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Mermut
10-18-2018, 09:54 PM
All the heroic zones have a 'mysterious' debuff called Chaotic Leech that applies as soon as you enter.<br />It's description reads:<br />"Disrupts natural energies, reducing wards and healing to those afflicted."<br /> <br />So, I did a few tests.<br />In the library:<br />Mystic Ancestral Ward: 212m<br />Warden Constant Currents: 108m<br /> <br />Ruins of Rathe (T1 heroic)<br />Mystic Ancestral Ward: 28m<br />Warden Constant Currents: 28m<br /> <br /> <br />As a healer, this is troubling for a number of reasons:<br />1) The 'reduction' to heals is not specified in the debuff. We know what offensive stats we have to over come, because the mobs "Planar Guard" gives us the numbers. But the stats the healers have to deal with are hidden.<br />2) The reduction is huge.. but we don't know if it's a flat reduction, fervor effectiveness reduction, potency? crit bonus? Is it done before or after the fact? What, exactly, can we do to increase our effectiveness the most? We don't know.. because of 1) from above...<br />3) The small test with the warden and mystic implies that one of two things are happening with this debuff<br />3a) There are hard caps on heals/wards in these zones, so they will never, ever get easier to heal, no matter what gear the healer does or doesn't have/get. If true, this is extremely depressing as a healer. Never actually getting better/more effective no matter how much effort/gear you spend/get suggests there is no reason to put in the effort or get the gear. <img src="/images/smilies/frown.gif" alt="Frown" /><br />3b) Different heals and/or heal classes are affected differently.. so some classes may be hit harder by the debuff then other classes.<br /> <br /> <br />I'll be honest, I'm not happy with the idea of an artificial nerf to healer effectiveness, but that pales beside my feelings about the fact that the information about how and how much is hidden.<br /> <br />Edit: poped my warden into T2 zone and the ward went down to 22m... so as the zones get harder and mobs, presumably, start hitting harder, healers appear to get even LESS effective <img src="/images/smilies/frown.gif" alt="Frown" />

Quigly
10-18-2018, 10:53 PM
Does the ward go down if you remove potency? Perhaps it is like the hidden potency mitigation from PoP. Toning down the power of all heals might actually even the playing field among healers combined with bleedthrough. Ward stacking isn't useless if wards are small enough to break before expiring, and HoT might not necessarily be complete heals every tick.<br /> <br />EDIT: would be great to see a state of healing overview that explains how all these changes are meant to work together so we can provide useful feedback

Mermut
10-18-2018, 10:57 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Quigly"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Quigly said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6524737#post-6524737" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Does the ward go down if you remove potency? Perhaps it is like the hidden potency mitigation from PoP. Toning down the power of all heals might actually even the playing field among healers combined with bleedthrough. Ward stacking isn't useless if wards are small enough to break before expiring, and HoT might not necessarily be complete heals every tick.<br /> <br />EDIT: would be great to see a state of healing overview that explains how all these changes are meant to work together so we can provide useful feedback</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>It's clearly not just a potency issue. The mystic ward was almost twice the size of the warden ward in Myrist but they were both the same size inside Ruins of Rathe.<br /> <br />But you've illustrated my main point.. the lack of information we have about the debuff.<br />I'm realistic enough to know that the huge healing debuff is likely already 'a done deal'.. I'm hoping we can get transparency on the debuff so we, as healers, can either take steps to maximize our healing output... or worst case have it confirmed that it is out of our control.

Gillymann
10-18-2018, 11:02 PM
Smells a bit like some kind of a hard cap.<br /> <br />More hidden mechanics. Yay.

Quigly
10-18-2018, 11:03 PM
Ah, yes i didn't notice till a second read through that it wasn't scaling based on the original size of the ward, which you illustrated. That is indeed troubling at first glance...

