<p><cite>Primitive@Befallen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>So fighter balance to you is the population number of each fighter class? /scratches head</p></blockquote><p>Gratz on being the first one in this thread.</p><p>Gross population variances is one of many indicators of balance.</p>

<p><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I lived throughout the awful years where SKs literally couldn't do our basic job.</blockquote><p>Are you implying that shadowknights couldn't tank before TSO? I mean, if you wanna play that card that's cool and all, but you could literally swap the word shadowknight with the word guardian and apply this comment to TSO and beyond.</p><p>Regardless of massive population differences, does anyone in this thread seriously think fighters are anywhere close to balanced? I guess if you play a shadowknight or you ignore solo/pvp/grouping/off-tanking/MT pharm status content because none of that sht matters, then you could say fighters are more balanced than they have ever been. But you have to discredit a lot of content and roles to legitimatley say that.</p>

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Azian@Everfrost wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>I lived throughout the awful years where SKs literally couldn't do our basic job.</blockquote><p>Are you implying that shadowknights couldn't tank before TSO? I mean, if you wanna play that card that's cool and all, but you could literally swap the word shadowknight with the word guardian and apply this comment to TSO and beyond.</p><p>Regardless of massive population differences, does anyone in this thread seriously think fighters are anywhere close to balanced? I guess if you play a shadowknight or you ignore <strong>solo/pvp/grouping/off-tanking/MT pharm status </strong>content because none of that sht matters, then you could say fighters are more balanced than they have ever been. But you have to discredit a lot of content and roles to legitimatley say that.</p></blockquote><p><strong>Solo:</strong></p><p>No not "balanced". Again this has to do with the 3 plate tanks that are at the top have the ability to heal themselves (well for zerkers its also 50% dmg reduc), while having lots of aoe stuff. This is the mechanics of the classes as it stands and to change that would be basically making every class a cookie cutter.</p><p><strong>Group: </strong></p><p>Yesish. Any tank can hold agro just fine in group content. Almost all tanks can room pull (dont know how well monks or bruisers room pull. Guards can do it just fine if you cant as a guard then ask better guards how to play because i have seen it plenty of times and not in "uber gear" either. The issue of imbalance is when the fighters are all wearing treasured gear with only splotches of legendary. At this the ability for the fighters to help their healers heal themselves you then notice a difference again brawlers getting the worst of it because mit > avoid.</p><p><strong>PVP:</strong></p><p>No idea dont play it cant say anything on it.</p><p><strong>OT:</strong></p><p>Any tank can off tank any raid content. ANY TANK. This does not mean that they are all suited for it sure. Guards abilities dont really lead themselves to the OT roll. Brawlers are also more of a 3rd tank though i think its bruisers who can add snaps to a crap load of their CA's can make a good OT.</p><p><strong>MT:</strong></p><p>Any tank can MT any easy mode mobs. For HM mobs guards are better suited for dealing with the snap agro and spike damage over the other tanks. Though any tank can MT HM mobs (though it takes a REALLLLY geared out brawler to do it). Here it is pretty balanced.</p><p>Basically it is like this.... Lower end there is an imbalance (Soloing and to a lesser extent Grouping) again this has to do with the fact that the 3 "most populated" ranks can keep themselves healed with solo and heroic mobs not hitting that hard. If a Guard or Brawler loads up on Stonewill gear though then it is relatively comparable. Still a bit skewed in the other 3's favor. Since the majority of people are casual's that would explain the influs in those 3 classes. However if you balance for the lower part of the game then the upper part gets all Fed up. And you go back to how it was pre RoK. You just cant balance for both Raid and Group / Solo. Not to mention if you were to change it it would mean to remove all life taps from SK's and Heals from paladins and that heal stuff from zerkers. This would change the classes around entirly and they would no longer be what they were intended to be.</p>

there's no downside to being an aoe type tank. your single target numbers still hold up to or exceed single target type tanks on single target encounters.

<p>I really dont see what the point of this thread is.</p><p>Are you trying to say that because there are more SKs created/played that makes them better than other fighters?</p><p>Maybe people roll one and realise that its actually one hell of a fun class to play, add to that the fact lots of people dont join guilds/ groups and probebly chose a class that can solo very well.... again a SK.</p><p>Then i suppose there are some Muppets that roll a SK just because thay are deemed 'OP' atm and flavor of the month, good luck on your next charactor when another class gets some love.</p><p>And yes i played when SKs were useless too, didnt see anyone jumping on the band wagon then.</p><p>Anyway i can see the nurse coming back with the needle again..........</p><p>Be safe</p>

<p>Wow, the general public really are dumb lemmings. I mean, this is nothing new... it's just sad to see it confirmed every day.</p>

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Level 90 Only, All servers, 1/20/11</p><p>SK - 8,605</p><p>Berserker - 4,930</p><p>Paladin - 4,766</p><p>Monk - 3,716</p><p>Brusier - 3,656</p><p>Guardian - 3,137</p><p>I hope the expansion is trying to fix the Cluster-F they have made of fighter balance. Still a 275% variance from top to bottom.</p></blockquote><p>Keep up the good fight Wasuna!  I'll be adding my Guardian to the level 90 list within the next week.  When I get there, he will be shelved.  Not only because of the imbalance, but because there is no real reason to have him as an OT in raids as there are far better classes to fill the non-MT slots and OT slot.</p><p>Guess the only bonus to getting to 90 is the additional 10% bonus exp for my alts.</p>

<p><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Level 90 Only, All servers, 1/20/11</p><p>SK - 8,605</p><p>Berserker - 4,930</p><p>Paladin - 4,766</p><p>Monk - 3,716</p><p>Brusier - 3,656</p><p>Guardian - 3,137</p><p>I hope the expansion is trying to fix the Cluster-F they have made of fighter balance. Still a 275% variance from top to bottom.</p></blockquote><p>Keep up the good fight Wasuna!  I'll be adding my Guardian to the level 90 list within the next week.  When I get there, he will be shelved.  Not only because of the imbalance, but because there is no real reason to have him as an OT in raids as there are far better classes to fill the non-MT slots and OT slot.</p><p>Guess the only bonus to getting to 90 is the additional 10% bonus exp for my alts.</p></blockquote><p>Yeah, I've played and raided on a Guardian rather consistently since the game came out, but I've finally retired him for good. Guardians are such a joke class compared to other fighters, and especially Crusaders/Berserkers. My new Pally is closing in on 80, and the difference in power is astounding. Self-cures, self CC breaks, a billion AoEs, e-z mode aggro. The list goes on, and I can only imagine what SKs are capable of.</p><p>If these population numbers are even remotely accurate, it paints a telling picture of just how powerful Crusaders/Berserkers are relative to the other fighter classes. Even if exaggerated by rumors and stories, personal experience is now revealing to me just how huge a gap there is between "the most defensive tank in the game" and other tanks.</p>

<p>dont see why haveing pop at berk for when pally better mt then Berk , if Berserker role is to OT & dps then he loses out to sk that useing shield over Berserker having to dw in dps stance lose not only to sk on dps we lost out on are def to </p><p>as for population fighter is wrong just how many guard befor got there update reroll as Berserker ?</p><p>same for pally beting 2k them now sk to </p><p>All this guard QQ going on got ask your self when roll your toon was it for mting hard name ie raid alway been this way </p><p>you cant say berserker dps that much better then guard can you ,  just not much in it & then it only when come to aoe mobs </p><p>then we not best aoe class sk pally are </p><p>only fix needed is Crusader runing around out dps both tank useing shield & weapon yet  guard or zerk need be in dps stance dw it not close to same as sk </p><p>if they get around to remaking sk stance that would go long way in fixing population sk around now </p><p>you guys not asking for any class to be fix your asking for full out right nerf to all but own class </p><p>you rolled class that was made to be best raid tank , it went down hill because we all lost are class armour now all tank are around same mit hp it all wrong you need be asking sony about [Removed for Content] poor tank armour around now days  </p><p>that my rant over  back to rift <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

<p>oh and why did not get your guard on quest become zerk if class op say is it noobs <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p><p>then he go off level up pally lol right with you now .... have fun  </p>

lolwut ?

