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daaarkfi
01-29-2005, 01:42 AM
<DIV>Where do you guys see paladins in the endgame? From what ive heard and seen theyre going to be mainly support tanks, what do you guys think our role will be in endgame?</DIV>

Lemli Wak
01-29-2005, 02:12 AM
<DIV>The Old Pally's home? Actually, I see us in the role of assisting the MT. As biased as I am in my belief that we make just as good an MT as Guardians, we really are meant to ward and heal and I'm good with that. So when all is said and done, I think we'll be in the role the devs had in mind for us. </DIV>

Matathi
01-29-2005, 05:03 AM
<blockquote><hr>Lemli Waker wrote:<DIV>The Old Pally's home? Actually, I see us in the role of assisting the MT. As biased as I am in my belief that we make just as good an MT as Guardians, we really are meant to ward and heal and I'm good with that. So when all is said and done, I think we'll be in the role the devs had in mind for us. </DIV><hr></blockquote>i agree. and offtanks can be very usefull in higher end areas

Bladezil
01-29-2005, 08:35 AM
<DIV>Main tanks. Level 31 and have yet to meet any other class in the game that can compete with our tanking abilities. Paladins dominate damage absorption.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Archangel
01-29-2005, 08:37 PM
<DIV>I am a lvl 36 pally barb and in my opinion , yes we make good support tanks , but i haave never seen a guardian survive in bad situations , say when the healer is LD for example , or when the healer isnt doing a good job , I can heal myself and others and I can keep hate very well as well. I have been in many situation where my group has been fighting a hard mob and the healer had no more power and  , if it were a guardian , the outcome would be death but I healed myself I we always come out of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have teamed up recently to kill mobs with max 3 people in total in a team and without a healer at all and we can take mobs with 2 arrows and 2-3 lvls highers than on cause i can self heal and mixed with a good drink to increase my regen , the xp is decent as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I aint saying we better at tanking than a guardian , I am just saying that we can tank just as good and we have the upper hand in tight situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its just people do not know our potential in a group because nobody pays attention to the healin and the warding. So keep your heads up my pally buddies!! </DIV>

Lawman
01-29-2005, 11:29 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Archangel69 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I am a lvl 36 pally barb and in my opinion , yes we make good support tanks , but i haave never seen a guardian survive in bad situations , say when the healer is LD for example , or when the healer isnt doing a good job , I can heal myself and others and I can keep hate very well as well. I have been in many situation where my group has been fighting a hard mob and the healer had no more power and  , if it were a guardian , the outcome would be death but I healed myself I we always come out of it.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I couldnt agree more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pallys can ward and heal...  not very well, granted..  Whats our ward?  243 points?  1 hit..  but I use it not for that alone.  Warding does generate aggro also.  Same goes for healing.  Ill heal myself a time or two just for aggro purposes, not necessarily because I need it.  But yes, that little extra healing can and has saved my group a time or three.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But yes, as biased as I am, I can see where Guardians will tank higher end content, sure..  Im 38 now, and can tank just as well as guardians the same age.  I was in a group the other day, and the group actually preferred that I tank.  Take into account that I tend to keep my AC and STA high for tanking purposes..  The guardian did have a few more AC and HP than I did, but nothing substantial.. The guardian and I were talking in tells, and I asked him what he thought about the group wanting me to tank, and he said "Good, I need a break from Tanking all the time."  He actually got to play with his 2H for awhile instead of the 1H/Shield combo for AC.  I think he rather enjoyed it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the lower levells, you can have either or tank.. higher, will probably be guardians.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> -Law<BR></DIV>

SanJ
01-31-2005, 10:14 PM
<DIV>I think Paladins will continue to play an important role as both main tanks and secondary tanks.  However, the end-game is the group you are working with during encounters on a daily basis.  If you group with friends that use TS or Vent, you'll probably have advanced combat plans that work very well!  If you pickup random groups all the time, your mileage will vary.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skill sets and class knowledge come into play a lot either as MT or secondary tank.  I have worked with low level 20 guardians/zerkers/etc. that have been much better main tanks then low level 30 guardians/zerkers/etc.  Some players are very good at holding aggro, understanding roles, offsetting taunts with wards and heals and tabbing through mobs quickly when one mob falls.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I played as a secondary tank to a guardian the other evening that would literally switch mobs mutliple times during an encounter messing up everyone's /assist or even worse, the guardian would wait for "many" seconds before moving from the dead mob to the next alive mob.  A few split seconds of downtime on red ^^ can mean the difference between life and death.  This of course is not guardian specific but could happen with any profession that is laggy, untrained, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've played with many tank classes that don't undestand the value of having a group camp in a safe spot during XP grinds or don't know routes well enough in "new" areas to avoid dragging in too many "adds".  I've played with other tanks even 30+ that start pulls with the main healer having less then 1/2 mana and the list goes on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A good tank is a tank that can coordinate the group well (a leader).  As the main tank, you should be coordinating combat, coordinating HOs, setting up mobs so scout class professions can back stab easily, waiting to pull until mana is sufficient, waiting to pull until you've been warded to absorb damage, making sure loot is split properly among party members and creating that feeling of "brotherhood" between all group members.  I feel the abilty to type fast even in "sticky" situations is a strong asset for any tank not using TS or Vent.  It's always a matter a time in a new group that I did not start myself, before I look up and see "Kalen" is now group leader.  That is earned not requested and gives a sense of pride in being a holy knight the group trusts and depends on for success.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You could take the same "experienced" player with an equal understanding of skills of each profession including Guardian, Paladin, Beserker, Monk, Bruiser, etc. you will have a successful group member that will fill any important role.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I often find myself in groups where the healer falls behind and I need to offset a few heals here and there to stay alive.  I used to shutter at the thoughts of secondary tank, but I have come to love this option as well.  It's very rewarding picking up stray mobs, healing the healer to gain aggro back while the rest of the group focuses on dps on the MT's target, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Paladin class is simply amazing at either role and I'm confident it will continue to be succesful through end-game!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV> <DIV>Kalen</DIV>