Cunning
10-18-2018, 11:05 PM
The fact that a 200 and 100 Mill Ward both dropped to 28 sounds like a hard cap. Which is just as troublesome as % based heals. Actually worse in some ways. If they are heading for a version of the potency mit but for heals, at least we could eventually gear enough to get ahead. If it's hard capped, that doesn't sound very fun.

Gillymann
10-18-2018, 11:16 PM
Will be interesting to see what actual heal parses look like.<br /> <br />Maybe it's just some kind of cap on wards.<br /> <br />RIP shamans.

Mermut
10-18-2018, 11:21 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Gillymann"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Gillymann said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6524749#post-6524749" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Will be interesting to see what actual heal parses look like.<br /> <br />Maybe it's just some kind of cap on wards.<br /> <br />RIP shamans.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>It's not just wards. Other heals are vastly reduced too. It's just hard to see by how much since you have to be damaged to take a heal. I don't have definitive numbers for heals, because I can't tell what, exactly the 'max' a heal is in the library because hp totals are too low.<br />The first hit of my warden's Slyvan Bloom XI GM hit for 31m in the heroic instance (I swapped in/out of my crafting gear to have something TO heal). The max theoretical size of heals are bigger that that of wards.. but that doesn't help much when determining reduction.. because can't GET what the actual max is.

Gillymann
10-18-2018, 11:34 PM
Why bother to document spells, abilities, and stats when they are going to be mitigated with hidden mechanics?<br /> <br />Might as well just document every spell/ability/stat with: "Kinda does x effect except when mitigated by an algorithm you will never see."

Loke
10-18-2018, 11:35 PM
If it's a hard cap that's probably a game ender, can't imagine any priests sticking around in that environment. Game could possibly continue with merc healers.

Gninja
10-19-2018, 12:01 AM
No one has seen how its supposed to work yet due to beta server issues.The healing changes are a work in progress. Don't flip tables just yet <img src="/images/smilies/smile.gif" alt="Smile" />

Monstuhr
10-19-2018, 01:05 AM
Most people who know me will tell you I am a fairly level headed person and tend to give the devs the benefit of the doubt on changes. But this does seem a little overly punitive to shaman. Not only will this new detrimental effect cause a flat reduction in the ability for everyone to heal, but then on top of that you are adding in considerable unwardable damage with the new bleedthrough changes. <br /> <br />It seems to me trying to balance both of these effects at the same time will be quite the task. I really hope that these finalized effects are in beta early enough for everyone to test. It seems that the combination of these two abilities will make it exceptionally difficult for shaman to heal content.<br /><br />Now, this may be intended. Perhaps you are trying to require two healers to heal every group. I really hope that is not the direction the game is going...

Clintsat
10-19-2018, 01:40 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Gninja"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Gninja said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6524764#post-6524764" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">No one has seen how its supposed to work yet due to beta server issues.The healing changes are a work in progress. Don't flip tables just yet <img src="/images/smilies/smile.gif" alt="Smile" /></span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />We want to help and make sure it works but it would really help to understand what the goals are of the changes and what the expected outcome should look like. I realize that there are going to be some that don't like it and you don't want to argue the strategy...but it will be really hard to help test if we don't know what good is supposed to look like.

Mermut
10-19-2018, 02:04 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Gninja"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Gninja said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6524764#post-6524764" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">No one has seen how its supposed to work yet due to beta server issues.The healing changes are a work in progress. Don't flip tables just yet <img src="/images/smilies/smile.gif" alt="Smile" /></span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Is there any intent to have the debuff actually tell us what it is doing?

Alarra
10-19-2018, 04:50 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Gninja"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Gninja said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6524764#post-6524764" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">No one has seen how its supposed to work yet due to beta server issues.The healing changes are a work in progress. Don't flip tables just yet <img src="/images/smilies/smile.gif" alt="Smile" /></span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Plrease give us numbers and what should be the expected behaviour, then we can test whether the expected behaviour is happening and whether such expected behaviour enables us to do the zones.<br /> <br />More details PLEEEEEEASE.<img src="/images/smilies/wink.gif" alt="Wink" />

Adoninilol
10-19-2018, 11:42 AM
Why add heal limiters, potency/sda avoidance to mobs instead of just limiting stats you're giving to players.<br /> <br />It feels like a over complicated system, that is quite confusing.

