MIt pally questions, why if were 2nd tank are we soo low?

[Lotusd]

So I max out at about 5200 = 80% mit (and can get there in group easy with potion) and the MT in group Guard max's around 7500 = 80% what do beserkers max out at and monks and brawelers?And Why if all tanks are supposed to be able to tank the same are Guards able to max at soo much higher then pally's, Also wonder if where ever going to get mit/avd buffs like guards or are Guards the end all tank in game?Just a few questions lolCheersLotus<div></div>

[Rochir]

<blockquote><hr>Lotusd wrote:So I max out at about 5200 = 80% mit (and can get there in group easy with potion) and the MT in group Guard max's around 7500 = 80% what do beserkers max out at and monks and brawelers?And Why if all tanks are supposed to be able to tank the same are Guards able to max at soo much higher then pally's, Also wonder if where ever going to get mit/avd buffs like guards or are Guards the end all tank in game?Just a few questions lolCheersLotus<div></div><hr></blockquote>We have heals and wards, gaurdians do not. Supposedly that makes us equal. Many would disagree. I used my heals and wards when tanking Darathar to supplement my healers. It seemed to work well.

[ArivenGemini]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<blockquote><hr>Lotusd wrote:So I max out at about 5200 = 80% mit (and can get there in group easy with potion) and the MT in group Guard max's around 7500 = 80% what do beserkers max out at and monks and brawelers?And Why if all tanks are supposed to be able to tank the same are Guards able to max at soo much higher then pally's, Also wonder if where ever going to get mit/avd buffs like guards or are Guards the end all tank in game?Just a few questions lolCheersLotus<div></div><hr></blockquote>We have heals and wards, gaurdians do not. Supposedly that makes us equal. Many would disagree. I used my heals and wards when tanking Darathar to supplement my healers. It seemed to work well.<hr></blockquote>Yup, the pally I normally group with had to make macros to make sure that teh trigger happy scouts in our group wouldn't evac if it looked bad since if he has power left he can tell if he can pull it off better than the scouts can... and he usually does..We were duoing heroics a couple leves above him the other day, with my swash as dps and only his heals and ward...  was working great...  I dont see how we could have done it if he weren't 1) a pally and 2) a great tank</span></div>

[Wabit]

<div></div><p>that difference seems large...  i have ~800 HP on our guild paly with about equilivant gear...  he /respeced and took the same race choices as me (everything into sta)...</p><p>2 sta hex dolls = 26 sta</p><p>gaige's = 47 sta</p><p>HP potion = 333HP</p><p>soup = 128 HP</p><p>he also had +60 standing mit from the idol compared to the HP i get from the bow...  also if you are trying to compare a highelf paly to an ogre guard there is a bigger inheriant HP race gain...  his resists also blow mine out of the water...</p><p>now compared to our other paly who did a pure int for traits i have alot more HP, but my int is at 12 (base for barb)...</p>

[Wannabepaladin]

<div></div><p>In a short answer, yes, guardians are the ultimate tank in EQ, and that is unlikely to ever change. If paladins could tank as well as guardians, AND have heals, why would the guardians exist? Quite frankly we are a lot closer to guardian tanking abilities now in EQ2 than paladins were for years in EQ.</p><p> </p><p>I see this coming out two ways:</p><p> </p><p>1) Paladins will be able to tank anything up to a major raid mob boss, where a guardian may be required. Especially a guardian with a paladin's mitigation buff on him.</p><p> </p><p>2) Each tank class gets different resists raised with their defensive stance. Guardians are heat/cold, paladins are divine/magic, brawlers are poison/disease. I foresee boss mobs specifically designed to be optimally tanked by each of the tanking classes.</p>

[Lotusd]

lol, sry I was asking about Mit/avd not hpwas wondering why they have such a high cap and what is the cap on zerkersThanks for the reply though <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[FlintAH]

Mit cap is the same for everyone.  80% of the mobs dmg you are fighting.<div></div>

[Supernova17]

<span><blockquote><hr>Wannabepaladin wrote:<div></div> <p>2) Each tank class gets different resists raised with their defensive stance. Guardians are heat/cold, paladins are divine/magic, brawlers are poison/disease. I foresee boss mobs specifically designed to be optimally tanked by each of the tanking classes.</p><hr></blockquote>Guardians: HeatBerserkers: ColdPaladins: Divine / MagicShadow Knight: DiseaseMonk: MentalBrusier: PosionAlso, I am interested in knowing how you can get yourself up to 5200 Mitigation as a Paladin by yourself.</span><div></div>

