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BCool
12-04-2004, 01:42 AM
<DIV>First off, I am a Shadowknight. I am level 24. I have the same complaints as everyone else. This post, however, is not about the horse, broken skills, or useless pets. This post is about Shadowknights in general. I have come to the realization that Shadowknights are useless, and this scares me, for if we are useless, then are not all non-mainstream <EM>demand</EM> genres (tank, healer, utility, DPS) useless as well? The aforementioned types are the only true classes in Everquest 2, and all unique classes fall under each one of those categories. The Shadowknight falls under the tank category, but as tanks, we are not top dog. Guardians clearly take the bill when it comes to tanking. I have no doubt, especially later in the game when raids become very common, that the demand of Shadowknights will fall even more. This fact is also offset by an excess supply of Shadowknights, which also puzzles me. I have several reasons for coming to the conclusion that Shadowknights are very near to useless in any group situation where a group has its choice of classes. They are as follows:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. As far as tanks go, Shadowknights are mediocre at best. Guardians absorb damage better and Paladins make better tanks due to their ability to self-heal and keep some load off of the healer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. We have little utility as most of our abilities are geared towards doing damage or generating hate or helping only one other group member. As a supplement class, we are simply not diverse enough to fit as a utility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. The DPS of Shadowknights is laughable. We'll never match a Brawler subclass or any Rogue character. Thusly, we don't work as a DPS character.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The next reason is rather complicated and may seem like it goes against some of my previous reasoning, but believe me, it does not. As a class, Shadowknights are <EM>perceived</EM> to be decent tanks. There are a few reasons for this. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. All crusaders get an ability called Demonstration of Faith, which is a self ward. Many of us use this in battle. I use it when I don't fully trust a healer I am grouping with to get the job done.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Many Shadowknights use a shield, and the common perception is that if a class uses a shield, it generally makes a good tank. The case with Shadowknights is similar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because we are perceived as such, quite often Shadowknights find themselves working far too hard when they are put into the role of Main Tank. We find ourselves having to pull, create all the aggro and tank, help the healer with our self-ward, and try to maintain a semblance of DPS. As such, we are thrust into the roles of three different roles from the categories I mentioned (Tank, Healer, DPS). Since we do not fit into any of these roles, we have to work extremely hard to maintain the illusion that we make good candidates for this role. Therefore that is my next reason: Shadowknights work far too hard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The next reason is a general that everyone knows about in various forms. It takes many shapes because it has several sub-points that I won't go into. Perhaps all the classes have this complaint, perhaps not. However, I know that Shadowknights can make this claim, and thus I will. There is a distinct lack of class content for the Shadowknight. We have very few evil skills, our horse is quite "normal" (Don't flame me for talking about the horse, I love it, it's quite fast and useful. I only complain about the graphics, an easily fixed issue) and we overall have a small <EM>evil</EM> appeal or feel. I'm sure there are several Shadowknights out there that will agree with me. I also know there are several that will disagree. Just remember that these are opinions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you've read this far, you either agree with me or you don't. Either one is fine, but I believe I have drawn the correct conclusions from all my observations. If you don't, feel free to present your arguments, but please, whatever you say, have <EM>evidence</EM>. I'll read your reasoning through and give it consideration, but not if you don't have evidence. So go crazy, tell me what you think. That's what the boards are here for.</DIV>

Silvane
12-04-2004, 02:08 AM
<DIV>Basically every single class is having the same feelings about their own class. </DIV> <DIV>This is a list of threads compiled on the Paladin forum (yes, the paladins are saying they are underpowered too...along with every other class in this game).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Monks - </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=508" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=508</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=644" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=644</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV>Bruisers - </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=268" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=268</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=2&message.id=590" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5></FONT></A> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians -</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=1140" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=1140</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=674" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=674</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=794" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=794</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV>Berserkers -</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=770" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=770</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#c8c1b5></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Shadowknight -</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=574" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=9&message.id=574</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#c8c1b5></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Templars -</DIV> <DIV><U><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=667" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=667</FONT></A></U></DIV> <DIV><U><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=484" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=13&message.id=484</FONT></A></U></DIV> <DIV>Inquisitors -</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=14&message.id=385" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=14&message.id=385</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#c8c1b5></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Wardens -</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=106" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=16&message.id=106</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV>Furys -</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=17&message.id=148" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=17&message.id=148</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#c8c1b5></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Mystics (not really a self-defeatist thread, but look at how they describe paladins to be an important player in a group) -</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=19&message.id=320" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=19&message.id=320</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV>Defilers -</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=20&message.id=34" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=20&message.id=34</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#c8c1b5></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Wizards (talk about vanity) -</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=685" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=23&message.id=685</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV>Warlocks -</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=24&message.id=453" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=24&message.id=453</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=24&message.id=348" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=24&message.id=348</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#c8c1b5></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Illusionists -</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=26&message.id=21" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=26&message.id=21</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV>Coercers -</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=27&message.id=136" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=27&message.id=136</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#c8c1b5></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Conjurers -</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=29&message.id=217" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=29&message.id=217</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV>Necromancers -</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=261" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=261</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=340" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=30&message.id=340</FONT></A> (follow-up to the previous one haha)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Swashbucklers -</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=368" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=33&message.id=368</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV>Brigands -</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=34&message.id=16" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=34&message.id=16</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#c8c1b5></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Troubadors -</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=36&message.id=43" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=36&message.id=43</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV>Dirges -</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=37&message.id=193" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=37&message.id=193</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=37&message.id=114" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=37&message.id=114</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#c8c1b5></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Rangers -</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=343" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=343</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=4" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=39&message.id=4</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV>Assassins -</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=40&message.id=371" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=40&message.id=371</FONT></A></DIV></DIV>

Darkness
12-04-2004, 02:09 AM
First of all i would like to make it clear that my last intention is to flame or insult anyone, with that said here is what i think on the situation. Unfortunately i have not had the chance to play the shadowknight class yet as i am still a crusader however i still believe i can make a point at something. I personally enjoy shadowknights because of their history and persona as well as their variety. I often switch back in forth between classes because i can't stand a class that is expected to do one thing all the time (such as tank). I believe shadowknight's don't have a role engraved in stone. I think what seperates the shadowknight from the rest of fighters is that we can tank in normal grouping situations and many tough mob situations but when it comes down to guardian or shadowknight for say a raid tank, i think most would definitely agree over a guardian because that is what guardians do best. But this is where the shadowknight can stop tanking for a bit, pull out a huge sword, put on some badazz armor and put out some impressive numbers. This is where the guardian lacks, this is where the paladin lacks. Bruisers damage should be better than that of a shadowknight because they are bruisers but despite SOE's claims i say that they cannot tank as well as other fighters including us SK's and our Vanguard (in comparison to bruisers in their leather straps and tee-shirts lol). I won't play a shadowknight to be a raid tank or the one who deals the most damage. I play a shadowknight because i can tank and deal damage almost as well as their pure forms (such as guardians for tanking and some scouts for damage) without lacking considerably in the other. Each class is like a seesaw with aspects such as offense and defense on the ends. When one go down the other goes down because every strong point is followed by a weak point. I feel like shadowknights are balanced but still powerful. Maybe the seesaw is shaped like a V in the SK's regard =D. In regards to SOE saying all fighters are equal tanks and whatnot... I am dissapointed tho because i feel we have been let down for what they promised, but i still like the way we turned out.

swampthing
12-04-2004, 02:25 AM
I think alot of your problems are YOUR problems. I'm just shy of 24 and i haven't seen enough difference between any of the tanks to get excited about anything.1) Guardians are at best marginally better at tanking at this level. The only real reason they have an edge on me at the moment is because their quest shield is far better than anything i can get, therefore they have a higher AC than me. I was Main tank for 22.5 levels and the healer never had any problems. Only recent has a guardian approached my level and the healer really hasn't noticed any difference. Perhaps your equipment is sub par?2) What kind of utility do you want? we can feign other members as well as ourselves to pull aggro. We have a horse. We can harmtouch is things are going bad and we need a burst of 500ish damage. We can pull. We can taunt. We can ward ourselves. This all doesn't equate to utility in your book?3) We aren't SUPPOSED to match a brawler or scout. Some brawler or scout is probably right now posting "omg we can't match SK's in tanking we suck". If you get a decent weapon you'll do the same straight melee damage as anyone else. It's your spells and abilities that add the extra punch.Your onlyl using ward when you don't fully trust a healer and your main tanking? Uh you should be firing this off constantly. It's part of your skill set and your tanking ability is based with it in mind. If you aren't using it, no wonder you suck. If you're not main tanking you should be casting it ON the main tank to buffer his damage and help the healer.Next you complain about working to hard. Sheesh, you want utility, DPS and tanking ability and now you don't want to work to get it? Should we just sit there and hit the attack button and have the rest all macroed?I think basically your just playing the wrong class. You sound like you expected to be the most powerful at everything and that just isn't the case.

