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View Full Version : Multi-encounter hate generation?


Mattim
09-14-2005, 08:09 AM
Previous to todays patch holding hate on multiple encounters was reasonable. Better in some situations and worse in others, but for the most part if you stayed on your toes it was veyr possible to lock hate.Played several hours today in CT and had alot of issues holding hate when more than one encounter was involved. With a single encounter things were ok, I could utilize single/group taunts and bash to hold hate easily, combined with ward/heal agro it was locked on me. When anymore than one encounter was with the group that became much more difficult.Strategies for holding hate on multiple encounters? Anyone have ideas? Personally I dropped redemption on the person who was doing most of the hate, like always. When adds might come I'd have to try and switch and drop taunts to pull agro, my experience was I'd have to *focus* on doing that a couple rounds to pull hate from a healer who has healed themselves.Maybe it's healers need to learn to back off. Seems shaman wards pull tons of agro now, and by inheritance ours should do.. trying to pre-ward myself, etc. Maybe someone with beta experience has some ideas?

Seomon
09-14-2005, 08:19 AM
I don't have beta experience, or grouped up with more than a fellow guildie, but maybe try and drop your group buffs and reapply them would help. Just a suggestion though, so if it doesn't work, don't flame me please <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Blambil
09-14-2005, 09:25 PM
<DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I noticed that same thing last night numerous times. Single target and single group aggro is working as it should be. Multi-group aggro is broken, at least for now... it's a several fold problem..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Healers ger aggro from Reactives/Wards - This makes "fringe aggro mobs" pick away from you a LOT faster. The ones you used to be able to keep pinned to you with an AOE nuke or selecting the group and throwing a a group taunt on, now are unimpressed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Casters are doing more damage. I've never seen the kind of Mage dmg output I saw last night. We had a 44 in our group doing, routinely 1300-1500 per cast. Even with the added aggro, I was cheering with them. That's how mages are supposed to nuke. I want to be complete clear, I'm 100% in favor of the damage they are doing now. I LOVE it... But now they get to re-learn aggro management. (This reminds me of some of the conversations with Ice Comet / Manaburn / etc went into EQ1)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Those two things together tipped the balance from being able to keep multiple targets happy, to not. The group I was with wiped multiple times last night to GREENS because we'd get jumped by 3 groups of 8-10 at a time (DFC), and I was unable to keep them all off. Whether or not that's in the design, I don't know. For this encounter, there's no way I'm aware of to avoid the fights.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR>Based on my fights last night (1 hr of "where did my spells go, what do they do" and 5 hours of almost non-stop fighting) I have two thoughts:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. we're in dire need of a stronger PBAOE method of taunting.  I tried nuking, I tried healing, I tried everything I could. Multi-group encounters I can't keep aggro any more.</DIV> <DIV>2. greens still hit too hard. I was getting hit harder by green triple ups than yellow double ups. (I know apples and oranges... blah blah)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Kale
09-14-2005, 09:35 PM
One thing to consider: Since healers now accrue more hate than before, it might be wise to put your Redemption on them intead of the biggest damage dealer.

Coho1
09-14-2005, 09:38 PM
Redemption is a Master II choice at lvl 14.:smileywink:

Mattim
09-14-2005, 10:27 PM
<blockquote><hr>Kalera wrote: One thing to consider: Since healers now accrue more hate than before, it might be wise to put your Redemption on them intead of the biggest damage dealer. <hr></blockquote>Yeah, was re-thinking agro syphoning to do something exactly like this. Also, I'm thinking stressing that healers back off on healing early in the fight. Paladins now are even more durable than before is my impression.Healer hate generation across the board seems to be pretty bad for cross-encounters. Like shamans regenerative wards on group buffs are tiny taunts that fire off fairly often challenging our taunting abilities.The one instance it was 'easier' last night was when group heal actually healed. Once people were getting group healed I could use it as an AE taunt and actually starting pulling better hate across encounters.

