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switchdoc
11-24-2004, 09:17 PM
<DIV>Heya all,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a 13 Crusader on the way to becoming a Shadow night. I thought I had a pretty good idea of my role in a group, but last night the group I was in really confused me, so I am looking for some information/advice on how I should be playing this class in a group setting, both at the Crusader level, and when I get my SK badge.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, here is the group. A trio with my wife (15 healer) and a guildie (15 or 16 predator) and me (13 crusader). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My assumption in this setting is that I am going to be the tank, which means I need to keep and hold aggro. The problem is, that scout does such amazing DPS that I couldn't pull aggro off him with a shoehorn. I'd use all three of my current spells for increasing hate, and they'd blithely ignore me and continue beatiing on that guy. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My other assumption was that I was going to be a DPS class of some kind. Getting all up close and personal, wailing away with my sword, causing serious injury to beasties, etc. But, as mentioned this scout seemed to be out-damaging me in a serious way. I ended up spending the rest of the group warding him and trying to get my licks in when I could.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But, the encounter got me concerned, I mean granted he was 2-3 levels higher than me, but he was doing both of what I thought my jobs were (and pulling too!) way better than me. Is this Sk gonna end up being that 'extra guy with a sword thats nice to have but you certainly don't need him' class?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Or do I have my role in the group completely backwards?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks in advance!</DIV>

Hagginsb
11-24-2004, 09:29 PM
The only problem is that you are too low of a level to taunt off him. If you were the same level it wouldn't be much of a problem. It seems the best situation is one where the MT is also the highest level person in the group.

Nefariouso
11-24-2004, 10:26 PM
First off, I think it's important for the tank to be one of the highest level members of the party. Being up to 3 levels lower than the highest member, I think that caused some problems. In most MMORPGs the mobs hate level decreases with damage that in inflicts on it's target. The more damage you take, the less hate that you hold. Your ability to gain hate through damage is also impaired because of the level difference.Second, Predators/Assasins are the hardest hitters in the game (not necessarily in terms of DOT or DPS but in bursts of damage). Those high bursts of damage are usually at the start of the fight, before you've had a chance to really lay into the mob.Third, I try to use my HO's as often as possible. It turns my taunts into extra damage (and pretty good damage at that) which also helps gain aggro.<p>Message Edited by Nefariousone on <span class=date_text>11-24-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:24 PM</span>

vTenebr
11-25-2004, 01:30 AM
As a tank, because that is what you are, all you're expected to do is to do your damndest to retain agro. If you're the low man compared to the DPS person, that MAY be difficult to do. I GENERALLY don't have a problem maintaining agro until someone starts powernuking before I even get into the camp with my mob, or my dumb*** forgot to ward as I pulled and my healer has to chain to keep me alive.Try to establish a bit of a groundwork. If you're the person who's supposed to be the MT, set some guidelines that will help you maintain proper mob control. ie: You pull, you get agro, THEN they jump all over assisting on you. You're MUCH more apt to keep agro if you're the one pulling. It's easier to KEEP agro, than to get agro BACK from a high dmg person.I keep pretty good agro..and I'm a rat *eg*

sharz
11-25-2004, 06:31 AM
<DIV>do shadowknights really get horses at lvl 20?</DIV> <DIV>if they do i heard i get them from my trainer?</DIV> <DIV>whats me trainers name and where do i find him?</DIV>

Anash
11-26-2004, 12:53 AM
<DIV>Most of the time in a group I just taunt or DoT between HOs, something to keep in mind is demostration of faith causes aggro so using it on someone being attacked will help you gain aggro. If you are clicked on a mob your good spells will go on whatever it has targeted, so if you are needing to DoF someone, click on the monster attacking them and cast it, then you can chain stun and taunt till you get aggro back.</DIV>

Darkall
11-26-2004, 01:05 AM
<DIV>When playing with other experienced people, I have had zero problems keeping agro as a crusader.  If the predator takes agro not once, not twice, but in most fights, then he seriously needs to learn what he is doing is a mistake, and can easily lead to deaths all around.  If you are just casually fighting low risk mobs, its not a big deal, but in any risky situation, nukers and rogue-types should always be mindful of over-attacking and gaining agro.  I think you also mentioned he was pulling, and this just adds to the problem he is creating as he is getting a jump-start on generating hate while you are just standing there.  If you are the established tank, all other high dmg classes should be making an effort to let you gain aggro first, and if they are not, then you should reconsider grouping with them in the future.  As mentioned before, your lower lvl is part of the problem, but as long as you don't have all your taunts at app1 or something, the crusader should have all the tools they need to get/keep taunt off of anyone who knows how to keep a group succesfull.</DIV>

Zyr
11-26-2004, 04:40 AM
<DIV>My experiences with being a tank and a damage dealer is that when i was playing the role of the damage dealer, you have to wait tell the tank has enough arggo. With that in mind the damage deal needs to wait on the huge abilities with high damage for when the mob is half life or less. The damage dealer is there to finish the mob not to do as much dmg threw the hole fight. Then you dont have problems with arggo ( atleast not as much lol). This is why its important for the heavy armor and for them to use all of the HO's, taunts or any special ability that will make the mob mad.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zyren</DIV>

nofseratu
11-26-2004, 05:27 AM
<DIV>heres the thing....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>even if you are 6 levels lower than everyone else in your group, you can still hold aggro. the key is that you HAVE to upgrade your skills (even if you have only app1 you can still do this...but you may have to do nothing but spam your taunts) i have never really had an issue holding aggro. i am a lvl 21 SK.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as far as "what is your role"?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>well, if you are the main tank you need to focus on taunts (spam them if necessary) and save all your power to just taunt and ward yourself.....dont worry about damage, it is not your role as a main tank......your role as a main tank is to taunt/hold aggro and keep yourself warded.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the role of a crusader/shadowknigt is really a secondary tank and are EXTREMELY useful to play as one. what you want to do in the situation of being a secondary tank is KEEP THE MAIN TANK WARDED, use intervene on him (dont be selfish and use knights stance on yourself because it uses 3 concentration) keep your main tank protected and dont taunt anything (with the exception of adds until the main taunts them) and in the mean time hit the mob like hell (but remember to keep enough power to keep your main tank protected).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the bottom line is, as a tank; secondary or main............you CANNOT be a selfish player, you have to be willing to die for the team, tell everyone to run while you keep the mobs taunted if you get into trouble......1 death in a group is much better than the whole group getting wiped.</DIV>

Veuclori
11-26-2004, 10:13 AM
<DIV>Anyone know where SK will likley end up at the end of the game? MT?  Extra meat shield? Damage dealer?</DIV>

swampthing
11-26-2004, 05:51 PM
<blockquote><hr>Veuclorion wrote:<DIV>Anyone know where SK will likley end up at the end of the game? MT? Extra meat shield? Damage dealer?</div><hr></blockquote>I'm sure all the level 50's will post the answer for ya.....Check your magic 8 ball, that's as good a guess as anyone can make right now.