Kunathar
12-04-2004, 02:42 AM
This is just my opinion, but I think it is way too early to start these "my class sux" threads. Everyone is JUST starting to come in their own as to what their class can do. Right now we are all pretty much equals as we push onward through this game.I am willing to bet, as the content progresses us further that the space between each class will widen. You will see that the Guardian was made to be the Main Tank. You will see the SK's/Pallies as the secondary tanks. You will see who the true DPS classes are, etc...Right now, it's too early to start making assumptions about our class. Let's let the cards fall. Hell we have yet to see any class specific gear yet. When the class specific gear starts coming out you will start to see what I mean.Again, just my opinion.<p>Message Edited by Kunathar on <span class=date_text>12-03-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:43 PM</span>

Deadjest
12-04-2004, 03:11 AM
<DIV>I have to say I really dont have to many complaints at the moment about EQ2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am 19.8 lvl Crusader who duos witha Guardian all the time, he tanks better then I do but the margin is within reason, nothing I am worried about, so I let him take the lead and use my ablities to cover his weakness and step in and tank when we go over board on pulling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1)   If there is anything I would bring up it would have to be that Resists Rates are to high.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2)   Our versitility in spells needs to be adjusted and some spells/ability costs loward a tad (sorry played a EQ1 SK, at the moment EQ1 is more tatical/versitile SK in some of its ablilities)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3)   Add more content for SKs in general for the Evil feel.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But none of this is game breaking.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Right now the game is in its Tweak phase, and will be for a bit, its going to take the player communitys impute befor they can Tweak it just right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I would hold off on the WE SUCK for a bit and just get in there and nock some heads.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After I log out of here I am going to kill me some Orcs, they are evil, I am evil, I see no reason why our friendship can't last till I get in weapons range of them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw if anyone sees any post by some LUMBERJACK ORCS saying They Suck cause they get killed alot, I apologize now ahead of time, for it will be my fault  =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haruchai</DIV> <DIV>19.8 Crusader</DIV> <DIV>Highhold </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Bellic
12-04-2004, 03:43 AM
<DIV>We are underpowered .... because we are noobs. We are supposed to suck. I am lvl 22 with almost 1k hp 600 power and almost 1k ac I can tank well, sure its a little harder because I am a SK and a Dark elf and my starting stats for stamina str etc where low, but where I lack there i make up in my power pool. Now for me after playing EQ 1 for many years I had a 49 SK 65 necro and a 49 monk, I understand the difference between these classes. SK's are never meant to be Main tanks. We save the healers and 2ndry dps rogues casters what ever during a raid situation from adds so the healers can heal and the main tank can keep aggro. In a group I can tank just fin unless i get a dble up arrow orange and it hits me for 400 which is about the gayest thing ever. Sk's and paladins a like are hybrids , part melee part caster. We are very verstile if anything I can solo and group very well. Well that is my input, not trying to flame you man but like some others said it is way to early to start threads like this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Rotlu
12-04-2004, 04:02 AM
OMG! The sky is falling!!!! This thread is ridiculous. I'm a 22 sk and I tank just as well as the 22 guardian I was with last night, probably better because I was doing more to hold aggro... whatever. There is no way you can make claims of being useless yet... what do you want? You can tank better than the scouts, priests or magi? Right? That's the whole point of this system. Will you ever out-dps a scout? NO, you're not supposed to. Will you be needed on raids, well, you personally will probably not because you whine too much. Will I? Yes, because I know how to play my role in groups/raids.

BCool
12-04-2004, 04:15 AM
<DIV>To Swampthing, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you'll read my evidence, you'll realize that none of my problems are personal. I've been main tank for 24 levels, with few exceptions, and my healers have never had any problems either. My equipment is not sub-par by any sense of the word, as I've completed all of the armor quests, the Plate Guantlets of Hate quest, and have spent over fifteen gold on the right side inventory, and my AC is base above 1500.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Secondly, Graven Embrace is at the very best an unsuccesful attempt at Feign Death in the true sense as it rarely works as intended because group members and the Shadowknight automatically get up from the ability. I'll agree with you that the horse is useful. And, do not cite Harm Touch as a skill that is useful, as this simply is not the case. I've never had it resisted so I cannot speak for that, but the situations in which a quick burst of 500 damage, which is not too much considering the amount of hit points the things I hunt have, are very minimal. All warriors can taunt and I don't consider that a utitlity for that reason. The ward is quite good for solo use but pales in comparison to anything a healer can do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As per your third reason, I can gaurantee you that no Scout or Brawler cares to tank, that's why they chose that profession. No Scout or Brawler I've spoken to, and I know quite a few, has ever expressed a desire to tank. As per your "if you get a decent melee weapon you'll do the same straight melee damage as anyone else" comment. You couldn't be more off base or completely wrong. I have the absolute premier Shadowknight weapon for my level and the next few levels in the Skullcrusher and Heavy Skullsprainer(level 27 weapon). Don't talk about weapons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Next, you misunderstand me about the ward. It is my most used skill besides perhaps the skills I use to complete Heroic Opportunities. I was simply citing the chief time I use the skill and when it becomes most important to me. Don't talk to me about gameplay mechanics either, as I fully understand them. The whole "no wonder you suck" idea you have is simply preposterous. I gaurantee you, my friend, that I am far better at what I do than you could imagine, as I take my job seriously, so don't ever even consider saying such a thing to me again. But I digress.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I never said I wanted all of those things, I said these are the things that Sony seemed to have in mind while creating the Shadowknight, but executed poorly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also never expected to be the most powerful at <EM>anything</EM> much less everything. I was only saying that the execution of this class was poor and did not seem to be thought out appropriately to me. To your "you're playing the wrong class" comment, based on my arguments, why don't you make a suggestion as to what class I should play instead of spouting nonsense and insulting remarks? This was a friendly post and I don't appreciate your ignorant comments.</DIV>

N7649U
12-04-2004, 04:55 AM
Hi, 22 sk here.I dont want to be mean to anyone, but the thing about our DoF stinking compared to what healer can do is stupid. The ward makes it so the healer can do that much less, around 300 points, which is a little less than a 1/3 of my hp. As for HT being useless that is wrong if you ask me, cause it has a big agro affect and nice damage to swing the tide of a fight. FD stinks???, give me a break, I just got the spell and I cant count the number of times I have saved someone from death with it, this resulting in saving the grp from debt. At this point all classes need some help, but citing things you did confuses me because those are the skills that help make our class fun and worthy to be in any grp.Gorn22 SkBlackburrow

McBogge
12-04-2004, 05:18 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BCooley wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The next reason is a general that everyone knows about in various forms. It takes many shapes because it has several sub-points that I won't go into. Perhaps all the classes have this complaint, perhaps not. However, I know that Shadowknights can make this claim, and thus I will. There is a distinct lack of class content for the Shadowknight. We have very few evil skills, our horse is quite "normal" (Don't flame me for talking about the horse, I love it, it's quite fast and useful. I only complain about the graphics, an easily fixed issue) and we overall have a small <EM>evil</EM> appeal or feel. I'm sure there are several Shadowknights out there that will agree with me. I also know there are several that will disagree. Just remember that these are opinions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is the big one for me, I can live with being underpowered as all classes will feel that way some point - and will probably at some point get a boost. </P> <P>But I loved being and playing a Shadowknight in EQLive because you *felt* like a Shadowknight, you felt evil and it was immensely satisfying and regardless of class balance at least I had my identity.</P> <P>Unfortunately, after hitting level 25 and being in denial - I realized that the rest of the SK spells are just a bunch of DoT's and DD's. There's nothing there to make you feel like a Shadowknight or even act like one and that is a darn shame. <BR></P>

cocoa_boy
12-04-2004, 09:03 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> McBoggers wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BCooley wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The next reason is a general that everyone knows about in various forms. It takes many shapes because it has several sub-points that I won't go into. Perhaps all the classes have this complaint, perhaps not. However, I know that Shadowknights can make this claim, and thus I will. There is a distinct lack of class content for the Shadowknight. We have very few evil skills, our horse is quite "normal" (Don't flame me for talking about the horse, I love it, it's quite fast and useful. I only complain about the graphics, an easily fixed issue) and we overall have a small <EM>evil</EM> appeal or feel. I'm sure there are several Shadowknights out there that will agree with me. I also know there are several that will disagree. Just remember that these are opinions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is the big one for me, I can live with being underpowered as all classes will feel that way some point - and will probably at some point get a boost. </P> <P>But I loved being and playing a Shadowknight in EQLive because you *felt* like a Shadowknight, you felt evil and it was immensely satisfying and regardless of class balance at least I had my identity.</P> <P>Unfortunately, after hitting level 25 and being in denial - I realized that the rest of the SK spells are just a bunch of DoT's and DD's. There's nothing there to make you feel like a Shadowknight or even act like one and that is a darn shame. <BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree. I came to this same realization after completing the SK subclass quest. Assigned to me by Militia Freeport (Bullies? Yes. Evil? Questionable.),  I had to kill some Dervs who were plotting against Freeport...I did not 'feel' like a Shadowknight. Would have made more sense had I been assigned to kill a bunch of Qeynos do-gooders threatening Lucin's kingdom...</DIV> <DIV>Thats a minor complaint at this point, because I enjoy this game so much.  I hope that there will come a time when more flavorful content is added to further define Shadowknights as evil.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do believe it is a little early to declare our class useless or broken. I do feel frustrated at times when I cannot find a group. There are quite a few SK's roaming the Commonlands. Fortunately, SK's aren't too bad at soloing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My horse doesn't seem to be that 'evil'. Honestly I would like to see an upgrade to our horse graphic, but I believe it should come at a later level and maybe earned through a quest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, I like playing assist to a main tank. I focus my buffs on the Main Tank, keeping DoF up throughout an encounter. Sometimes the occasional GE is required to bail out a caster or healer that has inadvertantly topped a mob's hate list. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've had some success in pickup groups with the SK class. I haven't had much experience with raid encounters as of yet. It will be interesting to weigh the value of an SK in a raid situation.</DIV>

Hess
12-04-2004, 12:34 PM
<DIV>Hmm I don't agree with every idea put forth by the original poster...but I do feel like my DPS is absolutely abysmal.  Actually I feel like i tank very well...and though sometimes I wish I could maintain aggro a little better I'm absolutely stoked with how well I can tank compared to everyone Ive grouped with to date.  But MAN does my damage suck.</DIV>