Wallzak
09-14-2005, 10:45 PM
<DIV>Couple of things:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  I've been playing a low level mage on test prior to the launch of DOF.  I have the adept I pet (the spider), and was constantly getting agro... even after holding back several seconds.  This was fine except in multi-mob encounters and my pet finally dies... he dies... I died... I know there is an offensive/defensive stance the pet gets and if I remember correctly the defensive one generates hate... might want to talk to the conj about that :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  I was tanking last night in a group of pure 50's... conj included... I had a hard time maintaining agro, especially from the pet... but also the brawler and sk that was in the group.  Took a while to get used to things.  I found if I had a longer pull and was able to get my AOE taunt off before anyone else got a shot in it helped.  Add the 3-4 AOE's right after and that help... as long as there wasn't a fizzle, resist or lag. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can we cast redemption on a pet??</DIV>

SanJ
09-14-2005, 11:05 PM
<P>I had been pondering aggro management pre LU13/DOF.  Essentially, we had three primary routes for aggro management including </P> <P>1. taunts + shield bash  (which we still have and they look a little better IMHO)</P> <P>2. dps (two back to back heavy hitters like ROG and SS) not really an option now like before</P> <P>3. wards/buffs (I used them DURING combat before where I noticed a lot of Paladins cast only pre-pull, missing out on extra hate during battle.</P> <P>One of the main factors impacting priest class aggro is the change from reactives now healing as the priest and NOT the player under the reactive.  Pre LU13/DOF the logs would read Kalen heals Kalen for X amount of damage (over and over).  Now it reads Kalen's friend heals Kalen for x amount of damage.  All the hate from healing is now going to the caster, i.e. the priest.</P> <P>Possible remedies:</P> <P>A. Place the healer under the redemption line<BR>B. Use your ward while tanking to build more hate (ex. Kalen wards Kalen for X amount of damage <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>C. Toss in (high mana) the occasional group heal even if not merited<BR>D. Shield bash if you're forgetting as it still generates good hate (some forget this one)<BR>E. Use HOs -- as an example a fighter->mage duo HO ALWAYS ends with a fighter taunt or shield bash (pure hate!)<BR>F. Use the green background area attacks (Decree @ 50) to ensure you do "some" damage to all mobs.  The mana cost is much better then before even though it's still expensive, but I see this tool as a perfect "adds" solution for gaining initial/quick aggro from all the grouped adds<BR>G. Consider a Main Assist to allow the Paladin to toggle through mobs to manage aggro more appropriately<BR>H. Recast during battle Crusade (the mob sees a massive incoming buff to the party -- gets mad)<BR>I. And of course cycle through Clarion Call and Zealous Preaching as quickly as possible</P> <P>Other suggestions?</P> <P>Thanks,<BR>Kalen</P>

djhbeek
09-14-2005, 11:28 PM
good points.  i was having decent luck by basically chain-warding, and letting the healers fill in the gaps when my ward was down.  warding = more agro for me + less healing (less agro for them) ... the cost of this is power consumption, but it didnt seem too bad, and i could always back off later in the fight after i had established agro. i haven't really looked at this in detail, but our ward is a group ward, right?  so if i loose agro, do i gain hate as the ward ticks off on who-ever stole it, or is ward hate on initial cast only? <div></div>

