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View Full Version : Class Balance: Battle Cry vs... ? ? ?


Mogrim
11-11-2015, 05:29 PM
Just a quick thing to probably look at. Battle Cry can realistically give a scout upwards of 600-700 potency as a maintained buff. <br /><br />This alone is a massively huge upgrade for T1 scouts. