the time and they obviously attack. If it stays as is, bubble couldn't cover dumbfires and if you change bubble to mimic necromancers bloodpact, it becomes a huge issue since, as stated before, the health loss would effect conjurers too much since they don't have lifetaps.</p><p>I just think that ALL classes temp pets and dumbfire pets should be automatically AoE immune and share stats so they can actually get the full end game benefit from casting the spell(s). I don't care how they work the mechanics to cause that to happen... it just needs to happen.</p>

Rockefeller 08-03-2011 12:43 PM

<p><cite>MackGee wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span style="font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="font-family: Verdana;"><span>I spent several hours on Test. I messed with the new AA's, I parsed on dummies (group, heroic, and epic), overland content trash and named, and a few ^^^ heroics. Overall I have seen my DPS very consistent to where it was on Live. Most of my parses have actually increased 2-3%.  The Thueurgist's Detonation AA is a nice bump in DPS, especially when you're fighting grouped mobs. You can also macro Shadow Step into any other spell since it’s a free instant cast. </span></span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><strong><span style="color: #339966;">Rather than making blind statements, can you post parses to prove this? I have found this to be quite the contrary.</span></strong><span style="font-family: Verdana;">Normally aggro isn't that big an issue during raids for a necro, but for instance runs it's been tough since shared stats were introduced. In my experience just about any instance I run I'm resummoning my pet multiple times per run due to it grabbing aggro and dying. So the detaunts will definitely help with this, as well as Reanimate (as long as it reanimates a "master" pet) for when he does die. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><strong><span style="color: #339966;">The reality is we dont need a whole AA line to manage aggro. For one, a  good summoner can manage their own aggro. The tank pet sucks at holding aggro because it is flawed. The best way to correct this is thru fixing the pet stances. In addition, they could throw in a couple unique aggro management AAs but we certainly dont need a whole line devoted to aggro. </span></strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="font-family: Verdana;">Also take a look at how much they've done to add aggro transfer and hate to our tank pet, how many times have we heard "the tank pet sucks because he can't hold aggro, fix it!"? Yeah I know we are only supposed to use our mage pet, but for the more difficult soloing the tank pet is a must.</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><strong><span style="color: #339966;">See above ...</span></strong><span style="font-family: Verdana;">I've heard necros complain for years about "we have no raid desirability" because we don't bring anything to a group or raid. Well now they've given us an AA line that brings something more than just our DPS and rezzes to the raid.</span></span><span style="font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><p><strong><span style="color: #339966;">No one is saying we wouldnt desire more ulility, the problem is the utlitity they are giving us is crap compared to what we are giving up. What are we getting to provide our group/raid? Mana reduction and additional potency. Have you read anything people have posted? Mana reduction is a joke, and a ity bity more potency when everyone is running around with 100 plus already?</span></strong></p><p><span style="font-family: Verdana;"><span>So far on this thread I’ve seen more people pick out ONE thing we lost and do nothing but hone in on it, while mostly ignoring what they've actually done to help fix the class. Enough already about losing the SDA for pets, get on to Test run some parses like I did and you'll see it's not doomsday after all...</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: Verdana; color: #339966;"><span><strong>Of course people are upset. This is a net loss and you just cant see it. Again. Dont just make statements. Post parses. i want to see them.</strong></span></span></p></span></p></blockquote>

Stimpelton 08-03-2011 01:51 PM

<p>So what you are saying basically is that you will take our opinions into account other than the only two that every person is screaming about? Good call.....</p><p>This game is nothing more than DPS at the moment with unbalanced mechanics and what-not. The only thing that is consistent is the fact that conj,wiz,nec,lock,assy,rng are top DPS classes when gear is consistent. Why take away a primary "DPS" aa and replace it with a "bull" utility increase? Which by the way... you cant spec down the STR line for the new decent AOE and still get 10%hp, 5 pot, and the increase in the mage pet casting and reuse.... So... I will probably say screw your new 5% POS AA. More nerf...thanks!</p><p>If you have this forum....use it. We play the class on live...do you? We pay you $15 a month......and whatever else you rip from us in marketplace. Work for us....</p>

Lantis 08-03-2011 02:04 PM

<p>Why not kill two birds with one stone, and move at least part of the lost DA to our currently useless offensive stance?  As far as I recall, stances are already pet-specific, so it wouldn't affect this new plan of making AAs pet-agnostic.  Make it as low as 2% if you want.  And if it's still not properly balanced, a new AA that improves our pet stances could compensate.</p>