SanJ
09-14-2005, 11:39 PM
<P>I was thinking the ward was caster+paladin only, (visuals always showed that), but now you have me wondering ... too bad I'm at work now as a group ward would own, but I'm pretty happy with the current ward even it turns out to be solo only.</P> <P>I spent WAY TOO much time last night in Starcrest Commune playing with hotkey bars, traits, etc.  and with the crashes on Najena, I basically had less then one hour of combat play.  As soon as I hit the DOF beach, I attacked the blue triple up grim reapers to see what I could do.  I was a bit ill-prepared searching around on my hotkeys for changed locations, but I managed to put the mob in the high orange before I had to shout and run (note to self: don't look over shoulder next time you slow down and die when you're already in the red <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>At any rate, I think with a little better prep work the blue ^^^ is probably doable with timed attacks, wards and heals.  I jumped on a solo yellow single up mob and honestly don't recall being hit the entire encounter which looked VERY promising.  I'm still not used to this LARGE group linked mob setup, nor ^^^ that are not epic, nor even single ups ^ that are actually just solo.  It's going to take a fair amount of time to figure out our best tactics and adapt to new gameplay, but I liked most of what I saw from a solo perspective and small group.  I need to test raiding soon and determine how we fair on that scene, but I'm already have ideas in mind on where we might fair and I think it will be good.  Perhaps we can start compiling a new thread "Post DOF Pallies on the Raid Scene" where we can share ideas on what we have to offer to a group through our skills and talents.</P> <P>Thanks,<BR>Kalen</P>

lisasdarr
09-15-2005, 12:01 AM
<span><blockquote><hr>Blambil wrote:<div> </div> <div>1. we're in dire need of a stronger PBAOE method of taunting.  I tried nuking, I tried healing, I tried everything I could. Multi-group encounters I can't keep aggro any more.</div> <div></div><hr></blockquote>I havn't any suggerstions, but there are already plenty of good ideas in this thread, but I do have a point to make. I think we are going to have to work very hard and struggle to hold agro from multiple encounters and I think this is intended. It makes a need for multiple tanks, greater consideration of adds and gives a greater use to the crowd control abilities of certain other classes. In other words rather than trying to find the easy way to hold the agro of multiple encounters try not to get the agro, use a second tank or allow cc classes to handle the second encounter for you.</span><div></div>

djhbeek
09-15-2005, 12:02 AM
<span><blockquote><hr>SanJun wrote:<p>I was thinking the ward was caster+paladin only, (visuals always showed that), but now you have me wondering ... too bad I'm at work now as a group ward would own, but I'm pretty happy with the current ward even it turns out to be solo only.</p><hr></blockquote>I seem to remember seeing Target: Group on that one, but it was late and now I'm at work ... I posted my experiences with an x2 somewhere today (a caster) ... i was pleasantly surprised.  He had an AE, and the group heal was _awesome_ to have.</span><div></div>