Zuuljin
12-04-2004, 01:08 PM
<DIV>What alot of you have to realize about the class/subclass system, is that you are not exactly a lvl 24 shadowknight, you are a lvl 20 crusader, and a lvl 4 shadowknight.  It is WAY WAY to early to talk about class balance, as your essentially lvl 4 out of 30 shadowknight levels.   Of course there is a lack of class content, YOUR LEVEL 4.  Hell, in EqLive you dont even get your sk spells till lvl 9 ( or did, dunno bout that new tutorial thing...).  So come back in 5 more levels and see if there is more a distinction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I for one LOVE working to be the best I can be in a group, because it seperates the good players and the bad players.  I'm currently lvl 24 also, and I do a great job tanking, and have been told by many that I do better then some guardians.  And my gear is also crap because i havnt even finished AQ2 ( **mods 4 teh win!!1!** rats are always camped = ).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It just sounds like trying to coordinate things together is to much for you, and your not happy.  So I suggest rerolling as a different class.  Go with a monk/bruiser, much less stress.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And as was pointed out, EVERY class thinks their underpowered because they see something in another class they think is better, but at the same time do not realize the down side to that class.  Hell, people can use the exact same argument as to why we are OVERPOWERED. Jeez i mean we can tank, put out decent dps, we can pull, have great agro, can FD others, have a self ward, and we even get a horse!  Out of context, that sounds extremely overpowered if you ask me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can see how you can conclude from this though on why at higher levels we will be useless, ( as are in eq1 when I quit ), but lets just get there before we argue about it.  From what I can see so far, is the classes have alot of built in utility for other  members of your party ( intervene, various ac buffs for another tank ) to help out.  Who knows, we might be wanted if not for a MT, but to buff, take dmg off, help rune the guardian.  Honestly, 2 tank groups work really really well.  People need to break out of the concept of eq1's holy trinity and realize there's more to the combat system that can be achieved with a little planning and... you guessed it, work. =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zuuljin </DIV> <DIV>24 Shadowknight</DIV> <DIV>Befallen  </DIV>

Drax
12-04-2004, 03:22 PM
<DIV>Let me start off by saying I haven't read every single response to this thread. For that I apologize. I read the main post and am posting my thoughts on such. I am a level 23 Shadowknight. I feel like a force to be reckoned with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The roll for SK's/Paladins seem the same: The Knights. Our role is dps/tank hybrid and our utilities are all designed to pull the group out of a bind and ensure no one dies. Allow me to explain:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My DPS is not that of an assassin, but its much higher DPS than most classes in the game. If you're equipment is up to date and your skills are trained up you should be outdamaging everyone but assassins and wizards (which the later I outdamage in boss fights simply because they run out of mana in EQ2 rediculously fast). I outdamage bards, main tanks, priests, enchanters, and even most necromancers I've grouped with. Never grouped with a berserker, so I'm not sure how their DPS holds up compared to ours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a tank I find I operate as well as a guardian that doesn't have the benefit of a knight in his group. If a guardian is in the group, which I group with a guardian regularly, I give them to the roll of tank and I keep my ward on them + valor + protection/ac + offering of armament. Believe it or not, this makes a guardian a MACHINE. It requires NO effort to keep these spells up and I can focus on DPS. If you're using autoassist, which you should be when not the main tank, you can simply cast defensive spells and offensive spells on the tank and they will all land properly on the right target. Wards will hit the target, attacks will hit your tanks target. Simple, effortless, effective. If you're use to using an assist key it works fine this way as well, since your wards will hit the monsters targets and your damage will hit your target.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets break down our knightly spells now:</DIV> <DIV>Harm Touch - At Apprentice 2 my Harm Touch typically hits for 350ish. Quite frankly, an instant 350 damage can make a huge difference at level 23. It becomes progressively more painful later on as well. The main problem with harm touch is the price gouging related around it making it difficult to upgrade. If you do find an adept 1 it will deal upwards 500+ damage. Regardless, it's allowed me to take out a boss mob and focus on his minions very effectively. VERY useful against immune mobs as well where damage output is lacking. I don't need to go into the uses of harm touch as I know we all enjoy having it. Its reuse timer aint even that bad in EQ2, so I've used it just to speed things along. I dont feel like I'm wasting it in EQ2 like I did in the original - I get it back in thirty minutes =). Still, its saved the group a few times</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rescue - At 25 you recieve the end-all taunt. Garunteed to succeed and taunt the target. This makes you one hell of a secondary tank or primary tank, plus yet another tool to save your clerics or enchanters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Targetable Feign Death - This spell owns, simple as that. I've saved more people than I can count. I can get this off in 2 seconds. Switch target with f2-f6 key, hit the correct key, and viola. Target saved. This also makes soloing for us almost effortless... If were alone in a group, the targets disengage. If you're not standing where they normally stand, they wont attack you when you get back up (part of the anti-train code), they'll ignore you and walk back to their home points.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A little notes on our DPS:</DIV> <DIV>All of our DPS skills are better than you think. Have you upgraded to Adept I's? Let me explain: Righteous Anger Apprentice 3... 35 damage or so. Righteous Anger Adept 1.. 75 damage at my level. Pretty big improvement. Grim Coil Apprentice 1... 22 dmg a tick. Grim Coil Apprentice 3... 29 damage a tick. Righteous Blow Apprentice 1... A joke =P. Righteous Blow Adept 1.. 70 Damage. Charge app 1... 30ish damage. Charge Adept 1.. 70 damage. Faithful Swing App 1.. An utter joke with 8 HP lifetap. Faithful Swing Adept 1... 60ish damage with 25ish hp lifetap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, its harder for us to upgrade. Theres a bit of price gouging going on crusaders/sk's. This is mainly because, I believe, once you're a crusader you're on a linear path - You're basically already on a linear skill line. EVERY crusader is becoming a shadowknight and we ALL want the same spells. A warrior tree splits into two for freeport, we do not. Regardless, whatever the reason - Our adept 1's are priced much higher than guardians and other classes. Just hang in there, use the merchant overnight, and keep your money up. I made 3 gold last night selling some old equipment and harvested resources. Funding me quite nicely.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as soloing... I feel like the best solo class around. Theres no risk involved with feign death, our combo's are easy to execute and effective, and I deal considerable damage as long as I have a breath of power left in me. Alot of our skills are almost powerless to cast as well, so it keeps me in the game a while if I'm mana effecient. If you use only ward, righteous anger, inflame, and faithful swing in rotating Herioic Oppertunities you can stay in a fight a LONG time. Throw in a grim coil or charge now and then when things are looking acceptable in your favor for good measure. At level 17-18 I was soloing level 22-23 mobs. At 23 I can still hold my own VERY well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My suggestions to you is:</DIV> <DIV>Upgrade your equipment. EQ2 is funny about that, I started to feel [Removed for Content] and then just stopped and started finding better equipment. I'm on part 6 of my armor quest now, so AC-wise I'm holding up very, very, very very very well =P. I can stand there forever while greens beat on me and never take a hit. It's amusing =P. Do the lightstone quest as far as you can and get a decent necklace. Do some other quests that give exceptional equipment, it makes a huge difference to fighter classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Use auto-assist. It makes our job 'not hard'. =P</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Use your buffs, they make a big difference. Remember Unholy Order and Call to Arms stack, regardless of the fact theyre on different timers. If you upgrade them, they make a very noticable difference in combat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Upgrade your skills above all. Apprentice 1 to Adept 1 on some of our skills double the damage output of them. Its worth every penny.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All in all I feel SK is a great class. A tank/dps hybrid that can get the job done on either front is wonderful, and I'm not limited to doing one or the other. As a tank I'm still exceptional DPS and as a dps role I'm still making the tank a better tank. I have saved more group members than I can count... I love the praise I get when I pull a wipe together and get everyones shards back. Yeah, sometimes it requires us bite the bullet and shout mobs off of people, feign them and take their agro and run them off, or even charge into a fray and lead them off so our groupies can recover their shards... But were one of the only classes that can do that without worrying about dying =P</DIV><p>Message Edited by Draxis on <span class=date_text>12-04-2004</span> <span class=time_text>05:25 AM</span>

Drax
12-04-2004, 03:23 PM
<DIV>As a quick edit.. yes, before you say it, I left out bruisers who as a DPS class should be outdamaging us as well =P</DIV>

Bellic
12-04-2004, 03:27 PM
<DIV>good post draxis</DIV>

Tyd
12-04-2004, 03:32 PM
<DIV>Some views:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We don't suck at tanking, if anyone says that you aren't fit to tank - either they don't have the knowledge that we can or you lack the skill to do it. I am a lvl 26 and the only problem i have is keeping aggro in some groups. I have higher AC and HP then most tanks at my level - Keep your gear updated... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We DO NOT deal slightly less damage then the scouts (or brawlers) - we deal ALOT less, but our job isnt to deal damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When i was visiting Enchanted Lands a few days ago i was soloing the faries, young badgers, turtles, beetles, deers and wasps around the docks without much problem. These mobs were orange to me, and if we were so underpowered - would i have been able to do so?</DIV> <DIV>These mobs are red now, and i don't know if they are buffed or the devs changed the colorcode, but i don't dare touching them anymore. Point is: I solo though mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In a group, our job is to take beatings and hold aggro, its that simple. We have some great tools for this, and here are some:</DIV> <DIV>Faithful Swing, Unyelding advance, Demonstration of Faith , Decree of Decay (yes the lifetap works, i got 6HP once<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, and also ive pulled whole groups of mobs from other groupmembers, so YES it effects the whole group.) - All these techniques increase aggro with either hate-increase or healing. Demonstration of Faith and Decree of Decay being my favorites.</DIV> <DIV>Also our AE DD spells are decent for getting aggro early on.</DIV> <DIV>With the last-chance skills we have (that unfortunatly don't work as good as i would like them to): Rescue, Graven Embrace and Harm Touch we can save our comrades when we really have to. Rescue most often put you back on top of the aggrolist, Graven Embrace saves your mates (but removes all his buffs, which can prove fatal, and should be adressed) and Harm Touch kills the mob that needs killing, and also racks up some serious hate towards you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/Lvl 26 SK</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Drax
12-04-2004, 03:40 PM
<DIV>I guess I'm the only SK that feels like hes dealing significant damage =P</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I thought I'd add another note real fast. This isn't EQ1 where switching weapons around was almost unheard of. Keep in mind, you arn't MT... bust out that 2hander, it uses the same darn skill (we only have slashing and crushing to keep up. It's not that hard, their are not two handed versions we have to keep up as well). When you go back to tanking, out comes the shield.</DIV>

