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View Full Version : Where is the SK outrage thread?


Murfer
12-18-2004, 08:24 AM
<DIV>Granted, I haven't looked too hard, but I'm shocked to not find more threads mentioning how terrible the SK class is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm level 37 Warden, and since level 20, a SK is the least desirable clas to have in my group by far...what makes this harder is that 2 of my good friends are SK's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just can't believe how gangked this class is.... Can't hold aggro, can't dish out damage, can't taunt, can't tank very well, etc... just mind blowing to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please understand, I am not here to razz you guys at all...I support a major rebalancing for you guys as I just think it's terrible to see any class in such bad shape.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But where's the outrage??</DIV>

EDG
12-18-2004, 08:34 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Murferoo wrote:<BR> <DIV>Granted, I haven't looked too hard, but I'm shocked to not find more threads mentioning how terrible the SK class is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm level 37 Warden, and since level 20, a SK is the least desirable clas to have in my group by far...what makes this harder is that 2 of my good friends are SK's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just can't believe how gangked this class is.... Can't hold aggro, can't dish out damage, can't taunt, can't tank very well, etc... just mind blowing to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please understand, I am not here to razz you guys at all...I support a major rebalancing for you guys as I just think it's terrible to see any class in such bad shape.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But where's the outrage??</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I'm having alot of fun with my class... sure, some thing's are broken, but some thing's are broken with every class.  I hold aggro amazingly well, and anyone that's grouped with me knows I play my role as a tank quite well.  I dish out plenty of damage too, with a barrage of spells, and a nice 2-hander.  I have a choice:  Tank or DPS...  and I can switch between the two with just a few clicks...  My taunts work fine, except "rescue", which doesn't seem to do anything.</P> <P>Sure there are some things that need tweaking, but overall, I'm finding my class quite rewarding.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Being a shadowknight isn't about mashing as many keys as you can as quick as you can, it requires tactics, timing and skill to fulfill the role you choose to play, whether it's MT, MA, or DPS. </FONT> As MT, I open with an HO, and never lose aggro.  As MA, I offer buffs, increased AC, damage wards, decent DPS, and MOB debuffs.</FONT></P> <P>Just like every other class in the game, it's not the end-all-be-all.  <FONT color=#ffff00>If you're friends aren't welcome because they have nothing to offer the party, it's their play-style not the class that's gimped.</FONT></FONT></P><p>Message Edited by EDGEY on <span class=date_text>12-17-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:32 PM</span>

Murfer
12-18-2004, 08:41 AM
<DIV>It has nothing to do with their play style at all....my group of around 20 people has been playing together various games and MMO's etc for 5-6 years, all very steady, experienced players...the 2 SK's in question are great players, but their class just stinks....something awful.  The static Bruiser and Zerker are so much more effective than they are it's just awful to watch for the helpless SK's.  I'm the primary healer in these situations so it's very very easy to see the difference between the various fighter classes and it's not just my 2 friends, lol...for their class/level (in their 30's) they have great gear, etc....basically, they have everything they need except the limitations put on them by their chosen class to hold them back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not trying to burst your bubble, and if you want to think your class is just as broken as others, go ahead, but you would be mistaken unfortunately.  You guy's aren't broken...you're a wreck.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE needs to fix SK's and they need to fix em now.</DIV>

vTenebr
12-18-2004, 08:48 AM
er.. I have no problem holding agro. Even if, by fluke (or overnuking) I happen to lose it I can get it back pretty quickly. The ONLY class that can get agro from me is Berzerker, and even the Devs say that they have a bug in their spell group that makes it so they CANNOT lose agro. AT ALL. PERIOD. That doesn't make the Berzerker a superior character, it means they have a bug that helps them, at the moment.No offense to you or your friends, but you're slamming an entire class based on a few people. Play style has a LOT to do with the effectiveness of the SK. I'm sure you'll get a LOT of support here from SKs who whimper and cry about how broken they are (but every class has threads whining in the same manner, in the same way, about being broken), however.. I completely disagree.I've rarely been in a group where I'm *NOT* the main tank. (I think twice, ever) I tank just fine & hold agro quite well, thank you very much. If I'm broken.. none of my groups ever noticed it. Nor have I ever been disregarded or ignored as a candidate for a group based on being an SK.Shame that you'd dismiss people because you "feel" their class is broken.

WuphonsReach
12-18-2004, 09:21 AM
I have yet to encounter a situation where it wasn't possible for me to tank or make a superb support tank.We're not a DPS class, but we're a darn good tank class. Guardians are better, rah rah for them. The few things that are broken are minor, mostly petty issues that the devs are aware of.I enjoy my class and my guildmates enjoy my company and tanking ability and how good I am at thinking on my feet and using every tool at my disposal to assist with situations gone horribly wrong.

Siner
12-18-2004, 09:28 AM
If your friends can't hold aggro, then either they don't know how to play their class or the people pulling aggro don't know how to play their class (or a combination of the two). To echo the sentiments above I am almost always the MT and I rarely loose aggro. Pull with Grim coil (or righteous anger), smack a Inflame or Decree of Decay (depending if group or single pull), pop 2 damage moves, use regular taunt, pop 2 damage moves, use regular taunt, (if i am lop, just use regular taunt with occasional damage move). (In those few groups where I am not the MT, the MTs always rave about the extra defense they get from ancient pledge and seek me out again. If in a pinch, pop on offering of armament as well).Are there things not working? sure (e.g. lifetap on degree of decay). But a wreck? no. So in conclusion, learn how to play and/or teach your friends how to play. A good start is to send them here.

swampthing
12-18-2004, 09:33 AM
Sounds like your friends are pretty sucky SK's and are playing their class wrong.You see not many complaints here because SK's are decent characters. I fail to see how SK's suck so bad when they tank better than zerks, and have more utility as well. I bet my group members would probably take issue with my supposed "suckness" considering how many times i've saved lives with feign death, how much damaged i've warded, how much damage i've done (my dps isn't trivial in the least), or perhaps the many many levels i've acted as MT and had no issues at all. I could go on and on but it sounds to me like your just trolling. I'd rather have a SK in the group than quite a few other classes as they bring alot to the table. The only real issue i have at the moment is the few broken skills we have.

Murfer
12-18-2004, 10:07 AM
<DIV>Would I not group my friends due to the inefficiency of their class?  Of course not, that's ludicrous...they are my friends, lol....however, I'm shocked that you guys aren't owning up to the fact that SK's get the shaft.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's already been said here by some of you..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians Tank Better...</DIV> <DIV>Zerks hold aggro better...</DIV> <DIV>Bruisers/Other Fighter classes do more DPS...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what is it exactly that SK's do well?  FD someone?  HT?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It just seems like mediocrity across the board.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I apologize if my original post seemed harsh...I am not trying to judge a class by a few players... this has been my experience with any SK I have played with on Guk, period.  It has nothing to do with the players, at all....it has to do with the class and it's limitations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whatever guys, lol, just take it for what it's worth from someone who has to heal you guys ....  SK's are not up to speed and I think it sucks for you. If I am offending you with that statement, that's not my intent.</DIV>

Crazy G
12-18-2004, 10:13 AM
<DIV>i love being a SK... im constantly the MT and i never hear complaints, yes i loose argo sometimes, happens, but after completing an HO its [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] hard to loose it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>like the others said ( and im sure they are a lot better than me at being a sk) its all about play style... and the mindset to just stay there and and take it.... </DIV> <DIV>if it all hits the fan... theres always our FD.... not for yourself of course, for the silly DPS or Healer that POed our punching dummy.</DIV>

Xylon_Niteso
12-18-2004, 10:28 AM
<DIV>28 Shadow Knight.. tons of AC, Quest armor, all adept spells.. and the best stuff I can wear in items/weapons at my level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff99>We are not up to par. </FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We do require a lot of healing in comparison to the other tanking classes, and I have my wife.. an Inquisitor sitting in the same room next to me as proof. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Trust me, she lets me know all the time how much power we eat keeping us up front. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The aggro hold is another issue, I spend more time doing taunts, Decree of Decay, Inflame, Shout, Taunt, we all have em, and nothing holds the aggro 24/7. And, we struggle with it. You guy's all know it too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our class does need some work, it will come in time .. :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's not playstyle.. it's the class. </DIV>

grypho
12-18-2004, 11:05 AM
<DIV>Ok i'm a lvl 32 sk and yes I can see some improvement with us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I havent played any other fighter types up to this lvl but here how i see it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brusiers/Monks ... Best dps I have seen from the fighters. Not much burst Dmg but great average damage per second.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserkers/Guardians... Good at both dps and tanking... yes I've let berserkers tank and they can do it well, and guardians also...Berserkers can compete with Monk dps if they have good gear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for Tanking The only real advantage they got on Sk's is thier Tower Shield... Which gives them more block rate and better Ac. But i have grouped with Guardians a few times and have been the main tank over them if my ac is higher and a few times it has been b/c i usually have nice gear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pally/sk.... Ok Personally I love my Sk but from what I'm seeing Pallys got the edge for a tank, why because they got minor heals. A 400 hp heal will usually go alot farther then a 400 dmg harm touch. But Sk got a slight advantage in the dps... not by much but a little.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sk's are good right now but I feel we will get some very plesent changes in the future and at one point, even if it dont last...the other fighters will cry and say we have too much power, then we will get the nerf bat and the cycle with start all over.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you don't like playing sk how they are go play something else, and dont play just in expectation of getting more powerfull later. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways play a sk if you like them now, dont play them to like em tommorow.</DIV>

Theodr
12-18-2004, 11:07 AM
<DIV>Well, overall i find SK to tank just as good as any guardian/berserker/paladin etc etc.. healing costs are about the same between any of them on the same mobs from my experience. The only problem is they seem to oddly lack a bit of aggro, but that's not entirely the person's fault. If you take a look at paladin and guardian skills, you notice a whole lot of them give them aggro. While SK stuff tends to be more tuned to doing damage. Of course i am not saying they are bad at taunting, just a split off from group tends to happen more with SKs than pal/guard. But i have never had anyone die or get in any real danger before he gets them back on him. On a single target there is absolutely no aggro problem</DIV>

DUNN
12-18-2004, 11:21 AM
<DIV>Yes i have been seeing a difference now that i am thirty.   But it i not with single pulls it is when I do a group pull that i have aggro holding problems.  The reason yo do not see an outrage ofrcomplaints is we are barely beggining to reach these lvls.. The people who already went throug them should be relaying these problems.  But i am sure now that the majority of us are getting to the higher lvls there will be threads on this if it is a problem. </DIV>

EDG
12-18-2004, 11:30 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DUNN wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yes i have been seeing a difference now that i am thirty.   But it i not with single pulls it is when I do a group pull that i have aggro holding problems.  The reason yo do not see an outrage ofrcomplaints is we are barely beggining to reach these lvls.. The people who already went throug them should be relaying these problems.  But i am sure now that the majority of us are getting to the higher lvls there will be threads on this if it is a problem. <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, I cannot speak on behalf of the 30+ crowd, checked the stats today and im only the 18th person on my server to reach level 28 (which means only 17 people are higher...).  Maybe theres just not enough higher level players to fully test SKs ability. <BR>

Shadame
12-18-2004, 11:39 AM
At 24 I'm usually a godsend tank to most of the people I group with.I really think you people who complain about healing/agro aren't up par with your use of abilities. I use my wards all of the time, which keeps me intact as well as holding agro. I start with an HO, use grim coil and between an ability here and there and the wards I have yet to loose agro, group or single, in a group where the wizard doesnt drop his entire power bar. As a secondary I use my adept 1 ancient pledge and all of my nice support buffs, and am warmly accepted into groups. I can't speak for the 30+, but as the other guy said, the only class that can hold agro better than me so far is the berserker. At the level range I'm at now, sure, there is room for improvement, but I have yet to see anything that rquires your level of whinning about.Stop trying to start a flame war. It's detestable behavior.

hatefullinte
12-18-2004, 11:47 AM
<DIV>I dont see any problem with the sk class...I do honestly think it all goes down to skill.Using the right combination of spells etc makes a lot of diffrence than just hitting the taunt now and then ..I have no problem for example with tanking a group of orange or yellow mobs sometimes with more than 3 mobs and coming out of it with no deaths .Other times i have grouped with guardians in the same situation manage to wipe the whole group before he can say "RUN"..But i havnt experienced the game beyond level 24 so it might change beyond that </DIV>

Murfer
12-18-2004, 11:58 AM
<DIV>BTW...I didn't really start noticing the decline in SK effectiveness until level 22+ or so...I am 37 now, and it's gotten nothing but worse each level.  Again, just my observations from the healers side.</DIV>

Balast
12-18-2004, 12:04 PM
<DIV>All classes are not equal. Always thought it was good to have a difference.  Sk's are not supposed to tank like Guardians. Not supposed to be DPS like Monks. They are a hybrid. maybe not like EQ1 is. but still a big difference between a specialized class and a secondary class. I dont expect my Monk to Tank better then any metal class. Still just Seems like your complaining. and id have to agree. My Monk can tank. but not as well as others. And to tank with my Monk I have to make sure That i have all my defenses up and im buffed. Otherwise its a short tank session.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ME</DIV>

Murfer
12-18-2004, 01:06 PM
<DIV>Who's trying to start a flame war?  I'm not a SK, i'm a Warden, lol...and I started this thread because I wanted to find out where SK's stood in terms of their class, and was just shocked to not see a whole lot of comments regarding the downsides on these boards.  Maybe it's just the Guk server, but it's fairly well known and talked about, at least in the level 30+ crowd, how much the class is hurting. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm not trying to come down on you guys, hell, I empathize strongly with you...If anythign, I just want SOE to IMPROVE your class to make it more in balance with other fighter classes.  If that makes me a bad guy, then so be it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW....does this mean you can't have an absolute blast playing your character?  No, of course not...more power to you and I hope you are enjoying it...alot!  I would just like to see the playing field more level for SK's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Murferoo on <span class=date_text>12-18-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:07 AM</span>

DrAtla
12-18-2004, 02:32 PM
Yeah, unfortunately Murf I think your friends are just noobs... I do about as well as any other tank with the agro, although it might take a bit more work than a Guardian. If your SKs aren't holding agro I would guess that they aren't really paying attention to what's going on and are getting a bit lazy. In all the groups I've been in I have seen all types of tanks lose agro plenty, and I admit that I do too. I can tell a good group by how well they keep the agro on me. For instance, a zerker who goes berzerk right at the beginning of the fight is asking for agro. A caster who nukes away right from the start is also asking for it. I remember exactly the same thing in EQ, I was a wiz and you had to learn how to group with people and deal with agro. It's not all on the tank, a lot of it is how various classes in the group play. I would guess that Sony purposely made agro somewhat annoying to keep battles interesting and keep you on your toes. Like other posters here I find I can keep agro fine, I just have to stay on my toes, use the proper ability combinations, and have group of people with me who knows how to play. I think the real problem in EQ2 is not the SK, it's the noobs who either didn't play EQ1 or forgot how to play EQ1.

