Harm Touch Nerf

[Dolamaine]

<DIV>PvP:</DIV> <DIV>Direct damage spells and combat arts are now limited to doing a maximum of 40% of a players maximum health. /cry LU 31</DIV>

[Sportak]

<P>I don't play on a pvp server, but all the same surely this affects other classes as much or more than it affects us? Many classes have a "big hit" attack of some sort, and wizards etc have a few that will surely be hit by this. HT has a pretty long recast and surely pvp SKs don't fight just once every 15 minutes? Don't get me wrong I dislike seeing changes that seem to be limiting needlessly, but in the scale of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty LUs that's not the worst is it?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Mind you, I went through LU13 with my lvl 50 Guardian :smileysad:</P>

[tanis147]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DeacFrost wrote:<BR> <P>I don't play on a pvp server, but all the same surely this affects other classes as much or more than it affects us? Many classes have a "big hit" attack of some sort, and wizards etc have a few that will surely be hit by this. HT has a pretty long recast and surely pvp SKs don't fight just once every 15 minutes? Don't get me wrong I dislike seeing changes that seem to be limiting needlessly, but in the scale of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]ty LUs that's not the worst is it?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Mind you, I went through LU13 with my lvl 50 Guardian :smileysad:</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>i  agree, not saying  i  like  the  change  but  in  pvp  it's  more  of  an  oh  crap  get  me  outa trouble  spell. and  as  long as  it  does  about  40%  damage  it  can  still  be  that.

[Eluzay]

most classes with big hits have multiple big hits and not on 15 min timer... this is the worst for sk overall of any class.  We are not the uber class in any way in pvp but this change makes us very gimped in solo pvp.I am not saying that HT is our end all be all in solo play, most of the time i am walkin around with it down, but vs a brig/swashy/bruiser/monk we really have very little chance to win without HT if they are geared right and know their class... and of course that is about 60% of the solo pvp out there (with another 20% being rangers).ahh well just makes conan look that much better if it ever gets released hehe.<div></div>

[Norrsken]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eluzay wrote:<BR>most classes with big hits have multiple big hits and not on 15 min timer... this is the worst for sk overall of any class.  We are not the uber class in any way in pvp but this change makes us very gimped in solo pvp.<BR><BR>I am not saying that HT is our end all be all in solo play, most of the time i am walkin around with it down, but vs a brig/swashy/bruiser/monk we really have very little chance to win without HT if they are geared right and know their class... and of course that is about 60% of the solo pvp out there (with another 20% being rangers).<BR><BR><BR>ahh well just makes conan look that much better if it ever gets released hehe.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I am gonna have to get up to t7 some day with my sk, because I havent seen anything like this in any tier yet (Being dependant on HT). (Being in t6 atm) 

[Eluzay]

<div><blockquote><hr>roxer2b wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Eluzay wrote:most classes with big hits have multiple big hits and not on 15 min timer... this is the worst for sk overall of any class.  We are not the uber class in any way in pvp but this change makes us very gimped in solo pvp.I am not saying that HT is our end all be all in solo play, most of the time i am walkin around with it down, but vs a brig/swashy/bruiser/monk we really have very little chance to win without HT if they are geared right and know their class... and of course that is about 60% of the solo pvp out there (with another 20% being rangers).ahh well just makes conan look that much better if it ever gets released hehe. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>I am gonna have to get up to t7 some day with my sk, because I havent seen anything like this in any tier yet (Being dependant on HT). (Being in t6 atm) <hr></blockquote>only dependant on HT vs the swashy/brig/monk crew... anyone else I dont need it, including rangers.</div>

[Eluzay]

oh and that is vs the good ones, not just any, but there are a few good ones out there no question. a swashy with burns up is evil, and if doom judgement does not clear out those buffs it is a 10 second fight. it really is night and day, in T6 I was owning, I think SK peaks in pvp at 55 personally<div></div>

[Haciv]

Where are the patch notes at?  Didnt see them in TC notes.

