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View Full Version : SHADOWKNIGHT Improvements..


YummiOger
12-22-2004, 04:08 AM
<DIV>Ok Guys. Now that that awful thread started by that Druid (? huh?) is calmed down, Lets ALL look at some ways to Improve the SK class, But still keep it within reason.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please only post CONSTRUCTIVE info here, and lets not let this get in the gutter <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, here is what I have seen as Known Problems (correct me if im wrong plz).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1). Aggro Control: I know that the Bezerkers are bugged and that Several Group Mob encounters reset all Aggro Lists when one dies (Ex. Owlbears and stuff in RE) and our Hier Lv tuants are Spells which are resisted alot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2). Weapon Selection: I have heard many SKs (including myself) complain about having a very limited weapon selection.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Skelly form is Broken ( Does nothing)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) Others?...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is what I would be happy about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Make our AoE Spell Tuants Unresistable or increase Component Hate for the Spells or Give us a New tuant ability at 22ish? I think the Aggro as a whole needs to be reworked for all classes personally <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> .. FIX Bezerkers and List Resets!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Would be happy with Great Spears ( Lances )  and 2 handed Axes. Tower Shields would be Nice ( but ya right! LOL ) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) FIX Skelly form</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) Graven Embrace seems to have alot of Potential, But the 10 Sec duration is no good. Why not give it a longer duration But put a Buff icon on it to be clicked off to break GE, or /stand to break it like in (GASP!) EQ1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>KK there you go Folks. Happy Posting <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and Good Hunting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yummy </DIV> <DIV>Faydark</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Adonae_Perpet
12-22-2004, 05:02 AM
1. General aggro isn't too far from where it should be, imo - but making taunts unresistable (or failing that, give them a negative check modifier) would seem to be reasonable.2. With the departure from class-specific equipment, limiting classes to specific types of gear is unfortunately necessary. I would very much like to see a greater variety available to us, but there may be a balance issue inherent to the selection limitations that's in place for a reason.3. I'd give every other problem that actually makes any difference in the game precedence over a graphic problem, but yes - it is nonetheless an issue.4. (Graven Embrace) This isn't meant to be used the way that EQ1 FD was, as it's designed to be used to drop someone off the hate list it could just as well have a 1sec duration and function equally well (then again, EQ1 FD wasn't designed to do what it did.. *shrug*).---Others:1. Decrepit Slam should require a shield to use, it presently does not.2. FD needs it's group-only flag turned back on. As much fun as it's been, there's people out there causing problems with it.3. While I understand that scouts are intended to be just that, I miss the independance that was allowed to EQ1 SKs... Whether it be through the re-tuning of GE, the revival of SK invisibility (I miss my CoS = ), or the inclusion of utility spells like DMF, I really enjoyed being able to go pretty much anywhere I chose with (relative) impunity.4. Lifetaps. Again, old mentality here, I understand that this isn't supposed to be a clone of an EQ1 SK, but I miss having effective lifetaps (at 29, I can't say I'm terribly impressed with a 50hp heal...). Perhaps bringing back the DoT-Lifetap line from EQ1 would help add diversity without requiring major re-tuning of existing spells?These last bits here are just top-of-my-head thoughts, my apologies if I've missed anything important.

Trystwy
12-22-2004, 03:00 PM
<DIV>Invisibility and lifetaps would be useful (esp lifetaps) but since we have some useful wards (DoF - use it all the time) and buffs I can't see that happening and the invisibility thing might tred too much on the toes of the rogue classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd like to see the bug fixed which makes some shadowknights (my own included) float a foot above the Unholy Steed rather than sit on it....and it would be nice if the Unholy Steed became a little more graphically unholy, rather than a brown carthorse...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also HT needs sharper teeth, should be an instant death knell for whatever mob its cast on - currently its more Harm Tickle than Harm Touch and on such a long retimer its not worth casting really.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Generally I'd like to see Taunts being made more effective, esp as someone mentioned prior, the AoE one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

HowlerMcgr
12-22-2004, 03:09 PM
was doing some test last night with "Decree of Decay", it appears Decree of Decay's Taunt effect doesnt effects Mezzed mobs, over and over i taunted and only the mobs that werent mezzed would get the taunts visual effect.It also has a limited range on its taunt, make sure all the mobs are close to your current target when taunting, or they will be outside the range.

Coercit
12-22-2004, 03:17 PM
Be sure others will bring the "overpowered" argue if we get some better lifetaping ability. I admit 50 hp at lvl 29 is a joke but it is still much better than nothing. Maybe some enhancement of this spell should be enought (let's say 75 to 100 hp at lvl 30 ?).Graven Embrace needs to be looked at. Nowadays, we can force some MT to FD while fighting, which of course may cause group wipe. For the most part of us, we wouldn't even do this but we're not all that nice to never do so. This isn't some exploit or whatever, this is actually a feature. Problem is this feature may be used to bother ppl.Weapon arsenal is far beyond any kind of logic to me, not only being limited to swords or hammer is plain stupid but there is no reason, RP or balancing, to do so. All best weapons at a said tier are somewhat equivalent, all is matter of choice, so why limiting it ? I know Paladins shouldn't be able to use Axes but we're not Paladins, we are meant to be the worst possible kind of combattant (I mean we're suppose to be only lead by our need to obliterate our foes, not to respect any form of rule like not using dual weapons or Axes). Allowing us to use weapons Paladins can't use should have some counterpart, of course.Most of our spells are simply broken or useless (how many spells do you really use frequently ? I don't think I use the third of them that often). Main problem isn't the aim of the spell, it is just because spell either doesn't work at all, is much too long to cast / recover or simply costs way too much power for a pathetic effect. I don't think we're alone on this boat btw, patience seems to be the key but we need to send some feedback to designers about that.All classes also need some correspondant to deal directly with SOE, like in SWG. This is VERY important because without this kind of communication, every idea is just some whine drop in the ocean of complaints...I would also like to be able to choose my armor color, we all sound like some clones...hell, even an inquisitor/templar can wear the exact same equipment than us (if we use Hammers). Allow us to choose between class specific colors.I prefer not even mention our steed, this is the main grief subject on this board, balance seem to only be a matter of "fun" spell. But there are many things to say about this one.There are surely many other things to say but I can't figure what for the moment...