daaarkfi
01-31-2005, 11:12 PM
<DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>Well, after making this post, gaining a few more levels and grouping on my paladin a lot more. I've come to the conclusion im gonna love end game with a paladin, my only fear of bein a support tank was that i wouldnt be able to do decent dps .. but wow, i actually do pretty good dps. Now even if i am a support tank at 50, ill really be contributing something, taking stray aggro, doing good dps, and healing/rez'ing when needed.. I love my class <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV>

Korpo
02-01-2005, 01:32 AM
Actually, when I play with a guard the higher lvl char (unless one has a huge advantage in AC or something) gets to be MT, and if it's even, then I (the pal) usually is. The reason is that guards can dual wield and tend to pump out quite a bit more damage than I can. If he keeps pulling agro off me, then we switch off and continue on our way.As for wanting to be MT or OT or whatever, who cares? The only thing that bugs me is when I'm OT and the MT doesn't know what he's doing, not keeping the mobs off the casters and healers and such. But then again, I don't stand for people in my group that don't know what they're doing, not for long at least.

Ma
02-01-2005, 02:46 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lawman wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Archangel69 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I am a lvl 36 pally barb and in my opinion , yes we make good support tanks , but i haave never seen a guardian survive in bad situations , say when the healer is LD for example , or when the healer isnt doing a good job , I can heal myself and others and I can keep hate very well as well. I have been in many situation where my group has been fighting a hard mob and the healer had no more power and  , if it were a guardian , the outcome would be death but I healed myself I we always come out of it.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I couldnt agree more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pallys can ward and heal...  not very well, granted..  Whats our ward?  243 points?  1 hit..  but I use it not for that alone.  Warding does generate aggro also.  Same goes for healing.  Ill heal myself a time or two just for aggro purposes, not necessarily because I need it.  But yes, that little extra healing can and has saved my group a time or three.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> -Law<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sounds like you should upgrade to either adept 1 or 3, cuz my adept 3 ward absorbs 4-5 times 500+ damage<BR></DIV>

Lawman
02-01-2005, 08:55 AM
<DIV>All adept1's.. Im not rich... theyre charging 20+ gold for adept3's..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But, I did get a new ward (Demonstration of Faith is what I was referring to above, specifically) and got an adept1 for it right before I logged... Ill have to check that out.  Thanks!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> -Law</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Siphar
02-01-2005, 10:44 PM
<DIV>End game i can't personally comment on but i have had some experience being a lvl 37 paladin. Hers's my main thoughts as to the chosing the MT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Their lvl/gear and thus ability to hold aggro and take damage is paramount. However i do agree that paladin's make exceptional off tanks, but can also slide into the MT role very well indeed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I believe that you are required to be a better player to play a paladin well as compared to playing a guardian well. More thought and inputs are required, including the use of or our wards, spells etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottom line for me would be to chose the tank with the greater lvl and equipment - as well as the more experienced and skilled player. Therefore there is no real method to chosing the ''best'' tank or which class is better suited to MT at High level because a bad or poorly skilled tank with the best gear at lvl 50 is not comparable to a skilled/experienced tank with lesser gear at lvl 48 for example.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope to see all matter of tanks being considered at lvl 50 and beyond, afterall that is what the developers are being paid to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ach - 37 proud protector and paladin of Qeynos.</DIV>