<p><cite>Trueblade@Splitpaw wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>oh and why did not get your guard on quest become zerk if class op say is it noobs <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></p></blockquote><p>A lot of people have noob, that's one of the reasons guardian is the least played class in the game. Personally I betrayed to a zerker and then gave up entirely and rolled a shadowknight.</p>

<p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>there's no downside to being an aoe type tank. your single target numbers still hold up to or exceed single target type tanks on single target encounters.</blockquote><p>This is not trueGuardians parse higher single target dps then zerkersGuardians combat arts are HIGHER damage.</p><p>As many have said before this thread is pointless. They show nothing of class balance.</p>

<p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>there's no downside to being an aoe type tank. your single target numbers still hold up to or exceed single target type tanks on single target encounters.</blockquote><p>This is not trueGuardians parse higher single target dps then zerkersGuardians combat arts are HIGHER damage.</p><p>As many have said before this thread is pointless. They show nothing of class balance.</p></blockquote><p>And half of guardian's abilities are temp buffs, aggro tools, and defensive abilities.</p><p>As many have said before your posts are pointless. They show nothing of even a sliver of intelligence.</p>

<p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>there's no downside to being an aoe type tank. your single target numbers still hold up to or exceed single target type tanks on single target encounters.</blockquote><p>This is not trueGuardians parse higher single target dps then zerkersGuardians combat arts are HIGHER damage.</p><p>As many have said before this thread is pointless. They show nothing of class balance.</p></blockquote><p>i'm a zerk looking to switch to guard, and i'm gonna tell you, that guard ca's don't do more damage than zerk ca's.  they just don't.  numbers don't lie.  they just don't.  guard can easily equal zerk on single target tho.  but, if you put 2 eq maniacs on eq, 1 zerk and 1 guard, the zerk would parse higher by smidge single target.</p>

<p>there's 1 million people that play the swashbuckler class.  They need a nerf...  take out at least half of their dps...  I'd tell you to see links below, but I decided not to post them.  It's good enough to tell you that I SAW THEM and therefore it must be true.</p><p>Anyone having fun with their class shouldn't be allowed to play.  If this game isn't work, your resignation from the game is required immediately.</p>

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>there's no downside to being an aoe type tank. your single target numbers still hold up to or exceed single target type tanks on single target encounters.</blockquote><p>This is not trueGuardians parse higher single target dps then zerkersGuardians combat arts are HIGHER damage.</p><p>As many have said before this thread is pointless. They show nothing of class balance.</p></blockquote><p>And half of guardian's abilities are temp buffs, aggro tools, and defensive abilities.</p><p>As many have said before your posts are pointless. They show nothing of even a sliver of intelligence.</p></blockquote><p>Do you honestly think you make any sense with your ramblings? Guardians share most of thier buffs with zerkers. Thier combat arts DO in fact have a higher max hit. The post i quoted isnt even remotely correct. I honestly didnt expect a half wit as yourself to understand an intelligent conversation in the first place.</p>

<p>What makes me so happy is to see that in this thread about fighter balance, most people either don't know enough about brawlers to make a comment, or just seem to not consider brawlers tanks at all. People get heated when defending Guardians, but it almost seems like Monks and Bruisers have been written off entirely, and don't even warrant a response. Ahh, feel the love.</p>

<p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>there's no downside to being an aoe type tank. your single target numbers still hold up to or exceed single target type tanks on single target encounters.</blockquote><p>This is not trueGuardians parse higher single target dps then zerkersGuardians combat arts are HIGHER damage.</p><p>As many have said before this thread is pointless. They show nothing of class balance.</p></blockquote><p>And half of guardian's abilities are temp buffs, aggro tools, and defensive abilities.</p><p>As many have said before your posts are pointless. They show nothing of even a sliver of intelligence.</p></blockquote><p>Do you honestly think you make any sense with your ramblings? Guardians share most of thier buffs with zerkers. Thier combat arts DO in fact have a higher max hit. The post i quoted isnt even remotely correct. I honestly didnt expect a half wit as yourself to understand an intelligent conversation in the first place.</p></blockquote><p>i'm zerk atm, and i'm looking at guard masters trying to figure out how much money i need to switch over.  i don't see why guard spells would display wrong for me, and they are trended to lower damage than my current zerk spells.  i think decimate was the only guard spell that caught my eye for just being better.</p>

