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-   -   WE already said no to your agro changes...Please don't slip them in. (https://archive.eq2wire.com//showthread.php?t=372659)

Darien al'Staff 07-20-2007 03:00 PM

Troub hate nerf?  Luck of the Dirge/Blessing nerf?  Come on guys. 

Darien al'Staff 07-20-2007 03:08 PM

<li>Modified effectiveness on certain hate increase/reduction/transfer abilities on scout classes and coercers. This makes all achievements that modify hate more worthwhile, and places slightly more responsibility on predators/rogues in controlling their aggro generation.</li><ul><li>Assassin - Shadows: Reduced percentage</li><li>Ranger - Reconnoiter: Reduced percentage</li><li>Swashbuckler - Swarthy Distraction: Reduced percentage</li><li>Brigand - Confound Adversaries: Increased trigger percentage. Doubled hate reduction amount, but removed hate position decrease.</li><li>Dirge - Hyran's Angry Sonata: Lower level bonuses are higher than before, but its highest level upgrade bonuses are slightly reduced.</li><li>Troubador - Alin's Serene Serenade: Its highest level upgrade bonuses are reduced by 3%.</li><li>Coercer - Smirking Demeanor: Reduced hate increase component, but added a hate transfer component. This allows it provide additional hate transfer bonuses, even when the hate increase percentage cap is reached.</li></ul> THIS IS THE SAME STUFF that we said we DID NOT WANT IN last update...and now you push it in? You REDUCE troubadour hate?  BECAUSE SORCS ALREADY HAVE NO AGRO ISSUES, RIGHT? Brigands - HOW MANY TIMES did brigands point out their already huge agro issues? Swashy/Assassin transfer nerf:  COME ON GUYS.  Ranger Nerf:  Because the rangers (who are still putting up INCREDIBLE numbers on the high end) don't use EVERY BIT of their de-agro?  This is getting ridiculous.  If you say you're not going to put something in, then don't do it.  Trying to slip it in on the next update is incredibly shady.  TAKE THESE OUT The only one that is even SLIGHTLY acceptable in my mind is the change to coercers. 

Tandy 07-20-2007 03:11 PM

I just wonder WHO decided the coercers get the shaft to make the dirge hate buff stack better? dirge requires conc slot...coercers doesnt....wouldnt it make more sense to nerf dirge one more so they stack with the coercer buff that requires NOTHING to use? dont bards have enough issues with not enough conc slots?

Snorm 07-20-2007 03:16 PM

<p>As I noted in another post, the formatting on this is at best very strange. Can someone confirm on test that any of the abilities are actually changed?</p><p> Snorm -- 70 Guard</p>

Lord Montague 07-20-2007 03:18 PM

<p>So basically you guys want to knee-jerk whine and cry like babies and jumpt to conclusions that this is earth shattering and game breaking before seeing exactly what the changes are going to be and assuming they will be the same as what they were in GU36's original form.  How typical.</p><p>I'd say go take a look on test before you pass judgement on anything.  That's what I intend to do at any rate.</p>

FiveFootStep 07-20-2007 03:21 PM

I'm with you S, but my first instinct is that this sucks. I already have aggro problems a lot, and I hope they decide to undo this if it is like what I think  it will be like .

FiveFootStep 07-20-2007 03:22 PM

God I suck at typing.

CapnJax21 07-20-2007 03:23 PM

[email protected] Bayle wrote: <blockquote><p>So basically you guys want to knee-jerk whine and cry like babies and jumpt to conclusions that this is earth shattering and game breaking before seeing exactly what the changes are going to be and assuming they will be the same as what they were in GU36's original form.  How typical.</p><p>I'd say go take a look on test before you pass judgement on anything.  That's what I intend to do at any rate.</p></blockquote><p>Reconnieter went from 41% hate reduction to 27% - thats a 35% deduction.</p><p>Thats a value that is alarming.  Ridiculous </p>

jjlo69 07-20-2007 03:24 PM

<p>ill be happy to go test if soe would let me copy my 70 ranger over other wise the update will be put in and my knee jerk rants will have to do until then kk thanx</p><p>morzerk</p>

Anxi 07-20-2007 03:37 PM

<cite>CapnJax21 wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <p>Reconnieter went from 41% hate reduction to 27% - thats a 35% deduction.</p><p>Thats a value that is alarming.  Ridiculous </p></blockquote> That's a 14% reduction in value not 35%, but still the community does not want the aggro changes nor are the nerfs warranted furthermore I cannot think of a logical explanation for the hate changes.