Mermut
10-19-2018, 06:26 PM
Any eta/word on when this will be fixed/adjusted/whatever so we know when to test it and/or when tests will give meaningful results?<br />This is kind of a 'big deal' for healers....<br /> <br />The lack of patch notes means we, as players, have no idea what changes go in from day to day....

Errrorr
10-19-2018, 06:58 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Gninja"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Gninja said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6524764#post-6524764" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">No one has seen how its supposed to work yet due to beta server issues.The healing changes are a work in progress. Don't flip tables just yet <img src="/images/smilies/smile.gif" alt="Smile" /></span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />Could we get an explanation of how it is meant to work? It's kind of a big thing for people.

Flatline
10-19-2018, 10:30 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Gninja"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Gninja said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6524764#post-6524764" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">No one has seen how its supposed to work yet due to beta server issues.The healing changes are a work in progress. Don't flip tables just yet <img src="/images/smilies/smile.gif" alt="Smile" /></span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />Gninja, you been here for how long? you should KNOW its what happens when things arent explained, and put public. people go with the worst possible option.<br /> <br />Im sure that eventually you guys will take the time and explain the logic and hte mechanics behinds it, however till you do so you KNOW it will be "the sky is falling" ... and right fully so, as its all a guessing game.<br /> <br />I would advice using the time to actually explain the changes and why and how they affect game play, because EQ2 lives of its loyal population, and is as far as i know - correct me if im wrong - not a game with a hugely growing population, ergo logic would suggest to not "fud" (Fear, uncertainty and doubt) the population that is playing.<br /> <br />In all respect!<br />Me <img src="/images/smilies/smile.gif" alt="Smile" /> the slack tank

Thand
10-20-2018, 10:03 AM
Unless they want tp mask sure the heroic zone are the same challenge and take the same time for a heroic group as as for a t4 raid equiped group. I really hope they do not add Hard caps for heal and dps to all zones.

Mermut
10-20-2018, 10:41 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Thand"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Thand said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6525004#post-6525004" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Unless they want tp mask sure the heroic zone are the same challenge and take the same time for a heroic group as as for a t4 raid equiped group. I really hope they do not add Hard caps for heal and dps to all zones.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Chaotic Leech doesn't affect dps at all.. it is 100% a healing/healer debuff

Gillymann
10-20-2018, 03:32 PM
I offer some speculation:<br /><br />Gninja is legitimately trying to balance out healing capabilities, and he is using the chaotic leach debuff to:<br /><br />1. Short cut the balancing issues with a debuff instead of addressing the underlying class/game design problems.<br /><br />2. Iterate to a solution, which is why he may not be interested in publicizing the debuff mechanics at this time. <br /><br />However, players are already sniffing out the foreseeable problems with the band-aid/duct tape approach to design.<br /><br />For example, what is the fun of playing a healer if your capabilities are going to be capped?<br /><br />Or, why play a game where the mechanics puzzle can't be fully discerned?<br /><br />This approach tweaking the game is nothing new, they've been approaching it this way for years, and given the current resources available for development, I fear folks are just going to have to deal with what is.