Xek
12-22-2004, 04:33 PM
You're only partly right Coercitas. Yes we are not Paladins, yes we are evil but does that mean we would/should lower ourselves to the level of warriors or brawlers? Of course not. We are knights, they are trash.But I see no reason why we can't use great spears and tower shields. It's not like our spells give us any real advantage over the other fighter classes. Their combat arts are just as useful to themselves and the group as our spells are. Our dps is also ridiculous compared to theirs. I would understand our limited shield and weapon selection if our spells actually made us much more powerful than they are but it isn't the case.I think not allowing us to dual wield, use axes, bows/throwing weapons and one handed piercing weapons is enough.<p>Message Edited by Xekrn on <span class=date_text>12-22-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:34 AM</span>

YummiOger
12-22-2004, 05:27 PM
<DIV>YES! I resoundingly Agree Xekrn! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is the Difference between a SK with 5 spells + 10 abilities that use power and a Warrior with 15 Abilities that use power?</DIV> <DIV> Nothing as far as Spells / abilities go <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> .. still 15 things that use power for both. </DIV> <DIV>Only Diff is the SK has lower DPS vs Dual weild warrior and Lower AC Vs Tower Shield.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The addidtion of Great Spear ( I can see a Evil SK poking people on the ground just to hear them scream) and Tower Shield would be a Great improvment in out class a whole. AND while the topic of Pallies are up, I too can see them useing Great Spear ( RPing Lance) and Tower shield. To be absolutely Honest, SKs and Pallies should be totally even to each other in one way or the other.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let the Warrior have the Dual weild axes and daggers and More HPs and slightly better aggro control, i would just be happy with better weapon selection and sheilds. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Happy hunting guys <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yummy </DIV> <DIV>Faydark</DIV>

YummiOger
12-22-2004, 05:30 PM
<DIV>BTW, Was it ever hashed out if it was WISDOM or INT that increase our Power (mana) pool?..</DIV>

Trixst
12-22-2004, 08:04 PM
<DIV>Time to fix a few misinterpretations from fellow shadowknights:</DIV> <DIV>1 - YummiOger: Graven Embrace is meant as temporary aggro removal from yourself and/or a group member.  The 10 second duration is as it should be.  Any longer and it starts becoming too powerful of a tool that allows a group member to just nuke away until he gets aggro and then you just have to Graven Embrace that member to save his life.  There would be an imbalance if they did this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2 - Trystwych: Harm Touch does not need sharper teeth.  It is made so that you can add 300+ instant dmg every 30 mins.  If they did as you asked and increased the damage, it would allow a group of shadowknights to walk around and simply Harm Touch mobs for instant EXP which would be an imbalance.  If they raise the dmg, they would have to raise the recast time and would also have to worry about the possibility of instant killing monsters (which would be a balance issue since no other class can instant kill mobs either).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3 - HowlerMcgraw: That is exactly how the spell is intended.  If Decree of Decay taunted all mobs, then the enchanter would get mad at you as you would wake up monsters all the time.  The same applies to a regular taunt against a mezzed mob (it doesn't work).  You first have to hit it to wake it up and then taunt it. As an example, are you really taunting me if I'm in a daze?  Do you think I'd get mad at you for making funny faces at me while I was sleeping?  So first you have to wake me up.. and once you do, I'm mad at the person who put me to sleep and you have to make funny faces at me to [Removed for Content] me off so I go towards you instead. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4 - Coercitas: Most spells are not useless.  We are fighters.. not casters.  Our abilities are meant to enhance our fighting and as such, they do what they are intended.  We also have a few group saving abilities: If someone steals aggro, we can cast Demonstration of Faith on him to prevent damage or if death is imminent, we can also use Graven Embrace to reduce their aggro and gain some of our own.  The other thing people are currently overlooking is the ability to use Heroic Opportunities in their groups.  By having limited abilities that you spam, it makes it easier to complete a Heroic Opportunity.  If every ability we had could be spammed, no one would ever be able to complete a Heroic Opportunity in a group as there would be no reason to do so.  What everyone needs to learn is that to win a fight, you need to use what's available to you effectively.  Learn which abilities give the most damage for the least power and spam those but only use the other abilities when necessary.  If it's a weak mob, be power efficient and use less Righteous Blow (high power cost) and use more Righteous Anger (low power cost) and Faithful Swing (well, if you're in your teens / low twenties) <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  As for the lifetap, I'm not quite sure if raising it all that much more would be a good idea.  Perhaps it could scale based on our level if it doesn't already but to increase its effectiveness would reduce the need for a healer as we could lifetap / Demonstration of Faith.  Where would the challenge in the game be at that point?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I do believe could use some fine tuning at this point (sorry.. still in low 20s so I can't comment on higher levels yet) is the graphic improvement of the unholy steed.  I've had people laugh at my dwarven shadowknight and his "pony" and I can only agree with them at how pathetic it looks.  It does not instill the fear of a shadowknight in the least bit.  However, being that it's not a gaming issue and more of a perk, I can wait.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also believe that Paladins / Shadowknights should have the ability to wield a tower shield and lances.  I don't agree with the use of axes but that's just a personal opinion.  Although if granted the use of tower shields, it may affect class balance with warriors so I'd be curious to hear a warrior's opinion on this first.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guln</DIV> <DIV>22 Dwarven Shadowknight</DIV> <DIV>Mistmoore Server</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Trixster on <span class=date_text>12-22-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:51 AM</span>