Kale
09-15-2005, 12:21 AM
<span><blockquote><hr>SanJun wrote: <p>Possible remedies:</p> <p>A. Place the healer under the redemption lineB. Use your ward while tanking to build more hate (ex. Kalen wards Kalen for X amount of damage <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />C. Toss in (high mana) the occasional group heal even if not meritedD. Shield bash if you're forgetting as it still generates good hate (some forget this one)E. Use HOs -- as an example a fighter->mage duo HO ALWAYS ends with a fighter taunt or shield bash (pure hate!)F. Use the green background area attacks (Decree @ 50) to ensure you do "some" damage to all mobs.  The mana cost is much better then before even though it's still expensive, but I see this tool as a perfect "adds" solution for gaining initial/quick aggro from all the grouped addsG. Consider a Main Assist to allow the Paladin to toggle through mobs to manage aggro more appropriatelyH. Recast during battle Crusade (the mob sees a massive incoming buff to the party -- gets mad)I. And of course cycle through Clarion Call and Zealous Preaching as quickly as possible</p> <p>Other suggestions?</p> <p>Thanks,Kalen</p> <hr></blockquote> Our ward has always been targetable - meaning we can cast it on anyone. 99% of the time we're tanking the mob is on us, so via the <i>target-through</i> mechanism the ward casts on us. However, I have often run into a situation where I started casting the ward during combat, someone else snagged aggro, and the ward ends up on them (A good thing, since they stole aggro). </span><font color="#ffff99"><span>A. Place the healer under the redemption line <font color="#ffffff">I think that's going to be part of the equation, no doubt. </font></span></font><font color="#ffff99"><span>B. Use your ward while tanking to build more hate (ex. Kalen wards Kalen for X amount of damage <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </span></font><span><font color="#ffff99">D. Shield bash if you're forgetting as it still generates good hate (some forget this one)</font><font color="#ffff99"> </font><font color="#ffff99">E. Use HOs -- as an example a fighter->mage duo HO ALWAYS ends with a fighter taunt or shield bash (pure hate!) <font color="#ffffff">Before these changes, that is how I always tanked group encounters. I often started by warding myself, then lead with a group taunt, followed with shield bash, AE strike, and more taunts/wards/self heals. When I Main Tanked for groups I rarely used CA's, instead spending my power on the high taunt generation stuff (or at least what I perceived to be taunt generation stuff). It surprises me that more Paladins didn't tank this way <i>before</i> the changes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> However, I think the biggest change is going to be here: <font color="#ffff99"> </font></font></font></span><span><font color="#ffff99">G. Consider a Main Assist to allow the Paladin to toggle through mobs to manage aggro more appropriately</font> My guild and I have done this on occasion, pre-changes, as a strategy for aggro-management. We only practice it in guild groups though, because it's a difficult concept for some people to get a handle on. But, that said, it works very well. If you have an off-tank, or a capable scout, make them the MA and have everyone targeting them (or preferably, using an /assist Macro). Let the Paladin do nothing but ward/taunt/bash and handle the aggro of every mob in the group, while the MA picks individual targets. I think, with the way things are now, you'll see this tactic used more, especially at the raid level. However: </span><span>There is <i>another method: </i>The <b>Assist Macro</b>. You don't need a MT/MA combo <i>if</i>the folks in your group make a habit of using a Macro hotkey for /assist. The reason Macro Assist is better than simply targeting the MT is because (a) you don't start attacking the second the tank does - you only attack when you hit the Macro and (b) if the MT switches targets, you do not - you stay on the mob that was targeted when you hit the Macro Assist key. Macro Assist also has the benefit that when the mob is dead, you stop fighting and put your weapon away, thereby not accidentally striking a nearby mezzed mob or non-aggro critter just because the MT targeted it. So, I think you can get away from using a MA if you get everyone to use an /assist Macro, and I think we might see that more often. </span> <span> Another thing for aggro management that me and my guildmates were doing pre-changes was, we enacted a rule for a <i>five second delay</i>. How I MT multiple mob encounters is - I ward myself first, then pull (or leap into the group of mobs to position their backs to my scouts). I group taunt, bash, etc. But the group gives me a whole five seconds before anyone else engages the mob. This gives me time to get taunts/bashes/AE spells chain-cast before anyone else hits the critters. It gives me a chance to establish some really good aggro before everyone else starts in. And this tactice has worked pretty well. I don't know how it will play out post-changes, but I am betting it will help a bit. </span><span> </span><div></div>

djhbeek
09-15-2005, 12:33 AM
i use the macro assist on raids so i can heal the MT (assuming he's targetted), but in some cases, the MA method is better.  The problem with the macro method is that IF you want everyone to change targets for some reason, you have to let everyone know to re-assist, whereas if they are all on the MA it happens automatically.  That being said, there are only certain encounters where you want your dps moving from target to target anyways, 95% of the time it's pick one and beat it till it's dead. <div></div>

Kale
09-15-2005, 12:39 AM
<span><blockquote><hr>djhbeek wrote:i use the macro assist on raids so i can heal the MT (assuming he's targetted), but in some cases, the MA method is better.  The problem with the macro method is that IF you want everyone to change targets for some reason, you have to let everyone know to re-assist, whereas if they are all on the MA it happens automatically.  That being said, there are only certain encounters where you want your dps moving from target to target anyways, 95% of the time it's pick one and beat it till it's dead. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Right. And the advantage of using an /assist key, especially in a group or raid, is this: It allows the MT to switch to a new target when the current target is about 5% - 10% health. So the MT gets a head-start on establishing aggro with the next target, while the rest of the group/raid finishes the current target. Target dies, MT has already had 5-10 seconds of lead time to gather hate on the next mob, everyone clicks their assist Macro and bang - it's a smooth transition from target to target. I think the /assist Macro is going to see more action with these changes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