Bellic
12-04-2004, 03:46 PM
<DIV>My max dmg with my skullcrusher is 78 and I can solo some nek mobs pretty easy with charge and righteous anger adept 1 and demo of faith... and I know I tank well. I havent used a 2nder is like 2 weeks. Haventt found a good one i like well enough.</DIV>

Anash
12-04-2004, 04:15 PM
<DIV>I think the whole problem is there are too many tanks, groups dont want 2 tanks, they want 2 healers, 1 tank, and DPS, we are looked down upon by the Qeynos bunch cause we can't heal, they would rather have a healing tank in their group, or a guardian or berzerker, most don't see what a SK brings to a group they can't grab from the other tank classes, we need more frills to make them want us as much as a paladin, maybe a lifetap that heals group, something... I see a dismal future for shadowknights, I see this already at level 27 and having to wait 3-4 hours to finally find a group, yes all the other tanks must of logged for bed <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are not underpowered, I can kill stuff solo 4 levels above me, this is not underpowered, we are underrated and underestimated. hopefully the solid groups I have been in remember me cause I can't rely on getting groups from "good" aligned groups, and the "good" population triples the "evil" .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

vTenebr
12-04-2004, 04:34 PM
We do have some decentish buffs. People ask me for Vigor. Sta/Str is a nice thing. Not to mention the dmg buff and all the improved offense spells we have. Gods, what more do you need?That ward is more than if you don't trust your healer. It saves ANY healer mana if you use it. Not to mention if you DO happen to lose agro, you can cast it and regain agro OR at least keep the person, who got the unfortunate agro, alive. It's a decent ward.We have a horse.We *ARE* decent tanks. I've been sent tell after tell after tell asking me to join groups because they DO believe a shadowknight is a good tank. Some cases it's because they'd HEARD I was a good tank. Reputation helps.I've been in groups with 2 tanks and combinations thereof. I don't know, I don't feel at all underpowered. And with the change in taunt, I feel downright sporting.I really love being a Shadowknight. (I'm lvl 25 btw)If you don't love it, reroll. Perhaps you just need a new niche <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

vwlsskng
12-05-2004, 04:36 AM
<DIV>Just out of curiosity, did you play a Shadow Knight in EQL? Many a SK on shadowknight.org whined about the same tired issues in the prior game, all throughout.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We were hyrbids then, we are hybrids now, despite what anyone says. Think of the class as a jack of all trades, but master of none. If you want to be DPS, play a rogue, if you want to be the best tank that you can be, role a warrior.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I played a Shadow Knight through to Level 65 with close to 500 AA and I was the puller and main tank in 95% of the exp groups that I joined, though I never complained about that role because that was what was expected of me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This game is far too new to be making such complaints.</DIV>

Zutan
12-05-2004, 06:43 AM
<DIV>I have seen SK in the list of groups looking for "DPS" before.. but generally thats left up to the scouts and mages.  Up till 19 I was always the MA in every group I joined.  From 20 to 22 I was usually not MA because I was still catching up on the post-20 armors.  From 23 to 25 so far I am MA almost all the time when I join a group. Now I have about 1400ac and tank very well and still do decent damage.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I use Knights Stance Adept1 constantly unless I'm not the MA and not Soloing.  It really helps if you're using a shield because it increases (by alot) the chance you will block and that your defense will keep you from being hit as hard.  It does seem to lower DPS slightly, which is why I dont use it when Im not MA.</DIV>

krabpeop
12-05-2004, 08:52 AM
<DIV>someone has a little sand in their  vag***</DIV><p>Message Edited by krabpeople on <span class=date_text>12-04-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:54 PM</span>

Yinmaren
12-06-2004, 02:38 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> BCooley wrote:<BR> <DIV>To Swampthing, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As per your third reason, I can gaurantee you that no Scout or Brawler cares to tank, that's why they chose that profession. No Scout or Brawler I've spoken to, and I know quite a few, has ever expressed a desire to tank. As per your "if you get a decent melee weapon you'll do the same straight melee damage as anyone else" comment. You couldn't be more off base or completely wrong. I have the absolute premier Shadowknight weapon for my level and the next few levels in the Skullcrusher and Heavy Skullsprainer(level 27 weapon). Don't talk about weapons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You couldn't be more wrong about everything. Brawlers, which include Monks and Bruisers, WANT to be able to tank. Go over to the monk forums and check out one of the 6 page threads. Monks want to be able to tank, however, we (by we I mean I have a lvl 20 Monk) are not meant to tank near as well as SK's or Guardians, or any other fighter. I am playing a Crusader, and I can EASILY say that my Mmonk did WAY more dmg at 15, but my Crusader tanks WAY better. That is just the role of it all. If you can't live with the fact that the SK isn't supposed to be a huge dmg dealer, then I don't know what to tell you. SK's are meant to hold agro with taunts, dots, DD, and DPS. They are great utility in saving peoples lives (FD ability, even if it does work for you doesn't mean it isn't worth using) and are great to have in a group. I personally would enjoy having the following two grouped with my monk at all times: SK and Berserker. Why? Because the SK could slap wards on my monk while the berserker intervenes my dmg and I put my dmg dampering buff on the Beserker. If the healer ever got ANY agro, the SK could use his FD ability and save the day.</P> <P>Also, DPS is based off of your weapon. I don't care how much you want to argue about you doing bad damage, it is because of your weapon and not your class set. Firstly, you have to realize that as an SK, you are <STRONG><U>NOT</U></STRONG> a DPS tank. You are one of the best tanks in the game for holding agro. Now while this seems like I contradicted myself, I did not. The DPS is only an added thing. I can hold agro with my crusader off of a lvl 16 predator and 17 druid with ease without having attack on. I hit for an average of 4-5 a hit every 1.5 seconds and I find this to be fine. I know my purpose is not DPS. I know I am meant to tank so I use my shield instead of a 2hander. When I am in a group were I am not needed to be the MT, I whip out my 2hander and just do dmg and start HO's. True DPS comes from the HO's you do. At lvl 13 with my friends (pred and druid) we did an HO which did 284 dmg. The scout/fighter is a great combo for doing HO's (Note that what we did was a rare HO. We have done that HO only about 3 times and we have played together since lvl 7 and every fight we pull off an average of 10 HO's) and that is were true dmg comes from. Group effort brings forth more DPS than any single or group of classes can do.</P> <P>If you think that <STRONG><U>you</U></STRONG> should be the tank in groups at all times, then you are selfish. There is always somebody better in both skill and level. Always. If you are stuck as a secondary tank, who cares. You are getting the same amount of XP you would if you were the MT but with less work and less risk. I don't see the problem in that.</P>

Tez
12-06-2004, 02:42 AM
<DIV>I chose shadowknight to be an offensive character, I don't want more utility spells to buff my group up and such. If I wanted that I would have gone paladin</DIV>

WuphonsReach
12-06-2004, 04:49 AM
I think that so far, SKs are positioned just right.I can take damage well enough to function as the main tank. I have no aggro issues. I make a great SA through the use of my buffs / intervene / DoF. We do enough damage to serve as a damage dealer, but that's not our strong suit. A tank is not supposed to be the DPS king, that's for the finger-wagglers and pointy-weapon folks.Seems to be a very utlitarian class, lots and lots of little strengths rather then one defining ability. That fits my needs perfectly because I don't like being slotted into a single role in groups / raids.So unless the game balance changes dramatically in the 30s / 40s, I don't agree with your conclusions about our role within groups at all.(More class-specific content is always welcome. Especially stuff that makes us more evil.)

Jaggid
12-07-2004, 02:06 AM
<DIV>I have yet to have any issue tanking as an SK, except for over zealous casters nuking before I can get agro built up on me.  One thing to keep in mind, if you do not think you can tank, is a good Healer will make a huge difference is being able to survive  being an MA.  Another thing to think about, when you are tanking, is your armor at 100%?  I have noticed that once I get to 70% con, on my armor, I may as well be wearing a wet paper sack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for that ward, [Removed for Content] I keep forgetting to get that dang thing in my hotbar.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  With that I'm gonna be super tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are talking about that Sheild thing we get correct?  That should help collect agro right?</DIV>

vTenebr
12-07-2004, 05:11 AM
BTW: Even if you're not MT in a group (one can't always be), ShadowKnights make excellent OFF tanks. If you have no chanter in group we can keep agro from the casters and healers, ward the main tank, offer him armament, and generally keep order among the mobs.We can save our whole group's butt from agro issues while everyone else focuses on the MT's target to get it dead faster.Know thy role, SK.We're damned good at what we do. If you think otherwise, seriously.. reroll, you're doing something wrong.