Tyd
11-26-2004, 07:49 PM
<DIV>Posted this on a post below, but ill share it here as well:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>I am at the moment a lvl 25 SK. I find the points that we can't hold aggro valid.</DIV> <DIV>If i chaintaunt i have no problem keeping aggro from a solo mob with the 2 taunts i have (Inflame (adept1) and Decree of Decay (app1)). According the the beta skill-list we would get 1 or 2 more taunts at this level, but they removed them for some reason. I would also use the skill "Shout" if not for the fact that it also disabled "Decree of Decay" and i need to wait for both these taunts when i've used one. The same occurs with Inflame vs. Taunt.. Which means i have 4 but can only use 2.</DIV> <DIV>As someone mentioned, is long as i have aggro im fine, but if i loose it - i will have a real hard time getting it back. Say i loose aggro with 3 out of four mobs in an encounter. I keep the one im hurting/inflaming but the others run off. So i target one of the other 3 casts inflame, which wont work and quene "Decree of Decay". The one i inflamed targets me again, but the other two are unaffected by my "DoD" and with a 30sec recharge the cleric or whoever got their aggro is probably toast or has accumulated loads more of aggro from defensive spells before i can use it again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What i try to do to keep aggro - which wont always work - is this:</DIV> <DIV>1. Tell your group that you need to get aggro before they start chaincasting, tell em to be cool at the start.</DIV> <DIV>2. I often start pulling with "Grim Coil" since it ends up giving the target around 120 damage after 3 rds, and has great range. On the way to the group i use Decree of Decay and Inflame.</DIV> <DIV>3. When the encounter is all in melee with me i use "Cry of Conviction" to deal out some AE damage hoping no wandering monsters will get sucked in to the fight.</DIV> <DIV>4. Use "Demonstration of Faith" and "Faithful Swing" since both these have defensive properties (DoF: Ward, FS: small heal).</DIV> <DIV>5. Use the above mentioned spells/skills as often as possible</DIV> <DIV>==============================================</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yesterday i teamed up with a lvl 25 (same as i) Berserker. Since i had more AC and he had more Attack i became "main tank". Now to the funny part: Even though i chaintatunted and the berserker didnt even try - he ended up with the aggro every time... How bad is that?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im betting that the SKs have the hardest time holding aggro because: We get less taunts then anyone but the Pally, but i am pretty sure that the pally heals and such accumulates aggro like nothing else.</DIV> <DIV>Shadowknights really are 2ndary tanks, which i find wrong - We will become the unwanted member of groups unless this is adjusted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ohh and a final pointer: Don't use "Intervene"! Last night when intervening the above mentioned Berserker - i died before the clerics (or I) noticed it, fighting mobs doing 50-100 damage/attack tops. If i cant use Intervene, im not even a great 2ndary.. <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif" width=16 border=0></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My 2 cents.</DIV></DIV>

Anash
11-26-2004, 08:39 PM
<DIV>I have no Idea why anyone would want to intervene the main tank, a purpose of a main tank is to take all the damage so the healers can stay targeting him and focus on healing him, if you are intervening the MT you are taking as much hits as the MT, you might as well start taunting the mob off the MT altogether at that point. I find it way more useful to use knights stance as MT, or as a second tank to intervene the main healer and enchanter/second healer. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If im MT i usually pull with grim coil or righteous anger, follow up with a shout(or highest taunt if singles), hit my DoF, if we have a mezzer I will wait for a mob to hit me so I auto target before I attack it which keeps me from accidentally breaking mez, if there are more than one left I keep using shout every time its up and taunting the one I have targeted between HOs. this has worked real nicely for me, if something aggros on mezzer or healer or DPS I chain stun and taunt it till its either dead or I have aggro back.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Anash on <span class=date_text>11-26-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:45 AM</span>

Yinmaren
11-29-2004, 04:58 AM
<DIV>Here is my 2 cents. If you have a monk/bruiser in your group, let him hold the agro, but put intervene on him. He can put a dmg dampering buff on you which lowers the amount of dmg taken (brawler skill). If you have a monk in your group, they can they put a buff on the healer which lowers their hate. This works especially well with trios. In larger groups, the SK should be the MT unless a guardian is available.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only reason SK's were the MT in large groups in EQLive is because of their DPS. They had the same skills as a warrior had, but with HT. Spells are what helped the SK hold agro in EQLive and expect this to be the same later on in the game. I think SK's will have the easiest time holding agro, and we will be a main source of direct dmg on boss mobs with HT considering the debuffs we get.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For now, the SK should be a secondary tank, helping control agro off of clerics, doing extra dmg, and being another meat shield.</DIV>