EDG
12-18-2004, 02:35 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Murferoo wrote:<BR> <DIV>Who's trying to start a flame war?  I'm not a SK, i'm a Warden, lol...</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yeh, I've found that Inquisitors make MUCH better healers, you guys are borked, you should go to your own forum, and try to get your skills in order, I'll take an Inq. over a Warden anyday.<BR>

Bylb
12-18-2004, 03:37 PM
<DIV>Funny thing it seems all sk under 30 do fine with agro and all other over 30 doesn't, go figure... well i know why since i am 35 myself everyone believing that sk can control its agro 100% due to its skill be ready to call yourself a noob when you start xping in RE or rivervale because half the time our taunts are resisted and do strictly nothing there, i spend my time spaming my taunts group buff lifetap dots bash debuff everything that could generate some agro and still lose it regulary.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also agro is broke in general, yesterday i lost agro in middle of a fight to a brigand, you will say it happen since brigands do a lot of dps, but the problem is that this brigand went afk and was doing nothing but sitting next to us !!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our taunt work not too bad on even con mobs or lower but on orange/yellow/red you better get a guardian or bersek to tank they seem to have better taunts for high lvl mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Else our DPS is far to be that bad with a good 2hand, sure we are the worst dps in fighter with pally, but sometime you better get a well geared SK for DPS than a poorly equiped monk IMO.</DIV>

Kunathar
12-18-2004, 06:56 PM
<blockquote><hr>Murferoo wrote:<DIV>Who's trying to start a flame war? I'm not a SK, i'm a Warden, lol...and I started this thread because I wanted to find out where SK's stood in terms of their class, and was just shocked to not see a whole lot of comments regarding the downsides on these boards. Maybe it's just the Guk server, but it's fairly well known and talked about, at least in the level 30+ crowd, how much the class is hurting. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I'm not trying to come down on you guys, hell, I empathize strongly with you...If anythign, I just want SOE to IMPROVE your class to make it more in balance with other fighter classes. If that makes me a bad guy, then so be it. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>BTW....does this mean you can't have an absolute blast playing your character? No, of course not...more power to you and I hope you are enjoying it...alot! I would just like to see the playing field more level for SK's.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Murferoo on <span class=date_text>12-18-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:07 AM</span><hr></blockquote>Murferoo -How about you asking these "friends" of yours to come here and explain to their class peers why they suck so bad in playing their class and having much trouble in maintaining consistent aggro and a relative usefullness in your average exp/quest group. I for one enjoy my class choice. I do not seem to have these aggro issues you mention, I feel I can tank perfectly fine under most situations and I have no problem acknowledging that a Warrior Class has a slight edge. But the edge is NOT de-balancing to the point of totally borking the SK class in groups.So do us all a favor, get your friends here to post their issues and I am sure someone will gladly provide them with some detailed hints and tips on what he/she may be doing wrong. Or better yet, roll a ShadowKnight and play one and return with some concrete evidence that my class is useless.Because, at this point in time, I disagree with your rather mis-guided, uninformed conclusions.Good-day<p>Message Edited by Kunathar on <span class=date_text>12-18-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:57 AM</span>

N7649U
12-18-2004, 06:59 PM
Warden Sucks, I want a Cleric based healer, hehehe go kite something(i loved telling druids that in eq1). Im not 30+ so i cant comment on that, but the game is barely 1 month old, give it time folks.Gorn25sk

lilchipp
12-18-2004, 07:32 PM
if being able to kill yellows/oranges while solo and still have 80%+ hp and half my power left is borked then wow i cant wait to get fixedi found that sk needs to be played smart at lvl 20 i was gettin my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] kicked in TS by white con crabs i was not happy thought my class was gimped at lvl 22 id learned how to use my spells more effectively, by using a ward, HO's and queing my spells in a manner where i always had a special to use i found i could destroy just about any yellow con i wanted im not even topped up with good gear hell i only done aq1 so far so damage output is just not a problem for me at all because i have staying power agro can be a problem its true but i find if you get a HO and taunt off its pretty hard to lose it unless another tank uses a taunt, i find that i prefer being MA most of the time i can take agro off a caster then if need be and just spam my ward on whoever is underattack i think SK are an awesome class and offer alot to a grp as long as the SK knows how to play there class.

Kanfo
12-18-2004, 08:00 PM
I've noticed a lot of aggro problems since 26 or so, but have just learned to accomodate. I find we make just as good (or better) off tanks and secondary tanks than a main tank, with our advanced ward (love the infernal pact) and other buffs.

Bylb
12-18-2004, 08:14 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kunathar wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Murferoo wrote:<BR> <DIV>Who's trying to start a flame war? I'm not a SK, i'm a Warden, lol...and I started this thread because I wanted to find out where SK's stood in terms of their class, and was just shocked to not see a whole lot of comments regarding the downsides on these boards. Maybe it's just the Guk server, but it's fairly well known and talked about, <FONT color=#ccff00>at least in the level 30+ crowd</FONT>, how much the class is hurting. </DIV> <DIV>I'm not trying to come down on you guys, hell, I empathize strongly with you...If anythign, I just want SOE to IMPROVE your class to make it more in balance with other fighter classes. If that makes me a bad guy, then so be it. </DIV> <DIV>BTW....does this mean you can't have an absolute blast playing your character? No, of course not...more power to you and I hope you are enjoying it...alot! I would just like to see the playing field more level for SK's.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Murferoo on <SPAN class=date_text>12-18-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:07 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><BR><BR>Murferoo -<BR><BR>How about you asking these "friends" of yours to come here and explain to their class peers why they suck so bad in playing their class and having much trouble in maintaining consistent aggro and a relative usefullness in your average exp/quest group. <BR><BR>I for one enjoy my class choice. I do not seem to have these aggro issues you mention, I feel I can tank perfectly fine under most situations and I have no problem acknowledging that a Warrior Class has a slight edge. But the edge is NOT de-balancing to the point of totally borking the SK class in groups.<BR><BR>So do us all a favor, get your friends here to post their issues and I am sure someone will gladly provide them with some detailed hints and tips on what he/she may be doing wrong. Or better yet, roll a ShadowKnight and play one and return with some concrete evidence that my class is useless.<BR><BR>Because, at this point in time, I disagree with your rather mis-guided, uninformed conclusions.<BR><BR>Good-day</P> <P><FONT color=#ccff00>LVL 22 shadowknight</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by Kunathar on <SPAN class=date_text>12-18-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:57 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Who is uninformed?..<BR> <DIV>As a lvl 35 SK i agree on murferoo point and don't see why everyone one star this post unless you are a lowbie SK and didn't experience the class for more than a couple lvl (sk start at 20) but then you are the one being miss informed ... .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>FYI peoples one starring this post,you are one starring a report of issues that will affect you in a near futur (i don't believe any 30+ sk is enough dumb to one star that since they are affected by it), there is no problem being ignorant there is one being dumb, so please if you are ignorant don't be dumb trying to flame/one starring a serious issue.. . Thanks !</DIV>

Murfer
12-19-2004, 01:47 AM
<DIV>Last time to qualify this...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My static group, consists of the top 3-5 players on the Guk Server in all of our relative classes.  I am the #3 Warden, my wife is the #3 Assasin, My SK friend is the #3 SK,  Bruiser friend is the #3 on the server, Wizzy is the #5, and Zerker is #5.  Our other SK was the #1 SK up until level 27 or so, stopped playing out of frustration, started again, and quit at level 31 as the #7 SK...he has since rerolled and now plays a Dirge and is level 25...we are all in the level 37-40 range.  We've played MMOG's together for 6 years...EQ1, DAOC, etc....it has nothing to do with playstyle, or lack of knowledge. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The #1 SK eventually re-rolled out of sheer frustration....our other SK, the #3 on the server just plays half-hearted now, doesn't really give a crap and plays about 2/3 less of the time now than he did...why?  Because his class is seriously broken, and doesn't stack up next to other fighter classes.  He can't hold aggro in our groups, with or without the zerker in our group...our bruiser holds aggro so much better than him it's sad....the Zerker mind you is the king of aggro control, we all know that.  He can't dish out DPS like the other fighter classes.  HIs spells, while fun in some way for him, don't add a whole lot to the group picture...not in the mid-high end anyway.</DIV> <DIV><BR>And as I've mentioned, this isn't restricted to my two buds.  It's the same with ANY SK i've grouped with...period.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For those under level 25....please reserve your comments.  I think classes are all tuned fairly well under level 25...but after 25 it's just a different game in many ways.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am sorry if this is upsetting to some of you, but deal with it, get over it, and start observing the other classes around you and then take a real, honest to goodness assesment.  I would be [Removed for Content] personally.  I am trying to help, believe it or not, lol, not tear you guys down.  1-star me all you want, the truth is the truth.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will ask my 2 SK buds to comment on this thread....no gurantee's that they will, but I don't see why they wouldn't.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And finally, to put it all in perspective.....on a scale of 1 to 10, with 5 being "balanced" against all other fighter types...I would put an SK at a 3, whereas you should be in the 4-6 range....example, of that...Wardens are a 6 vs. an Inquisitor being around a 4.5 (this could change with the new stackable reactives...but they needed something to make up for their huge power inefficiency)   .....or an Assasin is a 6 vs. a Rogue at a 5....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I would really like to see is level 30+ SK's post their thoughts here, and be super honest about it....sometimes we have a tendency to want to defend our classes just because we feel someone is attacking it rather than take an honest, objective look at it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-1 Star Murf signing off <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

vwlsskng
12-19-2004, 02:04 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Murferoo wrote:<BR> <DIV>Would I not group my friends due to the inefficiency of their class?  Of course not, that's ludicrous...they are my friends, lol....however, I'm shocked that you guys aren't owning up to the fact that SK's get the shaft.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's already been said here by some of you..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians Tank Better...</DIV> <DIV>Zerks hold aggro better...</DIV> <DIV>Bruisers/Other Fighter classes do more DPS...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what is it exactly that SK's do well?  FD someone?  HT?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It just seems like mediocrity across the board.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I apologize if my original post seemed harsh...I am not trying to judge a class by a few players... this has been my experience with any SK I have played with on Guk, period.  It has nothing to do with the players, at all....it has to do with the class and it's limitations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whatever guys, lol, just take it for what it's worth from someone who has to heal you guys ....  SK's are not up to speed and I think it sucks for you. If I am offending you with that statement, that's not my intent.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> You bloody fool. Did you play EverQuest I? Shadow Knights were then, and are now, hybrids--jacks of all trades, yet master of none. You obviously don't know your RPG.

vwlsskng
12-19-2004, 02:08 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Murferoo wrote:<BR> <DIV>Last time to qualify this...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My static group, consists of the top 3-5 players on the Guk Server in all of our relative classes.  I am the #3 Warden, my wife is the #3 Assasin, My SK friend is the #3 SK,  Bruiser friend is the #3 on the server, Wizzy is the #5, and Zerker is #5.  Our other SK was the #1 SK up until level 27 or so, stopped playing out of frustration, started again, and quit at level 31 as the #7 SK...he has since rerolled and now plays a Dirge and is level 25...we are all in the level 37-40 range.  We've played MMOG's together for 6 years...EQ1, DAOC, etc....it has nothing to do with playstyle, or lack of knowledge.  <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You seem to be obsessed with rankings. Where do and your wife rank in the tangible world, you alcoholic?</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

Shadd
12-19-2004, 02:10 AM
<DIV>WOW Murf, your hitting it right on the head, I'm a lvl 35 sk on BB server, and your exactly right about the agro thing.</DIV> <DIV>    Also let me say you have done a great job about being clear about where your coming from on this, all these Lowbies who think your flaming or complaining about shadowknights must have the I.Q. of a rock. Your complaint's are centered on the broken skill not the class, and even if you are complaining about my class whats going to happen... sony will either ignore you or maybe make my class better. So I don't see anything bad at all from any of your posts, and frankly I'm glad a non sk class is seeing this problem too. One thing though that I am not seeing a problem with yet, is being able to take a hit, so far I have yet to see a fighter class take less dmg in a fight, then me, when im tanking.</DIV>

vwlsskng
12-19-2004, 02:15 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shaddan wrote:<BR> <DIV>WOW Murf, your hitting it right on the head, I'm a lvl 35 sk on BB server, and your exactly right about the agro thing.</DIV> <DIV>    Also let me say you have done a great job about being clear about where your coming from on this, all these Lowbies who think your flaming or complaining about shadowknights must have the I.Q. of a rock. Your complaint's are centered on the broken skill not the class, and even if you are complaining about my class whats going to happen... sony will either ignore you or maybe make my class better. So I don't see anything bad at all from any of your posts, and frankly I'm glad a non sk class is seeing this problem too. One thing though that I am not seeing a problem with yet, is being able to take a hit, so far I have yet to see a fighter class take less dmg in a fight, then me, when im tanking.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Assumptions are dangerous things, "Shaddan." And you're mistaking pride with stupidity? That's brilliant. You might want to endeavour to learn how to compose your thoughts into coherent sentences before throwing stones from the illusory safety of the glass house in which you obviously reside.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is an ellipsis, by the way: . . .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As Anton Szandor LaVey once wrote, "It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shemhamforash!</DIV>

Shadd
12-19-2004, 02:15 AM
<DIV>One more thing Vwissknght, other then trying to start a flame war I dont see any other purpose to your post, sk's and pallys were number one for agro in eq1.   If Murf happens to be in the higher rankings then thats great too, I hope someday, you'll know what it's like also.  But I don't see that happening for you if you act in game like you post in here..... Now if i could just quote from some well respected or famous person to end my post with.... Oh well, I'll "endeavor" to steal some one else's fame a different time.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Shaddan on <span class=date_text>12-18-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:34 PM</span>