Banditman 08-03-2011 02:33 PM

<p><cite>urgthock wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Personally I think Bloodpact and Bubble are fine the way they are. It's a big deal for your "Main" pet to have AoE immunity and as such, the amount of AA needed to acquire bloodpact and bubble are warranted. The fact that Conjurers have to have their pet near them and stop attacking (I think... I play a necro) to gain this AoE immunity is balanced by the fact that it doesn't have a recurrent health cost. However, it simply would not be feasible for Bubble to effect dumbfire pets since they are not going to be near the conjurer most of the time and they obviously attack. If it stays as is, bubble couldn't cover dumbfires and if you change bubble to mimic necromancers bloodpact, it becomes a huge issue since, as stated before, the health loss would effect conjurers too much since they don't have lifetaps.</p><p>I just think that ALL classes temp pets and dumbfire pets should be automatically AoE immune and share stats so they can actually get the full end game benefit from casting the spell(s). I don't care how they work the mechanics to cause that to happen... it just needs to happen.</p></blockquote><p>If it were only that simple.</p><p>Bubble is basically a buff that radiates from the Conjuror, and pulses every 2.5 seconds.  If the pet has made no attacks since the last pulse of Bubble, the immunity buff gets applied to the pet.  If he has made attacks, then no buff.  So, if my pet finishes an attack, for instance, .1 seconds after the last pulse, he would then have to wait 4.9 seconds for the buff to apply.</p><p>You have no way to tell when the pulses are happening, unless your pet is there, not attacking.  Then you can see it.  You can't tell easily when it's on, when it's off and you can't do anything about it.  It's just not a good mechanic for AE immunity.</p>

MackGee 08-03-2011 05:40 PM

<p><cite>Rockefeller wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>MackGee wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><span><span>I spent several hours on Test. I messed with the new AA's, I parsed on dummies (group, heroic, and epic), overland content trash and named, and a few ^^^ heroics. Overall I have seen my DPS very consistent to where it was on Live. Most of my parses have actually increased 2-3%.  The Thueurgist's Detonation AA is a nice bump in DPS, especially when you're fighting grouped mobs. You can also macro Shadow Step into any other spell since it’s a free instant cast. </span></span></span></p><p><span><strong><span>Rather than making blind statements, can you post parses to prove this? I have found this to be quite the contrary.</span></strong></span></p><p><ul><li>It's not a blind statement if I say I'm seeing a 2-3% increase then it's because I am.  A quick example is 50-52K on Epic dummy on Live, and 53-55K on Test.</li></ul></p><p><span><span>Normally aggro isn't that big an issue during raids for a necro, but for instance runs it's been tough since shared stats were introduced. In my experience just about any instance I run I'm resummoning my pet multiple times per run due to it grabbing aggro and dying. So the detaunts will definitely help with this, as well as Reanimate (as long as it reanimates a "master" pet) for when he does die. </span></span></p><p><span><strong><span>The reality is we dont need a whole AA line to manage aggro. For one, a  good summoner can manage their own aggro. The tank pet [Removed for Content] at holding aggro because it is flawed. The best way to correct this is thru fixing the pet stances. In addition, they could throw in a couple unique aggro management AAs but we certainly dont need a whole line devoted to aggro.</span></strong></span></p><p><ul><li>We had VERY little aggro management before these changes, the way we would "manage" aggro is either back off our pet or slow down on our casting.  By doing this our DPS would suffer.  So now we have some tools to help us manage our pets and our aggro without slowing down our DPS.  As far as the tank pet is concerned these changes also provide us ways to give him more aggro, so he can hold mobs where that's always been a challenge in the past.</li></ul></p><p><span><span>Also take a look at how much they've done to add aggro transfer and hate to our tank pet, how many times have we heard "the tank pet [Removed for Content] because he can't hold aggro, fix it!"? Yeah I know we are only supposed to use our mage pet, but for the more difficult soloing the tank pet is a must.</span></span></p><p><span><strong><span>See above ...</span></strong></span></p><p><ul><li>See above ...</li></ul><span><span>I've heard necros complain for years about "we have no raid desirability" because we don't bring anything to a group or raid. Well now they've given us an AA line that brings something more than just our DPS and rezzes to the raid.</span></span></p><p><strong><span>No one is saying we wouldnt desire more ulility, the problem is the utlitity they are giving us is [Removed for Content] compared to what we are giving up. What are we getting to provide our group/raid? Mana reduction and additional potency. Have you read anything people have posted? Mana reduction is a joke, and a ity bity more potency when everyone is running around with 100 plus already?</span></strong></p><p><ul><li>Again I don't see a fault in what we're giving up because my parses show no loss in DPS.  I doubt I'll spec into this line either, I agree with you the pot and power reduction aren't enough to justify spending the AA to get it, I can see the points better spent in the other four lines.</li></ul></p><p><span><span>So far on this thread I’ve seen more people pick out ONE thing we lost and do nothing but hone in on it, while mostly ignoring what they've actually done to help fix the class. Enough already about losing the SDA for pets, get on to Test run some parses like I did and you'll see it's not doomsday after all...</span></span></p><p><span><span><strong>Of course people are upset. This is a net loss and you just cant see it. Again. Dont just make statements. Post parses. i want to see them.</strong></span></span></p><p><ul><li>I really don't think it's necessary for me to put a screen cap of a parse up here, in fact it's more work than I wish to do, I made the tests myself for myown benefit, and if I had seen a drop in DPS then I would be shouting "nerf" to the devs just as much as you.  I've played my necro since launch, and I welcome the attention we are finally getting to our AA's.</li></ul></p></blockquote></blockquote>