Mr. Dawki 07-20-2007 03:39 PM

<p>/quote everything everyone said before me</p><p>I'M MAD!</p><p>and they tried to sneek it in under the warden spells so no one would notice [Removed for Content]?</p><p>( and no i dont see it as an honest mistake because its exactly the underhanded crap SOE would try to pull)</p>

Yindari 07-20-2007 03:40 PM

It is a 35% change (14% difference) If we say 41% is the 100% value of deaggro then having 27% deaggro is only 65% of the original value making it a 35% change.

Mr. Dawki 07-20-2007 03:43 PM

<p>another thing here</p><p> SK's rely on these abilitys to actualy hold aro, so with these changes and nothing done to help tanks hold agro better</p><p>ONE all tanks are going to have headaches</p><p>TWO sk's will never be a vialblle tank again</p>

CapnJax21 07-20-2007 03:45 PM

[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><cite>CapnJax21 wrote:</cite><blockquote>[email protected] Bayle wrote: <p>Reconnieter went from 41% hate reduction to 27% - thats a 35% deduction.</p><p>Thats a value that is alarming.  Ridiculous </p></blockquote> That's a 14% reduction in value not 35%, but still the community does not want the aggro changes nor are the nerfs warranted furthermore I cannot think of a logical explanation for the hate changes. </blockquote><p> I was looking at it differently.  If a an item costs $41 dollars, and is now $27 - thats a 35% reduction.  Anway - still there's no explanation for the hate changes.  Wait......</p><p>Dev1:  "Lets make rangers watch their aggro a lil more.  They got it too easy in raids. Lets kill their deaggro buff..." Dev2:  "I don't think they'll like that too much.  How bout we decrease their doubleattack value so they won't be DPSing as much - they won't know." Dev1:  "I like that idea - two negatives make positive!  Tell Kirstie to add it to the test patch notes."</p>

Bre 07-20-2007 03:51 PM

<p>Well, ranger ad 3 Primal Agility is 23% on test right now. I bugged it because I missed where they stuck the note about it. But I have to say, I in no way agree with or like the change.</p><p>Brega - 70 Ranger, Test Server</p>

Kirstie 07-20-2007 03:56 PM

Mr. Dawkins wrote: <blockquote><p>/quote everything everyone said before me</p><p>I'M MAD!</p><p>and they tried to sneek it in under the warden spells so no one would notice [I cannot control my vocabulary]?</p><p>( and no i dont see it as an honest mistake because its exactly the underhanded crap SOE would try to pull)</p></blockquote> I moved them around in the update notes so they are easier to read.   I can't comment on the class balancing itself, and will leave that up to the designers, but there was absolutely no intention to hide them in the update notes. - K

Anxi 07-20-2007 04:02 PM

<blockquote>I moved them around in the update notes so they are easier to read.   I can't comment on the class balancing itself, and will leave that up to the designers, but there was absolutely no intention to hide them in the update notes. - K </blockquote>Perhaps you can encourage the designers to comment on the class "balancing" as you call it.

Darien al'Staff 07-20-2007 04:03 PM

[email protected] wrote: <blockquote><blockquote>I moved them around in the update notes so they are easier to read.   I can't comment on the class balancing itself, and will leave that up to the designers, but there was absolutely no intention to hide them in the update notes. - K </blockquote>Perhaps you can encourage the designers to comment on the class "balancing" as you call it. </blockquote>QFE

Aven Elonis 07-20-2007 04:11 PM

<p>Nightmares of aggro control coming to town near you. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

Eriol 07-20-2007 04:13 PM

Aven Elonis wrote: <blockquote><p>Nightmares of aggro control coming to town near you. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>You mean you'll actually have to restrain yourselves like Mages have had to for a long time?  Say it ain't so!

Kaleyen 07-20-2007 04:14 PM

<cite>Eriol wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aven Elonis wrote: <blockquote><p>Nightmares of aggro control coming to town near you. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>You mean you'll actually have to restrain yourselves like Mages have had to for a long time?  Say it ain't so! </blockquote>Dude...as of Aven's signature he/she is a Guardian...