[MeridianR]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Supernova17 wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Wannabepaladin wrote:<div></div> <p>2) Each tank class gets different resists raised with their defensive stance. Guardians are heat/cold, paladins are divine/magic, brawlers are poison/disease. I foresee boss mobs specifically designed to be optimally tanked by each of the tanking classes.</p><hr></blockquote>Guardians: HeatBerserkers: ColdPaladins: Divine / MagicShadow Knight: DiseaseMonk: MentalBrusier: PosionAlso, I am interested in knowing how you can get yourself up to 5200 Mitigation as a Paladin by yourself.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah 5200 mitigation is insane, and can't be possible just by yourself.  Raid buffed, I can see.....or if you happened to have a Fury with Porcupine on you at the time, but self buffed to 5.2k mitigation I believe is impossible.</span></div>

[Wabit]

<div></div><div>5200 mit, wow...  fully fabled with mit on every piece of gear, ~4300 solo is about the cap, rough numbers in my head...  (240) metalic hues potion...  conj (259), templar (564), crusader gift (400ish)???...  so i guess it could be done...</div>

[Lotusd]

sry for the confusion, yes I get to about 5200 in a group, ~4200 self buffs (w/potion),  and MH potion., and no not with porcupine, another crusader in group adds alomst 400 with pledge then other buffs get  to around 5200.now as far as all mit cap the same that is incorrect, hence the initial question lolthe guardian can cap mit at abotu 7500 while ours caps at about 5200, wonder why.If a DEV reads thsi please give response <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Thanks againLotus<div></div>

[Anzak]

The basic formula is level * Percent  Now this is not entirely true but from the testing I have done it is pretty close assuming you are using the right teir of gear.  So assuming this the highest level raid mob is level 68 * 80% mit cap and you have 5440 which we know is not true because at 68 the mob is 8 levels higher and ignores some part of that but we don't know how much.  Now to reach the 80% you are seeing 60 x 80 = 4800ish.  So basically any plate tank or anyone for that matter that can get to 4800 or there abouts will see 80% as their mitigation value because that is the cap for level 60 which is what the UI shows.  But since Mitigation is based on the level of the mob then we know that this is not really 80% since it is only vs level 60 mobs.  Your 5200 is capped around level 65.Now my question is how is the guard getting 7500?  Unless his gear is a lot better than yours (which is not likely because just to get 5200 you need some pretty good gear I only get to about 4200 fully raid buffed though I don't have full fabled or even close to that yet)  Add in their self buffs and you are only looking at 1K max for the total of their temp buffs.  So 6200 would be about the max I could see them hitting and only temp.  I would rather look at their standing mit which would be be pretty close to your own.<div></div>

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Lotusd wrote:the guardian can cap mit at abotu 7500 while ours caps at about 5200, wonder why.<div></div><hr></blockquote>we cap mit at the same number...  my normal MT group is right about 5k mit with potion (3 healers, dirge, conj)...  aff heros armor (580), archane ageis (120ish), is 5700...  have the fury cast porc (1800ish??) you're at 7500...  thats as a guard without useing my short term mit buffs...  so paly can get the same...

[Anzak]

<span><blockquote><hr>Wabit wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Lotusd wrote:the guardian can cap mit at abotu 7500 while ours caps at about 5200, wonder why.<div></div><hr></blockquote>we cap mit at the same number...  my normal MT group is right about 5k mit with potion (3 healers, dirge, conj)...  aff heros armor (580), archane ageis (120ish), is 5700...  have the fury cast porc (1800ish??) you're at 7500...  thats as a guard without useing my short term mit buffs...  so paly can get the same...<hr></blockquote>Ah ok.  But that is not what is considered Standing Mitigation.  Standing Mit would be with nothing but long term buffs.  So all the toggle buffs and a mit potion everything else is short term stuff and heroes armor can't be depended on getting.</span><div></div>

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Anzak wrote:<span>Ah ok.  But that is not what is considered Standing Mitigation.  Standing Mit would be with nothing but long term buffs.  So all the toggle buffs and a mit potion everything else is short term stuff and heroes armor can't be depended on getting.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>guards have no mit buff over 30 secs...  our mit comes from our gear and whatever racial trait mit choices we have...

[Anzak]

<span><blockquote><hr>Wabit wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Anzak wrote:<span>Ah ok.  But that is not what is considered Standing Mitigation.  Standing Mit would be with nothing but long term buffs.  So all the toggle buffs and a mit potion everything else is short term stuff and heroes armor can't be depended on getting.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>guards have no mit buff over 30 secs...  our mit comes from our gear and whatever racial trait mit choices we have...<hr></blockquote>Right but what I'm pointing out is that with Proc and Heroes armor (which a Pally can get as well) we would have the same mit and these are short term buffs as well so can't really be figured into a persons standing mit.In Equal gear with the same race and same choices our standing Mit should be indentical.</span><div></div>

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Anzak wrote:<span>Right but what I'm pointing out is that with Proc and Heroes armor (which a Pally can get as well) we would have the same mit and these are short term buffs as well so can't really be figured into a persons standing mit.In Equal gear with the same race and same choices our standing Mit should be indentical.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>correct, or at least pretty close, you can get +60 from your ranged slot...  7500 standing mit isn't something anyone is going to get...  i just pointed out how a guard gets 7500...  we can also stack our 30 sec buffs and have this but then we are right back down to normal 30 secs later...  so if you are seeing 7500 mit on a guard its very short term...