Murfer
12-19-2004, 02:27 AM
<DIV>Really Vwl, get a grip.... I posted the server rankings as simply one way of "qualifying" myself.  This doesn't make me better than anyone else per se, but it should give some small indication that neither myself nor my group are "noobs". </DIV> <DIV><BR>As for my ranking in real life....quite well thank you.  I own a nation wide disaster response company, and a Marketing/Sales company in Souther CA, have 2 awesome kids who I love to pieces, have a stunningly gorgeous wife both inside and out, adore my family and friends and am very greatful for all that I have.  You?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In addition, of course SK's are hybrids, but that isn't what's being discussed.  What is relevant, is that whether they are hybrids or not, they are not stacking up against their fellow subclasses.  THAT is the problem, now please, enough with your pseudo intellectual, condescending arrogance.  Thx champ!</DIV><p>Message Edited by Murferoo on <span class=date_text>12-18-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:33 PM</span>

vwlsskng
12-19-2004, 02:45 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Murferoo wrote:<BR> <DIV>Really Vwl, get a grip.... I posted the server rankings as simply one way of "qualifying" myself.  This doesn't make me better than anyone else per se, but it should give some small indication that neither myself nor my group are "noobs". </DIV> <DIV><BR>As for my ranking in real life....quite well thank you.  I own a nation wide disaster response company, and a Marketing/Sales company in Souther CA, have 2 awesome kids who I love to pieces, have a stunningly gorgeous wife both inside and out, adore my family and friends and am very greatful for all that I have.  You?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In addition, of course SK's are hybrids, but that isn't what's being discussed.  What is relevant, is that whether they are hybrids or not, they are not stacking up against their fellow subclasses.  THAT is the problem, now please, enough with your pseudo intellectual, condescending arrogance.  Thx champ!</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Murferoo on <SPAN class=date_text>12-18-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:33 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> <DIV>Well, Chump, my question was rhetorical, but your answer is appreciated nonetheless. You must have a lot of spare time on your hands if you own said businesses, are married and have two children yet spend so much time in a virtual realm--I suppose there aren't enough earthquakes and mudslides in good ol' "SoCal" these days to keep you busy elsewhere.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You cannot compare the Shadow Knight's damage to the Berserkers, nor can you compare the Shadow Knight's tanking to the Guardians. While they are all subclasses, the other two are closer to purity than the Shadow Knight can ever hope to be. That was the way it was in this game's predecessor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've had just about enough of your pseudo-educated banter on this "game."</DIV></DIV>

vwlsskng
12-19-2004, 02:48 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shaddan wrote:<BR> <DIV>One more thing Vwissknght, other then trying to start a flame war I dont see any other purpose to your post, sk's and pallys were number one for agro in eq1.   If Murf happens to be in the higher rankings then thats great too, I hope someday, you'll know what it's like also.  But I don't see that happening for you if you act in game like you post in here..... Now if i could just quote from some well respected or famous person to end my post with.... Oh well, I'll "endeavor" to steal some one else's fame a different time.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Shaddan on <SPAN class=date_text>12-18-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:34 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I played the original game for several years and enjoyed the proverbial end-game as a Shadow Knight, though I don't feel the need to flaunt that fact. In four posts, you've boasted your level in three of them. My question to you is this: Why do you feel the need to show us how far you can urinate in a computer game? Really, few of us care. Again, I would enjoy seeing your posts prepared with a little more thought than this. I'm sure a Level Thrity-Five Shadowknight can do better, can't she?

vwlsskng
12-19-2004, 02:52 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shaddan wrote:<BR> <DIV>Now if i could just quote from some well respected or famous person to end my post with.... Oh well, I'll "endeavor" to steal some one else's fame a different time.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Shaddan on <SPAN class=date_text>12-18-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:34 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You buffoon. That quote's purpose was to reveal my allegiance. You are a blunt one, aren't you? Look at me, Daddy, I'm pretending to be evil.</P> <P><BR></P>

vwlsskng
12-19-2004, 02:54 AM
<DIV>No.</DIV>

Theodr
12-19-2004, 03:07 AM
<DIV>There really isn't much to dispute on that fact, SK is a fine tank, but just doesn't taunt as well. Having to use any other skills besides regular taunt abilities is evidence of that. Would it affect my decision on what tank i want? Not really.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as LFGers go i would always just choose the highest and best equipped tank each time. If 1 mob in a group goes and smacks a dps or whatever it's not the end of the world, as long as the tank is smart enough to taunt/attack the mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they were losing aggro on single ^^ mobs, then i suppose i would be more concerned.</DIV>

vwlsskng
12-19-2004, 03:11 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Theodric wrote:<BR> <DIV>There really isn't much to dispute on that fact, SK is a fine tank, but just doesn't taunt as well. Having to use any other skills besides regular taunt abilities is evidence of that. Would it affect my decision on what tank i want? Not really.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as LFGers go i would always just choose the highest and best equipped tank each time. If 1 mob in a group goes and smacks a dps or whatever it's not the end of the world, as long as the tank is smart enough to taunt/attack the mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they were losing aggro on single ^^ mobs, then i suppose i would be more concerned.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Well said, Theodric. The game is far too new for any of us to make judgements so harsh as a few of this thread's contributors have made. At Level 50 with the best gear the game has to offer and a spellbook chock full of Master III abilities, tell me what you think.

Murfer
12-19-2004, 05:47 AM
<DIV>This is where you are incorrect VWL...have noticed that you of course haven't revealed what level you're at yet.....mind posting your profile for us if you could?..might explain some things.  If you are stating that waiting until level 50 and having master 3's is the point to determine when and if classes need tuning, then it is you good sir who are the buffoon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for my RL business, it's going great, and it's setup in a way that allows me to do whatever I want...which is pretty cool if you ask me.  But this of course is besides the point.....and why are YOU obsessed with people stating their levels and or experience thus far in the game?  Does it make you feel less than in some way?</DIV>

vwlsskng
12-19-2004, 06:27 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Murferoo wrote:<BR> <DIV>This is where you are incorrect VWL...have noticed that you of course haven't revealed what level you're at yet.....mind posting your profile for us if you could?..might explain some things.  If you are stating that waiting until level 50 and having master 3's is the point to determine when and if classes need tuning, then it is you good sir who are the buffoon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for my RL business, it's going great, and it's setup in a way that allows me to do whatever I want...which is pretty cool if you ask me.  But this of course is besides the point.....and why are YOU obsessed with people stating their levels and or experience thus far in the game?  Does it make you feel less than in some way?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I'm merely bored, given the fact that this time would be spent playing. My frustrations are vent thus. You are but a fly to my honey. Thank you for the entertainment.

Murfer
12-19-2004, 06:55 AM
<DIV>Haha, that's what I thought.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good day to you sir.</DIV>

ArsenaI
12-19-2004, 06:58 AM
<DIV>I just want to say that since I have to share my playing comp right now and am stuck reading the forums, this is very entertaining...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please carry on :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

vwlsskng
12-19-2004, 07:08 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Murferoo wrote:<BR> <DIV>Haha, that's what I thought.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good day to you sir.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Kunathar
12-19-2004, 09:46 AM
<blockquote><hr>Bylbot wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Kunathar wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Murferoo wrote:<BR><DIV>Who's trying to start a flame war? I'm not a SK, i'm a Warden, lol...and I started this thread because I wanted to find out where SK's stood in terms of their class, and was just shocked to not see a whole lot of comments regarding the downsides on these boards. Maybe it's just the Guk server, but it's fairly well known and talked about, <FONT color=#ccff00>at least in the level 30+ crowd</FONT>, how much the class is hurting. </DIV><DIV>I'm not trying to come down on you guys, hell, I empathize strongly with you...If anythign, I just want SOE to IMPROVE your class to make it more in balance with other fighter classes. If that makes me a bad guy, then so be it. </DIV><DIV>BTW....does this mean you can't have an absolute blast playing your character? No, of course not...more power to you and I hope you are enjoying it...alot! I would just like to see the playing field more level for SK's.</DIV><P>Message Edited by Murferoo on <SPAN class=date_text>12-18-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:07 AM</SPAN><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR><BR><BR>Murferoo -<BR><BR>How about you asking these "friends" of yours to come here and explain to their class peers why they suck so bad in playing their class and having much trouble in maintaining consistent aggro and a relative usefullness in your average exp/quest group. <BR><BR>I for one enjoy my class choice. I do not seem to have these aggro issues you mention, I feel I can tank perfectly fine under most situations and I have no problem acknowledging that a Warrior Class has a slight edge. But the edge is NOT de-balancing to the point of totally borking the SK class in groups.<BR><BR>So do us all a favor, get your friends here to post their issues and I am sure someone will gladly provide them with some detailed hints and tips on what he/she may be doing wrong. Or better yet, roll a ShadowKnight and play one and return with some concrete evidence that my class is useless.<BR><BR>Because, at this point in time, I disagree with your rather mis-guided, uninformed conclusions.<BR><BR>Good-day</P><P><FONT color=#ccff00>LVL 22 shadowknight</FONT></P><P>Message Edited by Kunathar on <SPAN class=date_text>12-18-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:57 AM</SPAN><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Who is uninformed?..<BR><DIV>As a lvl 35 SK i agree on murferoo point and don't see why everyone one star this post unless you are a lowbie SK and didn't experience the class for more than a couple lvl (sk start at 20) but then you are the one being miss informed ... .</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>FYI peoples one starring this post,you are one starring a report of issues that will affect you in a near futur (i don't believe any 30+ sk is enough dumb to one star that since they are affected by it), there is no problem being ignorant there is one being dumb, so please if you are ignorant don't be dumb trying to flame/one starring a serious issue.. . Thanks !</DIV><hr></blockquote>With all due respect, please take your "lowbie" comment and shove it up your royal [Removed for Content]...I will get my SK passed 30 and see for myself thank you...I still say it is lack of player skill in knowing how to use the taunts available to them. I don't care if someone is level 50 and cannot taunt worth a donkey's [Removed for Content], I will wait until a lot more SK's, including myself, hit 30+ and start making up my own mind as to whether or not I rolled a "broken" class.

Dazzler-
12-19-2004, 05:05 PM
<DIV>Been neglecting to jump into threads of this nature, but I will interject my thoughts anyhow! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a 32 SK on Najena. I have a group of RL friends I play with every day. Fury, Zerker, Brawler, Bardguy and an Assassin. Up until the point I reached about lv 25 keeping agro on myself was not a problem. Every level there after it has become more and more obvious to me that taunting does not do 1 bit of good when you have a Zerk in your group, sure I might pull something off him for a few seconds, but ooo look...its back on him again. I pretty much gave up trying at this point, why waste my mana on taunting when I could just toss down my wards, keep the group buffed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scenario ... we were all hunting in RoV the other night, killing books and golems..pretty much everything that we ran into. An add would wander by...this is where I usually break off main fight and pounce on him. Taunt, taunt etc etc...I seem to have agro for a few %...Zerk pulls agro...[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] hes not even hitting him. Whats even better...if I decide hey lets use HT...that in itself should earn all the agro you want...mobs usually shrug off the damage and pounce back on the Zerk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whats all my rambling mean? Berzerkers are far superior with agro. I recall a few occasions where the Zerk was AFK...I was pounding the crap out of a mob and he still gets the agro... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im sort of at a loss as to my role....I know im supposed to be a support tank...aka tank mezzer...but its futile for the most part. I still love my Sk though, im sure given time SOE will toss out some fixes for our agro issues. Till that day I will continue to play my sk as my main. </DIV>

Dazzler-
12-19-2004, 05:06 PM
<DIV>*double post* blee</DIV><p>Message Edited by Dazzler-01 on <span class=date_text>12-19-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:06 AM</span>

DeathDisc0
12-19-2004, 06:14 PM
<DIV>Not sure whats up with the personal attacks on people this is just a game. Guy was just pointing out something that is pretty obvious</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dunno I dont follow server rankings to be honest not even sure how to look up server rankings <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> but that is besides the point. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im a level 26.5 SK as of this post, Im not exactly high level or anything, work and family do not permit me the amount of time I would love to devote to this game but such is life, but here is the things Im noticing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aggro - I cant seem to hold aggro that well at all, now originally I thought it was cause I didnt have any adepts in taunt, shout, inflame but after reading posts that doesnt seem to make that much difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Damage - we are pretty pathetic to other classes when it comes to damage, sure I can solo greens well enough, but we kill stuff extremely slow and just dont do a whole lot of damage, if you are an sk doing an insane amount of damage can you please post what spells, skills and equipment you are using that would help me a bit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Defense - Our defense is nothing special, maybe its just me I think I have decent gear for my level got all my AQs done, but my defense is just slightly better than a beserker or bruiser. Guardians on the other hand have a ton more HP and Defense which is expected, I think they are the best meat shields in the game, thats just my opinion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Useless Stuff - We have too much garbage spells, the stupid side kick for 15 secs' where you need essence to cast is dumb, Id rather have my old skel pet that atleast was some use for a bit <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> So other spells I can not list right now only because Im at work and cant see them exactly. That pathetic lifetap that gives me 9 hp when hit woot!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now if Im wrong fine, tell me what I might be doing wrong with my class, I do everything I can think of, Im not very good at dps, I dont have any really good damage skills but HT which has a 15 min cool down it seems or longer. To make matters worse now I get invited to groups and get the occasional message, hey if you cant hold aggro we will have to replace you, which is rude, then dont ask me to join. So apparently other people are noticing SK's are having issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Trystwy
12-19-2004, 06:28 PM
<DIV>I'm only a lowbie darkelven shadowknight (lv23/almost 24) but I'm seeing aggro issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I'm in a group with melee even a level or two higher, I will use almost an entire powerbar per fight trying to drag mobs off them (if its a multi-pull with +reds/oranges). I think a lot of my issues stem from lag but I agree that our taunts are definately underpowered especially compared with the EQ1 SK which I played to lv53. I also (in other games) played casting tanks (champion-DAoC, reaver-HZ) and I'd have to say that in EQ2 I've most definately had to work the hardest to maintain aggro using a combination of wards, taunts, HO+taunt, aoe diseases/attacks, shield stuns, incombat buffs and as a last resort - feign death on whoever in the group is being badly chewed on at the time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However I often get complimented on my tanking skills but those skills are hard earned and at the end of a game session in Nek forest (for example) I often feel stressed and mentally drained - which is bizarre since this is supposedly a game...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I 'do' believe that the shadowknight class does need fine tuning in order to become a better tank and that our aggro-creating tools are given sharper teeth. I don't mind not being able to do the massive damage (I've gone 1 hand blade+shield) but I expect to be able to tank well and be the aggro maintaining specialist.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><Note: I am using App3 spells/abilities except for my primary ward which is Adept1 - however my armour is top-notch being a mix of AQ pieces and orange-conn crafted plate and crafted jewellry. Upgrading of the spells/abilities will need to happen I know, but it all comes down to money and being lucky in getting SK adept drops - which I have yet to see to in a chest drop....</DIV>

Pact
12-20-2004, 01:37 AM
<DIV>I keep seeing people saying things like " We have to keep trying to hold argo when we group /cry" </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously.. do you want to hit one button and take a nap? Of course you have to try and keep trying to hold it, thats what a tank does.  There is no insta, I have argo for the rest of the fight button.  If you think there is, go play WoW or some other mindless game.</DIV>

jhessal69
12-20-2004, 04:55 AM
<DIV>I didnt bother to read the 3 pages of this post, but yes SK's do suck and yes they do need some kind of boost. I played a sk to 25 and then dumped it for a zerker who is now lvl 27 and i couldent be happier. </DIV>

Shadd
12-20-2004, 08:41 AM
<DIV>   Pactee, thats not the idea at all, we don't want to just hit a agro button and walk away. What we want is to hold agro that we are desperatly trying to hold on to without still losing it.  The other half of the complaint is that taunt doesn't seem to work half the time anyway, it would be the same as a clerics heal spell going off but not healing half the time.  It's something that needs to get fixed is all.</DIV>

DeathDisc0
12-20-2004, 10:00 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pactee wrote:<BR> <DIV>I keep seeing people saying things like " We have to keep trying to hold argo when we group /cry" </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously.. do you want to hit one button and take a nap? Of course you have to try and keep trying to hold it, thats what a tank does.  There is no insta, I have argo for the rest of the fight button.  If you think there is, go play WoW or some other mindless game.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Just like your mindless post? Dont make stupid comments about playing WoW cause Im sure you barely know about the game.</P> <P> </P> <P>What people are saying about trying to keep aggro is we lose it very easy in the 20s, Its not that its work to get it back if it came back but most of the time we cant get it back, unless you are living under a rock most SK's taunts do not work very well.</P> <P>There are tricks to get them to work initially but if aggro breaks I would say 80 percent of the time we cant get it off the person.</P> <P>As for people claiming rescue is broken, I noticed that when I use rescue I then have to use another skill and a taunt and it seems to work, anyone else notice this pattern?</P> <P> </P> <P>BTW trying being a  Shadow Knight first before you make comments it might help just a bit.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by DeathDisc0 on <span class=date_text>12-19-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:02 PM</span>

Rabd
12-20-2004, 12:08 PM
<blockquote><hr>If I'm in a group with melee even a level or two higher, I will use almost an entire powerbar per fight trying to drag mobs off them (if its a multi-pull with +reds/oranges). <hr></blockquote>If you're in a group with a higer level melee why are you trying to drag mobs off of them? Do you make the lowest level person MT or something?

Trystwy
12-20-2004, 02:40 PM
<DIV>I meant melee like a dps class like a rogue, not a tanker - and yes, when the rogue-type class starts getting whacked its more work for the healer, and the healer working overtime = aggro to the healer which means the mobs start getting interested in the healer, so I 'do' need to taunt back off irrespective of the fact that I'm 1-2 levels lower.</DIV>

HowlerMcgr
12-20-2004, 03:36 PM
Lvl 27 Sk bordering lvl 28, Agro holding hmmmm, well level 21 was a hell level for agro, Shout was green and at that level throwing flowers would have been better to retain agro. Finally get decree of decay, yay a new AE taunt, hang on whats this it works completley different to shout. Decree of decay doesnt work the same as the foghter shout did. Im still trying to figure it out but it most definatley works very differently. Shout when used would taunt every mob in the encounter, i know this because i could see the effect. When I was in the high teens id pull with Righteous andger, then AE taunt when they got to our camp. now theres always some mobs take longer to travel than others, when 3/4 of the mobs are in close range and one is still far away shout would still taunt all of those mobs (i could visualy see it). Decree of decay is different here, when i pull and do an AE taunt with Decree of Decay if one mob is still a bit far away i will notice that the far away mob doesnt get the taunt effect when i used the AE taunt.when i am surrounded by mobs from one encounter, The chanter in my static has some mezzed, and we are AoEing the rest, when i use Decree of decay not all of these mobs get taunted, why? i haver no idea, i dont see any resist messages, you can see that these mobs that i didn't see the taunt effect hit, go wandering.Decree of decay doesnt work the same as shout, is it bugged? i don't know. My usual routine if we are AoEing an encounter is Pull > Decree of Decay > Cry of Conviction > Unholy Order > Sickening Decay > Decree of decay. if i dont do all these i will lose agro to my parties static Inquisitor before decree of decay has cycled. of course if we are mezzing the encounter and fighting one at a time then its no problem i will never lose agro. I keep my spells upgraded the worst of my spells is app3, 80% are adept1.What we really need as SKs is a full detailed explanation of how Decree of Decay works, i get some mobs not effected in an encounter with no real reason why this taunt doesnt effect some of the mobs.

Mcja
12-20-2004, 04:13 PM
You forgot to mention if the people playing the said Shadowknights are stupid/dumb/[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] or not....that has a big impact on how well people perceive a class, and oh boy, are there a bushel load of stupid/dumb/[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] people currently playing. I have no trouble at all tanking, keeping agro, playing the support role, etc. Besides, the game has been out for a month, give it some time.Icelandic Darkfrost - 25 Shadowknight

StargazeOblivion
12-20-2004, 07:07 PM
<DIV>EDIT: Sorry. Internet spasmed on me.</DIV><p>Message Edited by StargazeOblivion on <span class=date_text>12-20-2004</span> <span class=time_text>06:09 AM</span>

StargazeOblivion
12-20-2004, 07:08 PM
<DIV>Could the SK class use some work? A bit sure. Is it completely [Removed for Content]? Not by a long shot. I do agree with the fact that sometimes we lose agro and cannot get it back at all. I was in a group in Nektulos hunting giants last night, and despite being the lowest level (24 at the time when everyone else was 25), I was the main tank; I had the most AC and second highest HP. Only a few times did I lose agro but I wasn't able to get it back, and when I did it took 1-2 entire blue bubbles of power spamming my taunts. Most of the time I was able to keep it just fine.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>As for utility, we can do quite a bit as both main and secondary tanks. From all the SKs I've talked to, few ever use their buffs such as Ancient Pledge, Offering of Armament, etc. Demonstration of Faith is wonderful as well. I think one of the major problems with the class (and can hapen with any class) is that many people don't know how to truly play it yet, which relates to people mentioning player skill coming into the picture.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Abilities/Spells like Demonstration of Faith, Unyielding Advance, and Charge all generate agro. They play just as big a part when taunting as Inflame, Shout, Decree of Decay.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When acting as main tank, there have only been a few times where I lost agro and could not regain it. Berzerkers tend to be the ones that do it too, and someone mentioned they're bugged and can't lose agro if they take it with a certain skill? I don't know about that one; first time I heard of it. But in any case, I wouldn't mind a bump in power. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV></DIV>

swampthing
12-20-2004, 07:23 PM
yes zerks are bugged with bloodlust i think its called. Once they turn it on it's highly difficult for ANYONE , including guardians to get aggro back.I guess if the original poster is saying SK's suck for the sole reason that we can't manage aggro as good as a zerk, then yeah, we suck. Problem is we're comparing to a bugged skill. I group regularly with a guardian so I guess I don't notice any taunting issues overly much since i'm not the main tank. I spend my time warding, pulling aggro off healers or casters, doing damage etc. I'd think that when i'm not in the group that my addition is missed.I think there are issues with taunt in general right now as i've seen a guardian have problems pulling aggro off a healer as well at times. Yes they do it a bit easier than i can, but I have no idea what skills hes using to do it with either. All fighters are supposed to be "equal" when it comes to tanking so if all of our taunts are NOT equal then they've failed at making us equal tanks.Personally though, taunting is minor to me since i'm not MT much anymore.

Murfer
12-20-2004, 08:46 PM
<DIV>I wasn't comparing SK's against Zerks, I was comparing SK's against other fighter types across the whole spectrum.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just yesterday, I had a 37 Paladin in the group who did an absolutele wonderful job of keeping aggro on himself even though a zerk was in our group as well.  Our SK wouldn't have been able to do that....well, with the zerker using very few of his abilities and me being super super careful on healing aggro it might've stuck for him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is just a fact guys...it's not some perceived or imagined idea.  It's cheap to automatically assume that people aren't using all their skills etc in order to best generate hate for instance, or to start saying someone's a noob yada yada yada... how can the tope 5 or 6 SK's all in their 30's on GUK server suck that bad?  You've heard it here yourself from multiple high level SK's....they aren't imagining this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Roland_Descha
12-20-2004, 08:48 PM
<DIV>i have not had a problem holding aggro as an sk, if anything when i'm ma i frequently steal the aggro inadvertently with an early demonstration of faith. i would say the most challenging pulls and holds are definitely big groups but as long as my group gives me a few seconds to build the hate i can usually keep it throughout a fight.  imho sk does not suck its alot of fun, if played correctly a group will definitely benefit and if absent it could take 2 people to make up for the skills we posses (dmg dealing spells, tanking ability, and warding) </DIV>

swampthing
12-20-2004, 09:18 PM
Murf, your problem is in your presentation. Coming here, not even being an SK and then saying the entire class sucks because they have issues taunting is pretty much the worst way to go about things. Quite frankly your original post was trollbait at best.It's been known since beta that SK's didn't have enough taunts and that the ones they had weren't effective enough, this isn't news to anyone that tested. But if you think SK's suck as a class because of this one deficiency you are WAY off base. I can't count the number of times i've saved someone in the group that pulled aggro with graven embrace, or the amount of times i've saved someone who was about to die with a ward so the healer had another second to finish casting spells. Or the amount of damage a SK does. None of this is trivial.Are our taunts subpar? yes, definately. I think our spells were supposed to have more hate attached to them and it's just not working. Had you chosen to come here and make a constructive post about how SK's taunts were lacking i think you would have found a more hospitable environment.

N7649U
12-20-2004, 10:47 PM
swampthing gets 5 stars. Murf.... I still would rather have a cleric based healer =) See we all live with not being the best at something.Gorn

Murfer
12-20-2004, 11:11 PM
<DIV>Swamp, I hear you.  I do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I'm not necessarily here to make friends either, lol...I have enough of those.  Was my presentation awful, sure....but it remains the truth....where IS the outrage? I ask this because I've seen 2 of my good friends quit now over basically picking a bum class....which is frustrating to me, and even moreso to them.  It's not just about holding aggro either....your choice of weapons is severely limited, your DPS "seems" to be lower, taunt/aggro broken as we know, etc.....someone made the argument earlier....yes, but we're HYBRIDS he says.....so ??? Does that mean you have to be awful at everything?  At least a Pally can heal adequately AND hold aggro....can SK's?  No.  Zerkers dish out DPS and Hold aggro and Tank... can SK's?  No.  Bruisers barely get hit, dish out great damage, have some super cool buffs/abilities.....granted you guys do get a horse....the list goes on....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It just doesn't stack up in any way, whatsoever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And what's frikken hilarious, is that I'm the "bad guy" ...for defending the need for a boost to your class when you guys wont defend yourselves.  Isn't that just grand.  Good luck guys.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*poof*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

knightk
12-20-2004, 11:24 PM
<DIV>I think the reason we treated you as the "bad guy" was because of the arrogance we felt through your words...just my thoughts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: accidentally hit submit post too early.</DIV><p>Message Edited by knightkap on <span class=date_text>12-20-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:29 AM</span>

swampthing
12-20-2004, 11:47 PM
If you just sit there and swing your weapon your gonna parse the same as a zerk or a guardian(without lust) with a comparable weapon. If you start adding spells though you'll easily outpace the guardian who's geared to be defensive. I haven't parsed against a zerk but I think i could hold my own from just watching combat spam. I was going to run some parses later tonight so we'll see. But if my damage came in between a zerk and a guardian i'd be happy. Zerks can't tank for squat compared to a SK with a shield unless they turn of lust, in which case they are probably worse than us DPS wise. So I again fail to see how SK's suck, other than a known taunt issue.I mean for gods sake if your not tanking have a 2h weapon. You are going to suck DPS wise with a 1h and a shield.I'm glad you have "enough" friends in life, I guess at the age of 33 I didn't realize there ever was such a thing as having "enough" friends, regardless though of having enough or too few, attitude is everything in life and your presentation really suffers. Had you chosen to make an intelligent, well phrased post i bet this dicussion might have been fruitful or may have even gotten a dev to say "i'll check into it" but as it is, it's a boil on the SK board. Down the SK class all you like, other than the taunt issue i think it's one of the best, most interesting and diverse classes in the game. Balancing is coming, i guarantee zerks are in for a nerf, guardians will probably stay much the same and SK's will get some taunt loving. Where's all your uber friends who re-rolled as zerks going to be then? I absolutely guarantee zerks will see the hardest end of the nerf bat, it's just too painfully obvious that some of their skills are out of line.