PaladinThomm
09-15-2005, 01:37 AM
<DIV>One trick that I have used in the past was casting the group buff that adds STR and WIS.  This has recovered aggro surprisingly well in the past and affects all mobs in all encounters.  I often times cast it soley for this purpose (even when its already in effect) and sometimes immeditaley when 2 groups are aggroed to maintain aggro.</DIV>

Pathin Merrithay
09-15-2005, 08:38 AM
<P>I'll grant you that alot of people are still learning the ropes, but this far I've had almost no issues with maintaining agro. In the place of Theron's, I've just been tossing down a group heal and ward very quickly, and that's picked up fringe mobs close to 90% of the time. On the few occasions that hasn't worked for me, a quick switch+CA or direct taunt finishes it off.</P> <P>My training choice at 44 was the Master II group heal, which thus far seems to generate massive agro. Even aside from the obvious utility of such a powerful heal, you may also want to consider it for simple agro generation.</P>

sliderhouserules
09-15-2005, 10:11 AM
<div></div>Did they get rid of our Call of Glory line that steals aggro from all members of the group? I use(d) this all the time to great effect. I've had hella homework, haven't been able to log on for more than 20 minutes (not to mention Unrest was down all last night) <span>:smileysad:</span>. <div></div><p>Message Edited by sliderhouserules on <span class=date_text>09-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:12 AM</span>

Nurta
09-15-2005, 04:30 PM
<P>I wasn't having any issues until last night when I grouped with a defiler.  Every single pull (and I was doing the pull) when I came back in range of the party the mob would target him (no he wasn't casting, he would ward me before I pulled).</P> <P>Our group make up was:</P> <P>warden</P> <P>defiler</P> <P>me</P> <P>guardian</P> <P>conjurer</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was the Main tank as I was higher level and better stats.  I had ZERO issues holding agro on single target mobs.  However, group encounters I struggled and I was doing every CA that would increase hate I could.  Luckily they went down fast and it wasn't too bad, except when we got adds.  Two groups of those level 58 Sandfury mobs can hurt, YOWouch.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I pull with my long range nuke, taunt, and taunt again ( I do this while pulling back to the group) anything to build hate once back to camp I shield bash and ward and repeat over and over again with my taunts.  However, I do notice that taunts are resisted now and they are resisted ALLOT.  I'm sure this has something to do with not being able to hold agro as well.  I had amends on my defiler ( AND HE STILL GOT AGRO).  Sometimes the conjurers pet would take agro towards the end if I wasn't exclusively taunting, meaning if I wanted to hold agro completely I felt like I couldn't do ANY damage spells or CAs only taunts.  That doesn't seem right to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can take damage much much better than pre LU13 and at times I think I can hold agro but I don't think so.  My power consumption on all the taunting is terrible.  I mean just awful.  I guess when we get the /respec next week I will have to change some things since my power pool is poopoo now <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One positive, rescue ACTUALLY works and it works well.  *thumbs up there*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Majorminor
09-15-2005, 05:16 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sliderhouserules wrote:<BR> Did they get rid of our Call of Glory line that steals aggro from all members of the group? I use(d) this all the time to great effect.<BR><BR>I've had hella homework, haven't been able to log on for more than 20 minutes (not to mention Unrest was down all last night) <SPAN>:smileysad:</SPAN>.<BR> <P>Message Edited by sliderhouserules on <SPAN class=date_text>09-15-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:12 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Call of glory line is now a group weapon proc buff that does double damage to undead.  Pretty sure the aggro transfer part is gone. It is 1 con slot.</P> <P> </P> <P>One question though.  Theres a shield style, forget the name at the moment, that is grey to me now, and has been for a long time that interupts all targets in an encounter and adds hate.  Question is does this add hate on all mobs in encounter or just the one it hits.  Might be usfull if it hates em all, even though it's grey.</P>