[Norrsken]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Eluzay wrote:<BR>oh and that is vs the good ones, not just any, but there are a few good ones out there no question. a swashy with burns up is evil, and if doom judgement does not clear out those buffs it is a 10 second fight. <BR><BR>it really is night and day, in T6 I was owning, I think SK peaks in pvp at 55 personally<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Which is one of the reasons I stopped at 55. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That and the broken resists in t7. Nowadays, he's sitting at 55 just to wait for my GFs warden and my buddys brig to catch up. Gnnh!

[Nocifer Deathblade]

<DIV>Hehe, you got surprised? EQ1 PVP had the same "nerf" to 66% LONG time ago. I expected that it would happen same thing to EQ2 cuz it's just overpowering 1-shotting ppls that SOE didn't want to see. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Nocifer Deathblade on <span class=date_text>01-17-2007</span> <span class=time_text>10:50 AM</span>

[Eluzay]

<div><blockquote><hr>Nocifer Deathblade wrote:<div></div> <div>Hehe, you got surprised? EQ1 PVP had the same "nerf" to 66% LONG time ago. I expected that it would happen same thing to EQ2 cuz it's just overpowering 1-shotting ppls that SOE didn't want to see. </div><p>Message Edited by Nocifer Deathblade on <span class="date_text">01-17-2007</span> <span class="time_text">10:50 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>66% i can see, using harm touch before your opponent is at 60% means either you are a noob or they got the jump on you and you need the heal (mmm love reaver line)</div>

[Kazer]

the thing is though that we have one nuke capable of that. wizards and other classes have what....3 or 4? so lets do the math. 4 nukes doing 40% damage every 30 seconds...vs 1 nuke doing 40% damage every 15 min...in the end once again, we get the short end of the stick.

[Norrsken]

<cite>Kazerus wrote:</cite><blockquote>the thing is though that we have one nuke capable of that. wizards and other classes have what....3 or 4? so lets do the math. 4 nukes doing 40% damage every 30 seconds...vs 1 nuke doing 40% damage every 15 min...in the end once again, we get the short end of the stick. </blockquote>On the other hand, it still heals, which is the main reason I use it. Most people run around with so [Removed for Content] much disease resists it wont hit very hard anyways.

[Eluzay]

<cite>Norrsken wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kazerus wrote:</cite><blockquote>the thing is though that we have one nuke capable of that. wizards and other classes have what....3 or 4? so lets do the math. 4 nukes doing 40% damage every 30 seconds...vs 1 nuke doing 40% damage every 15 min...in the end once again, we get the short end of the stick. </blockquote>On the other hand, it still heals, which is the main reason I use it. Most people run around with so [I cannot control my vocabulary] much disease resists it wont hit very hard anyways. </blockquote> 31 went into place without this change, not sure why it got popped back to the top.

[Muraazi]

Where are you seeing this? Because I don't see it posted anywhere...

[Norrsken]

<cite>Eluzay wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Norrsken wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kazerus wrote:</cite><blockquote>the thing is though that we have one nuke capable of that. wizards and other classes have what....3 or 4? so lets do the math. 4 nukes doing 40% damage every 30 seconds...vs 1 nuke doing 40% damage every 15 min...in the end once again, we get the short end of the stick. </blockquote>On the other hand, it still heals, which is the main reason I use it. Most people run around with so [I cannot control my vocabulary] much disease resists it wont hit very hard anyways. </blockquote> 31 went into place without this change, not sure why it got popped back to the top. </blockquote>Yes, I know. still waiting for the PvP test server with that particular thing being tested to come online. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[GrlGmr]

<cite>Eluzay wrote:</cite><blockquote> <blockquote><hr />Nocifer Deathblade wrote: Hehe, you got surprised? EQ1 PVP had the same "nerf" to 66% LONG time ago. I expected that it would happen same thing to EQ2 cuz it's just overpowering 1-shotting ppls that SOE didn't want to see. <p>Message Edited by Nocifer Deathblade on 01-17-2007 10:50 AM </p><hr /></blockquote> 66% i can see, using harm touch before your opponent is at 60% means either you are a noob or they got the jump on you and you need the heal (mmm love reaver line) </blockquote><p>The refresh time on Harm Touch in EQ1 is also much, much longer than in EQ2. EQ1 SKs get it much earlier than in EQ2, but last time I checked without AAs that reduce the refresh timer, it's about 75 minutes between reuse. Remember, you don't start getting AAs in EQ1 until you hit level 50, and many of them have minimum level requirements. Not sure what the level requirements are for the AAs that reduce the HT reuse timer, but the timer does not count down when you're logged out for the PVP server. Overall, HT is more powerful in EQ1, but you get to use it a lot less.</p>

[Kazer]

and i believe we have all agreed that eq1 players have to have an insane dedication to even get past lvl 20 <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> eq1 is a decidedly much much harder game then eq2.