CapnJax21 07-20-2007 04:17 PM

<cite>Eriol wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aven Elonis wrote: <blockquote><p>Nightmares of aggro control coming to town near you. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>You mean you'll actually have to restrain yourselves like Mages have had to for a long time?  Say it ain't so! </blockquote><p> Why do mages care who parses higher?  I've seen mages parsing higher than me.  I could care less!  Is there some DKP system that awards high parsing?</p><p>THERE IS NO WINNER IN THE PARSE - You can do what my guild has started to do, if anyone wants to know their parse, RUN ACT on their own machine and do not post it to the DPS channel.  An in-raid competition does nothing for the raid itself.  There are epics that we need to take out - together.  </p><p>For example - the mages in my guild gets upset when s/he doesn't make the parse or parses lower that s/he wishes.  So what do they do?  They manaburn in the beginning, tank loses aggro, mage(s) dead, feces hits the fan, raid wipes.</p><p>F THE PARSE! IT DOESN"T MATTER WHO WINS THE PARSE IF YOU CAN"T WIN THE ZONE!</p>

Darien al'Staff 07-20-2007 04:20 PM

<cite>CapnJax21 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eriol wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aven Elonis wrote: <blockquote><p>Nightmares of aggro control coming to town near you. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>You mean you'll actually have to restrain yourselves like Mages have had to for a long time?  Say it ain't so! </blockquote><p> Why do mages care who parses higher?  I've seen mages parsing higher than me.  I could care less!  Is there some DKP system that awards high parsing?</p><p>THERE IS NO WINNER IN THE PARSE - You can do what my guild has started to do, if anyone wants to know their parse, RUN ACT on their own machine and do not post it to the DPS channel.  An in-raid competition does nothing for the raid itself.  There are epics that we need to take out - together.  </p><p>For example - a mage in my guild gets upset when s/he doesn't make the parse or parses lower that s/he wishes.  So what do they do?  They manaburn in the beginning, tank loses aggro, wizzie dead, feces hits the fan, raid wipes.</p><p>F THE PARSE! IT DOESN"T MATTER WHO WINS THE PARSE IF YOU CAN"T WIN THE ZONE!</p></blockquote> Tell your wizard to ditch manaburn.  They'll get better results. 

CapnJax21 07-20-2007 04:22 PM

[email protected] DLere wrote: <blockquote><cite>CapnJax21 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eriol wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aven Elonis wrote: <blockquote><p>Nightmares of aggro control coming to town near you. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>You mean you'll actually have to restrain yourselves like Mages have had to for a long time?  Say it ain't so! </blockquote><p> Why do mages care who parses higher?  I've seen mages parsing higher than me.  I could care less!  Is there some DKP system that awards high parsing?</p><p>THERE IS NO WINNER IN THE PARSE - You can do what my guild has started to do, if anyone wants to know their parse, RUN ACT on their own machine and do not post it to the DPS channel.  An in-raid competition does nothing for the raid itself.  There are epics that we need to take out - together.  </p><p>For example - a mage in my guild gets upset when s/he doesn't make the parse or parses lower that s/he wishes.  So what do they do?  They manaburn in the beginning, tank loses aggro, wizzie dead, feces hits the fan, raid wipes.</p><p>F THE PARSE! IT DOESN"T MATTER WHO WINS THE PARSE IF YOU CAN"T WIN THE ZONE!</p></blockquote> Tell your wizard to ditch manaburn.  They'll get better results.  </blockquote>Yeah, they did already.  They've noticed a much improved difference.  I just don't understand what the fuss is about.  Winning the parse means nothing...

Kaleyen 07-20-2007 04:23 PM

Off Topic- Yes parses do matter, if you're Predators and Sorcerers are having troubles hitting 1500 zone wide as a Raid Leader you would WANT to know that, and I would hope that the Predators and Sorcerers who are throwing out those low numbers would want to know what they parse so they could improve. Back on Topic- Ok, so you weren't trying to sneak this into the update notes, honest mistake ok that's fine.  Question now is WHY are they there in the first place?