Mermut
10-20-2018, 06:07 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Gillymann"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Gillymann said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6525019#post-6525019" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I offer some speculation:<br /> <br />Gninja is legitimately trying to balance out healing capabilities, and he is using the chaotic leach debuff to:<br /> <br />1. Short cut the balancing issues with a debuff instead of addressing the underlying class/game design problems.<br /> <br />2. Iterate to a solution, which is why he may not be interested in publicizing the debuff mechanics at this time.<br /> <br />However, players are already sniffing out the foreseeable problems with the band-aid/duct tape approach to design.<br /> <br />For example, what is the fun of playing a healer if your capabilities are going to be capped?<br /> <br />Or, why play a game where the mechanics puzzle can't be fully discerned?<br /> <br />This approach tweaking the game is nothing new, they've been approaching it this way for years, and given the current resources available for development, I fear folks are just going to have to deal with what is.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Yeah.. I don't know if it has occurred to the devs that there are healers who are just as interested in the mechanics and numbers of healing (and I do NOT mean the heal parse) as dpsers. We're looking at different numbers.. but we're just as interested in maximizing our effectiveness... again, heal parse != effectiveness.<br />We want to be able to affect and improve our effectiveness through gear, AA and 'rotations' just as much as dpsers. And just like them, we need the information (like the mobs planar protection buff gives dpsers) to do our job most effectively and most efficiently.

Mermut
10-21-2018, 06:44 PM
More data... and it proves this debuff is... well.. let's use the word convulted<br /> <br />IN LIBRARY<br />Umbral Barrier: 348,409,147<br />Ancestral Ward: 212,834,719<br />Oberon: 463,674,345<br /> <br />IN T1 HEROIC<br />Umbral Barrier: 144,794,017 (41% normal size)<br />Ancestral Ward: 55,574,322 (26% normal size)<br />Oberon: 73,373,182 (15% normal size)<br /> <br />You'll notice that the 'base' value of Oberon is over 100m bigger then Umbral Barrier's base.. but the debuffed value is over 71m LESS.<br /> <br />Devs... healers deserve to know what they're healers are going to be doing in heroic zones. It is, literally, our JOB.<br />I can accept this ginormous nerf to healers is a done deal. At least tell us WHAT it is doing so we have a clue what our arts are actually going to do. Tools that are mislabeled are almost as bad as no tools.. and right now, in heroic (and raid) zones, healer tools have 'incorrect' details on what they actually do.<br /> <br />Additional Note: The debuff is BIGGER in T2 zones.. so as the mobs hit harder, healers are also hobbled worse.

Alarra
10-22-2018, 04:37 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Mermut"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Mermut said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6525297#post-6525297" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Devs... healers deserve to know what they're healers are going to be doing in heroic zones. It is, literally, our JOB.<br />I can accept this ginormous nerf to healers is a done deal. At least tell us WHAT it is doing so we have a clue what our arts are actually going to do. Tools that are mislabeled are almost as bad as no tools.. and right now, in heroic (and raid) zones, healer tools have 'incorrect' details on what they actually do.<br /> <br />Additional Note: The debuff is BIGGER in T2 zones.. so as the mobs hit harder, healers are also hobbled worse.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>If they were going to give us more information, they would have done it a few days ago. Like Kandy did with the bleedthrough changes.<br />It seems that it is still getting tweaked from Gninja's response. Personally if they had this thing the works for months, why wait until the 11th hour to tweak stuff.

Mermut
10-22-2018, 06:39 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Alarra"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Alarra said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6525385#post-6525385" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">If they were going to give us more information, they would have done it a few days ago. Like Kandy did with the bleedthrough changes.<br />It seems that it is still getting tweaked from Gninja's response. Personally if they had this thing the works for months, why wait until the 11th hour to tweak stuff.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>As it is, we can't even make informed decisions about what to cast when. We might as well just have all our heals a single macro and let rng decide which one actually goes off <img src="/images/smilies/frown.gif" alt="Frown" />

Gillymann
10-22-2018, 07:20 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Mermut"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Mermut said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6525397#post-6525397" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">As it is, we can't even make informed decisions about what to cast when. We might as well just have all our heals a single macro and let rng decide which one actually goes off <img src="/images/smilies/frown.gif" alt="Frown" /></span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Are you calling me out again? Cause it feels like you're calling me out again.