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Wabit wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Anzak wrote:<span>Ah ok.  But that is not what is considered Standing Mitigation.  Standing Mit would be with nothing but long term buffs.  So all the toggle buffs and a mit potion everything else is short term stuff and heroes armor can't be depended on getting.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>guards have no mit buff over 30 secs...  our mit comes from our gear and whatever racial trait mit choices we have...<hr></blockquote>Yes other then there temp buff, a Paladin and Guardian will have whatever Mitigation there gear provides....(plus any racial traits)...Also remember a lot of times a Crusader is in the MT group, so with there Armament line on the Guardian there is a much bigger difference in mitigation between the 2.  Right now my Defensive Stance mitigation is 3799....but I have to upgrade a couple pieces to higher end fabled.</span><div></div>

[Anzak]

<span><blockquote><hr>MeridianR wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Wabit wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Anzak wrote:<span>Ah ok.  But that is not what is considered Standing Mitigation.  Standing Mit would be with nothing but long term buffs.  So all the toggle buffs and a mit potion everything else is short term stuff and heroes armor can't be depended on getting.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>guards have no mit buff over 30 secs...  our mit comes from our gear and whatever racial trait mit choices we have...<hr></blockquote>Yes other then there temp buff, a Paladin and Guardian will have whatever Mitigation there gear provides....(plus any racial traits)...Also remember a lot of times a Crusader is in the MT group, so with there Armament line on the Guardian there is a much bigger difference in mitigation between the 2.  Right now my Defensive Stance mitigation is 3799....but I have to upgrade a couple pieces to higher end fabled.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I think I was 4119 last night and we didn't have a Conj in the group.  I almost never put my mit buff on the guard if he is MT.  Because every time I have he goes down and I try to pick it up but with 500 less mit you get the idea.  While we have not had a whole lot of saves where the MT went down and we were able to pick it up and pull it off.  There have been a few.  Every single time it was because I didn't have the Mit buff up and was able to take the hits and use my heals and wards to keep myself up an extra few seconds while the healers retargeted.</span><div></div>

[MeridianR]

Not sure what mine is in the MT group, but I know that unless our Guardian's Temp buff is up mine is almost the same.<div></div>

[Anzak]

Ah Self buffed.  I'm 3315 but then again I only have 2 fabled armor.  Immovable Barbute and Gem Encrusted Gauntlets.<div></div>

[MeridianR]

Yeah self buffed I am at 3799 in defensive stance (without a potion)...add some buffs and it goes much higher <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Rasplori]

Because of our wards/heals, we tank single mobs really well (triple ups) - since there's one mob, our ward and heals wont get interruptted much at all.  If we ward 910 damage (adept 3 ward) and 700ish per heal, this makes up for our lower mitigation.  On a raid mob this is harder because less mitigation usually means we get killed much faster, regardless of our healing ability.  But if there's enough healers to keep us alive from a mob's autoattack, then against AOEs we survive much better than other tanks, typically. So if the autoattack is insane, perhaps tanking isnt for us on an epic - but if the AOE is the killer, we're usually a great choice to tank if we're outfitted well.<div></div>

[Anzak]

Yeah that frog in court hits for 3-5k auto-attack our ward and heal are near useless there.  To be honest though since I have been tanking raid mobs I don't even think about group or solo mobs anymore.  I mean when you go from getting hit with 3-5K auto-attacks to 100-200 auto-attack you don't worry too much about the hits.  I almost never heal or ward in a group setting as I leave that to the healer since I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be taking enough damage that they are going to be really strained.<div></div>

[Sirlutt]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<blockquote><hr>Lotusd wrote:So I max out at about 5200 = 80% mit (and can get there in group easy with potion) and the MT in group Guard max's around 7500 = 80% what do beserkers max out at and monks and brawelers?And Why if all tanks are supposed to be able to tank the same are Guards able to max at soo much higher then pally's, Also wonder if where ever going to get mit/avd buffs like guards or are Guards the end all tank in game?Just a few questions lolCheersLotus<div></div><hr></blockquote>We have heals and wards, gaurdians do not. Supposedly that makes us equal. Many would disagree. I used my heals and wards when tanking Darathar to supplement my healers. It seemed to work well.<hr></blockquote>I would say it more than makes up for it.. Amends, wards, heals.. def > anything a guardian does.  and I play both a guard and pally.. (and a zerker monk and bruiser)</span></div>