Bellic
11-29-2004, 05:03 AM
<DIV>That rogue or what ever should have been useing evade.</DIV>

Zutan
11-29-2004, 05:44 AM
<DIV>I'f Im the Main Tank I use knights stance mostly and just maintain agro (generally easy to do unless people are being stupid)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If Im a secondary tank in the group I use the "offering of armament" ability on the Main Tank. This takes a chunk of MY AC and gives it to the Main Tank.  This increases his ability to tank quite a bit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I only use intervene if the healer gets Low Power and we need main tank needs to be kept alive a bit longer.</DIV>

WuphonsReach
11-29-2004, 08:08 AM
SKs didn't hold aggro in EQ1 groups because of DPS, at least not for the year that I played one. We held aggro easily because disease-based spells had such a huge aggro factor (that later got toned down a good bit). It was to the point that I could turn off attack, stand there, and keep aggro just through my use of spells. Ask a shaman that played prior to the change how often they would die on raids due to their disease-based slow spell.EQ2 is a different game, different rules.We do well as either MA or SA in EQ2. Knight's Stance + shield for when we're the MA, Offering of Armament + Intervene (cast on the cleric or crowd control class) when we're the SA.

sieusamsie
11-29-2004, 09:08 AM
<DIV>heya,Im currently lvl 22 atm and but when I was lvl 14 I had no problem holding aggro from a 18 predator.FIrst pull with taunt if you can,the shield bash also increases aggro and basically I would try to do my HO,either way I would taunt once in a while and had no trouble keeping taunt at all.You defninitely have to use shout to pull if your pulling more than one or else the first heal,the mobs will aggro the healer.Very important also to upgrade your taunt abilities,helps quite a bit.</DIV>

jrse
11-29-2004, 10:17 AM
<blockquote><hr>swampthing wrote:<blockquote><hr>Veuclorion wrote:<DIV>Anyone know where SK will likley end up at the end of the game? MT? Extra meat shield? Damage dealer?</div><hr></blockquote>I'm sure all the level 50's will post the answer for ya.....Check your magic 8 ball, that's as good a guess as anyone can make right now.<hr></blockquote>It's called Beta.....

PellonPek
11-30-2004, 07:52 PM
<DIV>I usually have no problem holding aggro as 19 Crusader, but yesterday I grouped at Zarvonn's instance and it was odd. The Fury in my group (was level 21) almost constantly got aggro off me. I was the puller and most of the time had good time to build aggro at start of the battle. Then the Fury casts one or two HoTs on me and BANG he has aggro from most of the mobs in the encounter. I then try to get those mobs off him, but the Fury pretty much handled tanking on those fights. Anyone else have this problem with Furies?</DIV>

Val155
11-30-2004, 08:15 PM
<DIV>Lvl 17 Crusader here and my friend who is a lvl 20 inquistor draws major aggro and holds it pretty well....still get's heals off... makes me think  that healers can solo pretty good huh?  I can never draw aggro off him... no matter what combo of skills I try.  My taunts are mostly app3's with a little adept 1's thrown in...</DIV>

Bellic
12-01-2004, 07:40 AM
<DIV>As a SA i use ancient pledge more than OOA  when I MA which is most of the time. I buff my self with Vigor of trust blessed weapon (procs help aggro i beleive)  and Knight stance. I use shout, Cry of conviction (when its safe to do so) shield bash and Charge. Now being nearly 22 I use Graven embrace when its needed. Still need to play with the new decay area attack seems like its a upgrade to assult.</DIV>

Zutan
12-01-2004, 07:47 AM
<DIV>If anyone in the group is higher level than the Tank, that other person will be more likely to draw agro away from the tank. The tank will then have a much harder time getting that agro back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is even more apparent if the mobs in the fight are higher level than the tank is.</DIV>