Mermut
10-22-2018, 07:29 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Gillymann"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Gillymann said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6525495#post-6525495" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Are you calling me out again? Cause it feels like you're calling me out again.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>If the shoe fits.... <img src="/images/smilies/tongue.gif" alt="Tongue" /><br />In all seriousness though, players who care about numbers and stats care about them just as much on their healers as on their dps. I'm sure we can all imagine the up-roar that would happen if dps arts got the same treatment heals are getting in heroics/raids on beta right now <img src="/images/smilies/frown.gif" alt="Frown" />... and not just the nerf, but the totally hidden and non-uniform way that it is implimented.

Gillymann
10-22-2018, 07:32 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Mermut"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Mermut said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6525498#post-6525498" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">If the shoe fits.... <img src="/images/smilies/tongue.gif" alt="Tongue" /><br />In all seriousness though, players who care about numbers and stats care about them just as much on their healers as on their dps. I'm sure we can all imagine the up-roar that would happen if dps arts got the same treatment heals are getting in heroics/raids on beta right now <img src="/images/smilies/frown.gif" alt="Frown" /></span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>I can see it now....a hidden debuff and hard cap mechanic on damage.<br /> <br />Mayhem!

Mermut
10-22-2018, 07:40 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Gillymann"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Gillymann said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6525500#post-6525500" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I can see it now....a hidden debuff and hard cap mechanic on damage.<br /> <br />Mayhem!</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>They seem to have removed the hard cap... or at least raised it.. but we don't really know.

Daalilama
10-26-2018, 05:28 AM
This does not bode well for healers...finally got the xpac due to juggling finances however from speaking with healers across the community directly I'm wondering why I even bothered again...seriously this big of a change nerf whatever you call it needs again healer community input from across the board not just a chosen few and again we are always asked to deal with major mechanics changes with little to no input let alone major suggestions minor tossing of bones not withstanding. And let's try and be honest test/beta are not true representations of live and mechanics changes on them tend to bork out when they hit live (don't believe me I could refresh everyone's memory on the war-field guardians dr buff that wasn't there but was). Hiding a zone debuff to heals seriously.

Earar
10-26-2018, 02:11 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Mermut"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Mermut said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6525007#post-6525007" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Chaotic Leech doesn't affect dps at all.. it is 100% a healing/healer debuff</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>well dps has its own debuff<br /> <br />pot mitigation, combat mitigation, and so on<br /> <br /> <br />though I'd prefer my heals to be lower all the time but constent than having debuff on zones.<br /> <br />If I can manage to heal in a heroic zone with debuffs, it means I'd have no issue in solo/outdoor to heal either. so why not just lower everything at the base ?<br /> <br />that's just what I don't get

Mermut
10-26-2018, 05:06 PM
The dps<br /><div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Earar"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Earar said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6526269#post-6526269" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">well dps has its own debuff<br /> <br />pot mitigation, combat mitigation, and so on<br /> <br /> <br />though I'd prefer my heals to be lower all the time but constent than having debuff on zones.<br /> <br />If I can manage to heal in a heroic zone with debuffs, it means I'd have no issue in solo/outdoor to heal either. so why not just lower everything at the base ?<br /> <br />that's just what I don't get</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>The dps 'hurdles' are mostly visible to players... and they don't target specific spells (and perhaps specific classes?) harder then others. The healing debuff isn't uniform.<br />Some simple tests (mostly with wards, because they always land for the same amount and we can see how much they land for, not just how much they heal for) shows that different arts on the same class aren't debuffed by the same mount for the same class.. and the amount of debuff also seems to be different between different healer classes.<br /> <br />I admit I'm perplexed why they further 'debuff' healers in harder content.. since the mobs already hit harder in harder content. So, literally, as the mobs hit people harder, the healers tools get WORSE. <img src="/images/smilies/frown.gif" alt="Frown" />

Gillymann
10-26-2018, 05:50 PM
There is an old adage that (supposedly) Black and Decker used to drum into it's employees:<br /> <br />"People aren't really buying the drill, they are buying the hole in the wall."<br /> <br />The current revenue model kind of implies DBG understands this very well. But then on the other hand, stuff like this healing debuff (and other stuff that has been done) leads me to believe otherwise.<br /> <br />Confusing really.