PhAt
12-22-2004, 08:44 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Coercitas wrote:<BR>Be sure others will bring the "overpowered" argue if we get some better lifetaping ability. I admit 50 hp at lvl 29 is a joke but it is still much better than nothing. Maybe some enhancement of this spell should be enought (let's say 75 to 100 hp at lvl 30 ?).<BR><BR>Graven Embrace needs to be looked at. Nowadays, we can force some MT to FD while fighting, which of course may cause group wipe. For the most part of us, we wouldn't even do this but we're not all that nice to never do so. This isn't some exploit or whatever, this is actually a feature. Problem is this feature may be used to bother ppl.<BR><BR>Weapon arsenal is far beyond any kind of logic to me, not only being limited to swords or hammer is plain stupid but there is no reason, RP or balancing, to do so. All best weapons at a said tier are somewhat equivalent, all is matter of choice, so why limiting it ? I know Paladins shouldn't be able to use Axes but we're not Paladins, we are meant to be the worst possible kind of combattant (I mean we're suppose to be only lead by our need to obliterate our foes, not to respect any form of rule like not using dual weapons or Axes). Allowing us to use weapons Paladins can't use should have some counterpart, of course.<BR><BR>Most of our spells are simply broken or useless (how many spells do you really use frequently ? I don't think I use the third of them that often). Main problem isn't the aim of the spell, it is just because spell either doesn't work at all, is much too long to cast / recover or simply costs way too much power for a pathetic effect. I don't think we're alone on this boat btw, patience seems to be the key but we need to send some feedback to designers about that.<BR><BR>All classes also need some correspondant to deal directly with SOE, like in SWG. This is VERY important because without this kind of communication, every idea is just some whine drop in the ocean of complaints...<BR><BR><BR>I would also like to be able to choose my armor color, we all sound like some clones...hell, even an inquisitor/templar can wear the exact same equipment than us (if we use Hammers). Allow us to choose between class specific colors.<BR><BR>I prefer not even mention our steed, this is the main grief subject on this board, balance seem to only be a matter of "fun" spell. But there are many things to say about this one.<BR><BR><BR>There are surely many other things to say but I can't figure what for the moment...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <P>With regard to our lifetaps, I personally can't comment because Im only 21 SK at the moment but, 50hps at lvl 30 sounds way too low to me. WIth my bruiser at lvl 20 ive used "Ignore Pain" for up to 128hps and the reuse timer is 90secs. Not sure of reuse on SK lifetaps so someone let me know if the 50hps tap is balanced based on the reuse time.</P> <P> </P> <P>I realize how "Graven Embrace" is supposed to work but, I personally feel the time should be more than 10 secs.</P> <P> </P> <P>Aggree with most other posters on being able to use more weaps... 2H axes and Polearms/Lances would be very nice </P> <P> </P> <P>I havnt seen this posted on yet in this thread so here goes. I am ok with not being able to use a "Bow" (Like my SK in EQ1 could) BUT, I really would like to have the ability to equip an item there that the other advanced fighter classes can. The way it is now these classes have an extra slot for stats/bonuses. </P> <P> </P> <P>PhAtAl</P>

Bylb
12-22-2004, 08:46 PM
<DIV>a few spell coming up to mind :</DIV> <DIV> * draw strengh is broke and do nothing</DIV> <DIV> * the lvl 37 group buff doesn't give lifetap to the group</DIV> <DIV> * the rune (infernal something?) doesn't give a lifetap</DIV> <DIV> * sorrow?(or perhaps another AE with 2hand) doesn't do area of effet dmg only single target</DIV> <DIV> * lucan's pact no skelly form</DIV> <DIV> * ....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Around 1/4 of the SK spell i experienced since lvl 20 are not working correctly or not working at all, that's a little too much to be ignored, fully knowing that due to the lack of high lvl testing in beta i will see many more really soon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Server down, sorry for the lack of names on spells.</DIV>

Sylunehea
12-22-2004, 08:47 PM
<DIV>My only 2 pet peeves at this time are!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Weapon selection just like alot of people posting here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) This is really just a graphic peeve, but can we please get some kind of spell effect that lets us know when Tainted Caress fires giving us a stone? I am really tired of /togglebags every single fight cause in all the battle spam i miss the small line in the combat text that says</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"You writhe in agony"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If there were some kind of "drawing" effect when it fired or even just a flash or something that gives a graphic indication that we indeed did receive a "Tainted essence" in our bag i would be very very happy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Syl</DIV>

Trixst
12-22-2004, 09:18 PM
<DIV>Syluneheart: Although I agree with you that a graphic showing that the effect has taken place would be nice, I would recommend setting up a second chat window where you can separate essential text from non-essential text while we wait for this to possibly be implemented.  I would also recommend removing any non-essential combat text that you don't really care to see.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for myself, this is how I have it setup:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have enabled visible damage indicators above mobs so that I can see how much dmg it is taking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Chat #1: Combat text</DIV> <DIV>-Disable all melee hits/miss text</DIV> <DIV>-Enable Monster spell casting text</DIV> <DIV>-Enable Group spell casting text</DIV> <DIV>-Disable self spell casting text</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Chat #2: Chat / Essential text</DIV> <DIV>-Enable Tell text</DIV> <DIV>-Enable Group text</DIV> <DIV>-Enable Guild text</DIV> <DIV>-Enable Heroic Opportunity text</DIV> <DIV>-Enable Treasure text</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then I would just add whichever chat text that shows the "You write in agony" in the Chat/Essential window.  I'm not sure exactly which one it would be but I'm sure that after a few tries, you could figure it out.  I'll give it a shot when I get home later tonight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Trixster on <span class=date_text>12-22-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:23 AM</span>

Murfer
12-22-2004, 11:10 PM
<DIV>Bout time.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

Anash
12-23-2004, 12:51 AM
<DIV align=left>I would like to see more spell effects, seems most of all our spells share the exact same graphic.</DIV> <DIV align=left>There is not much to improve for the ShadowKnights, I think our class rocks, there are several bugs that need fixed, but our class in a whole is totally awesome.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>Like someone else said we are Knights, no meatshields, we use our mind and our brawn to fight, i'll take my several DDs and DoT and AoEs over a bunch of axes and spears anyday.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left>ShadowKnight bugs :</DIV> <DIV align=left>Decrepit Slam : Can use without a shield.</DIV> <DIV align=left>Sorrow : Can use with a 1hand weapon, also doesn't do AoE disease, just to target.</DIV> <DIV align=left>Harm Touch : still being resisted, my adept 3 version is anyways... very annoying.</DIV> <DIV align=left>Lucan's Pact : no undead form.</DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV> <DIV align=left> </DIV>

YummiOger
12-23-2004, 07:39 PM
<DIV>BAH ,, That Druid showed up here too!!! I personally think he is in love with the SK class .. just too prideful to say it !! :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do the Devs read this stuff?. Cuz there are alot of wonderful suggestions and Bugs to fix <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yummi </DIV> <DIV>Faydark</DIV>

lilchipp
12-23-2004, 08:06 PM
my gripes the horse instills about as much fear as a wet lettuce harm touch can be resisted, for the actual dmg it does and the timer its on i find this can be really annoying and a waste of a very powerful spell would like this to be unresistablehigh level taunts appear to be broke the devs should look into thiswishlistmore HP (but im only 25 and my ac is only 1200 so maybe the fault is mine but i seem to take quite alot of dmg in a grp sometimes maybe im just gettin whacked with multiple specials too often)more wep choice thats it the class is fantastic as far as im concerned

StargazeOblivion
12-23-2004, 08:40 PM
<DIV>lilchipper, as for your AC you might want to look into some equipment upgrades perhaps. I'm level 25 as well and my unbuffed AC with a shield is just under 1500. (Full set of quest armor, and mostly pristine fashioned jewelry at the moment.) So we can work on AC easy enough, heh.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I agree completely with more weapon choices and something more unique for us weapon/armor-wise. I mean, Vanguard armor used to be a Guardian/SK/Paly only thing but we know that's not the case anymore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And an unresistable HT would be nice. It gets resisted quite often it seems. Can Lay on Hands get resisted if a Paladin needs to heal? :smileytongue:</DIV>

WuphonsReach
12-24-2004, 12:05 AM
The devs *might* read this thread. For a little light reading in the privy. (Okay, that's too harsh, let me rephrase. /grin)Talking about improvements / fixes on the boards is good to drum up ideas, turn ideas over and examine them and improve the ideas. However, until you submit <b>/feedback</b> or <b>/bug</b> reports in the game, you will almost certainly never see those changes happen. (Even then, you have to realize that things may not change and you need to accept it for what it is. "It is what it is until the devs change it" is my mantra that I chant every time I submit a new /feedback.)Be clear and concise in your /feedback. Try and explain what the realistic pro/cons of the change might be on your class and other classes. Don't make unrealistic demands or throw a temper tantrum in the /feedback. Putting the wind up the dev's backs is not a good way to get your ideas considered in a fair manner. Don't spam the devs over the same issue (you will basically get ignored and ruin the chance that your suggestion will be heard). Submit an idea *once* and then leave it be.(I probably send in about a dozen /feedback and /bug reports each week.)Now, for my wish list:- Taunt/Inflame/etc. I would like for it to do triple or quadruple aggro, but only if I use it when I'm *not* at the top of the hate list for that mob. I group with a very good rogue, who's good about aggro, but at 26, once it turns towards him at the end of a fight there's no way that even my adept version of Inflame will pull the mob back to me. So I resort to either using wards on the rogue, or GE/Rescue.By boosting Taunt/Inflame spells in this manner (where they basically don't do much if you're already at the top of the hate list), it makes it more worthwhile to *not* spam them during the fight, but instead save them for a "rainy day" after the initial pull.- Rescue should have a 5 minute timer instead of 30 minutes, which would match the timer on Graven Embrace. Rescue is the closest thing to an EQ1 taunt that we have. But just like taunt in EQ1, it's not guaranteed to work unless we're doing 95% of our job correctly.I don't mind having the risk of losing aggro, even if your group is finely tuned and very good about aggro management. I don't want "aggro lock" like SKs had in EQ1 where you could basically turn your back on the mob and merely cast a single aggro spell. However, I am a bit frustrated that when I do lose aggro, it's extremely difficult (as in I fail 8 out of 10 times) to get aggro back.(For AC information, look for the AC thread where the 25-26 level SKs were posting AC numbers.)

Trixst
12-24-2004, 12:49 AM
<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>WuphonsReach:</P> <P>Not sure if you already knew or not but the way Taunt/Inflame work in EQ2 is that it adds a fixed amount of hate onto the mob that you use the ability on.  So, even though you taunt a monster, you are not guaranteed to regain aggro unless your hate level surpasses the most hated group member.  If that group member continues to use abilities that add hate, you have to work that much harder to become the mob's enemy #1.</P> <P>So if your rogue friend uses an ability that has a high hate addition, you may need to taunt twice or possibly use a combination of hate increasing skills to regain the "king of the hate list" award.   Not sure if he's already doing this or not but make sure he stops fighting when he gains aggro.  This way, he's not adding to the hate list and is allowing you to catch up and surpass him.  The change you are proposing would involve a revamp of how the ability is used and would simply mean that you taunt less in a fight and use other abilities more.  That definately is a playstyle preference but personally, I prefer the way it is now as it gives me more to do while I'm in a fight.  I have to use some strategy in deciding how often to taunt to maintain aggro versus saving the power for other abilities.  With your change, I would pretty much just wait for someone to gain aggro and then taunt.. then wait for someone to gain aggro and then taunt.  Doesn't feel as strategic to me (again.. playstyle difference is what I think it is here).</P> <P>-Rescue I'm not as sure about.  I don't have that ability yet so I can't quite comment on it but if it's reduced to 5 mins, it means we now have the ability to save 2 members every 5 mins.   Although at 30 mins, that does seem a little long for an ability that from what I hear doesn't guarantee to place you on top but has a "chance" to place you on top.  If the ability works as described (once triggered, you are now enemy #1 by 1 hate point) then I could see the timer reduced to 15-20 mins being sufficient.  The way I see it, you shouldn't be saving your teammates every single fight.  You should, however, be able to save them 3 or 4 times per hour. This again comes down to playstyle preference.  I like challenges and if the timer is reduced too much, the challenge is also reduced.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

Baronzz
12-24-2004, 01:18 AM
<DIV>Bravo on the post. Hopefully the devs will look at it.</DIV>