PlumpPython
12-07-2004, 09:07 AM
<DIV>Threads like these are why MMORPG forums suck and this one should be deleted. This is just paranoid rambling and no one should care about what this guy says. I like my SK very much. He tanks and solos as well any other tank class. </DIV>

MF2K|Wh
12-07-2004, 10:59 AM
<DIV>I'm a 29 nearly 30 Shadowknight, yes there are some problems with the class (the horse), but overall I see this as a pretty balance class. Sure we can't tank as well as a guardian, but can a guardian FD the mage that is about to die because he caused to much aggro? Nope. Can a guardian cast a ward that absorbs upwards of 300 health? (at my level anyways) Nope. I have jsut as much defense/ac as most Gaurdian tanks I see around my level. And alot of the people I group with are very surprised and infact like having a SK vs a Guardian. Yall gotta look at it like this...... Sure we can't outright tank as well as a Guardian, but we can tank almost as well, and we have a nice assortment of spells to make up for it. </DIV>

WuphonsReach
12-07-2004, 11:19 AM
DoF (Demonstration of Faith) is our ward spell. I don't have the hard numbers on power / dmg blocked handy. Definitely worth Adept1 prices, and possibly Adept3 prices. It carries a decent bit of aggro (not as much as shout, but every mob hates you when you cast it, so it's a good "group" taunt). DoF is almost *too* good that I expect to log in one day and find it nerfed (paranoid delusional). I typically end up as SA to another SK who's 2 levels higher. She puts on her shield+1H, Blessed Weapon, Knight's Stance and Vigor of Trust. I load up Blessed Weapon and usually Intervene on either the cleric or whoever tends to get aggro. On hard fights, I dump AC to her using Offering of Armament.As long as the group lets her complete her first HO (pull with RA, start the HO, advance the HO as the mobs arrive, finish with Inflame or Shout), we rarely have issues with aggro. Even in multiple mob situations, the mobs stick to her like glue. On really hard fights, she chain-DoFs herself and I chain-DoF as well. The mobs are chewing through DoFs so fast that it's rare that it lasts for more then a few seconds. This helps a lot with healing aggro if we only have a single healer (usually just a single cleric). Some of those hard fights, everyone is out of power except the cleric who still has 2 bubbles of mana for emergencies.(Yes, I like my class choice...)

TalinorColdwind
12-07-2004, 04:00 PM
<DIV> <DIV>I just want to start by saying if you think sk's are underpowered I think u need to find a new class. You have to remember the SOE made eq2 a job specific game which means each class has a certain job to do. If you are a sk set up right you can out tank a gurdain anyday from what I have expereinced so far and I am a 23.5 sk. You just have to remember either to set up as defence or offense you can not have both in this game so as a guardian or paly or sk you have to chose which you want you can not have both. So far from what I seen in game no class can. I hope that SOE doesn't submit to you whinners about the underpower issues due to this game isn't made to be soloing although I have to say I find it easy to solo as a sk do to my dmg mitigation abilities. My solo fights last long but I do not take dmg. and when you are grped and are a main tank you will not put out much dmg due to your power should be used for dmg mitigation and for taunts and knock downs with charge and unwileding slam just by repeating those and your taunts you will never lose agro and u will barely take dmg with a good shield and 1 hander. your job is just keep agro everyone else is to kill.  This is not eq1 so let the hole I am under powered go. Soe posted that they wanted this game to be a grping or team work game it is that way now don't ruin it by all your crying. and if you can not handle the job as a mt as a sk then find a new class because I find it easy and I have a great ac to hp ration for my lvl comapred to any class I have found few that have more. Oh and 1 other thing SOE also put out if you are a tank and when I say tank i am not talking zerk or brawler classes due to they have no dmg mitigation and in this game it is all about that as a mt, but soe said that your ability to perform your job will depend on how you play and on your gear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>23 troll shadowknight</DIV></DIV>

_Baal_
12-07-2004, 08:06 PM
<DIV>i just have to say this guy disgusts me. i can say that most every group i am in they are more than happy to have a Shadowknight in the group. only time i lose aggro is if some one gets click happy. hey what can you do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>graven embrace has saved many butts in the past, along with DoF.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>when some one asks for a MT or an OT we fit the bill. i would rather the guardian that is about the same lvl as me take tank due to their higher ac and hp. thats what they do, we have much more to offer as support to a guardian. however, we can take over if they die or just plain need a rest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ShadowKnights are overworked and everyone expects alot of use. you know why? cuz they know we are uber 1337. =)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if you cant hack it as a ShadowKnight, do something else. dont ruin our image.</DIV>

TalinorColdwind
12-08-2004, 03:32 PM
<DIV>Well put Baal</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Talinor Coldwind</DIV>

Koobkno
12-09-2004, 01:27 AM
<DIV>Aye, I have to agree. Ive never heard a complaint or felt inadequate as a tank in a group. A many times ive had guardians etc say for me to be main tank and i just do my thing. I hold aggro and GE has saved a few lives at this point. Underpowered? No. Underestimated? Yes.</DIV>

Justicar333
12-09-2004, 12:40 PM
<DIV>I had to chime in here, this fellow posted a reasonable post expressing his concerns about the SK class.  Some I agree with, some I don't.  Overall he has been flamed for stating his opinion, and I feel that was uncalled for.  Whether you agree with him or not, you could respond civily, rather than some of the remarks I've seen posted.  True, this is a tweaking stage, but if problems aren't discussed now, we will be left standing while the other classes are having their problems fixed.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a tank, I do feel SK's are slightly underpowered.  We have sufficent buffs, as I'm learning, to make up for some of this.  However, if I wanted to play a buff monger, I would be a cleric.  As a sk from back in the days of EQ 1, it is my opinion that our spells should be offensive in nature, revolving around dot's and afflictions, not so group defensive.  Mind, I've not had any serious difficulty tanking, and I normally hunt group mobs.  The way we have to do it, I think it's a pain in the a** at times, and not the way SK's should have to deal with it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's my opinion, flame it if you like, I frankly don't care.  But give the guy who made this thread a little respect, he has shown more than quite a few of the posters *not all* in trying to remain civil in the face of such drivel.  </DIV>

TalinorColdwind
12-09-2004, 03:35 PM
<DIV>First off Again this is not EQ1 what does it take to drive that threw peoples heads so stop compareing them. EQ2 is nothing like EQ1 in any aspect. 2nd our buffs are mainly for us all though u can share them with grp SOE has done that to keep it grp oriented. Also why give us all offensive spells when in this game you have to chose between if you are going pure def or pure offence. I know if I am not in def mode I take way more dmg then if I was in def mode. And if you are a SK and have no clue what I am talking about between the 2 then there is your problem find a new class or learn  your class. If you give sk's pure offensive spells then that will take away from us being Tanks .( BAD IDEA)  I would just like to know how we are under powered I Just do not see it . I think the way SOE has made each class have a specific job role makes the game fun and more interesting to hunt due to you have to work as a TEAM I know those that compare this to EQ1 complain about underpowered well they made it where you have to be grouped to accomplish things not just be a lvl 70 with 300plus aa's and u go solo dragons and plains and such that makes the game boreing SO GET OVER IT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>24 Troll SK Steamfont</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Talinor Coldwind</DIV>

TalinorColdwind
12-09-2004, 03:36 PM
<DIV> <DIV>OK let me help those out that might not understand the defference between Defence mode and offence mode. First off you give yourself your str/con buff then you use knight stance which increases def rating and increases chance to block with shield and dodge, at same time it lowers offence att rating with weapons, then you use toughness and your DoF and you have more of a dmg mitigation then a Guardian ever will now of course you can DoF a guardian and intervene to help them MT but I find it on Intervene not only you take the persons dmg but if the mob barrages you are just dead due to you get the barragex2 due to you taking the intervenes chars dmg along with your own. Plus I find it with your str/con and Knights stance you don't have anymore con points left. But it is well worth it due to your Deffencive ability, you just have to let others deal the dmg while you hold agro. Which I find easy to do I have noproblem holding agro even against people 5 lvls over myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Talinor Coldwind</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by TalinorColdwind on <span class=date_text>12-09-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:41 AM</span>

Deadjest
12-09-2004, 06:40 PM
<DIV>I think we are a tad underpowered but thats it, and tweaking will come with time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think what many forget is we ARE Shadow Knights, not Paladins.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shadow Knights that are tanks that are Ofense in nature with a side effect that ends up being Defensive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We should have some of the standard defense buffs but it should stop at a point and switch over where we steal the offense and defense from a mob and grant it to our selves.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think that is what is missing at this point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ac and Atk Taps, at least for my lvl of play I have not seen them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQL has it correct in what a Shadow Knight should be, ya ya ya I know this is not EQL but anyone with a half a brain can figure out if you are a Evil Knight, your spells are going to have a effect that reflects that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladin heals himself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shadow Knight life taps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And on the list goes,  but as is, I think we are a tad underpowered which is not somthing to cry about at this early stage of the came, with so many patches coming out for tweaking we dont know where we will be at from week to week.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think what is missing is the flavor of being a SK to a degree which translate into how we do some things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Balance is VERY hard to achive with so many class's and each one having its own set of abilities.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So just give it time and post your thoughts cause sony needs to hear them if you think somthing is wrong but do it in a construtive manner.</DIV> <DIV>Crying Wolf every other day just makes things become a blue after a while and even Dev teams can't help to some degree tune us out and then they might end up missing something really is wrong with a class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So lets be adults, when handling these issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haruchai</DIV> <DIV>22 Shadow Knight</DIV> <DIV>Highhold</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see no resason we can't be friends till your back is turned and you are in weapons range.</DIV>