[WulfricGreyBeard]

Honestly I believe Guardians are the best all around tank. Yeah we can mitigate about equally but paladins I believe are better secondary tanks and secondary healers. Not saying we can not make good tanks just we are second. Look at our spells compared to a guardian. Paladins have buff spells like ancient pledge and offering of armanent and healing spells. Guards get aggro management. To me that is much more important. Guards have better spells to keep the mobs on the tank. Things like hold the line and area effect tuants which Pallys do not get. HP and mitigation may be similar but Guards are better at measuring aggression. Pally spells give better support.<div></div>

[MeridianR]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Sirlutt wrote:<div><span><blockquote><hr>Rochir wrote:<blockquote><hr>Lotusd wrote:So I max out at about 5200 = 80% mit (and can get there in group easy with potion) and the MT in group Guard max's around 7500 = 80% what do beserkers max out at and monks and brawelers?And Why if all tanks are supposed to be able to tank the same are Guards able to max at soo much higher then pally's, Also wonder if where ever going to get mit/avd buffs like guards or are Guards the end all tank in game?Just a few questions lolCheersLotus<div></div><hr></blockquote>We have heals and wards, gaurdians do not. Supposedly that makes us equal. Many would disagree. I used my heals and wards when tanking Darathar to supplement my healers. It seemed to work well.<hr></blockquote>I would say it more than makes up for it.. Amends, wards, heals.. def > anything a guardian does.  and I play both a guard and pally.. (and a zerker monk and bruiser)</span></div><hr></blockquote>I just want to make my point clear to everyone: (All things being equal...equipment, spell level, group, etc)Group wise:Paladin > GuardianRaid wise:Guardian > PaladinI guess I can live with this, since we make decent raid MT's, but that is where I am coming from when I post (from a raiding standpoint)...would I switch them around...of course, since it's easier to control the settings in a group rather then a raid...Finally - I believe Guardian's are better group tanks, then Paladin's are raid tanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></div>

[Wabit]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>WulfricGreyBeard wrote:Honestly I believe Guardians are the best all around tank. Yeah we can mitigate about equally but paladins I believe are better secondary tanks and secondary healers. Not saying we can not make good tanks just we are second. Look at our spells compared to a guardian. Paladins have buff spells like ancient pledge and offering of armanent and healing spells. Guards get aggro management. To me that is much more important. Guards have better spells to keep the mobs on the tank. Things like hold the line and area effect tuants which Pallys do not get. HP and mitigation may be similar but Guards are better at measuring aggression. Pally spells give better support.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p>HtL blows...  i'll not get into it here i have a post on it in guard forums... </p><p>my guild has used both for everything and we've had the same sucess...  paly, guard, zerker all pretty interchangeable as a tank tbh...</p><p>paly gets armor grant, guards get intervene's (way too many)...  i personaly don't like 2 tanks in MT group (it waists a spot for a coercer/conj)...</p><p>for somethings i prefer a paly to tank...  like PPR trash mobs, the agro is much better for the paly, and things die quicker...  heck all of PPR i prefer our paly to tank (he has a ring, i don't)...</p>

[Anzak]

I don't know for agro control I think Pallies have it better if you think about it.Amends - Put it in a warlock for AE stuff.Sigil - If they every fix it so it does not break amends this is great for holding agro on hard pullsConsecrate - My personal fav.  Use this for AE agro control trust me it works wonders.  I used this on the 5 harpies in court and the monks were suppose to off tank them well at the end of the fight every single monk was like I could not get them off you.  So now we don't bother with add tanks on them since they don't hit hard enough to hurt the MT that much.Just these 3 things and you can see agro control is our strong point.Oh and to trump all for a guard put amends on the guard <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  90% of the time I have amends on the other tank in the MT group when I'm tanking.  There are some cases where he will off tank so I have to switch it but more often than not it is on the other tank and life is good.<div></div>

[blueduckie]

<div></div>Just skimmed over most of this thread after first few posts getting gest of topic. However guardian at 7200 is with both its short duration buffs up and alot more. When our paladin tanks we have a guardian in the group who can use 1 of its group mit buffs on the paladin. We cant perma keep up both buffs. If we split them both up it is ok. Our paladin tanks np though. The hardest part is engage so if we use our paladin on a mob like Sunchild or Black Queen we just have them as 2nd tank. Our paladin has more base mit than our guardians not from just gear but from beingable to use symbol. That is a perma advantage vs everything. Guardians have a bit of a advantage vs melee yes. Paladins have a bit of an advantage vs spell dmg from mobs. With how well mobs are debuffed the difference between most is not very noticable IMHO.