GilfalasElaandrin
02-02-2005, 01:25 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> daaarkfire wrote:<BR> <DIV>Where do you guys see paladins in the endgame? From what ive heard and seen theyre going to be mainly support tanks,<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Odd to say that since so few people are even IN the endgame. Sounds more like classic EQ 1 brainwashing rearing it's head again.</P> <P>All fighter based classes are good tanks. None are so much overweaningly better at tanking than any other that they are the sole tank choice at any level. The only poeple who think so are the overly min maxing [FaarNerfed!] retentive power gamers who must squeeze every last erg of advanage possible out of every game system no matter how small the effect.</P> <P>Guardans, Berserkers, Shadowknights, Paladins, Monks and Brawlers are all decent tanks when properly geared and with a properly skilled player. The tanking equation is nearly equakl among ll three and the difference is mainly in their supplementary abilities.  I feel sorry for any Paladin that lets themselves get pidgeonholed as ONLY a support tank. Yes we do it well but  if were were meant as ONLY a support tank why do some of our healing lines require essences that we only have a chance to get when we are getting actively HIT? Because we are perfectly good tanks and are SUPPOSED to be getting hit is why.</P>

anterys
02-02-2005, 09:53 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GilfalasElaandrin wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> daaarkfire wrote:<BR> <DIV>Where do you guys see paladins in the endgame? From what ive heard and seen theyre going to be mainly support tanks,<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Odd to say that since so few people are even IN the endgame. Sounds more like classic EQ 1 brainwashing rearing it's head again.</P> <P>All fighter based classes are good tanks. None are so much overweaningly better at tanking than any other that they are the sole tank choice at any level. The only poeple who think so are the overly min maxing [FaarNerfed!] retentive power gamers who must squeeze every last erg of advanage possible out of every game system no matter how small the effect.</P> <P>Guardans, Berserkers, Shadowknights, Paladins, Monks and Brawlers are all decent tanks when properly geared and with a properly skilled player. The tanking equation is nearly equakl among ll three and the difference is mainly in their supplementary abilities.  I feel sorry for any Paladin that lets themselves get pidgeonholed as ONLY a support tank. Yes we do it well but  if were were meant as ONLY a support tank why do some of our healing lines require essences that we only have a chance to get when we are getting actively HIT? Because we are perfectly good tanks and are SUPPOSED to be getting hit is why.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Agreed.  I sometimes regret choosing Paladin.  My original intention was not a support tank.  I really enjoy the MT role and ask for it whenever I group.  Lots of people on these boards complain that we are not ideal tanks (just like Druids and Shamens I guess) and our main goal is one of support.  Time will tell.  I gotta believe that a skilled pally is every bit as good a tank as a skilled war.  I don't think there is a simple answer to the question "what class makes the best tank".

AgentHai
02-02-2005, 10:06 PM
<DIV>I have played a guardian to 24, and recently got my paladin to 24 so I can comment a bit on both.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My guardian was always sought out as MT primarily because the belief is that they are better tanks. They are great tanks, but I found the class boring with an emphasis on aggro abilities and constant group buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladins can MT as well, but I have to agree that we make better off tanks. We can support a MT in so much. I actually feel bad because when I was a guardian I didn't even realize how much paladin's were supporting me with wards, ac buffs, and even heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On my paladin, I've played with guardians who thought they were total badasses because they get hardly scratched in fights, not realizing that Im warding and buffing them with defense. I've saved guardians before when the healer was oom, and I start up as secondary healer. They still end up thanking the healer <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

Turb
02-03-2005, 06:55 PM
I really enjoy the offtank role. When LFG, I say 'happy to offtank'.I'm only a Crusader at the moment though, but I hope it stays the same into 20's <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I have gone to the trouble of getting Adept I's for many skills, including all my support skills, so Demonstration of Faith, Offering of Armament and the other one you get at L18 the name of which escapes me (tip: look for it on the Freeport fence broker, it's cheap there, I guess it drops more commonly off a certain Freeport mob!). These cost me 2g10s total on the broker, which I felt was reasonable. I got good money from selling quest gear - doing quests not fast grinding xp. Someone above mentioned Demonstration of Faith. For me I went froma 115hp ward to a 158hp ward at Level 17 (haven't checked the total at 18 yet, probably a little more), so +35% or so in warding. Peanuts for high levels, but at L18 it all helps... if you can be 35% better in your job than another L18 crusader who's not bothered to save up and upgrade...

githnaur
02-04-2005, 07:05 PM
I find it a rare treat to be the offtank, allows me to take a break from continually being MT. Whilst being OT, if things have started to go bad for the MT, I haven't yet found a problem in pulling the agro away and onto myself. You cant argue with our DoTs, debuffs, wards, heals and buffs for the excellent agro they can generate.A well-played paladin can be a fantastic group tank, has spot healing/warding that will save a group from wipe - either with outright healing ability or giving enough time for the scout/wizzy to get off that evac - and also allow you to effectively solo.The only thing I miss from old EQ1 paladins is the range of stuns we eventually had. Aside of that, the EQ2 variant is much more inline with what I thought a paladin character class should be capable of.As for "endgame", I'll happily stand in front of anything and take + survive a kicking, or shunt my AC and wards onto a higher DPS fighter. The way things currently stand, we (thankfully) appear to have both options open to us./applaud devsNow, where's that Nature's Defender heritage quest...../pines