EDG
12-20-2004, 11:50 PM
<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Murferoo wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And what's frikken hilarious, is that I'm the "bad guy" ...for defending the need for a boost to your class when you guys wont defend yourselves.  Isn't that just grand.  Good luck guys.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*poof*<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You are a troll.</P> <P>Your friends haven't realised the potential of the class.  (or the intent)</P> <P>You *and* your friends haven't learned to control aggro as a group.</P> <P>Tainted caress, Fighting chance, Grim Coil, Decrepit Slam, Decree of Decay, Infernal Pact.  Then I can sit back (save mana), or continue using specials(go all out DPS style).  With the HO, debuffs, and hate-generating specials, I don't lose aggro.  If a zerker (the only class I ever lose aggro to) gains aggro, it's because they went berzerk too early in the fight.  Which is the equivalent of:  A guardian loses aggro to me because I used an HO and finished with decree of decay.  I simply trigger my macro ("Triggering HO, Do not interupt!"), then Fighting chance, any starter spell, decree of decay.. I have aggro back.  It's not rocket science, you just need to know how to utilize your arsenal.</P> <P>If any class generates too much hate early in the fight it's bad news, <STRONG>play smart.  </STRONG></P> <P>Also...  If things go bad (and we all know they do), a Shadowknights arsenal of spells can save an entire party, from graven embrace to infernal pact, from ancient pledge to offering of armament.  And if they get real ugly:  harm touch to drop them on the spot.</P> <DIV>SKs are not meant to stand there and be a meatshield, but take a larger role, a more balanced role, of tank, DPS, and protection.  I know my abilities as a SK, and I'm a welcome guest to anyone that invites me to their group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So take your bottom-of-the-barrel "warden" healer class outta here, and troll someone elses forum.  Want to "help"?  Go post on the berzerker forum about their bugged hate generating skills.</DIV>

EDG
12-20-2004, 11:50 PM
<P>**double post - removed</P><p>Message Edited by EDGEY on <span class=date_text>12-20-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:54 AM</span>

knightk
12-20-2004, 11:52 PM
<DIV>Well said Swampthing </DIV>

vTenebr
12-21-2004, 02:09 AM
I think more people are disturbed, not because there are issues with the class. I think the "You guys totally suck and are absolutely worthless" was a horrible approach.And if anyone rebutted with "I do just fine, I don't have THAT many damned problems.. sure there are some, but I hold my own just fine" they're told they're liars, they don't know anything, and that they're 'noobs'. Yes, way to go. Insult people, berate them, ignore their personal experiences.. then tell them how wrong they are. Best way to get them to listen, I've heard.I *AM* a 30 SK (oh.. I bet 30 won't be high enough now that I've said that. Next it'll be we have to be 35.. or 40.. or 50 to "have played the class long enough to know") Am I experiencing some problems with taunt? I am, but if I do my skills and work my mojo, I can regain agro most of the time. Even from an overnuking wizard or a key spammer level 33 Assassin. I've grouped with people higher, I've grouped with people lower. The only person I COULDN'T pull agro from was the berzerker, whom the DEVS have said have too much agro from a broken skill. (which WILL be fixed)So while we may have some issues, I don't think we're 'broken' to the point of being unplayable and worthless. If your friends are SOOOO angry they stomped their feet, took their balls, and went home rather than stick it out and put some more effort into the class.. I have no sympathy for them. Tell them to reroll as another class. We don't need them, nor do we need one of their "friends" coming here and telling fully functional, active, useful people who are enjoying their class that they're stupid, clueless noobs because they don't feel the same as you.

Haf
12-21-2004, 02:20 AM
<DIV>Amen vTenebrae<BR></DIV>

Murfer
12-21-2004, 03:18 AM
<DIV>Vten, you're the only SK I've seen (in this thread) to date I believe that is of a level to make a judgement on this and coming to the conclusion that most things are fine....that's ok, and it's your decision to make.  However, my post, whether you guys like it or not, is supported by multiple high level SK's in this very thread that have supported what I've said and agree that the class needs some serious looking into.  If that isn't enough for you guys who haven't gotten to their level yet to judge, I don't know what is...it's as if you want to stay in this safe little cuccoon of denial thinking everything is just fine.....  In fact, I think Kenebrog, who is on Guk, and is level 36, started another thread similar to this, which has even more supporting high level SK arguments.   You can bring a horse to water....  blah blah blah.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think this thread has gone as far as it's usefulness can go.  Flame on gents.  Hope they fix things for ya.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Murferoo on <span class=date_text>12-20-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:21 PM</span>

EDG
12-21-2004, 03:55 AM
<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=2374" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=2374</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>go read.  zerkers talking about losing aggro.  zerkers talking about who makes a better tank.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i'll say it again, go troll someone elses forum.  Maybe your own class forum.  Find out why wardens are sub-par healers as compared to the other healer classes maybe...</DIV>

vTenebr
12-21-2004, 05:48 AM
I didn't say most things are "fine", I said I'm still playable even WITH the problems that we have. It just takes a bit more effort. Will it be fixed? Perhaps, but if it's not I know I'm still a valuable, useful, contributing member of my group.I didn't appreciate being told otherwise.

VampirePrince
12-21-2004, 06:58 AM
lvl 34 SK here, I hardly ever have problems with my tanking. In a group at my level my HP reaches above 3k, my AC around 2300 and fully buffed of course. Mostly I start off with a taunt HO against grouped mobs (using a taunt AE to finish the HO) then the mobs are glued to me. But to make them stick even more I throw off an unholy alliance or another group 2min buff because that sends out even more aggro. After that I use two kinds of spells that affects all mobs within a range. Might taunt once or twice individual creatures in a fight but if I keep up a steady flow of hits (keeping power of course so I can chain pull if needed, take any adds that might show or save the party while it runs off) then I don't have to taunt much at all. However I noticed a few aggro problems with people who love to hit the mob before the tank does, such as scouts, they can ruin the tanks attempt from the start to build up strongest aggro. It's not our fault though. We indeed have the abilities to keep aggro and nail it to ourselves. Other classes need to understand what hate is and what spells they are using that causes hate rises (how much and yada yada). It takes teamwork, you have to talk to eachother. Far too many groups don't talk, they are XP blinded. I'm always trying to get a happy mood in the group and right away you see the people who might cause problems. They can be powergamers who doesn't look at the screen while fighting, just press a few buttons. Or they can be other classes who nuke constantly without caring. Theres alot of different persons out there. Solve any potential disagreements before a battle. If the scout is a rich one and maybe got 10 adept 3 attacks, while the tank haven't invested that much moneyin his/her taunts it's not weird that the scout have to know what hes doing. It's all about strategy... when I tell a mage how to heal or a scout how to fight, we're all doomed. Let each and every tank find his/her way, you'll see soon enough the small stars glowing on the sky <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Roukl
12-21-2004, 07:11 AM
<DIV>Ok the problem isn't with the class particularly, its with the player/groups. I'll explain so bare with me. Ok each "tank" class has various ways to get agro, ours is a taunt style, most likely weaker than some of the other classes sure. This doesn't have to be a disadvantage if the rest of the group know how to assist when the sk class is tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok heres what i mean there are 2 yes 2 ways to assist :-</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>/target <ma name> </U> this will automatically engage the player on the same target as the MA . <U>This IS NOT </U>the way to assist an SK. Why I hear you say ? Well agro is all about hate vs the mob . So you uses your /target hotkey and bam u nuke / hit / bash for more damage than the sk's first hit or even just hit before the sk and you are now top of the agro pile. Now the SK has to over damage you to become top of the hate list or increase hate with his taunt line which is weak. The poor sk will be fighting a losing battle to regain agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>/assist <ma name></U> ok so this takes a little more co operation from the group but makes the sk a far more affective ma. Why I hear you ask ? Well <STRONG>/assist</STRONG> will not auto engage you on the target so the MA gets those few needed seconds to build hate. That added with some well times taunts is enough for the Sk to keep the mob interested in only hitting him. <U>THIS IS</U> the way to make the sk tank effective. I usually have a<STRONG> /g assist me with %t NOW</STRONG> key to prompt the group to hit their attack buttons. Works great hold agro no problem cleric has a easy job healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I suggest you try it and you will see a 100% or more improvement on the sk's ability to keep agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

za
12-21-2004, 11:05 AM
<DIV>hiya ^_^</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>34 almost 35 sk here, and I wouldn't change my class for nothing =D i rarely ever lose aggro and when I do its normally one of the reasons vamp princess mentioned above... so really other than a few bork'd spells, which every class has im sure, I think were doing just fine...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>O=('.'Q)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lurin</DIV>

Kulpr
12-21-2004, 03:13 PM
good post rouklav. I play a 24 bruiser and recently rolled up a crusader only lvl 15 so far. But with both classes if I want to hold aggro that is basically what has to happen. If i don't get a chance to deal some initial dmg holding aggro can sometimes become difficult. This holds true even with my bruiser who has really good DPS. An important part in holding aggro of multiple mobs is to use aoe's to get that extra bit of dmg on them that no one else should have dealt yet. Even though I don't know for sure i predict that the sk's aoe dot's should help a great deal to accomplish this.As far as SK's being totally gimped I'm having a tough time seeing this but since my highest is only 24 it is a possibility. From what I see right now though is SK's make much better tanks then bruisers for 6 man groups.

WuphonsReach
12-21-2004, 06:30 PM
If I could change one thing (well maybe more then one):Taunt/Shout/Inflame should be changed slightly. I would like to see them have different effects based on your position on the hate list. If you're already at the top, let them do their current amount of aggro. But if you're not top position, it would be useful to have them do triple aggro.So you wouldn't get runaway benefit by spamming taunt/shout, but instead saving it for when needed after you lose aggro.The SK class is far from broken. It's just not dead-easy to hold aggro as it was in EQ1 and takes a bit more skill and teamwork. A few tweaks in the aggro department would be enough for most of us.(The only player I have trouble with is a scout. Fortunately, he's my brother and is very good about watching aggro.)

RogueS
12-21-2004, 09:08 PM
<DIV>so whats the answer:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>makes us massive DPS equivalent with berserker / Bruiser ?   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

RogueS
12-21-2004, 09:08 PM
<DIV>so whats the answer:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>makes us massive DPS equivalent with berserker / Bruiser ?   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  </DIV>

Shadame
12-21-2004, 10:40 PM
<DIV>I'll just add in again here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now, yes, there is a problem with SK taunts. One may be missing all together (lvl 23 one).  However, I don't feel that it is such a gigantic problem that its worth flaming over. It's not game breaking; it just makes things more difficult for now. I'm sure that the devs are aware (If not before, I'm sure someone has seen this hot thread) and will most likely fix it. And hopefully Lucan's Pact skeleton / undead form illusion as well.</DIV>

megatra
12-21-2004, 11:45 PM
<DIV>I am lvl 25 and so far I love the SK. I can hold aggro when I need to and just damage when I need to.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't tell you how many cleric's I've saved with Graven Embrace (or how many Pally's I've FD'd just for the hell of it)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>HP's are in the higher end as well as defense.. I can't complain. When I get high enough I'll probably start an alt.. maybe a monk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But for now I'm happy with SK, if they "fixed" the SK class I would just feel like I have an advantage over everyone <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

12-21-2004, 11:46 PM
<DIV>Have no trouble holding agro, if I'm MT and supposed to take it.....</DIV> <DIV>Have no trouble taking agro if a silly finger wiggler decides to get a little, well, overzealous....</DIV> <DIV>Have no trouble being MA to a MT,and lending my AC, support and damage such as it is, to the cause. Will also happily pull, and surrender agro to another if that's what the group dynamics call for.</DIV> <DIV>My bf, plays Inquisitor, says I'm no harder or easier to heal than any other similarly equipped/leveled fighter class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><shrug></DIV> <DIV>Maybe the play style isn't adapting to EQ2. I don't know what the trouble is. I ahve no more/less issues with my class than anyone else I talk to about theirs. We all have good and poor points that dev has given us. But I'm having a blast, and will play this as far as I can. I just have to take a little vaca and level up my rogue, so she can go along for some o the fun. Even if it means I'm the only puller at that point.</DIV>

Hooster
12-22-2004, 12:50 AM
<DIV>...yea, flame bait post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I made lvl 21 SK last night.  I was playing MA with a healer and mage I had never met on the beach in Nek Forest smacking the crabs.  They asked is I was comfortable using HOs.  I was so pleased.  We discussed how I should open up, and use my area attacks and shout to generate agro against all 3 yellow crabs, or two ^ yellow crabs.  I would triger my macro that says "---->Starting HO in 3 secs..."  The healer also set up a macro that said something like "------Ok to HO------" to let me know he had completed his heals.  The HOs flew!  I would ward when the third wheel would come up, helping maintain hate, reduce the load on the healer, and add additional damage while the other two finished the HO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In 5 hours, we gained about 75% exp to the next level.  We laughed about different characters we had played in EQ1 (I was a beta tester way back when).  We had one bad pull when I backed up too far, and the healer healed me up, and gained agro.  I used graven embraced him, but he poped up and healed again right away.  He had never had GE cast on him before (my first time using it too).  We talked about it, and how it should have worked, and moved on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have never seen a group work so well together before.  These guys were both in the same guild and had played together many times before, you could tell.  I am an officer in our guild, and tried to recruit them.  We laughed and speculated what other HOs we could unlock if we had a scout class with the group.  At the end of the night, we added each other to our friends list, and they both commented that I played the BEST TANK they had ever played with, not just the best SK.  I laughed, and told them about this post in particular, and how SKs can't tank.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My take....If you play your class well, you maximize it's strengths, and avoid it's weaknesses.  If the healers heal too early, or the mages nuke too soon, yes, I can and do loose agro.  Just about any class out there can play poorly, and screw up a pull.  The way we were playing last night, we vastly out performed a similar group of four players I was in the night before, with eveyone spamming their specials (there were so many broken encounters and deaths).  A good group who knows how to play does not need the best DPS, AC, Special spamming class to be sucessful, in fact, they can use the special abilities the other classes have to offer.  If our healer knew what I was doing with Graven Embrace, we would not have had one death the entire night.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shadow Knights broken?  Not in my book!  Just learn how your class works, find people who are smart enough to work together, and your team will outperform any button spamming class out there.  Sucess in not having the highest DPS, or best taunts, or whining that class xyz is better than mine because mine is not the best at everything!  Enjoy a challenge and play a more difficult class.  Choose to play a Shadow Knight because it's not the easiest class out there, learn how to play it right, and be proud that you were able to succeed doing things the hard way!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps there is no SK outrage threads because if they are played right, there is nothing to be outraged about.  Of course there are areas that can use fine tuning.  For your friends that felt this class was so broken that they had to play another to be the most uber class, their loss.  I am pleased you visited our class thread, and shared your interest, and opinion of our class.  I hope you get the chance to play with a group that has a <EM>skilled</EM> SK in it some day.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

swampthing
12-22-2004, 12:56 AM
Excellent post hooster.I agree that the crux of some folks' problem is that they aren't playing a SK as a SK. Doesn't really matter what level they are doesn't mean they aren't a noob.

Hooster
12-22-2004, 01:18 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> swampthing wrote:<BR>Excellent post hooster.<BR><BR>I agree that the crux of some folks' problem is that they aren't playing a SK as a SK. Doesn't really matter what level they are doesn't mean they aren't a noob.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> 30 levels of experience does not equate to one level of experience repeated 30 times.