Agaxiq 07-20-2007 04:27 PM

<cite>CapnJax21 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eriol wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aven Elonis wrote: <blockquote><p>Nightmares of aggro control coming to town near you. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p></blockquote>You mean you'll actually have to restrain yourselves like Mages have had to for a long time?  Say it ain't so! </blockquote><p> Why do mages care who parses higher?  I've seen mages parsing higher than me.  I could care less!  Is there some DKP system that awards high parsing?</p><p>THERE IS NO WINNER IN THE PARSE - You can do what my guild has started to do, if anyone wants to know their parse, RUN ACT on their own machine and do not post it to the DPS channel.  An in-raid competition does nothing for the raid itself.  There are epics that we need to take out - together.  </p><p>For example - a mage in my guild gets upset when s/he doesn't make the parse or parses lower that s/he wishes.  So what do they do?  They manaburn in the beginning, tank loses aggro, wizzie dead, feces hits the fan, raid wipes.</p><p>F THE PARSE!</p></blockquote>We care because we can do significantly less damage in most cases and get agro 3x as easily.  And when we get agro, we die, period.  Your chain can often save you enough for the tank to taunt/rescue or for you to spam your de-hates. I care about the parse because while the tanks contribution is keeping agro, and the healers keeping everyone alive, my contribution is burning down mobs.  And when scouts can just go all out and rarely get agro while doing 600dps more than me because I have to hold back, something is wrong.  Heck, scouts can get 900dps just from autoattack.  Easy button FTW.  The only downside is that they are more susceptible to AOE's, but even Rangers largely don't have that problem.  Yes, they have to deal with arrows and poisons, but I'd gladly pay to use a poison potion to add a large chunk of DPS to my warlock. Scouts hate xfer = 23% or higher (AD3 if I recall, even after the nerf) Sorcerers = 4% at Master 1.  Yep, 4%.  Its about leveling the playing field - and feeling useful.  I feel even worse for brawlers, which is why my Bruiser is an alt now. agressiv

CapnJax21 07-20-2007 04:29 PM

[email protected] wrote: <blockquote>Off Topic- Yes parses do matter, if you're Predators and Sorcerers are having troubles hitting 1500 zone wide as a Raid Leader you would WANT to know that, and I would hope that the Predators and Sorcerers who are throwing out those low numbers would want to know what they parse so they could improve. Back on Topic- Ok, so you weren't trying to sneak this into the update notes, honest mistake ok that's fine.  Question now is WHY are they there in the first place? </blockquote><p> Using the parse for informational circumstances are fine.  I totally agree with you.  However, I have read countless posts where the pred/sorcerer envy has nothing to do with the betterment of the raid itself.  PVE is a friggen team sport for [Removed for Content] sake.</p><p>I get outparsed by the assassin in my guild (he's usually 1 and i'm around 2-3 zonewide at the end of the day).  Think I care?  Absolutely not.  We pat each other on the back if we get high parses.  We're teammates.  We're there for the same reason.  To win - as a team.  </p><p>I'm finding more and more sorceres being singleminded selfish players.  Is this a trend on all servers?</p>

CapnJax21 07-20-2007 04:33 PM

<p> <a href="mailto:[email protected]" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">[email protected]</a> wrote: </p><blockquote>Scouts hate xfer = 23% or higher (AD3 if I recall, even after the nerf) Sorcerers = 4% at Master 1.  Yep, 4%.  Its about leveling the playing field - and feeling useful.  I feel even worse for brawlers, which is why my Bruiser is an alt now. agressiv </blockquote><p>You didn't finish...</p><p>All rangers bring groupwise is PF (out of any of our permabuffs).  Sorcerers have more utility than we do.  You want to level the playing field?  Fine...</p><p>I don't have a sorcerer.  I don't know their spells/perma buffs - but I'm sure you guys have more to bring to a raid than we do.  If all we bring is DPS - then let us.</p>

Agaxiq 07-20-2007 04:40 PM

<cite>CapnJax21 wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="color: #006600">CapnJax21</span>  wrote:<p>I'm finding more and more sorceres being singleminded selfish players.  Is this a trend on all servers?</p></blockquote> We just ask for loving to even things out.  While I always have some sympathy for classes getting nerfed to balance things out, I would much rather be boosted instead.  That doesn't always happen, so bringing people back to reality sometimes is in order. Do I strive to win the parse?  Sure. Would I trade losing the parse for no wipes?  Definitely. Do I want everyone to be able to have to work as hard as me?  <b>Definitely. </b>Easy buttons FTL, if someone can slack and do much better than me thats just wrong.  Ultimately I don't care if they slack - if the raid is successful though.  Like everyone has pointed out - its a team.  The parse shows some of that team effort when it comes to DPS classes. agressiv edited: wrong quote <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kaleyen 07-20-2007 04:44 PM

You need to edit your quote cause I never wrote that :p


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