WuphonsReach
12-01-2004, 07:26 PM
We went into Zarvonn's valley last night (these are level 19 mobs that come in packs of 5, then ultimately a level 22++ mob shows up).Level 20 inquisitor, 3 wizard-types from 17-20, level 17 or 18 rogue, and me (18 crusader).This is a good test of aggro control since there all the yard trash comes in groups of 5. As long as the group followed the initial spell sequence, aggro never left me once the mobs were beating on me. But at least a few pulls, someone would cast during incoming and pull the mobs onto themselves (usually one of the wizard-types) and I'd have to shout/ward in order to pull aggro back. Eventually, we got folks to listen and follow our sequence.1. Healer casts either a ward or heal-over-time on me (forget spell)2. I cast a ward on myself3. Announce incoming with a hot-key (/gsay INCOMING [ %T ])4. Pull with Righteous Anger5. Start my HO as the mobs run towards me6. Advance my HO with any of my special attacks7. Complete the wheel by using ShoutOnce they saw the HO complete and the wheel vanish, they were able to light up (3 wizards = lots of AoE spells) without issue. I mainly cast my ward spell and used up my 2 AoE attacks and just stood there and took the damage. It just requires that the group has about 5-10 seconds of patience before they start beating on the mob or casting spells.

Chickenha
12-01-2004, 08:28 PM
<DIV>I suppose I'm fairly lucky, I have some RL friends I play with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our group consists of..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A Guardian, an Inquisitor, a Necromancer and myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a result I've had quite a lot of practice with holding and keeping aggro, myself and the Guardian constantly have taunt competitions, admittadely this before we all reached Subclass...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Beleive it or not the necro chaincasting spells was the biggest threat at first, however with a couple of taunts to start the encounter this is rarely a problem, as for the inquisitor (cleric) taking agg, I've never had a problem keeping agg off him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Getting agg back off him was also never a problem, if it was I'd just put Demonstration of Faith on the Cleric whilst I get agg back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My current feelings are, we are the second best aggro puller in the game, higher DPS is always a threat at this stage of the game, however as the disease spells come in I'm sure it will become less and less of a problem, hopefully increasing the level of damage dealer that can take agg through pure damage by at least 5 levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for guardians, I can take agg off a Guardian, I can keep it if he doesnt watch himself, if he really wants it then he will take it back, I have no doubt about that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Prior to my friend becoming a Guardian I could keep agg off him, if he put "Hold the Line" (which induces hate through every hit dealt) then I'd have to spam my taunts to keep agg, if he and I both spammed it would be a toss up as to who got agg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Looking at the taunts/agg spells to come the Guardian is going to have little trouble keeping agg over us, which is how it should be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As the levels fly by we'll get better at taking and keeping agg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the extra taunts removed since beta were probably designed to give the Guardians a break, they should be able to keep agg over us, so they nerfed our taunt ability a little, just means we have a tougher time earlier on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

darkshadow1
12-03-2004, 12:05 AM
<DIV>Wait.... so SK's hit less hard than Scouts?</DIV> <DIV>I thought we were the big tough guys on the front of the line and scouts were sneaky stealth guys....</DIV> <DIV>I'm confused... Are we just supposed to take damage instead of dealing it?</DIV> <DIV>Thanks in advance</DIV>

WuphonsReach
12-03-2004, 12:52 AM
SKs are not damage dealers.Scouts (especially rogues and rangers) are almost pure damage (along with wizards).Our job is to either play tank or assist the main tank. So we get a combination of offense and defense spells/skills rather then a focus on damage.

Kredoc
12-03-2004, 02:01 AM
<DIV>Level 21 SK</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At this point I've mostly been tank for a trio, which I can generally do no problem. I can also solo fairly well when needed, and have main tanked for full parties with little problem keeping aggro (unless nukers go nuts, and in that case they deserve what they get <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The worse case so far has been tanking with a full out offensive dual-wield berserker in the group. They seem to gen a lot of hate, and go down really fast if they get aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>