Poena_De
12-24-2004, 01:25 AM
<DIV>I will try to touch on every subject I saw of importance.  First off I should state that I am 33rd level so I have atleast a small glimpse into the mystical "after 30 game" that everyone keeps referring too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1)  Weapon Selection.  As much as I would love for Shadowknights to be able to dual-wield and use axes I think it is a far fetched idea due to the fact that Paladins would have to mirror it for balancing issues and personally I don't think that should or will happen.  I do however believe that Berserkers should be stripped of their Tower shield ability and it should be given to us and that we should be able to use Great spear.  As for the balancing issue for Guardians due to our new ability to use Tower shields theys hould just give them a bonus 5% ac or something similar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2)  Agro Mangement.  Everyone keeps saying that skill is what makes us hold agro and that high level Shadowknights cannot hold agro.  Well from my experience agro is broken in general post 30 for multiple reasons, whether it is by design or by bug I am still not sure.  But I have spoken to a few Guardians that have similar problems.  The only tank that seems to be able to reliably hold agro is Berserker but that is due to a bug that SOE has verified and will "eventually" fix hopefully....  The only real problem I see with Shadowknights and agro is when dealing with red mobs and after 31st level.  Due to the fact that Disease Cloud (level 31 inflame upgrade) does damage and has a disease check we sometimes have problems when tanking anything higher than red.  Since they can resist the damage component they resist the taunt component as well.  I think they should code Disease cloud to where even if the damage part is resisted the taunt component should still be applied.  As for Decree of Decay not working on mezzed mobs.  To my knowledge that is how it's "supposed" to be.  It forces tanks to taunt before they break mez, which is something tanks should be used to from EQ1 anyway.  So in short there really isn't any glaringly large problem with Shadowknights in reference to agro post 30 except for the general brokeness of the system as is.  Because in all honesty you shouldn't be grinding experience on red mobs anyway.  It's much more effecient to slaughter oranges and lower.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3)  Graven Embrace.  I know this isn't EQ1 but the only real changes I would like to see are.  First off make it group only for both griefing and balance issues.  Second make the duration unlimited when cast on self.  I miss my AFK spell!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4)  Skeleton Illusions.  To my knowledge we only have on spell or atleast one spell at 33rd which grants this.  Lucan's pact, please fix the animation component since the rest of it "seems" to be working as intended.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5)  Draw Strength.  The spell does work, it also does generate a decent amount of agro.  The problem lays with how it stacks with the Vigor of Trust line.  When you have your self buff line up you only seem to gain 1 to 3 points of strength depending on if you have Adept, Adept 3, Master or whatever.  They need to recode it to where it stacks on top of our self buff line and then it should be a mighty useful spell.  I still do use it from time to time when I need to pull agro back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6)  Infernal Pact.  To my knowledge everything is working correctly on the spell except for the lifetap component once this is fixed everything should be fine with the spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7)  Sorrow.  In all honesty I don't have much to say about the spell.  Since it is the upgrade to power swing I would imagine that it would be a single target spell but due to the fact that I am always the main tank in my group I don't ever use two handed weapons so I can't say.  Maybe the ability is flagged or marked with the wrong icon?  Once again this is just a guess due to the fact that I never use the ability and more than likely never will.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Harm Touch.  My only real thoughts on the spell is that it should be unresistable, the damage scaling and time frame in which you can use it seem fine to me.  But I really do think that it should always be unresistable.  There is no reason why this should be overpowering due to both it's damage and how many hitpoints most mobs have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>9)  Rescue.  The ability "seems" to do what it is supposed to do but I have some serious issues with it's reuse timer.  I honestly think it should be reduced to a five minute cool down.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>10)  Mana Pool.  We due in fact use wisdom for our manapool.  We are considered fighting clerics for all intents and purposes, hence the name crusader.  We merely choose a darker path than our pansy Paladin cousins.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's all I have to say for now.  I am sorry if it seemed a bit long winded I just wanted to try to offer the best information I could.  If anyone has any questions or advice or just wants to share information feel free either send me a PM.  Or just catch me ingame  I play on the Guk server by the name of Poena.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Poena_Deus on <span class=date_text>12-23-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:29 PM</span>

YummiOger
12-24-2004, 04:03 AM
<DIV>WuphonsReach --</DIV> <DIV>Exellent Post! I personally do not have that much faith in the Devs reading this post ,but they DO (on occasion 8P) read the /BUG and /FEEDBACK. SHould we orginise on what needs to be Mass /BUGed and /FEEDBACKed on?. I think doing this may be the Key to actually getting something done (eventually) Vs. us sitting around here bumping our gums :smileywink: ..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally would do it Every week if it would work. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Apon reviewing all the posts, this is how it stands with People talking about Improvement (times mentioned):</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/BUGs</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>GE (lv 21) - 7 times</DIV> <DIV>HT very resistable (lv 20) - 5 times</DIV></DIV> <DIV>Lucans Pact (Lv 30) - 4 times</DIV> <DIV>Draw Strength (20) - 3 times</DIV> <DIV>Sorrow (29) - 3 times </DIV> <DIV>Decrepit Slam (27) - 2 times</DIV> <DIV>Infernal Pact (26) - 2</DIV> <DIV>Insationable Hunger (37) - 1</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/FEEDBACK</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Weapons and Sheild selection - 11 times (nice)</DIV> <DIV>Aggro Control/Tuants - 8 times</DIV> <DIV>Better life taps - 4</DIV> <DIV>"Rescue" improved - 4</DIV> <DIV>Horse improved - 3</DIV> <DIV>Travel Utility - 2</DIV> <DIV>Spell power Usage- 1</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we will see if the pattern contunues as more SKs post <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Happpy Hunting!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yummy </DIV> <DIV>Faydark</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

tyrinon
12-24-2004, 05:05 AM
<DIV>-reduce the timer on our ae taunt and fix the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] effect, it goes off once for what 5 points damage and its done, [Removed for Content]</DIV> <DIV>-serious lack of weapons, needs to be addressed</DIV> <DIV>-wheres out lifetaps, i mean paladins get heals cmon level the field a bit</DIV> <DIV>-lack of large shields, maybe its just me remembering my paladin from the original eq being the good secondary tank being able to use shields</DIV> <DIV>-Stun timer on stuff like unyielding (shield slam we get, forgot the name) seems a bit short and mobs hit me even with it on them</DIV> <DIV>-lack of invis/shadowstep something that defines us (and yes i remember harmtouch)</DIV> <DIV>-Serious lack of visuals where our spells are concerned and variety, defilers get a neat glowy shadow effect that looks plain cool wheres ours, some kind of lifetap damage shield would be nice to , one that isnt on a 3 second timer</DIV> <DIV>-30 second pets.....dont get me started, considering how hard the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] frags are to get</DIV> <DIV>-no sided shadowknight quests equivilent to qeynos, they get soul reaver,sword of thunder,dwarven sword of cleansing..... we get skullcrusher(there a reason all the good proc weapons are started on the good side?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thats just stuff off the top of my head, theres probably more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Torka
12-24-2004, 02:39 PM
As I didn't play in beta, I'm not sure about this, but did SKs ever have the Great Axe skill? I just completed the Operation Green Hood quest for the access to Deathfist Citidel and at the end, you get a nice weapon. My ranger friend got a nice bow, my fury friend got a nice 1h mace.... I got a great axe called Mammoth. I know the manual says we should be able to use all this stuff, are we actually supposed to and something is messed? Or are quests like this messed and we are getting the wrong reward.