Bron
12-09-2004, 08:19 PM
<DIV>Level 32 SK here to say that we tank just fine.  Other than several broken spells, a malady from which I am sure every class suffers, I have no complaints at all with my ability to be a main tank, off tank, or even soloer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you find yourelf underpeforming perhaps it's your equipment or spell levels.  If you have alot of blue/green/grey con equipment and app2 versions of your spells then you SHOULD be performing poorly for your level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skrull</DIV> <DIV>Unrest</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Deadjest
12-10-2004, 04:31 AM
<DIV>Heh I would agree if that was the case.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haruchai</DIV> <DIV>22 Shadow Knight</DIV> <DIV>Highkeep</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

TalinorColdwind
12-10-2004, 03:38 PM
<DIV>I agree if your armor is outdated or spell/abilitie lvls are low then it is your own fault you are perfomring poorly. SOE even said tank classes will rely on gear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another thing <SPAN>Deadjester</SPAN>  you are only lvl 22 sk so u barely a sk man all the abilities and spells you have are from your fighter and crusader class tree u barely even have any SK spells or abilities so you wont see any til you grow in all reality you are only a lvl 2 SK lol. Remember SOE made everyone the same and no one truly starts to divide til 30 plus.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Talinor Coldwind 24 Troll SK</DIV>

Deadjest
12-10-2004, 06:58 PM
<DIV>Which I believe I coverd in my posts but thank you for bringing it back up.   This is for the logic impaired who think everything is about our tanking.  I voiced I felt we were a tad underpowered but it was a general post, I didnt point to anything so I see I will have to do it now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I had posted that I felt SKs were tad weaker then I thought they should be, I never said it was in  tanking, I feel I tank just fine, I group with alot of tanks and I dont see a problem so far in my SK tanking abilites.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My concern is more in the offense department, and yes I will spell it out for you here to so people dont have to post we are not a DPS class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No we are not a DPS class but we are a semi Dps Tank.  There is a Difference, anyone who thinks that a SK is some kind of massive group protector needs to rethink the meaning behind Shadow Knight,   I have most of my spells Maxed, its not our spell dmg that so much concerns me but the resist rate WHICH is what I think makes us a tad weaker then we should be at the moment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see alot of resists across my screen,  on paper most of our spells look good but if they are not landing, then they are not doing their job.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since my last post I have been using my HT alot more now, and I got 3 resists in a row once.  Could be bad luck, could be a sign of somthing more.  I am going to go on faith that our resist rates scale with the mobs so for the moment I going to awsume as we get higher in lvl and our spells get stronger it should be constant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>HT should be much lower on a resist table, anything that is so limited in time frame in fast paced game should not be as resisted as it is.   I am not saying it should be irresistable,  just much harder to resist.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As much as class's like to be balanced against each other so they can get groups, so should spells vs enviroment and time table, etc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have played a SK since EQ came out in 99,  EQ2 is not EQL but that does not take away the player experience I have earned and after playing games for so long you get a feel for this and that in a general way.  You can feel how you tank, how much dmg you are doing and how fast you kill compared to other group make ups etc etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And at the moment, my insticts tell me there is somthing wrong with Resists Rates.   That is all, as I gain lvls I will know more about other areas of being a SK.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I am only concerned, not freaking out and crying wolf like many, EQ2 is so new I expect for months to come tweaking will be going on.  And from what I have read around the boards, there are less whine and cheese fests here then many other class boards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haruchai</DIV> <DIV>22 Shadow Knight</DIV> <DIV>Highkeep</DIV>

Bulvyne
12-10-2004, 09:02 PM
<DIV>I find that I am MT in my groups about 60-70% of the time. Mainly because when it comes to tank-classes, a lot of groups end up wanting just one. They'd rather use extra slots for "DPS" classes (rogues/wizards). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I feel that, at this YOUNG time in the game, SK's make acceptable tanks. Comparing my stats with MANY other tanks (i.e Guardians) in groups I've been in, my stats have been comparable. Maybe not "equal", but certainly not abysmal by any means. It's not like Guardians have twice our AC, or 50% more HP. Differences are minimal, at least at this level. I believe the 'spread' will probably widen as we continue to level, but the game is still too young (in my eyes) to make an informed prediction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, there really is a LOT to be said about KNOWING YOUR CLASS. I am not saying any specific person here doesn't know their class. What I am saying is that if you give people the impression that you know what the hell you're doing, and what your abilities are, and if you have CONFIDENCE in your abilities, that will go a long way towards making YOU a more valued/wanted member of a group. I often get tells during an evening of play from people who I've grouped with who would like me to come tank for them, despite the fact that I've seen Guardians LFG. I've been in COUNTLESS groups where we DID have a Guardian as MT, but because of choices they made, we wiped. Sometimes, YOU might be the choice for a group, BECAUSE of who and what you are. But that all depends on whether or not you're really up to the task! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, I am loving the class. No, we don't do "eye-popping" dps. But there's tons of other things we CAN do. I lost count of the number of times I've saved someone with DoF. I've lost count of the number of times I've saved someone with the Embrace. I've lost track of the number of times our group has had someone aggro extra mobs, and I've taken care of the adds with the tools we have available. I think we have a lot to offer, and as people become more knowledgable in the game, only an idiot would think that we SK's have no benefits to bring to the party.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lastly, if there was ONE CHANGE I COULD make, it would be this: Make Harm Touch either unresistable, or near-unresistable. It is SOOOOOO embarassing to have blue/green mobs resist our class-defining-once-every-30-minute ability. Last night, I received loads of love-filled grief from friends in my party when a blue-down-arrow fish RESISTED my Harm Touch. Not-So-Holy crap.   :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bul</DIV><p>Message Edited by Bulvyne on <span class=date_text>12-10-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:04 AM</span>

Silvane
12-10-2004, 09:10 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bulvyne wrote:<BR> <DIV>I find that I am MT in my groups about 60-70% of the time. Mainly because when it comes to tank-classes, a lot of groups end up wanting just one. They'd rather use extra slots for "DPS" classes (rogues/wizards). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I feel that, at this YOUNG time in the game, SK's make acceptable tanks. Comparing my stats with MANY other tanks (i.e Guardians) in groups I've been in, my stats have been comparable. Maybe not "equal", but certainly not abysmal by any means. It's not like Guardians have twice our AC, or 50% more HP. Differences are minimal, at least at this level. I believe the 'spread' will probably widen as we continue to level, but the game is still too young (in my eyes) to make an informed prediction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, there really is a LOT to be said about KNOWING YOUR CLASS. I am not saying any specific person here doesn't know their class. What I am saying is that if you give people the impression that you know what the hell you're doing, and what your abilities are, and if you have CONFIDENCE in your abilities, that will go a long way towards making YOU a more valued/wanted member of a group. I often get tells during an evening of play from people who I've grouped with who would like me to come tank for them, despite the fact that I've seen Guardians LFG. I've been in COUNTLESS groups where we DID have a Guardian as MT, but because of choices they made, we wiped. Sometimes, YOU might be the choice for a group, BECAUSE of who and what you are. But that all depends on whether or not you're really up to the task! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, I am loving the class. No, we don't do "eye-popping" dps. But there's tons of other things we CAN do. I lost count of the number of times I've saved someone with DoF. I've lost count of the number of times I've saved someone with the Embrace. I've lost track of the number of times our group has had someone aggro extra mobs, and I've taken care of the adds with the tools we have available. I think we have a lot to offer, and as people become more knowledgable in the game, only an idiot would think that we SK's have no benefits to bring to the party.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lastly, if there was ONE CHANGE I COULD make, it would be this: Make Harm Touch either unresistable, or near-unresistable. It is SOOOOOO embarassing to have blue/green mobs resist our class-defining-once-every-30-minute ability. Last night, I received loads of love-filled grief from friends in my party when a blue-down-arrow fish RESISTED my Harm Touch. Not-So-Holy crap.   :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bul</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Bulvyne on <SPAN class=date_text>12-10-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:04 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Great post. I am also enjoying it even though I am just into 20 but something I have seen grouping with higher level tanks is that some just don't care about their job. They are not really *aware* of what else is going on except for what is right in front of them. Not necessarily picking on guardians here but many seem to have the uber tank mentality and it takes them quite a while before they realize they lost aggro on a mob and the healer is in the red before they react. Personally, as soon as a mob breaks from my "circle of hate" I'm going after him and doing everything in my power to get the aggro back. Sometimes though, if its a priest who has been chain healing himself its tough to get it off or if its a wizzie who decided he was going to AE nuke on the pull not much you can do except for break out the sponge and clean up the mess he left.<BR>

WuphonsReach
12-11-2004, 03:15 AM
On that note, one thing that makes enchanters extremely happy and they will send you tells in the future:- Pay attention to which what order the enchanter is mezzing mobs. When the first mob dies, target the "oldest" mezzed mob (IOW, the one that is going to break mez earliest). Inflame and then break the mez with something that carries a bit of aggro. Due to auto-assist, you have to be *fast* at attacking right *after* targeting, because others will immediately be attacking if they have auto-attack turned on. It may even be better to switch targets slowly so that you don't mis-pick (pick *once* and stick with your pick, changing your target will tick the enchanter off more then picking the wrong target in the first place).At least, that seems to be how the enchanter that I run with prefers things.