Cunning
10-26-2018, 06:58 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Mermut"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Mermut said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6526295#post-6526295" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">...<br /><br />I admit I'm perplexed why they further 'debuff' healers in harder content.. since the mobs already hit harder in harder content. So, literally, as the mobs hit people harder, the healers tools get WORSE. <img src="/images/smilies/frown.gif" alt="Frown" /></span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Isn't this just the same as the way the avoidance buff package on the mobs gets tougher on later content? You're expected to have to have better gear and/or make better use of your character. Just like it takes more to dps well on later content, they want it to take more to heal... It's really the only straight forward part about this. In theory it also means they don't need to ramp up damage to one shot levels if they just make us do more work to get people back to green.<br /><br />It's mostly the fact that we are casting in the dark that is bugging me. Can't constructively comment on a hidden mechanic. For instance, is it reducing more on regenerating wards vs static? Does it change with the level or tier of spell? Are AA abilities treated the same? How much will gear upgrades actually help us overcome this thing?<br /><br />Really would just like more information...

Mermut
10-26-2018, 07:13 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Cunning"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Cunning said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6526353#post-6526353" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Isn't this just the same as the way the avoidance buff package on the mobs gets tougher on later content? You're expected to have to have better gear and/or make better use of your character. Just like it takes more to dps well on later content, they want it to take more to heal... It's really the only straight forward part about this. In theory it also means they don't need to ramp up damage to one shot levels if they just make us do more work to get people back to green.<br /> <br />It's mostly the fact that we are casting in the dark that is bugging me. Can't constructively comment on a hidden mechanic. For instance, is it reducing more on regenerating wards vs static? Does it change with the level or tier of spell? Are AA abilities treated the same? How much will gear upgrades actually help us overcome this thing?<br /> <br />Really would just like more information...</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>The problem with that is that dps DOES go up as content gets harder... with the increasing healing debuff... it seems like they're trying to keep healing flat while the incoming damage continues to go UP...<br />So healers will, effectively never get increases in their healing for their new content.<br />The rough numbers I've got form limited testing is that the difference between the t1 and t2 herioc debuff is 5-7%<br />So healers need an overall increase in gear of that much just to stay even on their heals.. and that doesn't take into account the increased incoming damage between the tiers.<br /> <br />I get the impression that the devs have some idea of how they 'want' healers to be played in order to be effective. But they haven't shared that vision with us.. and I don't think they have a good feel for how healers HAVE been played in recent expac.. so they don't know how much of a change their idea may or may not to how healing has worked for years. So, at the same time they seem to be trying to push 2 healers per group, they're also making big changes to how healers have to play in order to be effective that is a big enough change to how they've been played most effectively to make healing less effective to many 'current' healers.<br />That's a bad combo... wanting more healers while at the same time making healing... less attractive...

Gillymann
10-26-2018, 10:03 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Mermut"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Mermut said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6526374#post-6526374" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">True.. if you have the gear to survive the harder content, your dps goes up. Unfortunately that's not how it seems to be working with healers... having enough gear to survive (ie enough resolve) doesn't mean the healers heals are going to go up.. even while the mobs ARE hitting harder. I confess I can't even begin to understand why that concept seems like a good idea to anybody <img src="/images/smilies/frown.gif" alt="Frown" /></span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>So....<br /> <br />The remedy to this more punishing debuff would be.......greater potency/crit bonus??<br /> <br />/confused

Mermut
10-26-2018, 10:39 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Gillymann"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Gillymann said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6526389#post-6526389" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">So....<br /> <br />The remedy to this more punishing debuff would be.......greater potency/crit bonus??<br /> <br />/confused</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>We don't have any information how the debuff actually works or even it's actual debuff numbers. Consequently it is extremely difficult to figure out what we can do to overcome it. Unfortunately, I'm beginning to think that is <i>one</i> of the reasons they're hiding the information from us. Unlike the dps 'debuff' of planar defense (where the numbers are given so dps can meet the goals) the devs don't WANT healers to 'mitigate' the debuff.. they want us to just 'deal with it'.<br /> <br />At a guess, part of the strategy to slow players down this expac has moved form lowering dps to making it... harder... to heal.

Daalilama
10-27-2018, 12:20 AM
Well let's be honest the last dev i was aware of that actually played a healer full time (<b>Their players too you know...or so we have all been told</b>) was back during Sentinels Fate...oh they played around with the channelers when they came out for bit but that passed....hense the reason I brought it up...<b>The devs do not play healers</b> no healer worth their salt would ever consider what is coming via mechanics changes is good. I know I probably have burned quite a few bridges with the devs staff with regards to my comments (I have always been friendly and respectful with them in the past) but my responsibility is not to either the devs or tanks/dps classes my responsibility is to the healer community and for those that do not have a chance to speak out on how these changes will affect them going forward.

Cunning
10-27-2018, 08:02 AM
Dps doesn't go up as content gets harder. It's goes up with gear. The same toon can do more on lower content. You have gear past it. I may not like it. And I question the implementation, but it is the same concept. Same gear less effective on harder fights. The fact that we get double the hit isn't ideal, but it's still the same result. You need to have better gear/spells for higher tiers.

Mermut
10-27-2018, 08:22 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Cunning"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Cunning said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6526370#post-6526370" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Dps doesn't go up as content gets harder. It's goes up with gear. The same toon can do more on lower content. You have gear past it. I may not like it. And I question the implementation, but it is the same concept. Same gear less effective on harder fights. The fact that we get double the hit isn't ideal, but it's still the same result. You need to have better gear/spells for higher tiers.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>True.. if you have the gear to survive the harder content, your dps goes up. Unfortunately that's not how it seems to be working with healers... having enough gear to survive (ie enough resolve) doesn't mean the healers heals are going to go up.. even while the mobs ARE hitting harder. I confess I can't even begin to understand why that concept seems like a good idea to anybody <img src="/images/smilies/frown.gif" alt="Frown" />

Catterinna
10-30-2018, 09:11 AM
sorry, what class do you play @daalilama? just wondering

Meneltel
10-31-2018, 06:55 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Gillymann"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Gillymann said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6526389#post-6526389" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">So....<br /> <br />The remedy to this more punishing debuff would be.......greater potency/crit bonus??<br /> <br />/confused</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>The remedy is to pay to get your healer merc to level 20 so it can heal while the ex-healer player either quits or rerolls as dps. Seems like what DBG wants to happen.

Mermut
10-31-2018, 06:58 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Meneltel"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Meneltel said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6527076#post-6527076" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">The remedy is to pay to get your healer merc to level 20 so it can heal while the ex-healer player either quits or rerolls as dps. Seems like what DBG wants to happen.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>That will be 'fun' with the various 'cure or bad things happen' and the other 'DON'T cure or bad things happen' dets <img src="/images/smilies/wink.gif" alt="Wink" />

Gillymann
10-31-2018, 07:04 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Mermut"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Mermut said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6527077#post-6527077" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">That will be 'fun' with the various 'cure or bad things happen' and the other 'DON'T cure or bad things happen' dets <img src="/images/smilies/wink.gif" alt="Wink" /></span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Not to mention the random afk mechanics mercs have.

Earar
11-02-2018, 01:53 PM
mercs too have to go to small room !!