Rockefeller 08-03-2011 06:50 PM

<p><cite>MackGee wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rockefeller wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>MackGee wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><span><span><span>I spent several hours on Test. I messed with the new AA's, I parsed on dummies (group, heroic, and epic), overland content trash and named, and a few ^^^ heroics. Overall I have seen my DPS very consistent to where it was on Live. Most of my parses have actually increased 2-3%.  The Thueurgist's Detonation AA is a nice bump in DPS, especially when you're fighting grouped mobs. You can also macro Shadow Step into any other spell since it’s a free instant cast. </span></span></span></p><p><span><strong><span>Rather than making blind statements, can you post parses to prove this? I have found this to be quite the contrary.</span></strong></span></p><p><ul><li>It's not a blind statement if I say I'm seeing a 2-3% increase then it's because I am.  A quick example is 50-52K on Epic dummy on Live, and 53-55K on Test.</li></ul></p><p><span><span>Normally aggro isn't that big an issue during raids for a necro, but for instance runs it's been tough since shared stats were introduced. In my experience just about any instance I run I'm resummoning my pet multiple times per run due to it grabbing aggro and dying. So the detaunts will definitely help with this, as well as Reanimate (as long as it reanimates a "master" pet) for when he does die. </span></span></p><p><span><strong><span>The reality is we dont need a whole AA line to manage aggro. For one, a  good summoner can manage their own aggro. The tank pet [Removed for Content] at holding aggro because it is flawed. The best way to correct this is thru fixing the pet stances. In addition, they could throw in a couple unique aggro management AAs but we certainly dont need a whole line devoted to aggro.</span></strong></span></p><p><ul><li>We had VERY little aggro management before these changes, the way we would "manage" aggro is either back off our pet or slow down on our casting.  By doing this our DPS would suffer.  So now we have some tools to help us manage our pets and our aggro without slowing down our DPS.  As far as the tank pet is concerned these changes also provide us ways to give him more aggro, so he can hold mobs where that's always been a challenge in the past.</li></ul></p><p><span><span>Also take a look at how much they've done to add aggro transfer and hate to our tank pet, how many times have we heard "the tank pet [Removed for Content] because he can't hold aggro, fix it!"? Yeah I know we are only supposed to use our mage pet, but for the more difficult soloing the tank pet is a must.</span></span></p><p><span><strong><span>See above ...</span></strong></span></p><p><ul><li>See above ...</li></ul><span><span>I've heard necros complain for years about "we have no raid desirability" because we don't bring anything to a group or raid. Well now they've given us an AA line that brings something more than just our DPS and rezzes to the raid.</span></span></p><p><strong><span>No one is saying we wouldnt desire more ulility, the problem is the utlitity they are giving us is [Removed for Content] compared to what we are giving up. What are we getting to provide our group/raid? Mana reduction and additional potency. Have you read anything people have posted? Mana reduction is a joke, and a ity bity more potency when everyone is running around with 100 plus already?</span></strong></p><p><ul><li>Again I don't see a fault in what we're giving up because my parses show no loss in DPS.  I doubt I'll spec into this line either, I agree with you the pot and power reduction aren't enough to justify spending the AA to get it, I can see the points better spent in the other four lines.</li></ul></p><p><span><span>So far on this thread I’ve seen more people pick out ONE thing we lost and do nothing but hone in on it, while mostly ignoring what they've actually done to help fix the class. Enough already about losing the SDA for pets, get on to Test run some parses like I did and you'll see it's not doomsday after all...</span></span></p><p><span><span><strong>Of course people are upset. This is a net loss and you just cant see it. Again. Dont just make statements. Post parses. i want to see them.</strong></span></span></p><p><ul><li>I really don't think it's necessary for me to put a screen cap of a parse up here, in fact it's more work than I wish to do, I made the tests myself for myown benefit, and if I had seen a drop in DPS then I would be shouting "nerf" to the devs just as much as you.  I've played my necro since launch, and I welcome the attention we are finally getting to our AA's.</li></ul></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><p><span style="font-family: "><span style="color: #ffffff;">No parse no proof. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: "><span style="color: #ffffff;">Oh I’m sorry your DPS is suffering because of a lack or deaggro options. HOW IS THIS different for any other DPS class? Even if those classes have deaggro abilities, they either 1) have to stop casting until the tank gets hate back or 2) cast their deaggro abilities. NEWFLASH: either option means they are not DPSing and their parse is suffering. Managing threat is one of the nuances that DPS classes have always had to deal with. It’s always come easier to summoners because or total hate is split with our pet but that doesn’t mean we are immune to it. Get use to it!</span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: "><span style="color: #ffffff;">To boot you’re a Necro, either you are far over geared with the players you are playing with, or your tanks are HORRID! You certainly dont require any major form of deaggro and as summoners we certainly don’t require an entire AA line devoted to this. </span></span></p>