Mmaster
01-20-2005, 08:56 PM
Coming from the experience of a level 33 SK, I do not feel underpowered at all, but I do feel let down that I am not a more acceptable DPS in most peoples eyes. I assumed that the SK would be similiar to the SK's of EQ1, but the SK's of EQ2 are far from it, but I am not disapointed at all, this is a different game. The only thing that would have been helpfull is the clarification that all the fighter classes infact ARE tanks. Not hybrids of dps/tank's, with that information I would have chosen my focus abilities more accordingly eg.(instead of choosing Strenth, I would have chosen Stamina), but that doesnt mean I dont do reasonable damage. I am able to keep up with DPS in my groups while tank, and not, but that just isnt what we are meant to do in EQ2, and that is a fact; meaning we are over powered at the moment, not underpowered. Basically we are able to choose our subclass for variations of playing style, Guardians are the high AC'ers with their Tower Shields that gain aggro in other ways rather than damage like the berserkers do, Monks and Bruisers are tanks(or will be tanks) made possible by their agility, and evasion skills and damage for getting aggro, the SK's are sufficient tanks for their ability to wear heavy armors, and the added ability to do damage, and get aggro from their health stealing attacks, with the added abilities for keeping the party alive for when their fairly weak taunts fail. Shadow Knights are not underpowered, they are simply just there to tank a different way, and you have to find out how to use the SK's abilities for your advantage as SK's.We also can kite =) I can very easily kite blue^^ named mobs with my horse, by using ranged attacks to get my HO off, and just stay a distance away from the mob, so not to take damage.(Take into account I havent slept in quite a number of hours)

asteldian
01-20-2005, 09:32 PM
<DIV>Yes you do work hard as an SK, but thats the point, as a class that can provide more than just one role you work harder so you can do lots to help group, help healers power, help DPS...its why people love the class, if you dont want to work hard then SK and pally are not the right clss for you.  You can be lazy and just do bare minimum and tank and keep aggro if you like, though it defeats the point of the class</DIV>

Mundyman
01-20-2005, 10:27 PM
<DIV>The origional post on this thread is completely foolish in my opinion. SK's are not the best at teverthing class that the poster is expecting so we are underpowered? laughable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I nearly always use Demonstration of faith, even with Cleric types in group. It just help as a whole, even when secondary tank i use it for the MT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>99% of my groupiong time I act as main tank for my group, and I love the roll. I understand, as the poster should try to, that as Main Tank, I am not to do the most damage in the group, that can be the Assassins role, I taunt. I taunt as often as i can. I conduct the symphony that is my group by calling the target and making sure i keep its full attention, while making sure that the fellas in cloth are not getting beaten on by anything.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While working on, i believe, my AQ 2 deep in Fallen gate we had a fine group. I was pulling everything in the bottom Giant Wretch room and were worked masterfully. It made me very proud when the Cohercer in our group said that I had revived her faith in the Shadowknight class by doing such a job. I felt appreciated and great, I dont say this to brag, I say this to point out that we are a fine class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Roleplay, ok were not the Evil anti-Paladin we once were perhaps. but for crying out loud, learn your role and excell, but if nothin else, just stop speaking for me and the other fine SK's when your post all over these forrums with your whines.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guano</DIV> <DIV>24 Shadowknight</DIV> <DIV>21 Armorer</DIV> <DIV>Najena, soon to be Grobb</DIV>

Anul
01-20-2005, 11:04 PM
<DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT color=#ff9900>There must be a happy/unhappy medium somewhere. SK's  arn't bad, they arn't great either... It's just what we are.  </FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV></DIV>

strath
01-21-2005, 10:52 PM
<DIV>Dont get me wrong, i play my class to the best that i can see how to, an di enjoy playing him,but all you lvl 20somethign shadows taht say were as good as the next tanks....wait till lvl 30 + youll start to see how far were falling behind, lack of weapons selection, lack of usefull abilities, lack of utility abilities, all to often i run into people that ask me what class i am when lfg, when i reply shadow, the next thing i see them say is a shout for a gaurdian or zerker :smileysad:</DIV>

Kl
01-22-2005, 01:59 AM
<DIV>I am only level 34 at the moment, but if you think that at this level (or before 34) that shadowknights suck, then it's simply you that sucks. Either that or you have some horribly equipment. I can't speak for level 34+ ofcourse (yet). Often when I turn on /lfg I get a group invite within minutes. </DIV>

Recne
01-22-2005, 02:13 AM
Well, I have to say that this post is kinda on the mark for my thoughts. However, I am also going to say I don't see this as a bad thing.I personally think that if I equip a 2 handed sword as an sk I should be able to make a dent in things. Should I outdamage the thieves, no. But making a bigger dent would be nice.. considering for the most part they are using faster weapons and outdamaging me by a long shot.The one thing imho an SK should be good at is maintaining and managing aggro. The guardian should be a better tank, but if I want the aggro from him, I should be able to get it. I'm an "evil" knight. People should want my head on a platter. I shouldn't have to work so incredibly hard to get them to want to kill me <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Of course the guardian should definately defend better, so it would be wiser for me to keep my mouth shut... (which I will do because part of being evil is having stooges get beat up for you).The only other thing I can say is, I would be very happy with my class if they would adjust the lifetaps to something more appropriate. I'm not going to say what that is, but imho they are pretty pathetic. A only halfway serious post.-Receneps

roza
01-22-2005, 07:05 AM
<DIV> <DIV>well, acctualy coming from EQL and EQOA Shadowknights are underpowered.... which i dont mind to much it is a fun class overall.. the only thing i have problems with our my taunts, i have an Adept 1 of Inflame, and my Group Taunt is Decree of Decay App3, my Taunt is App4.... i usually pull with Tainted Carress then taunt with both, deal some damage, taunt, damage, taunt, damage, taunt, damage... etc throughout the fight but where as a 30 berserker's taunts are far superior to my level 31... i struggle holding aggro to a 33 bruiser/monk & of course an assassin <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />... but my friend can rock the aggro like nothin.. heh...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AC wise.. i have no complaints, i acctualy have more ac as a Dark Elf Shadowknight than my friend does as a Kerran Berserker..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so the only real complaint i have is my hate spells /shrug... maybe im doin something wrong though, but its what i have doen through eql and eqoa and havent had problems with it yet. (dont say this is a new game bla bla bla)... if any of you who are around my level can hold the aggro to those classes, tell me what you do exactly for it..... <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV></DIV>

Kl
01-22-2005, 02:19 PM
<DIV>A tank should never lose aggro on a single target. If you start the pull with a Heroic Opputunity (I use Condemning Spirit > HO starter skill > Fetid Grasp > Disease Cloud - can all be cast on the run), and then cast a taunt sometimes during the fight, then it's quite unlikely you will lose aggro.</DIV>

Aza
01-22-2005, 03:27 PM
thats true.. single targets pose no problem.. its with multi mob groups where the problems arise <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Shadame
01-22-2005, 07:26 PM
It's also very hard to regain agro once lost...I know I have to spam every button I have to regain agro if I loose it to a dps, and then I'm down like 2 or 3 bubs of power.Resuce is worthless, as far as I've seen.

Blackdog183
01-22-2005, 08:34 PM
<DIV>Thought Id jump in here to say mu my 2cp... First off do I feel SK as a class is underpowered, no.  I do however feel theres some things that are imbalanced, and bugged....theres a differenece between the 2, so I will explain in a sec.  Most groups I get into dont ever have a problem with me being a tank, hell in alot of groups, I get dibbs on my tanking ability.  Alot of times if theres more than one tank, Im the MT, even when we have a guardian or pally, why u ask?  Because i know the class, I know the skills, and alot of time I have MORE AC and hps bcause i invested time and money into upgrading my gear and spells.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My 1 and only balance issue at level 24 is this:  Paladins get a heal that heals for 200-300 at lvl 22(ish), we get a lifetap that taps for a whopping 8 hps at my level...this is grossly imbalanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bug issue: the timer in GE being at 30 mins when its SUPPOSED to be at 5.  This is a life saving skill when used properly, it needs to get fixed asap</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just plain broke:  this goes for all tank classes: TAUNTS SUCK, they dont do [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] to get aggro off someone, and with aggro just deciding to switch to the healer, it shouldnt require 5+ taunts to pull the mob off</DIV>

WuphonsReach
01-25-2005, 01:52 AM
Wow, who dug up this old thread!I'm sure I've said it before, but I'll say it again. One of the things that I've sent in /feedback about is that taunt spells should do quad-hate if the caster is not already at the top of the hate list. That would, I think, manage to fix the taunt spells that they serve their proper role (to bring aggro back on the main tank) without making them overpowered so that the tank never loses aggro in the first place.I like (yes, I'm demented) that aggro can be loose and scattered at times. That it requires effort by all in order to keep aggro where it belongs. I just wish that it was a touch easier to get it back once it is lost.So feedback ideas (or /bug reports if you think they're bugs instead):- Graven Embrace moved back to a 5 minute timer. Maybe give varying recast timers based on the level of the spell (appr 1-4 would be 6 minutes, adept would be 5 minutes, master would be 4 minutes).- Rescue reduced to a 5 minute timer.- Taunt spells do quad hate to a mob if the caster is not at the top of the hate list for that mob.Fire up yer quills!

megatra
01-26-2005, 06:33 PM
<DIV>yawn</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if you don't like it, don't play it.</DIV>

Bron
01-26-2005, 08:51 PM
Since someone dug this old thread up, let me just give my experience as a level 50 SK.Despite some broken spells, we rule.Once you hit higher levels your DPS will greatly increase, and knowledgeable players will pick an SK for DPS in a heartbeat and I've never been turned down for a tanking role either.We might be the best soloers in the game, I've yet to see any class solo things I cannot and have seen many fail to solo the things I can.Just remember you are no better than your best spells and equipment. No matter how skilled you are your apprentice2 taunt isn't going to cut it sometimes. Take your time leveling and do some quests to upgrade your equipment and spend your cash on spell upgrades (at least app4). I see some tanks running around with armor that's been grey to them for 5+ levels and quite frankly I wouldn't want them to tank for me either.Play smart. Experiment with your spells and holding agro. Get a 2-handed weapon for when you are not the main tank. Use your group buffs as often as mana permits. If you're not main tanking USE YOUR MANA, this goes for all classes, it's pointless to be at 90% mana at the end of an encounter when you can regen 25% in the time it takes to pull the next mob.So basically just want to say to lower level SKs, do not despair. We're a balanced archetype and fun to play to boot all the way to level 50.Skrull50 SKUnrest