Poena_De
12-24-2004, 07:01 PM
<DIV>More than likely the fighter archetype is just flagged to get a certain reward.  Unfortunately you are playing a Crusader subclass so you don't get to use the fun weapons.  I doubt that we will ever be able to use axes honestly.  I am hoping that one day they will strip berserkers of tower shields and give them to us tho.   If we are really lucky maybe they will let us use great spears also.  Til then we will just have to suck it up and use hammers and swords or some faxsimile of.</DIV>

WuphonsReach
12-24-2004, 08:44 PM
We'll see more weapons appear over time. I'm content with what's in the game, and really don't care about axes / lances. It will take an expansion or two before we have the plethora of weapons that we had in EQ1.I doubt you'll see tower shields take away from zerks. The hue and cry would be overwhelming. What you might see is that zerks get less effect out of them unless they're buffed in a defensive manner. (Or are crusaders the only class that can buff themselves into either an offensive or defensive role?)I highly doubt that HT will ever be made unresistable. You might convince the devs that it needs to be made *less* resistable. But only if you collect statistics on how often it is resisted on yellow and lower level mobs. (Red should be almost 90% resist, orange 50-75% resist, yellow 25% resist, white 5%... green-blue-grey 1%.)From talking to CSRs in petitions about GE... I expect that we'll see that limited to group only in the first patch. (They're *very* aware of the issue, at least, that's how I read between the lines.)The horse model is probably what it will be. Most of my /feedback has been more along the lines of asking for a better model via quest at level 30/40/50. So as we level up, we can slowly upgrade our mounts and get cooler/faster horses.(Oh, and please do *not* spam the developers every week about the same issue. It just gets you ignored. Send a single /feedback and leave it be. Maybe convince other SKs that it's an issue that needs to be /feedback'd, but let them decide what they'll put in the /feedback for themselves. If they see similar ideas from multiple people, which aren't just copy-n-paste jobs, you're more likely to catch the devs attention and get things moved up on the triage list.)

Kulpr
12-24-2004, 11:21 PM
The main issue I would definitely aggree with is our inability to use tower shields. Since we don't get dual wield makes no sense that we can't use the best shields. Also since berserkers do get dual wield makes no sense that they get to use the best shields. In terms of weapons if anything I would like to see us gain the ability to use axes (not spears), but I don't see this as a huge issue.As with most classes several brokens spells and ability's as mentioned above need some work.

beantownk
12-25-2004, 07:29 AM
<DIV>Hello all lvl 33 SK here,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My thoughts up to this point</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Weapon Selection - Not too much i can say here I dont really mind not being able to use certain weapons I just wish there was a greater selection of the weapons i can use. Even if its just looks...for example the big boulder on the end of a stick look is horrible. Even the bland Block hammer ends are boring show me some spikes and stuff on em, something...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2)Agro management - This is where i think the devs will have the hardest time. The reason being is because when you have other class's mainly assasins putting out 1200+ damage every 3rd to 4th hit there has to be a drawback to that. IE the mob turns around and says [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and slaps the assasin silly. My taunts work fine except for when other group members of a diff class hit thier high numbers. The main problem is getting agro off once the mob has felt the sting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3)Graven Embrace - Think its fine the way it is but if it needs to be group only because people abuse it so be it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4)Lucans Pact - It says skelly form I WANT SKELLY FORM other than that its good to go.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5)Draw Strength - Works. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6)Harm Touch - I use it to grab agro back from the assasins/wizzies. Great tool but would be better with a taunt or additional +hate on it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7)Unholy Steed - Joke although we get another at lvl 40 i hear so maybe thats more unholy looking.</DIV>

beantownk
12-25-2004, 07:29 AM
<DIV>Double post sry..</DIV><p>Message Edited by beantownkid on <span class=date_text>12-28-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:27 AM</span>

Justicar333
12-28-2004, 03:04 PM
<DIV>Overall, I don't have a lot of complaints, other than some bug fixes.  I don't know about everyone else, but after that weekend meltdown they had, I like my horse a bit better, maybe I just hadn't noticed over a few levels, but my it's moving a bit more like I expected it too.  Three main things I would like to see changed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  Weapon selection-  I feel that we should have access to more weapons, while Paladins should have access to better shields.  Why the beserkers have gotten access to the best shields I really don't understand.  I truly miss my old EQ Shadow Knight who's signature weapon was a great axe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  Graven Embrace-  I understand that for what they intended, it serves it purpose.  I don't agree with what they intended though.  I like SK's because back in the day, they were a very solable class.  Extend the time to something useful, and make it self use only if necessary for game balance.  We could always use one of the toys from the clerics to rez him after the mob was gone, and this wouldn't allow us to abuse it for camping critters.  Grouping is fine, but in my opinion Paladins should be more group friendly than SK's seeing as we are evil and supposdly more intersted in our own hides.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3.  Harm Touch-  It should either A- be made unresistable or B- have the dmg increased to account for the fact it can be resisted and has a thirty minute timer.  If there is only a chance it will save my butt, at least let me be sure it will if I win the dice toss.  I know a lot of people express concern that groups of SK's will be blasting things into oblivion.  In response, I pose this thought.  Will they really be moving any faster as their group will be so badly balance the other 29 minutes?  I'm fairly certain there is some kinda xp cap in there, so they will be gaining xp more slowly than a balanced party.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is my two cents, other than that just fix the bugs.  We use to be the best class out there, I would like to see that day come again where we are something to be feared and admired.  </DIV>

YummiOger
01-04-2005, 08:00 PM
<DIV>Any Bets on whether they actually will do any of these in that supposed Big Patch comming up in January? ,, Any ETA on that thing anyways?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yummy Izbad</DIV> <DIV>Faydark</DIV>

ReficulFonwaps
01-05-2005, 09:33 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Coercitas wrote:<BR><BR>Graven Embrace needs to be looked at. Nowadays, we can force some MT to FD while fighting, which of course may cause group wipe. For the most part of us, we wouldn't even do this but we're not all that nice to never do so. This isn't some exploit or whatever, this is actually a feature. Problem is this feature may be used to bother ppl.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Are you even a shadowknight?? You can't cast graven embrace on somone in a locked encounter, so how would you FD the MT and cause thier group to wipe? Where did you get this from?</DIV>

ReficulFonwaps
01-05-2005, 10:06 AM
<DIV>I'm about 50/50 on agree/disagree on this thread.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Harm touch will always be resistable and needs to stay that way. Resists are part of what balances the combat system. I seriously doubt harm touch or any other spell/skill will ever be made unresistable, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We definitely need a larger variety of weapons to choose from. And axes would really give us an evil look. I just don't understand the whole hammer thing....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We really need a decent pet. I got my first pet spell and used it about twice before i cleared it from my hotbar. This thing is literally a DoT spell with a pet graphic. A pet control window pops up, but why? If you can only cast the dang thing in combat, and it last a few seconds, then what's the window for? Attack the [Removed for Content] mob already, do they think I wanna make it do tricks or something? Sheesh!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I strongly disagree with increasing taunts, or changing them in any way. Just because some players dont know how to gain and hold aggro is absolutely no reason to change the system. No offense to any of you guys who can't seem to hold aggro, but I'm sure in time you will learn and get better at it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of our taunt abiilities. Seriously.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The undead form on lucans pact really needs to be fixed. I just don't see how the Necro's undead form can work but they can't get SK's to work. Perhaps it will be included in the "big patch"?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Graven Embrace already has an icon so whoever it was cast on can cancel it off, this doesnt need to be fixed as it already works. I could care less if they make it group only or not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The devs could give some feedback and let us know is they read our posts!! They could keep us updated on what they are fixing or changing!! The community reps for SOE could get involved in the forums, keep us in the loop on things. This is a little far fetched tho, it would never work...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Rakn
01-05-2005, 12:45 PM
<blockquote><hr>ReficulFonwaps wrote:<DIV>I strongly disagree with increasing taunts, or changing them in any way. Just because some players dont know how to gain and hold aggro is absolutely no reason to change the system. No offense to any of you guys who can't seem to hold aggro, but I'm sure in time you will learn and get better at it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of our taunt abiilities. Seriously. </DIV><hr></blockquote>the taunts are weak sometimes you will get interupted at the start of a fight on the taunt and if a dps does some insane hit before you can get the taunt off after being interupted its almost impossible to get hate back no matter how much mana you use.there good at holding aggro if you get to use it from the very first few seconds in a fight but stupidly weak at getting hate back, you cant even pass hate between 2 tanks in my experiences even if the MT only uses like 5 skills in the whole fight the mob is almost dead before the second tank using mana like theres no tommorow finally gets its attention.RESCUE is a joke it should not be called RESCUE if it gets resisted the majority of the time even when it doesnt get resisted it doesnt always get enough hate you would think that its suposed to be stupidly more powerful than a normal taunt but it doesnt seem any more effective than Dod + Disease Cloud (yet another taunt with high resist ratio).

strath
01-05-2005, 02:26 PM
<DIV>Ok first off, i havent noticed much problem with harm touch, yes a little weak, but ok recast, its helped me out a few times, but i see people saying they wont improve  the damage so you dont get groups of shadowknights instant killing mobs...well a couple problems with that. First, its usable once every half hour, so that one mob that dies instantly every half hour.although i admit that there is still room for abuse, but the 2nd issue i have is i know wizards in thier 20s that can blast something for 300 , ball of fire i believe . so whats to stop a group of wiards, who dont have that 30 min recast time doing the same t hing?My main issue , other than spell bugs, and pretty much half my spells/abilities seem useless when i really need them, is the fact that our weapon selection is so restricted its not even funny, dual wield oviously issnt for us, i can live without the use of range weapons, tho were the only melee not to get them from what i see. but no spears or 1hand or 2hand axes? We are knights, We are soldiers, We should be able to use these weapons effectively.Knowing what i know now ida never made a shadow, dont get me wrong, i love my shadow, and if there werent so many bugs, oversights and just plain screwups with the "balancing " of the class, i wouldnt be saying this, but just a lot easier to makea gaurdian, get ALL weapon skills, and armor skills, lose a horse, big deal:smileysad:</DIV>

Deadjest
01-05-2005, 07:21 PM
<DIV>Curious here, how on earth did people get the impression that Knights didnt use axe's?  Their use came much into effect as plate armor got heavier and heavier and the sword and even the broad sword became more an more ineffectual against it armor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Being a Knight had nothing to do with weapon choice, it was all based on how you conducted yourself in your honor code, that was all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Knights were VERY well known for their knowledge of many types of weapons, for the most part they were the few that had the money in those times to beable to afford somebody who could teach it if they werent squired off when they were young to some Knight who should have tought him his combat training among other things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zerks using Tower Shields?  I am not sure that even dignify's talking about, it just didnt happen unless you had a more then normal crazy Zerk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for upgrades, some spells do need impovements, and even though this is not EQ the basic logic of what some class are and how they would work should be the same no matter what game you are in.   Paladins heal, Shadow Knights life tap, one can be used for a non selfish act and the other is more inline with a self centered evil fantasy Knight.   The present life Taps even when they do work, don't do the job for the lvl they are at.   Any Combatant that uses a life tap effect is a combatant thats use the  system of attrition to over come his enemies.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Harm Touch has a problem.  This game is a fast pace game compared to EQL and a 30 min timer on HT is not in line with the combat system.   If it was to remain as it is, it should be much harder to resist and with a much bigger bang for its buck.  Or stay the same if the timer was droped to once every 10 mins.   Its all comes down to risk vs reward now matter what we are talking about.  The risk vs reward here is bang vs timing.  Remember, this is NOT EQL, this game is fast paced and the present HT is not in line with that thinking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Agro needs Tweeking, we are not bad at it, just need to be a little more consistant with it.  If a DPS class has to use less of his special attacks so he doesnt gain agro then the DPS class is not being all that he can be which in turns falls back on us.</DIV> <DIV>There is nothing wrong with the DPS getting agro here and there as he goes all out, the problem is we should be able to regain agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is a misconcept, the very idea that the tank should never lose agro and should always have it, that is EQL  thinking and Far Far from reality and somthing that only came about in PC gaming.  The very idea of a mob sticking constantly obeying group tatics is as far fetched as you can get.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for spells that are above my lvl, I will leave that up to those of you  who are there.   Just remember its Risk vs Reward in every concept of these games which translates to bang vs timing, tap vs mob dmg for the your lvl, agro control vs realism/fantasy,  etc, etc, etc . . . .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haruchai</DIV> <DIV>Shadow Knight</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

strath
01-06-2005, 05:37 AM
<DIV>I meant dual wield axes, thats not a knight thing, big mean 2handed axe, you betcha, that should be in there too.</DIV>

Adonae_Perpet
01-06-2005, 05:54 AM
<b>DeadJester</b><i>Harm Touch has a problem. This game is a fast pace game compared to EQL and a 30 min timer on HT is not in line with the combat system. If it was to remain as it is, it should be much harder to resist and with a much bigger bang for its buck. Or stay the same if the timer was droped to once every 10 mins. Its all comes down to risk vs reward now matter what we are talking about. The risk vs reward here is bang vs timing. Remember, this is NOT EQL, this game is fast paced and the present HT is not in line with that thinking</i>Just curious as to what you think is so much more "fast paced" about EQ2 as opposed to EQ1? I've been trying to think of examples, but haven't really come up with anything (entirely possible though, I'm just curious).