<p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>there's no downside to being an aoe type tank. your single target numbers still hold up to or exceed single target type tanks on single target encounters.</blockquote><p>This is not trueGuardians parse higher single target dps then zerkersGuardians combat arts are HIGHER damage.</p><p>As many have said before this thread is pointless. They show nothing of class balance.</p></blockquote><p>And half of guardian's abilities are temp buffs, aggro tools, and defensive abilities.</p><p>As many have said before your posts are pointless. They show nothing of even a sliver of intelligence.</p></blockquote><p>Do you honestly think you make any sense with your ramblings? Guardians share most of thier buffs with zerkers. Thier combat arts DO in fact have a higher max hit. The post i quoted isnt even remotely correct. I honestly didnt expect a half wit as yourself to understand an intelligent conversation in the first place.</p></blockquote><p>Zerkers have 14 abilities that do no damage or don't increase personal dps, guardians have 22.</p><p>13 if you want to count their group wide strength buff as something that increases personal damage (I did not).</p><p>Nice fail there champ.</p>

<p><cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What makes me so happy is to see that in this thread about fighter balance, most people either don't know enough about brawlers to make a comment, or just seem to not consider brawlers tanks at all. People get heated when defending Guardians, but it almost seems like Monks and Bruisers have been written off entirely, and don't even warrant a response. Ahh, feel the love.</p></blockquote><p>It is hard enough to try and achieve this so called balance with just four plate tanks. Throwing in another two fighters such as brawlers into that mix has made it all the more tougher. This has been the bane for fighters in eq2 cause six of them are to many.</p><p>One thing that comes to mind for many players are that plate tanks can tank most content in offensive stance where a brawler must use defensive stance just to be as successful as the plates.</p><p>Brawlers sacrifice to much just to be tanks where plates for the most part don't have a down side. Well unless your are a guardian. </p>

<p><cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What makes me so happy is to see that in this thread about fighter balance, most people either don't know enough about brawlers to make a comment, or just seem to not consider brawlers tanks at all. People get heated when defending Guardians, but it almost seems like Monks and Bruisers have been written off entirely, and don't even warrant a response. Ahh, feel the love.</p></blockquote><p>When Brawlers hit the bottom of the list then your can complain about being at the bottom. If your class has issues then don't let me stand in your way of trying to get it fixed.</p><p>The difference here is that I haven't given up and have weathered the idiot storms... Everybody here knows the posted numbers are not 100% accurate but that they are representative of what is present in the game. Those that argue that the numbers are not accurate are actually SK's... .funny how you can look people up on EQ2Players and get real information.</p>

<p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>Tenka@Nagafen wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>there's no downside to being an aoe type tank. your single target numbers still hold up to or exceed single target type tanks on single target encounters.</blockquote><p>This is not trueGuardians parse higher single target dps then zerkersGuardians combat arts are HIGHER damage.</p><p>As many have said before this thread is pointless. They show nothing of class balance.</p></blockquote><p>And half of guardian's abilities are temp buffs, aggro tools, and defensive abilities.</p><p>As many have said before your posts are pointless. They show nothing of even a sliver of intelligence.</p></blockquote><p>Do you honestly think you make any sense with your ramblings? Guardians share most of thier buffs with zerkers. Thier combat arts DO in fact have a higher max hit. The post i quoted isnt even remotely correct. I honestly didnt expect a half wit as yourself to understand an intelligent conversation in the first place.</p></blockquote><p>Zerkers have 14 abilities that do no damage or don't increase personal dps, guardians have 22.</p><p>13 if you want to count their group wide strength buff as something that increases personal damage (I did not).</p><p>Nice fail there champ.</p></blockquote><p>Chump, your post would make sense if it referred to my post. Again Guardian abilities HIT HARDER. SO they have a higher ability mod cap and a slew of several other reasons why mechanically they have a higher single target dps then zerkers.</p><p>Try again special ed.</p>

no dude. they don't hit harder. unless 2 or more ppl come in here and tell me that a zerk inspecting guardian masters isn't getting accurate numbers, then just no. i checked the broker just now. and no. it's kind of as moot point tho. warriors don't parse with ca's. that's el oh el. auto-atk > procs > couple ca's > more procs > the rest of your ca's

p.s. what separates a zerk from a guard mechanically as far as dps ? they both use essentially the exact same gear/weapons. so afaik it's just auto atk and procs versus auto atk and procs, and there is no aa to make a guard better at auto atks than a zerk. afaik.