[Zaviur]

The fact is no class has an instant cast while running I win button.  Rangers, druids and Wizards don't have it.  An SK runing through a group of ques to HT a Healer isn't what I call balance at all.  Most now I'm saying Most classes with big hits take a long time to cast some even have special requirements like having to be invis but to have an instant I win button like that where is the fun in that.  It's prolly why 75% of the tanks on the evil side are sk's.

[Norrsken]

<cite>Zaviur wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fact is no class has an instant cast while running I win button.  Rangers, druids and Wizards don't have it.  An SK runing through a group of ques to HT a Healer isn't what I call balance at all.  Most now I'm saying Most classes with big hits take a long time to cast some even have special requirements like having to be invis but to have an instant I win button like that where is the fun in that.  It's prolly why 75% of the tanks on the evil side are sk's.</blockquote> hmm.. All instant skills can be used on the run, just fyi. Aaaand, there is not one hell of a lot of time diff between oh, say .5s cast timer and 0. Do you knwo the avarage time it takes for a human to react to unforseen things? It is not less than .5 seconds, thus making those.5 extra seconds utterly useless in regards to alpha strikes.  Granted, HT can be used from afar, but, if it straight kills a healer, that healer has really bad gear. In fact, I havent oneshotted a healer since my sk were 20, and I could attack lvl 12s. Now, most big hits are standing still. at least the ranged. Such as snipers shot, or Ice nova. snipers shot, otoh, is castable while stealthed. Makes a huge difference really, not to mention that the ranger has quite a fwe more attacks dealing a respectable damage. The sk dont. Ice nova has a what, 20 second reuse? that wiz [Removed for Content] better have to stand still if they get that reuse. And yes, harm touch is the reason we have oodles of sk tanks. And <i>strangely</i> enough, most of the SKs are really, really crappy sks that couldnt swat a fly without HT. There is a perfectly valid way to not die to HT. Get disease resists. Heck, half the FP population deals disease damage, its probably gonna serve you well in other fights as well.

[Arthik]

I play on a PvE server, but I do agree -- A good deal of SKs couldn't win without using HT. I regularly duel and win without the use of HT; I view relying on HT like relying on a crutch. Better SKs learn to fight without relying on it, and when that happens, HT becomes mere icing on the cake. It's usually insult to injury when my defeated opponents ask me if I used HT during the duel, and I tell them that it's still available for use.

[Kazer]

<cite>Zaviur wrote:</cite><blockquote>The fact is no class has an instant cast while running I win button.  Rangers, druids and Wizards don't have it.  An SK runing through a group of ques to HT a Healer isn't what I call balance at all.  Most now I'm saying Most classes with big hits take a long time to cast some even have special requirements like having to be invis but to have an instant I win button like that where is the fun in that.  It's prolly why 75% of the tanks on the evil side are sk's.</blockquote><p> errr how about that brigand attack that reduces ur mitigation by 3000 or something like that only to allow them to perma stun you? errr hello...kill button.</p><p>and in regards to not using HT in duels.....would a wizard not use his dps because its an advantage? how about a gaurdian not using his mitigation because we dont have it....or maybe rangers without bows because thats something their opposition dsnt have. do you see my point? if the other classes wont give up their advantages then i wont either. i am FULLY capable of owning people without ht...infact ive killed lvl 70 zerkers as a lvl 65 SK without using HT (yes he sucked and he was heated so he wasnt thinking right), but until other classes give up their advantages, i wont give up mine.</p>

[Darry]

For every SK on PvP in T7 there are at least three bruisers, this nerf won't really bother me that much because I never rely on PT for PvP, it is handy in 3v1 odds to drop someone fast but 2/1v1 it is a waste of a recast, this nerf hits the wizards much harder than anyone else as if they weren't gimped enough at 70 for PvP <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Norrsken]