ReficulFonwaps
01-06-2005, 07:59 AM
<DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Just chiming in on the aggro issue again.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Raknor:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><EM>the taunts are weak sometimes you will get interupted at the start of a fight on the taunt and if a dps does some insane hit before you can get the taunt off after being interupted its almost impossible to get hate back no matter how much mana you use.<BR>there good at holding aggro if you get to use it from the very first few seconds in a fight but stupidly weak at getting hate back, you cant even pass hate between 2 tanks in my experiences even if the MT only uses like 5 skills in the whole fight the mob is almost dead before the second tank using mana like theres no tommorow finally gets its attention.</EM></DIV> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>This is bad pulling, and bad group strategy. Obviously these particular mobs recquire a different strategy in order for your group to be more effective. rethink your tacticts and adjust to the challenge at hand. Perhaps let someone else pull, then you taunt the mobs...comunicate with your group if you get stunned and cant taunt so they wont do anything excessive and gain aggro.</FONT></P> <P><STRONG></STRONG> </P> <P><STRONG>Deadjester:</STRONG></P> <P><EM>Agro needs Tweeking, we are not bad at it, just need to be a little more consistant with it.  If a DPS class has to use less of his special attacks so he doesnt gain agro then the DPS class is not being all that he can be which in turns falls back on us.</EM><EM>There is nothing wrong with the DPS getting agro here and there as he goes all out, the problem is we should be able to regain agro.</EM></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>DPS classes are not meant to be able to  unload all their damage potential on a mob without getting aggro. If wizzies were able to chain nuke their highest damage spells, or if assasins were able to use all their high damage attacks without fear of pulling aggro off the tank combat would be extremely mindless. Simple buttont pushing without any thought at all. </FONT></P> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>These are elements of the combat system intentially put into the game to add strategy and group tacticts. Make people think a little bit about what they are doing and how to do it better. Really, the game is already easy enough without putting in a button that glues the mobs to you where anyone in the group can do anything they want without fear of death. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <P> </P> <P> </P> <DIV><BR></DIV>

Roukl
01-06-2005, 06:47 PM
<DIV>The lack of a range slot item effectively lowering our potential for more stats is an unfair thing.</DIV> <DIV>We have the weapon selection of pityful size</DIV> <DIV>The inbalance of quests for pallies vs Sk's</DIV> <DIV>HT that does litle more dmg than a good rogue backstab is an insult. Increase the dmg or decrease the timer. Its our get out of jail free card, personally more dmg with a longer timer would be my preference.</DIV> <DIV>Graven embrace needs to either a) have a shorter refresh time or b) have a chose when to stand option. </DIV> <DIV>If we are basically the inverse of pallies we should be able to take what they can give. IE lifetap = same as pally heal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have no problems with any of the agro line of spells provided the group allow me to get some dmg in first before they assist. Only takes one [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] to get trigger happy tho and nothing I do other than GE will save them from having agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Graphics etc are way down my list of priorities. Good mechanics make for a good game. Mostly tho I'm happy with my choice of character. My wife plays a dirge with a whole set of problems of its own , so we are not alone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Justicar333
01-07-2005, 12:42 PM
<DIV>The arugment has been made that SK's shouldn't have HT's dmg increased or it's timer reduced due to the fact a party of use could team up and nuke creatures.  With the timer at current, we could only do this once a half hour.  I was talking to a mage I was in party with last night, and he was talking about a spell he was using.  At App 1, it did 500-800 dmg, and had a 8 second reuse timer.  So, if mages can do this, why do we should ours be nerfed?  The time could be reduced to 10 min or so, and still not remotly encroach on the heavy dps classes. </DIV>

Justicar333
01-07-2005, 12:42 PM
<DIV>Double post</DIV><p>Message Edited by Justicar333 on <span class=date_text>01-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:43 PM</span>

Deadjest
01-07-2005, 05:58 PM
<DIV>Strathas -  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to admit it was very uncommon for a Knight to duel wield but it did happen.   One nasty combo some Knights used was Mace and Flail, hard to learn that style but very effective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adinae_Perpetua -</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have played EQL since it came out in 99.  In EQII, I kill on avg about 3 to 4 times as many mobs in the same time period as I did in EQL.  In rare groups where you just seem to have this nasty combo of really good people, the kill rate is even higher.</DIV> <DIV>Add on top of that, in EQL if your puller got killed, rebuffing him took much longer then it does here and if you had a partial group wipe, then you had a bit of down time for mana recovery just to buff the group and then get the mana back to so you can get back to pulling at a good pace.   Here in EQII power/health recovery is static no matter what lvl you are and you are back into the action in very little lost time.   I have seen in take 10min or so of recovery in EQL and as little as one min in EQII.  That is what I call a massive difference in game pace.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Which is why I don't agree with the HT system here.  HT should not be a steady effect so much as that the group relies on it but it should be of use and in effect where its considered a asset.   Right now I consider it more as a extra button and use it here and there and I get lots of resists for such a slow timer on it and the very limited amount of damage it does.  Which is why I think it should be around every 10 min or maybe even a tad less at the pace I and the groups I play in kill mobs as HT now stands, if it was upgraded to a bigger bang for you buck and VERY hard to resist then it would seem more to be in order of a 25 or 20 min timer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Reficulfonwaps -</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not sure where you are going with your post since you have seemed to have said the same thing I did.  What I was bringing up was the fact that many do seem to think a tank should hold perect agro which is not logical and nor is it conductive to a fun battle where anything can and should happen.  Perfect agro is more akin to wash, rinse, repeat and is for those who lack the ability to change quickly with the eviroment and just want to hit a button and fill up their time at home cause they have nothing better to do instead of a changing dynamic enviroment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My issue is, once a DPS preforms his his class duty and IF he does end up taking agro from me, at my end of the game that is pretty much all she wrote, I am not getting the agro back, and my spells are up to date.   So the DPS class ends up either being a power sponge for the cleric or incoming rez and in some groups that gets people very upset to a unreasonable level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haruchai</DIV> <DIV>Shadow Knight</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>