Chickenha
01-27-2005, 02:35 AM
<DIV>SK's are seriously lacking, I find it quite laughable that you flamed this guy for some reasonable points, don;t get me wrong.....it was in places laid on a little thick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But lets just give an example.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a level 25 SK.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Today whilst wandering around in Nek forest I came across a level 25 Inquisitor, he asked if I would kindly help him recover his shard by helping him take out 2 1 up arrow level 24 dragoons, thats one level lower than me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I spammed all my DPS, the Inquisitor ran out of mana trying to heal me just as the first dragoon fell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have very good equipment, a mix of cold forged armour and pristine Vanguard, decent pristine 2 handed sword.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The DPS increase on group mobs is tearing through my ward like a hot knife through butter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Spamming my damage spells will drain my mana pool in matter of seconds and do very little to the mob I am attacking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don;t ask to be the best tank, I dont ask to be the best DPS, I dont even ask to be comaprable, but how about being effective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I work my [FaarNerfed!] off in a team when I play main tank........Pally's get it real easy with that heal of theirs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Chickenha
01-27-2005, 02:38 AM
<DIV>To make my point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My level 25 Necromancer friend has a pet (a fallen hero).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This pet puts out significantly higher damage than me, and believe it or not takes comparable amounts of damage, thats pretty embarrasing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Kl
01-27-2005, 02:45 AM
<DIV>Don't blame the class just because you happen to suck.</DIV>

Bhodi
01-27-2005, 03:12 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chickenhawk wrote:<BR> <DIV>SK's are seriously lacking, I find it quite laughable that you flamed this guy for some reasonable points, don;t get me wrong.....it was in places laid on a little thick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But lets just give an example.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>I have a level 25 SK.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Today whilst wandering around in Nek forest I came across a level 25 Inquisitor, he asked if I would kindly help him recover his shard by helping him take out 2 1 up arrow level 24 dragoons, thats one level lower than me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I spammed all my DPS, the Inquisitor ran out of mana trying to heal me just as the first dragoon fell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have very good equipment, a mix of cold forged armour and pristine Vanguard, decent pristine 2 handed sword.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The DPS increase on group mobs is tearing through my ward like a hot knife through butter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Spamming my damage spells will drain my mana pool in matter of seconds and do very little to the mob I am attacking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don;t ask to be the best tank, I dont ask to be the best DPS, I dont even ask to be comaprable, but how about being effective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I work my [FaarNerfed!] off in a team when I play main tank........Pally's get it real easy with that heal of theirs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>wrong...you are level 5 SK.....lvl 20 Fighter<BR>

Chickenha
01-27-2005, 03:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>wrong...you are level 5 SK.....lvl 20 Fighter<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Doesnt change the issue, thats purely semantics.</P> <P> </P> <P>Besides, if you want to be pedantic....</P> <P>I'm a....</P> <P>Level 10 Fighter</P> <P>Level 10 Crusader</P> <P>Level 5 Shadowknight</P> <P>Lets not get silly eh.</P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> </FONT><p>Message Edited by Chickenhawk on <span class=date_text>01-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:29 PM</span>

Chickenha
01-27-2005, 03:34 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kluk wrote:<BR> <DIV>Don't blame the class just because you happen to suck.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Took a long time to come up with that insult didn't it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Regardless of what you may think about my ability in this game I didn't get where I am in life by accepting being "average", which is exactly what the shadowknight class is.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and trust me, I'm doing very well in life.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>If you don't think the class is average then your kidding yourself, feel fee to carry on in your own little perpetual world where you are truly uber.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV>

Siner
01-27-2005, 05:52 AM
First you say SKs are "seriously lacking" then you say they are "average." Which is it?

Kl
01-27-2005, 06:13 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chickenhawk wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kluk wrote:<BR> <DIV>Don't blame the class just because you happen to suck.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Took a long time to come up with that insult didn't it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>Regardless of what you may think about my ability in this game I didn't get where I am in life by accepting being "average", which is exactly what the shadowknight class is.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>Oh and trust me, I'm doing very well in life.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV>If you don't think the class is average then your kidding yourself, feel fee to carry on in your own little perpetual world where you are truly uber.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Before you start bragging about how awesome your real life is, let me tell you that I just don't care. I do find it funny that somehow you must be a good EQ2 player because you have a good real life though. And no, it didn't take very long to come up with that insult.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>You said you had problems tanking some mobs that were 1 lower level than you. Here's some advice to you: How about you use a shield, when you're tanking mobs? I noticed that when you were describing how good your equipment was, that you said you were using a 2 handed sword. Oh and please tell me the secret of being able to go through a full manabar in 'a matter of seconds', without cheating and using sprint. Even when I use all the attack / buff spells I have (Painbringer, Consume Vitae, Unholy Aura, and so on) I still can't empty my manabar in 'a matter of seconds'.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV>

Bhodi
01-27-2005, 07:52 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chickenhawk wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>wrong...you are level 5 SK.....lvl 20 Fighter<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Doesnt change the issue, thats purely semantics.</P> <P> </P> <P>Besides, if you want to be pedantic....</P> <P>I'm a....</P> <P>Level 10 Fighter</P> <P>Level 10 Crusader</P> <P>Level 5 Shadowknight</P> <P>Lets not get silly eh.</P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> </FONT> <P>Message Edited by Chickenhawk on <SPAN class=date_text>01-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:29 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Like mentioned above you are using wrong equipment to start with.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>what you should be using is:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skullcrusher ---- 1 handed hammer (quest drop from Fallen Gate) - --- use this until you can use a nice schimitar or Bloodstained hammer</DIV> <DIV>Stormshield ---- kite shield (drop from griffon) use until you can kill a beaver at Nek forest to get Waterlogged kite shield----upgrade later to Sheer Kite shield dropp from Ruins of Varsoon</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second ---- dont spam your specials...utilize your wheel with HO....normally start wheel , advance with a special, finish with a taunt...you get bonus damage applied and in between that you can throw another spetial....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also teamed up with the cleric both of you would have been able to use HO's to full advantage ...2 possible wheel results....1 slows the mob down , second deals nice damage with a "hammer" symbol from cleric and "sword" symbol from you, plus bonus damage.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

archereb
02-14-2005, 12:55 PM
Tezen wrote:"I chose shadowknight to be an offensive character, I don't want more utility spells to buff my group up and such. If I wanted that I would have gone paladin"yep you said it. Why am i buffing people? Why am I FDing otherpeople? Why am I evacing the group? Why do i need to gate?If I wanted to be doing all that i would have played a druidor a cleric. What happened to all my utilities? If I lookedat level 40+ spells, I'd wish I had something that was SKish ...like maybe a decent drain spell. The only reason I enjoyedplaying a SK in EQ for 5 years was cause i could slowly drainthe life out of stuff while i slashed. I felt like a vampire. Now i just feel like a fluffy panzy. "Look atme i can ride a hoursey". I would trade the gate,the horse, the evac spell for a "SHADOW" step at level40 anyday. If i knew i would get a decent utility spellat 40 I would have something to work for ... somethingto keep my interest while i play a bland fighter for 40 levels.Gettin tired of casters stealing the aggro so easily ...Next time some caster pulls the trigger too soon andblows it for himself, I'll forget i can FD him. If theycan't figure it out, they deserve to die. "What you meanI could have evac'ed the group? ... na i didn't feellike leaving the fight just yet." "I am going to holdthe line like a real fighter should until my very end".No range weapon? That's ok. Take away my bow, but whycan't I throw something? A rock maybe. Can you letme throw a pebble? I want to be able to throw some dirt.oh well. I think I will restart my old EQ account justso that I can run thru every zone and fear everythingin site .... i need that fix. I won't get hooked unlessthey put the "crack" back into evercrack. Sorry about the whining post. I never needed to whineabout anything in eq1. I may have asked once for the GM to help me get my corpse from under the world.I didn't have time for nagging, i was too busyplaying. Maybe the game is too young, maybe itslike some say "its only 50% done", whatever ... theyshouldn't have conned me into thinking this gamehad an SK class.As for nerfing the of fd (alias GE):That's ok, I understand why things are always going toget nerfed: Its easier to remove code than it isto write new code. (like maybe locking the harvesting encounter?)Nerfing is just a cheaper solution to all problems.I have a good idea for the shadowknights: give us thefear spell, but allow us to cast it on anyone, not justNPCs. Or maybe AE fear spell on anyone with a 2 sec recast.Now that would be a fun game. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by archerebus on <span class=date_text>02-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:56 PM</span><p>Message Edited by archerebus on <span class=date_text>02-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:58 PM</span><p>Message Edited by archerebus on <span class=date_text>02-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:03 AM</span><p>Message Edited by archerebus on <span class=date_text>02-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:35 AM</span>

Sevren
02-14-2005, 01:48 PM
<DIV>I think Bronto about sumed it up there ..../bows ..</DIV>

vwlsskng
02-15-2005, 12:13 AM
<P>EQL Shadow Knight: <A href="http://swissarmy.com/" target=_blank>http://swissarmy.com/</A></P> <P>EQ2 Shadowknight: <A href="http://www.asseenontv.com/" target=_blank>http://www.asseenontv.com/</A></P>