Thrustw
12-22-2004, 04:08 AM
<DIV>Or rather, a level 30 should not be the same as thirty level 1's, if you know what I mean.  I agree with your thoughts - it's all about how the SK is played.  If peeps approach it simply as "tank", well of course, there are going to be failures.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having "suffered" through the Blademaster (in DAoC) to 50, it's rather the same - accused of being a "half-tank", you learn to adapt to the character.  Fighter types should not always have to rush in, hold all agro, all the time, and do the most melee damage.  If that were the basic philosophy, the game would have only 4 classes - healer, caster, rogue, and fighter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The SK is about playing the strengths you have.  Of course, there will be weaknesses... but that makes playing one more challenging, and imho, more fun.  If I want click-and-bash, then sure, make something else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Those guys clearly are of that mentality - they went for the cool-sounding class name, but simply wanted a no-brainer fighter class.</DIV>

lilchipp
12-22-2004, 08:02 PM
i used to have trouble holding agro but on monday night i was asked to be MT something im not used to being i prefer assisting but i did it anyway, ONLY time i lost agro was to a wiz who nuked within secs of a pull the other tanks a zerker and another SK didnt even get close to pulling agro i made lvl 24-25 in around 4-5 hours i started with 5% the thing ill say is you cant expect to hold agro at 20+ with app 1-3 sorry it just dont cut it too much dmg is being dealt and they dont raise your hate level enough go buy adepts for your taunts it does make a hell of alot of difference and like its been said by a few higher level SK's its about how you play your class its a class that demands to be played smart or youll get your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] kicked stick with it SK's and dont believe everything you read our class is great sure it has its flaws so do other classes a very happy lvl 25 SK

Bylb
12-22-2004, 08:34 PM
<BR> <DIV>It is a problem that appear after lvl 30, and from reading the repply i see most low lvl sk have no prob (and they shouldn't else they are doing soemthing wrong) but most SK past 30 got this prob. At 36 we got a new area taunt that is mroe than welcome but still got agro issues, i am currently 38 and still lose agro without reason, and please avoid dumb post saying i lack skill or other clueless posts (most of them came from early 20s sk wich made me laugh).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sk were hybrid in EQ1 like i read earlier, should we remember you that SK were the best agro class in EQ1 or you missed this part? Sure we weren't best dps or tank (like in EQ2) but at less we had this agro bonus that made us really usefull in raid situation and good enough to xp group with (this part doesn't match with EQ2 sk at all).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are a weak dps/tank that's all fine but if we get no main bonus (other than FD and other little trick, each class got their own little bonus) then something is wrong, and pointing it at the devs is somethign important, flaming it doesn't help at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you didn't experience this problem because you are a little too low lvl yet, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You really need to jump 10 floors to know it will hurt? even if someone told you before what will happen? are you stupid? (asking the flamers, ignore htis comment if you aren't one of them)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not sure what's up with the SK community but it isn't the first time i see important posts being flamed by low lvl sk, some about broke spell come to memory, you guys need to grow up a little and stop hurting your own class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Flame away little troll.</DIV>

Shadame
12-22-2004, 09:39 PM
<DIV>Once you get past 25 it becomes more of an issue. It is a problem and it needs to be fixed. But I don't think there needs to be "outrage" about it.</DIV>

Murfer
12-22-2004, 11:07 PM
<DIV>The outrage is that if you compare the SK class to it's peers, it comes up short in almost every single category...to me, as a healer, I am biased in that bar none, the thing I am looking for most in a tank is the ability to hold aggro....SK is by far, without question, the fighter class least able to do that...especially as you continue to climb in levels.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Dracoviol
12-22-2004, 11:14 PM
quit trolling and get a life

knightk
12-22-2004, 11:18 PM
<DIV>Murferoo, are your 2 sk friends going to post here?  I'd like to see their take on this 'outrage.'</DIV>

DUNN
12-22-2004, 11:30 PM
<DIV>Thanks for letting us know that you Sk's under 30 have no problem holding aggro, i didn't either.  Now that i am 33 i am loosing it a bit more than when i was 31 and 32.  It is not a major problem but i am noticing the more I lvl the more frequent it is becoming.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In fights with multiple mobs is where the problem lies not in sngle mob pulls.  I can hold single mobs wihout even thinking about it.  But when 2 or more come i know at least 1 will turn on another group member. Mostly the healer. This is with warding myself,  doing all my ae moves and sometimes even group buffing; even though i casted it already.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am trying all the tricks to hold aggro and right now i stil; loose it. No it is not all the time but enough for it to become annoying.  I don't know how long the groups are going to accept me being MT if the aggro holding keeps getting worse. BTW  i have been MT since I was LVL 6 so yes i do know it requires more than plain taunting. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dunnott</DIV> <DIV>SK of Malicious Legion</DIV>

Coter
12-23-2004, 12:25 AM
Gotta say there has to be something wrong with the way your friends are playing. I can tank, and tank very well, sure I don't do a lot of damage, but there is rarely a time when I'm tanking that I lose aggro. Maybe your friends aren't taunting right, maybe your friends aren't using their abilities to their full potential. In the games nowadays you know have to know how to play the class to be effective at it, and not only know how to play the class, but play your role. I've been in groups with only one healer who is 5 levels below me, with me as the main tank and they never have a problem keeping me healed, even against orange ^^ mobs.

Murfer
12-23-2004, 12:39 AM
<DIV>And what level arew you Coteri? Can you provide link to profile?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would really like to see those who are in the higher end game who can supposedly hold aggro over all these other high level SK's who cant.....as a whole, those who are saying that everything is fine are not in the higher end game, which frankly, makes your input on the whole thing rather moot. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yes, will try and get buddies to see this thread.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Murfer
12-23-2004, 12:47 AM
<DIV>BTW, Dunn made a very important statement, and one which I have previously forgot to address as well...in single pull encounters, SK's do "ok"...not always, but fairly ok....in group encounters, it's all over.</DIV>

Murfer
12-23-2004, 12:50 AM
<DIV>Ebonite...level up to a point where it matters, then express your opinions.  Thx champ!</DIV>

swampthing
12-23-2004, 01:58 AM
As a tank class the last healing class i'd want healing me is a druid, so where's your druid outrage thread? Seriously, i don't think i'd pull if a druid was the only healer. The regen is laughable.Why the hell are you still here pushing this stupid obnoxious thread over and over and trolling up a flamefest? You aren't even an SK and are going on hearsay.Btw, you've never grouped with a monk or bruiser i take it in regards to aggro?

Murfer
12-23-2004, 02:13 AM
<DIV>I tank with a bruiser every night....he does incredible damage and holds aggro just about perfectly. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the Druid line, you obviously haven't a clue, lol....if anything the Warden line of Instant Heal + HOT  is probably overpowered, with our regens being about right, ....My Regen does 1250 HOT in 30 secs for 100 power, my Natures Caress does 1000 instant heal and 1250 HOT for 94 power (mind you, this is with a Master 1) with the ability to recast this every 4 seconds I think it is? ... and Natures Embraces does an instant heal of 850 with another 800 HOT.  Healing isn't an issue at all haha...and we're so unbelievably mana efficient it's just nuts...in terms of other areas, I can stay on par with our level 40 wizard...almost...dishing out 550 in nukes every 4 seconds ..(again, have a master 1 in this) , dot for around 700, can group evac, sow, damage shield (for 25-30), debuff agility,...add offensive buffs, power buffs, blah blah blah...oh yah, can also turn into the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]giest illusion in the game...Bambi and Fairy girl....rawr......played an inquisitor in beta and just wasn't happy with it at all....couldn't have possibly picked a funner/more robust class than I have....but shh, don't tell SOE ok? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In case your wondering, the equivalent of SK's in the priest world are Fury's....they are so borked in the healing department it's just nuts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The level 50 fury on our server has a 1200 regen I think, and then 2 instant heals, with no HOTS...one heals for 750 i think, the other for 550....absolutely a shame.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To put it in perspective...with me as sole healer at level 38, and the rest of my group being level 37-39, I could heal us just fine in Permafrost killing level 48-49 double up reds...with the occasional add to spice things up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, since we're done with comparing genitalia...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*poof*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[Removed for Content], starting to actually enjoy this thread...at first I thought some of you were loons, now i KNOW some of you are loons.  ahaha.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Murferoo on <span class=date_text>12-22-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:17 PM</span>

Adonae_Perpet
12-23-2004, 02:21 AM
Apparently most of you just couldn't help but poke your heads under the bridge?/move along

To
12-23-2004, 04:27 AM
<DIV>Im one of Murfs SK friends he talks about, I skimmed through alot of the post and the valuable post are by those in the high 20-30+ game. For those of you who just turned 22 or what ever, respond back here when you hit 30 and let me know what you think then. As for me and my friend being a noob, I have more experience on the tip of my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] then what many of you will ever have. Thx.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sks are a broken class, for those of you who are unaware... the closer you get too 50 the more crappy and uncomplete the class becomes. Lots of useless spells, lots of absurd spells that require massive ammounts of power for very little dmg output. Of course there are lots of broken/uncomplete early beta spells as well. At 40 we get a pet that does nothing but follow you around, literally you can not tell it too defend you or attack, its like a wizards cat except it has a massive ammount of HP. The last pet we get I believe is in 40 as well, a 44 sk friend of mine tells me it hits for 35 dmg on average and of course only last a few seconds. That is just one example of a completely untested class. They just gave us a bunch of random crap and thats it. As for our Harmtouch line.... So usless im not going too even go into it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Gearwise we got the shaft, when I started my SK I was under the impression I would have a variety of weapons too choose from like other Fighter classes, that was so far from the truth. When I came too find out that I would not be allowed the same weapon and gear abilities Zerks/Guardians got, I figured my spells must make up for this... the levels poured in, lvl 30 rolls around, Ive yet too see it. So I start too break away from the game, I eventually find myself at 36 now, and luckily there is a lack of tanks on my server probably due too the fact most of them rolled paladins/sks and quit before they hit 30 which is a fact. If there wasnt I would never find a group. Im not as eager too level up as I once was. I can still fill the roll of a tank and keep aggro, but I stay OOM constantly trying too do so. My buffs are horrible when compared too other classes... The only thing good was the Horse at lvl 20, its all down hill from there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Blow me if you think other wise.</DIV>

Ldymacbe
12-23-2004, 05:03 AM
He's right, IMO. At 32, I can still hold agro, but its taking more and more mana to do it, and I've noticed this trend happened over the course of the last 4 levels or so. It is beginning to get a little frustrating. Disease cloud is a fun spell--for soloing and completing HO's, but its resisted too much to be truly reliable in a group, and the AE taunt is...getting weak. I didn't expect this game to be like EQ, in that we were the agro champs, but I did expect, as a tank, that I would be able to at least keep the mobs attention once I've captured it. Thus far, I've been the main tank in our guild groups because I've been the highest level, best equipped, and been able to keep the monster's focus. Lately though, I've been worried about keeping aggro every time we group. Not a good feeling at all.I like SK's...and as unhappy as I am to admit it, I'm beginning to agree with the original poster. We need some attention to be able to execute the role. I don't want to be better than the other fighter-types, but I do want to have parity with them, and I feel that slipping away.Oh, and in case anyone is wondering, I play Reav on Najena.I'm editing this to make one more point...The original poster here, while not an SK, has made some very good points and been polite about it. I'd like to thank him for bringing up the issue. I almost never post on these boards, but I do lurk on 'em, and it was good to see a post discussing this issue, as I'd been thinking about it for a while.<p>Message Edited by Ldymacbeth on <span class=date_text>12-22-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:24 PM</span>

Shadame
12-23-2004, 05:06 AM
Well, I guess we'll just see if this gets addressed or not in the next series of patches.

Odi7
12-23-2004, 05:22 AM
that uh...sucks >.<

Baronzz
12-23-2004, 08:38 AM
<DIV> <DIV>Well I'm the other friend. I just skimmed through alot of this post for the first time just now. Read most of the responses... trying to ignore most of the flame posts as I went on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well here's my two cents.... for those of you who say "It's you're playstyle", "Just deal with it", "They must be noobs", "Druids suck", etc... and you are in you're mid 20's and below I just have one thing to say....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You don't know what the hell you're talking about, you're useless, get in the back of the bus and [Removed for Content] k thnx.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toot and I have played these games for over 5 years now and we both know what we're doing. In fact we have both been told on several occassions playing our SK's that we were the best tanks our groups have ever had... no lie.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SK's post level 28'sh definitely need some work. There is a definite formula to holding agro and controlling a combat situation as well as what makes a group work well together. If you know what you're doing you know that there are several elements that go into it. I'm just going to bullet some of these points / the current weakness of the class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. We have either the worst or the 2nd worst dps in the game amongst fighters. This equals less agro and less desirability to have the SK in a group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Our taunts (especially our group taunt is underpowered). This equals less control of a combat situation and obviously less agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Our damage, group buffing, and taunting skills take a larger pro rata portion of our power than other fighter classes in general. This equals less overall agro over time and more downtime in a group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. Instead of getting new skills to replace skills that very badly need to be upgraded we get useless skills that do absolutely nothing but add some cursory benefit to our groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>5. We need more healing in general than other tanks which compounds the problem of trying to maintain agro. Especially in a group encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>6. We MUST use a shield if we are tanking or we go down like a naked enchanter when fighting high level mobs therefore our weapons are extremely limited. We basically get 1H swords and hammers, that's it.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>7. There seems to be an overabundance of SK's on our server (GUK) and an SK doesn't have a prayer getting into a high level group unless they are a tank and even then they will be a high level groups last choice for a tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To finish this off I would like to say this. I REALLY wanted to continue playing my SK. Toot was like 2nd to hit 30 on the server, I was like 7th. I loved my SK til I hit around 28. Then I just was going nuts with frustration over playing it. It's one thing to not let things bother you. It's another to know you are doing everything in you're power to play you're character right and doing all the right things to maintain agro. Pulling with dots / taunts... taunting even as you are running the mob back, immediately group buffing to add agro, spamming high damage attacks / taunts / high agro spells to gain agro... only to lose it on the second heal. That's just ridiculous....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what did I do? I started a new charachter and honestly.... it broke my heart to give up on my SK but there just wasn't anything I could do. I felt it was more important to be able to contribute to a group and feel that you are contributing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And for those of you who flamed Murf man I just gotta say you're real morons for doing so. Here the guy genuinely comes to our forum to help and you flame him. That's like telling you're attorney off in the middle of a court case... idiots.</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Baronzz on <span class=date_text>12-22-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:39 PM</span>

N7649U
12-23-2004, 08:51 AM
<DIV>Regardless of who is right or wrong, or who is 30 or below 30, If you like the class and have fun just play the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] game.  Murf, you and EQlive elite friends can go take your "help" someplace else, until you came along this forum was productive.  The game is still too young.  To give up on a class this early is foolish.  The fact there is a lot of SK is a good thing meaning they wont be ignored.  So like I said earlier, take your so called "help" else where.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

lilchipp
12-23-2004, 06:26 PM
ok im lvl 25 apparently this means i know [Removed for Content] all because your higher lvl woopy [Removed for Content] do, your ever so good friend came here dissin sk in GENERAL so as far as im concerened he was rippin into every SK 20-50 and dont tell me i dont know nothing i being playing these games for 7 years so i assure you i know plenty until this thread got going we didnt identify that there was a problem till the higher level SK's said there taunts werent working, yet all the sub 30 sk said they did fine, ok theres your problem taunts post lvl 30 arent functioning effectively are ppl using apps or adedpts ? so before you start telling people to basically [Removed for Content] off and your noobs and you know nothing, just because they arent pro gamers like does NOT mean they do not know how to play there class so stop being such a condescending [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]

_Baal_
12-23-2004, 07:12 PM
<blockquote><hr>Murferoo wrote:<DIV>Granted, I haven't looked too hard, but I'm shocked to not find more threads mentioning how terrible the SK class is.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I'm level 37 Warden, and since level 20, a SK is the least desirable clas to have in my group by far...what makes this harder is that 2 of my good friends are SK's.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I just can't believe how gangked this class is.... Can't hold aggro, can't dish out damage, can't taunt, can't tank very well, etc... just mind blowing to me.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Please understand, I am not here to razz you guys at all...I support a major rebalancing for you guys as I just think it's terrible to see any class in such bad shape.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>But where's the outrage??</DIV><hr></blockquote>man your friends must suckzerkers can hold aggro, this is true. how ever they sure as hell cant take a hit.guardians can hold aggro, they do [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] for dmg.brawlers and dish out dmg, but they too seem to fall very quick in a fight.we on the other hand can take a beating and dish it out. your friends must suck at life and this game. and on that note ill finish with....YOUR A DRUID, [Removed for Content] M8.

StargazeOblivion
12-23-2004, 07:23 PM
<DIV>Overall you may have some good points. But you really, REALLY need to work on your people skills. All three of you. How are people supposed to side with you and understand your point of view if you feel the need to insult anyone that may have a counter-argument?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"As for me and my friend being a noob, I have more experience on the tip of my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] then what many of you will ever have. Thx." ~ Toot</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"You don't know what the hell you're talking about, you're useless, get in the back of the bus and [Removed for Content] k thnx." ~ Baronzz</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Blow me if you think other wise." ~ Toot</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at these quotes. The last one is a clincher. It tells us right away you're just looking for an argument. You have some good points, but how the hell can you expect anyone to care at all about anything you had to say with an ending statement like that? And you can't understand why people are flaming you? Just wow. There's a HUGE difference between constructive criticism on how to fix the class and whining like a kid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Murf asked for an outrage thread. What? Outrage? You sure that's the right term to use? Yeah, kicking and screaming at the Devs will go far. You could've put together a list based on what your friends' experiences were and posted that. But no. You came here and told us how much we suck. Bravo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't respect anyone who can't respect others. You three have done nothing but insult others and claim how much better you are then us. Wonderful. That shows true maturity.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just go away; your criticism is unwelcomed here.</DIV>

vwlsskng
12-23-2004, 08:54 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> StargazeOblivion wrote:<BR> <DIV>Overall you may have some good points. But you really, REALLY need to work on your people skills. All three of you. How are people supposed to side with you and understand your point of view if you feel the need to insult anyone that may have a counter-argument?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"As for me and my friend being a noob, I have more experience on the tip of my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] then what many of you will ever have. Thx." ~ Toot</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"You don't know what the hell you're talking about, you're useless, get in the back of the bus and [Removed for Content] k thnx." ~ Baronzz</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Blow me if you think other wise." ~ Toot</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at these quotes. The last one is a clincher. It tells us right away you're just looking for an argument. You have some good points, but how the hell can you expect anyone to care at all about anything you had to say with an ending statement like that? And you can't understand why people are flaming you? Just wow. There's a HUGE difference between constructive criticism on how to fix the class and whining like a kid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Murf asked for an outrage thread. What? Outrage? You sure that's the right term to use? Yeah, kicking and screaming at the Devs will go far. You could've put together a list based on what your friends' experiences were and posted that. But no. You came here and told us how much we suck. Bravo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't respect anyone who can't respect others. You three have done nothing but insult others and claim how much better you are then us. Wonderful. That shows true maturity.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just go away; your criticism is unwelcomed here.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You know, the reason I posted what I did earlier in the thread was for the very reason you've pointed out. It really irritated me to see noobs call people noobs. And when I say that I mean this game is barely two months old and already we have self-proclaimed experts. You want to flaunt the fact that you've been playing MMORPGs for six years or that you're already level 35? Big f**king deal. Why does everything have to be a [Removed for Content] contest?</P> <P>I've been playing RPGs, CRPGs, MMORPGs, MUDs, MOOs, et cetera, for the past 25 years. Does that mean I have to make people feel like dirt? No. If you're such a goddamned seasoned player, then you should realize how new this game is and how many changes have yet to be implemented. An outrage thread? Yeah, buddy boy, there are outrage threads for every class of adventurer and artisan on every board. Everything needs to be fixed as far as one person or another is concerned. But how self-righteous are you to come to another class's board and tell them that they should be angry because they are broken? Do you not see how this might offend a great many people?</P> <P>Jesus.</P> <p>Message Edited by vwlssknght on <span class=date_text>12-23-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:56 AM</span>

Kno
12-23-2004, 10:06 PM
<DIV>Maby people play an SK just becouse they love being an SK and it is fun.  I can live with broken powers, and not being as good as some other class, as long as I am haveing fun at the class as I am playing.   Becouse that is why I play a game in the first place, to have fun.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would think that you don't see alot of complaints about it here, is becouse others, why the see what needs to be inproved, find being as SK just as fun, and know down the line the problems will be fixed, and don't see anyreason to just complain about it, as doing such does not get anything done.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At least not on these bords, if a bug is found, just send in a bug report in game, and then continue having fun with your class you chose.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it comes to a point where it is no longer fun for you to play, you can always chose another class, or stop playing.</DIV>

Ka'gor
12-23-2004, 11:00 PM
<DIV>Iam kind of lost here, I have been following this thread since it was started and have been hessitant on replying but I thought I would put my 2 cents in anyway.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am an SK and when I started the class I loved it, I have played eq live for 4 years and have played jsut about every class to 65 and above, beside enchanter and mage.  My preference are melee class's <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  But what I was starting is that the SK was a blast at first, group invites all the time and not the type that is, O well no tanks lfg but an sk is.  The type of invites that makes you feel wanted.  The main reason I started an SK is because of my xp with them in Live, how well they held agro and how decent they tanked.  I didnt want to be the basic axe toteing muscle head war you all know and have learned to hate lo. Well now as I have progressed in lvls its getting harder and harder to find a group, and not because of lack of ability iam hopeing. </DIV> <DIV>   It jsut seems to be an overall consensius that the sk are lacking in all areas.  I really hate to tank even when I have higher AC and hp.  I have total heck holding agro and I  blow ALL my mind pool on constant spamming of argo specials.  Its sad when you do an HT for over 400 and you dont get agro.  I am a DE and chose the inv spell thinking it would be awesome, I was compareing it in my head to a cleric DA spell, but it sucks, heck it takes longer to cast then it actually lasts.  Lol  Anyway I just have to agree that SK are lacking and I dont think there really is a deference on your play style or your gear.  Its just hard as heck to hold agro and to even get a group.  I chose this because I wanted to be able to tank and be secondary class, I didnt want to feal like I did with my ranger in Live, jsut a bag of meat to fill a spot.  I guess I should have made a ranger this time around instead of an sk.  I have ben reading and reading these posts here trying to cull any info to help me out on teh agro situation and nothing has availed me.  So guess its back to my guardian alt.  I get more invites with him <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> sadly</DIV>

vTenebr
12-23-2004, 11:36 PM
Well, don't you know if they curse you out, insult you, and tell you how right they are makes it so. Cause if you disagree, you're a worthless noob who doesn't know the game and is nowhere near as experienced as they.I'm 31 and been playing RPGs since .. well a long [Removed for Content] time. (as poster had mentioned MUSH, MOO, MUD, etc). Does that mean I am better than you? Can I start calling anyone else who's waltzed into the world of RPGs only through EQ1, UO, or even Neverwinter Nights on AOL, noobs? (And don't start in with the lamer "no life" nonsense. If you think you can't play a game during some casual home time *AND* have a life too, who has the problem? Not me, I can do both just fine)Whether there are problems with a class or not. Don't get on a high horse and act superior. The rest of your arguments are completely lost and worthless at that point. If they WERE valid, you blew it with your snivveling, self important approach. I'm sure quite a LARGE number of us could have powered our way through the game and been 40 or higher, but we're not rushing. (I'm 30+ and have a 28 alchemist, I could have put the alch time into powering, but WHY?)You're not BETTER because you amped into "higher" levels. You don't KNOW more because you THINK you do. Learn that. It'll help you in life when you someday have a boss.

MF2K|Wh
12-24-2004, 12:01 AM
<DIV>It's all a matter of how well he plays his class. I get complimented all the time on my tanking abilities, and have a lot of in game friends that would have me tank rather than some other tank class.</DIV>

Murfer
12-24-2004, 12:05 AM
<DIV>Been quite some time since I've encountered such a large group of insecure people...lol</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Who is saying they are superior??  God...  unreal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whether we are at the higher end level of the game doesn't make us better than you or not....that is YOUR issue, not ours....what it DOES mean, is that because you haven't gotten to those levels, whether this game is new or not....you simply don't have the experience/knowledge to draw a conclusion.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Get over yourselves ffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And Vw....you especially....[Removed for Content]...poor guy....need someone to hold you?  Still haven't posted your profile link I see.</DIV>

Baronzz
12-24-2004, 01:09 AM
<DIV>ROFL, Huh ?!?!?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have some of you that responded even read the posts in this thread?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well let me some it up for you...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Murf presented a general question to our boards and provided you with general feedback that he and alot of us have experienced / heard in the 30+ game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Some people got insecure and flamed him because they took the post personally for some idiotic reason.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Most of the people that told him he was wrong (or worse yet, just insulted him), haven't even experienced this part of the game yet. (It's kinda like a guy who just learned how to change the oil in his car telling a mechanic how to fix a transmission.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. Most of the 30+ crowd that I have seen agreed in part or in total with what he had to say.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is one thing that I have absolutely no tolerance for and that's someone arguing a point from a postion of ignorance. Is anyone presenting a counter-argument here? I certainly haven't seen a valid one. Alot of these flame posts make you sound like politicians. You speak in generalities and make obscure comments which have no basis in anything... let alone facts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And to clarify one thing... my statement:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>"Well here's my two cents.... for those of you who say "It's you're playstyle", "Just deal with it", "They must be noobs", "Druids suck", etc... and you are in you're mid 20's and below I just have one thing to say....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You don't know what the hell you're talking about, you're useless, get in the back of the bus and [Removed for Content] k thnx."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(which was of course taken out of context and misquoted) was responding to people that have absolutely nothing constructive to say and no experience to even speak to the points we are making here.</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We really hated posters like you in beta and finally most of these types of posters went away... well the short bus is back... and in force. Did I respond in kind to the idiots? Hell yes I did and I'd do it again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For those of you who just respond with general insults or vague comments...</DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Make a point already !! Hell, I made one.... present you're counter-argument or go to freaking school and take a course in logic / critical thinking.</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here's the nickle summary... make a statement.... present facts supporting this statement... draw a conclusion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you don't bring these points up they will never be fixed. My first character in EQ 1 was a ranger and we had the same tired lame [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] types of responses when we brought up the issues in those forums. Well my friends... SK's are beginning to be the new EQ 2 ranger. What did I do in both cases? I created a character that was valuable to a group and I've always been happier for the decision.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm done with this... continue to flame if you like... I won't be back... but mark my words... when you're sitting on LFG all night in you're mid 30's remember these posts and how you chose to take them personally as oppossed to looking at them constructively.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

StargazeOblivion
12-24-2004, 01:56 AM
<DIV>No one was arguing the fact that the SK has a lot of buggy skills. We were arguing with you about how to get your point across without being a total [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"... when you're sitting on LFG all night in you're mid 30's remember these posts and how you chose to take them personally as oppossed to looking at them constructively."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you're paying attention to the SK forums you'd see someone made a post with a list of problems they have with the class and asked others for their opinions on how to improve the thread. You'll even see Murf posted in it. And if you pay closer attention you'd see that no one is flaming anyone! And why is that? Because the OP (who is an SK) politely asked what people thought about their SKs and people are responding accordingly. Notice there is no turning away someone's opinion due to their level. There is no name calling or insulting going on. That is called constructive. Murf had good intentions, he just went about it the wrong way.</DIV>

Odi7
12-24-2004, 03:34 AM
ppl here seem to missing the point completly... so he's a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] omg !! who gives a rat's [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].listen to what the people (sk's above 30 are saying...) I'm sure we all play this game for fun... but if SK is that bad that it can't function in a party, running around stuck at lvl 30 singing im a shadow knight might notstay fun for long. It seems to be some ppl are taking some things being said about a job they choose to play personally... Thatspretty [Removed for Content] [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. I like SK and playing my SK, but if something is wrong with teh job that I havent learned ofthen I can listen and recommend solutions. Simply ignoring problems till its too late, or till it effects you directly is not a good idea.

vTenebr
12-24-2004, 07:52 AM
And there are 30+ SKs in this thread saying that they are still enjoying the class and doing OK. There are some problems but they're not crippling.We were just appalled at how those < 30 were being treated. There's no reason for it. No one's opinion or thoughts are lesser because they haven't experienced it yet, they just haven't experienced it yet. I'm a 30+ SK and I don't sit on my [Removed for Content] LFG cause no one wants me. I do just fine with few problems. (didn't say zero, said few)I can tell you there are problems with our class.. or I can tell you your class is completely F'd up, worthless, and sucks. If you disagree, I can tell you you're a noob, don't talk til you matter, and that I'm way more uber than you and am like.. in the top 3 players of MY class on the server, so therefore me and my friends' opinions are more valid than yours.Which approach will you actually listen to?As for the three stooges.. that's not insecurity speaking. Those are actually things you said. You're all peurile little gits with delusions of self importance. Get over yourselves and try to approach people with some manners.<p>Message Edited by vTenebrae on <span class=date_text>12-23-2004</span> <span class=time_text>06:55 PM</span>

Murfer
12-24-2004, 08:42 AM
<DIV>Vten, get a grip.  If you have a care to, which you probably don't, read this entire thread again.  Read my posts carefully.  They are for the most part, very polite and supportive with the intent of wanting SOE to improve your class.  I was immediately attacked, told my friends don't know how to play (laff) and otherwise dismissed as being a noob.  I didn't say these things, you and your gang of a's's'hats did.  As I hadn't qualified my post earlier I did in a later post, informing ya'll that we're for the most part near the front of the leveling experience at the moment.  This of course went over great.....oooh, they have indicated their level.  SHOOT ON SIGHT !!  God forbid....I mean really, it's just been positively ridiculous the reaction you guys have had.  And again, seriously, go add them up...the comments from the high level SK's saying their is a serious issue from the high level SK's saying their isn't.....10 to 1 at least.....and the comments from the lower level SK's (Is that bad btw?  That I called them lower level SK's?  Does that make people feel less than?  Should I sugar coat it maybe?  Would Less Seasoned yet Stalwart, Proud and Mighty Adventurers of the Shadow Knight class fit better for the faint of hearts??)....are all stating what we already know....there isn't much of an issue under level 25...for any class mind you...Up to level 25 is where most of the beta testing happened anyway, so that makes sense...but the HIGHER level game, which they have not ADVENTURED IN YET (gag) is a completely different story....of course, THEY WOULDN'T KNOW THIS....yet feel the need to get their undies in a bunch regardless. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Helloooooo Paragraph!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, I'm done as well....was fun....when you guys can level up, realize your class is in need of SERIOUS attention, and can collectively remove your heads from the sand...I expect an apology written in YOUR blood good sir, a monument to be built in my honor, Wardens to be your healer of choice, and 1 night in bed with your future brides.  HUZZAH.  With that, I bid you good night, and may Santa give you insecure ninny's much coal in your stockings.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*POOF*</DIV>

Rabd
12-24-2004, 10:17 AM
Just because there are problems with the SK class, doesn't mean you're not an obnoxious jerk.

VampirePrince
12-24-2004, 03:05 PM
lvl 35 SK last night, was in Runnyeye drungeon with a group. I did my normal thing, maybe played for an hour and thirty minutes. Lost aggro maybe two times against a pitmaster (because I was busy chatting and they are no real threat anymore) and a warboar (same reason). But i got the aggro back on me. I didn't see any problems, it worked out just fine. I still beleive its not the spells fault that some can't hold agggro, it's the people in the group that lacks information about 1. how tankers get aggro nailed onto them 2. how hate work with their own spells and abilities.

Asmodai
12-24-2004, 06:56 PM
<DIV>Hello guys!   My name is Hellion I'm the highest level shadowknight on the crushbone server at level 38.  I do have a few concerns about the shadowknight class but none of what murferoo was talking about.  In my personal opinion the shadowknight class is what it is, the happy medium between tanking power and dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First thing I'm going to do is eviscerate murferoo's argument.  Here's how.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tanking...At level 38 I have 2500hp and 2200ac unbuffed I haven't met very many tanks with anymore than a standard deviation of hp and ac above and below me.  These stats are all gear related anyhow and don't really have much to do in combat except for the numbers.  As far as the numbers go I take hits as well as a guardian.  The end.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aggro.... Ok I'll give a little I can't really keep aggro on groups of mobs well, but I'm not designed too, My methodology on group mobs is to hit them with our AE Taunt first (Which is Shriek of Terror I think) then burn both of our ae damages (cruel intent and swarming spirits) this helps with aggro especially the lifetap as it counts with "healing" aggro.  Immediately after those aes are all down I make sure my party knows to burn.  You have a small amount of time in which to finish off the mobs ina group encounter while your aggro will hold.  Sadly we don't keep group aggro as well as guardians but we compensate in our own way...damage.   as you finish off each "member" of the group mob you utilize your fast recast/damaging taunt (Disease Cloud) and you'll pretty much secure your aggro that way.  Basically you kill the mobs off before they have a chance to do much damage to other people, if you should happen to lose aggro before they're all dead utilizing your ward, intervene, or evasive maneuvers will insure that your casters are just fine.  As far as single target mobs, with a combination of disease cloud and shriek of terror I don't lose aggro often if I do the ward heal aggro puts it right back on me almost instantly, or in extreme cases burning rescue.  No we can't keep aggro 100% of the time, but no one can 100% of the time.  Sometimes our single target taunt can be resist, upgrading to adept version of the spell lower this incredibly, with app3 I can taunt mobs that're 6 levels over me to a degree, if you're fighting something that high you're going to get resists regardless (also the high power cost of Disease cloud comes with the added 78 damage I do with it every time, which is in tick form, meaning more aggro bec of dot)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dps/Utility....Our dps is a happy medium between Bruisers and Guardians which I consider to be the two polar opposites in the "Tank list of dps".  The Tanking/DPS ability of each class is mirrored on the opposite end by another class ie in a list of Tanks 1-6 and Dps 1-6 this is how I would rate each class</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tanking: 1. Guardian 2. Paladin 3. Shadowknight 4. Berserker 5. Monk 6. Bruiser</DIV> <DIV>Dps:       1. Bruiser 2. Monk 3. Berserker 4. Shadowknight 5. Paladin 6. Guardian</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EVERY fighter can do double duty.... as a tank or dps, just some classes are more inclined to one or the other and suffer in their ability to perform that other job.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also I think SKs are the only class (maybe paladins?) to get all the utility buffs we get while dpsing...While I'm in a dps role I can give 3 defensive buffs to the tank (which massively effect his damage taken), I can debuff mobs once to agility (Tainted Caress) and twice to strength (Painbringer and Draw Strength) also not spending the large amounts of power on taunt I can begin using that available power for dps, Stacking dots and the more expensive dps abilities with the 2 very power efficient ones (Fetid Grasp and Condemning Spirit) as well as buff the str/sta of up to 4 people in the party (while maintaining my self-only proc).  I give an atk boost and lifetap proc to the entire party (insatiable hunger) and my 2hand dps is nothing to laugh at in and of itself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Having me in the party doing all this buffing and dps, if the tank should fall, I can pull aggro and take his role (yes your perfect guardian tanks are flawed and sometimes die EVEN when I've buffed the heck out of em)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now my real issues with the class.  Since you can see the class is balanced, and working.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Feign Death... I long for a self feign death that lasts for longer than 5 second.  I would like a self feign that works like the monk feign lasting as long as you need it to.  In it's current form it has almost no application outside of combat.  Mobs will reaggro you right after the 5 second downtime.  The devs did not want SKs to have monk style Feign I'm aware, it just kinda makes me sad because FD from eq1 was one of the reasons I went SK.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2)Harm Touch... Harm touch is great to spur our dps or save us in a bind but right now I find that the timer is too long and the damage is too low.  The damage isn't much bigger than a wizard's regular nuke (Malefic Touch App3) and the timer is 30 mins... I would imagine that a 5 min timer with that damage would be fine, but on 30 mins it seems barely worth the effort... I think with the current damage a timer of 10-15 mins would be more noticable...it's a novelty more than an ability I use to "take down big mobs".  Right now I use it to keep me on the highest magical hit list on my server (NUMBER 15 BAY-BEEE) and just toss it after the disease debuffs have gone down</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Lifetaps....The damage/healing vs power ratio on these is....mediocre at best.  maybe I'm not high enough but my Consume Vitae lifetap has about a 65ish power consumption and damage healing quantity of about 120-140/50-60  seems a little underpowered for using that much power</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) Power consumption....Some of our abilities are just ridiculous in the amount of power they consume, our taunts are expensive but if all you're doing is tanking you should have plenty of power for that.  Grim Sword costs me *Choke* 111 power for a damage return somewhere between 99-140 (I've only gone over 110 dmg with this once)  I've been told it's for burning power only if something needs to be dead, but I think a sometimes less than 1-to-1 dmg/power ratio is ridiculous.  Spiked Boot, Decrepit Slam, Wicked Coil, are all hella expensive abilities which I just don't have the power to utilize regularly.  This may be part of the plan, dunno.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway guys hope this has been informative by no means take everything I say as word but in my experience the only times I had problems tanking was when I needed serious gear upgrades, and I rarely get taken in as an SA because most people scream for dps ignorantly rather than checking out what other group combinations might do for them.  If anything changes I'll be sure to post and I may come back and post a level 50 observation post.  Good Luck</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Hellion 38 Kerran Shadowknight on Crushbone server, Guildleader of Bane, EVIL KITTY</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Asmodai
12-24-2004, 06:56 PM
<p>Message Edited by Asmodaieq on <span class=date_text>12-24-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:58 AM</span>

Poena_De
12-24-2004, 06:57 PM
<P>34th level Shadowknight here.  The only time I ever really have problems with agro is whenever we are fighting things that are red to me.  At that point disease cloud doesn't become reliable due to the fact that it can be resisted due to it's direct damage component.  At that point I swap back to my Adept III inflame.  Other than that the only time I ever lose agro is if A)  I am slacking and not paying attention.  B)  Wizards/Rogues are blowing all their power to get something deaded  C)  Berserker is within a ten mile radius.</FONT></P> <P>I know everyone is frustrated with the agro thing but it really isn't THAT big of a deal.  There are a few things you have to remember and most agro problems will go away.  First off don't group with [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], if you have to get a pickup group and people start to act silly either leave or get them punted.  Don't put yourself in a position to fail.  Second don't even bother trying to hold agro against a Berserker.  I have submitted a few feedback and bug reports on it as well as speaking to a GM.  They know their agro is borked and will "eventually" fix it.  In the mean time if you wanna tank don't group with one.  If you don't wanna tank then by all means group with one. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Past that I don't have a whole lot to say.  If anyone has questions or comments or just wants to chat feel free to contact me on the Guk server.</P> <P> </P>

Zeroled
12-26-2004, 02:30 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> EDGEY wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <P>Sure there are some things that need tweaking, but overall, I'm finding my class quite rewarding.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Being a shadowknight isn't about mashing as many keys as you can as quick as you can, it requires tactics, timing and skill to fulfill the role you choose to play, whether it's MT, MA, or DPS. </FONT> As MT, I open with an HO, and never lose aggro.  As MA, I offer buffs, increased AC, damage wards, decent DPS, and MOB debuffs.</FONT></P> <P></FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by EDGEY on <SPAN class=date_text>12-17-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:32 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ditto.</P> <P>The way I look at it?  We're versitile because we're not cast into one particular role.  No, we couldn't hold a mob as well as a Guardian could.  No, we couldn't do as much DPS as an assasin.  But we can to little bits of either.  I've found that  makes us more compatible with any group.    In my own simple way of thinking, I figure that the SK is a person of religious conviction and a fighter.  So those are the skills we learn.  We can buff, ward, and invoke serious anger from mobs.</P> <P>We get the best of a couple worlds.  SKs are <EM>almost</EM> self sufficient.</P> <P><BR> </P>

JasonTheReap
01-19-2005, 05:07 AM
Your pity sickens me. i do not wish to doted on by a healer of the dismal rage. i wish to be healed as needed!

Kilo
01-19-2005, 08:24 AM
No offense, but did you have to resurrect this thing?<p>Message Edited by Kilopy on <span class=date_text>01-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:25 PM</span>

zaron
01-19-2005, 07:44 PM
<DIV>I play a 37 SK , and a 33 inquisitor. I'll tell you for sure that Murfaroo has problems with SK's due to his lack of ability (and probably the friends he plays with), and nothing more. I've done ALOT of grouping in RE, enough that I know exactly how well my SK can do against all the mobs in there. I've had all the fighter classes as tanks, and the one major difference in ALL the classes is player ability. Any one player who doesn't understand EQ2 aggro can kill a group fast. If the tank isn't holding agro, most of the time it's due to anothers mistake. The one exception to this is the SK's main agro holder at these levels, Disease cloud. If that gets resisted, problems can occur. As far as Murfaroo's boasting of him and his friends being "top" players on their respective server, I laugh at this. Level doesn't have anything to do with being "top" players. </DIV> <DIV> And as for Murf's question, where is the SK outrage thread? , there isn't one because it isn't needed. Most SK's are more than happy with thier class.</DIV>

Seir
01-19-2005, 08:31 PM
<DIV>This is not a new strategy...just a reminder for those who have played EQ1 :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tactic : Don't limit yourself to single target taunt + AE taunt + AE damage, <U>use your buffs during the fight or any other skills known to create hate</U></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example : Pull, use AE taunt, Unholy Order, AE damage, insert another buff here, AE taunt, Unholy Order, etc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Depending on how well you can hold agro, add or remove agro skills from that cycle and replace with damage...your primary roles if you are tanking is to take hits well and hold agro. If you are comfortable with both, increase your DPS.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Seiryu on <span class=date_text>01-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:33 AM</span>

vwlsskng
01-19-2005, 08:49 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaronoz wrote:<BR> <DIV>I play a 37 SK , and a 33 inquisitor. I'll tell you for sure that Murfaroo has problems with SK's due to his lack of ability (and probably the friends he plays with), and nothing more. I've done ALOT of grouping in RE, enough that I know exactly how well my SK can do against all the mobs in there. I've had all the fighter classes as tanks, and the one major difference in ALL the classes is player ability. Any one player who doesn't understand EQ2 aggro can kill a group fast. If the tank isn't holding agro, most of the time it's due to anothers mistake. The one exception to this is the SK's main agro holder at these levels, Disease cloud. If that gets resisted, problems can occur. As far as Murfaroo's boasting of him and his friends being "top" players on their respective server, I laugh at this. Level doesn't have anything to do with being "top" players. </DIV> <DIV> And as for Murf's question, where is the SK outrage thread? , there isn't one because it isn't needed. Most SK's are more than happy with thier class.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> It just goes to show you that grinding levels ala "Murferoo" doesn't the "top" player one make. The fool is obsessed with a numbers game and nothing more.