Amanathia 08-03-2011 10:42 PM

<p>I doubt anyone is reading this but:</p><p>1.  If you need to nerf SDA, okay, but don't take it away entirely, without it pet's DPS will tank horribly.  Reduce it to 8 or 10%, okay, fine...throw it on the offensive stance, too...this makes sense as it'd slightly nerf soulburn DPS, too...would be fair....it'd give a reason to use it.</p><p>2.  If reanimate summons an apprentice level pet it's pointless.  If coding a fix is too hard just make it make the next pet spell instant cast, so it requires two clicks instead of one.  Whatever, that'd be fine.</p><p>3.  Pet HP NEEDS TO SCALE.  Not a ton, no one is asking for a 70k hp pet.  But it needs to scale, and so does its resists.  I don't care if you make it so the resists don't scale as much in pvp, or the health doesn't scale as much in pvp, or whatever, but the way content currently works, pet HP NEEDS TO SCALE.  I'm sure this will eventually happen when beastlords come out though, so there is hope!</p><p>Oh, and you know, IS THERE ANY FIX FOR THE TANK AND SCOUT PET NOT USING THEIR ABILITIES...LIKE, AT ALL???</p><p>Hafta laugh at the SDA effects the scout pet thing...uhmm...well....it would, if the scout pet used it's abilities.  It doens't, or almost never does.  Same with tank pet.</p>

Trensharo 08-04-2011 01:04 AM

<p>Agree.  Unless the Agro stuff is accompanied by mechanics changes the Necro Tank pet will still be terrible, cause it barely ever casts its taunts.  14 minute dummy fight and it cast them 5 and 7 times respectively.  14 minutes is enough time for it to cast them 84 and 118 times if they are cast the minute they come up.</p><p>It's laughable that a mechanic that basically defines more than 2 classes in the game is completely broken.</p><p>And they took years to fix Summoner tree.</p><p>Maybe pet AI/mechanics fixes coming in 2015?</p>

joseph 08-04-2011 04:30 AM

<p>Please Please dont take the spell DA from focused minion  away .</p><p>thats my only gripe. </p><p>the rest looks ok  though i like the pet AOE </p><p>but you gotta leave the spell DA as it is please. </p>

Dreft 08-04-2011 06:43 AM

<p>Ok, here is an innovative fix for loss of pet SDA.</p><p>Just give the pet +30 % potency ... same thing Sony did for Warlocks with the mythical.  Wizards got SDA, Warlocks got +30% potency.  Ok sure you lost a theoretical double damage spell 1 in 8 casts.  You gain ( your pet gains ) +30% damage to all attacks.  Granted Sony is going to say thats way too much, but its what they did for wizards and warlocks.</p><p>Recnam 90/300</p><p>Crushbone</p>

Beee 08-04-2011 08:17 AM

<blockquote><p>Please Please dont take the spell DA from focused minion  away .</p><p>thats my only gripe. </p></blockquote><p>We will really miss the SDA of of pet. Please do not remove it <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" /></p>

Xalmat 08-04-2011 09:42 AM

<p><cite>Dreft wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Just give the pet +30 % potency ... same thing Sony did for Warlocks with the mythical.  Wizards got SDA, Warlocks got +30% potency.  Ok sure you lost a theoretical double damage spell 1 in 8 casts.  You gain ( your pet gains ) +30% damage to all attacks.  Granted Sony is going to say thats way too much, but its what they did for wizards and warlocks.</p></blockquote><p>The Summoner pets are already 17% better thanks to the Epic Repercussions buff. It isn't insignificant.</p>

Talathion 08-04-2011 01:47 PM

<p>Remember when Warriors had 76% Multi-Attack and 8% Riposte Chance in they're tree?</p><p>It got nerfed to 24% and Block Chance.</p>

Xalmat 08-04-2011 04:31 PM

<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Remember when Warriors had 76% Multi-Attack and 8% Riposte Chance in they're tree?</p><p>It got nerfed to 24% and Block Chance.</p></blockquote><p>Warriors were also pidgeonholed into using Bucklers, and nothing else. They couldn't even dual wield with that AA line.</p><p>Being able to use a Tower Shield and having the Multi-Attack affect their offhand <em>far</em> outweighed the negatives. And besides if a Warrior could get their Multi-Attack high enough, the line became useless anyway.</p><p>The same cannot be said for Summoners.</p>

Talathion 08-04-2011 04:33 PM

<p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Remember when Warriors had 76% Multi-Attack and 8% Riposte Chance in they're tree?</p><p>It got nerfed to 24% and Block Chance.</p></blockquote><p>Warriors were also pidgeonholed into using Bucklers, and nothing else. They couldn't even dual wield with that AA line.</p><p>Being able to use a Tower Shield and having the Multi-Attack affect their offhand <em>far</em> outweighed the negatives. And besides if a Warrior could get their Multi-Attack high enough, the line became useless anyway.</p><p>The same cannot be said for Summoners.</p></blockquote><p>Thats what the guardian's mythical did.</p><p>and the Uncontested Avoidance was amazing, IMO <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Stimpelton 08-04-2011 06:15 PM

<p>We need to make more noise about our pets power replenish AA...</p><p><span style="font-size: x-large;">GIVE US BACK OUR PETS POWER REPLENISH! At least....Dont hit us with the SUPER NERF STICK!</span></p>

RedIris 08-05-2011 01:28 AM

<p>Reading xelgad's post, I get the distinct feeling he is still oblivious to how the ai is broken for the melee pets.  Having a goal to balance aa around all 4 pets when only 1 of them is useful in all group/raid content strikes me as being out of touch with the state of the game for summoners.It has been posted, reported and noted 100's of times before, yet still somehow oblivious.For years now, the melee pets very rarely ever use their abilities, their ai has a major error in it.  This is as simple as I can put it, they wait to use combat art's until they are ready to auto attack, which is the only time they shouldn't use a combat art as it delays the auto attack.  The rest of the time they stand there and do nothing, time they should be using to do combat arts.</p><p>We are not talking about the scout needs to do 15% more dps to be competitive, we are talking about the scout pet needs to do 400% more dps to be competitive.  Ie, broken in a literal sense not a hyperbolic one.</p><p>Everytime you talk about buffing the scout pet without fixing the ai, it strikes me as sensible as giving a new paint job to the broken down rust job abandoned in the junk yard.  I just stand there with my jaw agap wondering what the point is.  After all these years, how have we failed to succesfully commmunicate to you just how badly broken the scout(and tank pet) is.</p>

Trensharo 08-05-2011 09:55 PM

<p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Xalmat wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>[email protected] Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Remember when Warriors had 76% Multi-Attack and 8% Riposte Chance in they're tree?</p><p>It got nerfed to 24% and Block Chance.</p></blockquote><p>Warriors were also pidgeonholed into using Bucklers, and nothing else. They couldn't even dual wield with that AA line.</p><p>Being able to use a Tower Shield and having the Multi-Attack affect their offhand <em>far</em> outweighed the negatives. And besides if a Warrior could get their Multi-Attack high enough, the line became useless anyway.</p><p>The same cannot be said for Summoners.</p></blockquote><p>Thats what the guardian's mythical did.</p><p>and the Uncontested Avoidance was amazing, IMO <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>This thread isn't about warriors.  This is completely off-topic and disruptive.  You do nothing but troll the forums looking for threads the devs post in (that you assume they are monitoring) to vomit warrior QQ all over them.</p><p>Stop it.</p>

metalhed 08-06-2011 12:55 PM

<p>Losing Empower Servant is not good.</p><p>On live with pet only attacking an epic training dummy - Pet killed the dummy never got below 95% power</p><p>On test with pet only attacking an epic training dummy speced with the 10% group power reduction - Pet ran out of power with the dummy having 68% health.</p><p>That is a huge difference, going to make any raid mob that has a power drain terrible.</p><p>Having no power regen in a group or raid, I see alot of killing the pet and recasting it.</p><p>Stuff like this takes away the fun factor.</p><p>I would rather keep the current aa tree, change Magic Leash to the hate postion drop proc that is currently on test and call it a day. Losing the SMA is terrible too btw.</p><p>Would like to see bubble be more useful, you ever watch a summoner pet on the Tert fight?So easy to lose a pet cause of the pathing, the pet doesn't need to move in order to cast on Tert but it does. This is just a perfect example of how no human on this earth currently knows how to make pet pathing work correctly lol, it's not just EQ2 it is all games. Having aoe prevention on the primary pets would make this less annoying.</p>

squidexplosion 08-06-2011 03:06 PM

<p>Just adding my 2 cents worth--first about summoner (spec Conj) then about Nerfs in general.</p><p>Removing Spell DA is an awfully big hit esp for 90/300 Conj. If you happen to get lucky and do a spell DA in combo with Elemental blast losing that will cost thousands of damage point potential. So you get a single digit potency to "make up" for that? Stinks to put it mildly.</p><p>Ok Now for the idea of nerfing classes to get "balance" in the game. I've been playing EQ2 since day 4 of it's launch and regardless of what class get nerfed I've seen as totally unfair. Why if a class is getting a bonus on something (caused by SoE programmers btw--not the players) do you always go with a negative approach? Instead of yanking a nice spell away from a class to make it all "fair" why not give some nice spells to the other classes to create balance?</p><p>Case it point from way back in the day--Pallys and SK's were the only toons with horses. Naturally anyone who didn't roll those classes whined.. SoE's "fix" dropped pally/sk mounts to 10% instead of making it easier for other classes to obtain a mount. I know thats a long time ago but it does show the pattern SoE has taken basically from day 1.</p>

metalhed 08-06-2011 07:17 PM

<p><cite>Xelgad wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><div><div><div>We decided to scrap the pet Spell Multi-Attack (Doublecast) for several reasons.  First, we wanted to move away from pet-specific AAs. As some of you know, scout pets did technically get some benefit from SDA because their attacks are classified as spells, but fighter pets did not really benefit at all. Additionally, in terms of AA versus AA balance (within the Summoner tree), Focused Minion was obviously much too powerful. At least to some degree, that was the result of the improvements to SDA in GU60. Back in Sentinel's Fate Beta, we balanced the amount of SDA for this AA taking into account that pets used some DoTs that would not get full benefit. Lastly, we don't think Summoners are in need of any boosts in power on Live currently, but we have been looking forward to revamping the Summoner AA tree for years.<span style="color: #ff0000;"> Our goal is to revamp the tree without giving a signficiant net gain (or loss) in power to the class.</span></div><div><span style="color: #ff0000;"> </span></div><div>Literally every AA in the tree is subject to change based on your feedback, and I'm hopeful we'll be able to get it set up so that you guys are reasonably happy with it even without the old Focused Minion.</div></div></div></blockquote><p>Parsed some herioc TD's on Live and Test. These are pet only parses, couldn't use Epic because the pet currently on test cannot kill one without running out of power.</p><p>The AA Spec on Test is using Max casting speed in INT, with Teamwork spec. (which I think most will not use, most will spec for 10% more pet health.)</p><p>This is a ZW from killing 5 Herioc TD's.</p><p>TEST:      All: (02:50) | 4594170 | 27025 | [Conjpet-Fury of the Elements-78777]Conjpet | 4594170 | 27025</p><p>LIVE:      All: (02:34) | 4655875 | 30233 | [Conjpet-Fury of the Elements-74249]Conjpet | 4655875 | 30233</p><p>Don't like the word signficiant, but if 3k less isn't considered signficiant then I would like a increase by 3k more than live.</p>


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