<cite>Ischaria wrote:</cite><blockquote>For every SK on PvP in T7 there are at least three bruisers, this nerf won't really bother me that much because I never rely on PT for PvP, it is handy in 3v1 odds to drop someone fast but 2/1v1 it is a waste of a recast, this nerf hits the wizards much harder than anyone else as if they weren't gimped enough at 70 for PvP <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>Yes, that is oh so true. The sk has lifetaps, plate and some other goodies to help them out. HT is just some cream on the top. Wizzies have very little except big nukes. Otoh, this change pretty much just serves to point out slight imbalances in the classes. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Such as the really inferior survivability of the mages.

[Aenkidun]

On Nagafen on my SK I usually only used HT to finish people off when they were below 40% hp and/or trying to run away so... Unless you were actually just going for a one shot or something I wouldn't see why you would use it when they can probably just heal it back up during the fight if it doesn't kill them.

[Eluzay]

<cite>Norrsken wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Eluzay wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Norrsken wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kazerus wrote:</cite><blockquote>the thing is though that we have one nuke capable of that. wizards and other classes have what....3 or 4? so lets do the math. 4 nukes doing 40% damage every 30 seconds...vs 1 nuke doing 40% damage every 15 min...in the end once again, we get the short end of the stick. </blockquote>On the other hand, it still heals, which is the main reason I use it. Most people run around with so [I cannot control my vocabulary] much disease resists it wont hit very hard anyways. </blockquote> 31 went into place without this change, not sure why it got popped back to the top. </blockquote>Yes, I know. still waiting for the PvP test server with that particular thing being tested to come online. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </blockquote>I got a request to copy my sk to the beta server the other day <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> it is coming.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<p>Anyone know how it will work exactly?</p><p>If solo buffed HP are 8600ish, it will still hit for 3400-3500? Raid buffed at 13,400...it will still hit for 5400ish? Is that mean at best?...not more than 40%? Still seems like a strong hit non-crit. Won't make a big diff in PvE if that's the scenario we're looking at.</p>

[Eluzay]

CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote><p>Anyone know how it will work exactly?</p><p>If solo buffed HP are 8600ish, it will still hit for 3400-3500? Raid buffed at 13,400...it will still hit for 5400ish? Is that mean at best?...not more than 40%? Still seems like a strong hit non-crit. Won't make a big diff in PvE if that's the scenario we're looking at.</p></blockquote> the cap proposed is only for pvp combat.

[Zanix]

<p>1st off, I think players who aren't on pvp servers, don't really know the situation as much as the ones who do. </p><p> Yes, some SKs use HT as a crutch, others use it optimally or when crucial. When you have an even 6 on 6 pvp going on for example. you *could* start the fight HTing thier tank when he is low on HPs...or....you can save it to when YOU are low on HPs and turn the tables and outcome. </p><p> To some degree, HT defines our class, whether it's PVP or PVE. It's part of the SK since EQ1 beta. It's always been known as 'the' most feared attack a player can instantly throw, and now - it's being bound with limitations. </p><p>more so, it would be like gimping a bruiser's knock out combo, or a ranger's snipers shot, or a wizard's fusion, or a healers ward. </p><p>Watering down what definines a class ...waters down the class...watering down the class to "solve" class balance issues is not the right answer. Too much watering would make us all too similar, and diversity is sacrificed for 'class balance'</p><p> as an edit:  a 40% hit still will make or break most fights for us, so It's not a big deal. Just pisses me off to know the whiners finally are getting our HT nerfed after all these years.</p>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<cite>Eluzay wrote:</cite><blockquote>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote: <blockquote><p>Anyone know how it will work exactly?</p><p>If solo buffed HP are 8600ish, it will still hit for 3400-3500? Raid buffed at 13,400...it will still hit for 5400ish? Is that mean at best?...not more than 40%? Still seems like a strong hit non-crit. Won't make a big diff in PvE if that's the scenario we're looking at.</p></blockquote> the cap proposed is only for pvp combat. </blockquote>ooo..Ok Thank you.