<p><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Chump, your post would make sense if it referred to my post. Again Guardian abilities HIT HARDER. SO they have a higher ability mod cap <span style="text-decoration: underline;"><strong>and a slew of several other reasons</strong></span> why mechanically they have a higher single target dps then zerkers.<p>Try again special ed.</p></blockquote><p>Normally I would lol at such stupidity, but this is just /facepalm. Just stop posting before you further embarrass yourself kiddo.</p>

<p>One more level 90 Guardian on the shelf.</p><p>On to my Ranger.</p>

<p>Berserkers will do a bit more DPS single target, on average, than a Guardian and will do large amounts more DPS on multiple targets over a Guardian due to their 100% AoE autoattack.</p><p>Gungo coming here and saying that Guardian CA's hit harder and using that as a fact to define that Guardians have higher single target DPS is wrong. Do Guardian CA's hit harder? No clue and it really means nothing. Cast time, refresh time, to hit modifier and hit amount all have to be factored in.</p><p>Parses have proven that Berserkers have a slight advantage over Guardians in single target DPS. That is based on provided evidence, not my own warped view of what should define DPS.</p>

<p><cite>Wasuna wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p><cite>The_Cheeseman wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>What makes me so happy is to see that in this thread about fighter balance, most people either don't know enough about brawlers to make a comment, or just seem to not consider brawlers tanks at all. People get heated when defending Guardians, but it almost seems like Monks and Bruisers have been written off entirely, and don't even warrant a response. Ahh, feel the love.</p></blockquote><p>When Brawlers hit the bottom of the list then your can complain about being at the bottom. If your class has issues then don't let me stand in your way of trying to get it fixed.</p><p>The difference here is that I haven't given up and have weathered the idiot storms... Everybody here knows the posted numbers are not 100% accurate but that they are representative of what is present in the game. Those that argue that the numbers are not accurate are actually SK's... .funny how you can look people up on EQ2Players and get real information.</p></blockquote><p>Actually when it comes to tanking both brawlers ARE at the bottom of the list.  Who in their right mind is going to take a monk or bruiser over a guardian or any of the other 3 tanks?</p><p>And what's more, brawlers used to be top dps fighter class, given their less than stellar tanking role, which made for some kind of balance, but that's been long gone as well.  Zerkers and SKs do waayyy more damage than brawlers.</p><p>So yes, Guards have their place at the bottom of the list, but you're there along with us brawlers.</p>

<p><cite>Oneira wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>Actually when it comes to tanking both brawlers ARE at the bottom of the list.  Who in their right mind is going to take a monk or bruiser over a guardian or any of the other 3 tanks?</p><p>And what's more, brawlers used to be top dps fighter class, given their less than stellar tanking role, which made for some kind of balance, but that's been long gone as well.  Zerkers and SKs do waayyy more damage than brawlers.</p><p>So yes, Guards have their place at the bottom of the list, but you're there along with us brawlers.</p></blockquote><p>I agree. While brawlers have made leaps and bounds as far as tanking goes they are still at the bottom. I do also agree that years ago brawler dps was greater than the sk or zerkers dps. It was a so called trade off. Since the brawler cannot survive as well they in turn did more damage.</p><p>Brawler defensive stances outshine their offensive stance is a big portion of the problem. I had my bruiser tanking the other night and dps increase going fully offensive was very minor. Ten percent at the highest. However when I remained fully defensive in gear and stance my damage was almost as good as my offense but my survival was hands and fists higher.</p><p>Defensively brawlers have made up some good ground its just their offensive has lacked attention where fighters such as the sk and zerker has seen increases in both departments in the last two expansions.</p>