Sedi
09-15-2005, 07:32 PM
<P>Nurta, you mentioned that the defiler was warding pre engage. That is most likely why considering wards produce mass hate now. Preward yourself and let him catch up after you grab aggro better.</P> <P>I was in a group the other night in PoF killing 58 and 59 giants.</P> <P>50zerker</P> <P>50fury</P> <P>50monk</P> <P>and myself 50 pally.</P> <P>Pop Amends(now adept 3 for 41pct hate, was app1 for only the 25 then) on the zerker and i kept agro just fine the whole night. We where killing non stop and getting pretty good xp to boot. Also taking into the fact i was in beta, maybe i have a bit of an edge on what to do and use. ZP and Courageous Dash are also master1 and clarion call is just adept 3, if that matters.</P> <P> </P> <P>But yah Nurta, try next time witht he defiler not pre warding, im thinking that will solve it.</P>

Blambil
09-15-2005, 11:00 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Majorminor wrote:<BR><BR> <P>One question though.  Theres a shield style, forget the name at the moment, that is grey to me now, and has been for a long time that interupts all targets in an encounter and adds hate.  Question is does this add hate on all mobs in encounter or just the one it hits.  Might be usfull if it hates em all, even though it's grey.</P> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's gone. I missed it too. It was a great way to keep aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Majorminor
09-15-2005, 11:04 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blambil wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Majorminor wrote:<BR><BR> <P>One question though.  Theres a shield style, forget the name at the moment, that is grey to me now, and has been for a long time that interupts all targets in an encounter and adds hate.  Question is does this add hate on all mobs in encounter or just the one it hits.  Might be usfull if it hates em all, even though it's grey.</P> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's gone. I missed it too. It was a great way to keep aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Bah, that's what I get for not looking at ALL my spells and skills hehe. silly Pally <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

Nurta
09-16-2005, 05:22 PM
<P>Ok I got adept3 Zealous Preaching and Amends last night.</P> <P>I was grouped with a wiz, guard, temp, warden, ranger (later a troub for the wiz) and I was MA b/c the guard was only level 48.  I had absolutely positively ZERO issues holding agro.  I put amends on the ranger b/c he uses legendary potions and has tricked out gear.  The 41% on amends is insane, so he was able to do allot of damage and not worry about stealing agro.  After last night I am very satisfied with knowing that I can hold agro, and take damage with this new patch.</P> <P>Thank you SoE!  And honestly, I don't care that I don't have as many hitpoints as other tanks my heals and wards more than make up for it.  If anyone is having issues holding agro upgrade AMENDS and ZEALOUS PREACHING you won't have the issue anymore.</P>

Majorminor
09-16-2005, 05:47 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nurta wrote:<BR> <P>Ok I got adept3 Zealous Preaching and Amends last night.</P> <P>I was grouped with a wiz, guard, temp, warden, ranger (later a troub for the wiz) and I was MA b/c the guard was only level 48.  I had absolutely positively ZERO issues holding agro.  I put amends on the ranger b/c he uses legendary potions and has tricked out gear.  The 41% on amends is insane, so he was able to do allot of damage and not worry about stealing agro.  After last night I am very satisfied with knowing that I can hold agro, and take damage with this new patch.</P> <P>Thank you SoE!  And honestly, I don't care that I don't have as many hitpoints as other tanks my heals and wards more than make up for it.  If anyone is having issues holding agro upgrade AMENDS and ZEALOUS PREACHING you won't have the issue anymore.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Thank you for posts like this.  Giving info like this is what we need to better understand our str and weaknesss, and how to improve on those weaknesses.<BR>