[Norrsken]

<cite>Zanix wrote:</cite><blockquote>more so, it would be like gimping a bruiser's knock out combo, or a ranger's snipers shot, or a wizard's fusion, or a healers ward. <p>Watering down what definines a class ...waters down the class...watering down the class to "solve" class balance issues is not the right answer. Too much watering would make us all too similar, and diversity is sacrificed for 'class balance'</p><p> as an edit:  a 40% hit still will make or break most fights for us, so It's not a big deal. Just pisses me off to know the whiners finally are getting our HT nerfed after all these years.</p></blockquote>Actually... The rangers snipers shot, the wizzies Ice nova, fusion and so on, will ALSO get the 40% cap so its not just HT, its <b><u>all</u></b> the potential oneshotters. AND the HT got a 66% cap or something like that in EQ1 didnt it?

[Zanix]

<p>true to an extent... but at the same time, other than HT  ....the limitations don't really change anything.</p><p> It's more rare for a sniper shot to hit for 80% total health, where HT can hit 80% more often.</p>

[Odio]

<cite>Zanix wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>1st off, I think players who aren't on pvp servers, don't really know the situation as much as the ones who do. </p><p> Yes, some SKs use HT as a crutch, others use it optimally or when crucial. When you have an even 6 on 6 pvp going on for example. you *could* start the fight HTing thier tank when he is low on HPs...or....you can save it to when YOU are low on HPs and turn the tables and outcome. </p><p> To some degree, HT defines our class, whether it's PVP or PVE. It's part of the SK since EQ1 beta. It's always been known as 'the' most feared attack a player can instantly throw, and now - it's being bound with limitations. </p><p>more so,<span style="color: #0066ff"> it would be like gimping a bruiser's knock out combo</span>, or a ranger's snipers shot, or a wizard's fusion, or a healers ward. </p><p>Watering down what definines a class ...waters down the class...watering down the class to "solve" class balance issues is not the right answer. Too much watering would make us all too similar, and diversity is sacrificed for 'class balance'</p><p> as an edit:  a 40% hit still will make or break most fights for us, so It's not a big deal. Just pisses me off to know the whiners finally are getting our HT nerfed after all these years.</p></blockquote><p>Being a Bruiser that doesnt raid and doesnt have ALL masters ( /cry) it has been (my two copper)</p><p>I see that this update will make your HT a bit less handy in a pinch and its not cool.  I think the nerfing of any class is plain st00pid. I say to all nerf criers "Learn your toon"  but anyways side note. Will this effect the heal proc you can add with AA's? </p>

[Norrsken]

<cite>Zanix wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>true to an extent... but at the same time, other than HT  ....the limitations don't really change anything.</p><p> It's more rare for a sniper shot to hit for 80% total health, where HT can hit 80% more often.</p></blockquote>To me, its more like 50-60%. Then again, I seem to fight a lot of oranges. (Take THAT you filty fruit! /usea harm touch)

[Zanix]

the heal with 5 AAs sucks to begin with, i pray they don't nerf that as well. I think mine (with 5) does about a 900 pt heal.

[Norrsken]

<cite>Zanix wrote:</cite><blockquote>the heal with 5 AAs sucks to begin with, i pray they don't nerf that as well. I think mine (with 5) does about a 900 pt heal. </blockquote>No, just damage is being capped. And if it sucks, dont use it.

[Zanix]

I'm contemplating it. but. It has 'some' use to it. It has saved me several times, but 5 AAs is quite an investment for only 900pt. heal

[Odio]

<cite>Norrsken wrote:</cite><blockquote>To me, its more like 50-60%. Then again, I seem to fight a lot of oranges. (Take THAT you filty fruit! /usea harm touch) </blockquote><p> /Cheer!</p><p><img src="/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

5 AAs gives me ~1350 Heal..it was around 900 at 4.

[Norrsken]

<cite>Zanix wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm contemplating it. but. It has 'some' use to it. It has saved me several times, but 5 AAs is quite an investment for only 900pt. heal</blockquote>Mine has a very good use. Im usually tanking groups without healers (they seem to have my name on some board somewhere, the way they always pick me. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) It saves my butt whenever we get some adds and death march is down so tap veins wont go off. Leech touch saves me every single time. Or when a mob does a freak dps spike landing me at 5% with another swing on the way, HT gets me back in buisness and the healers wets themselves. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />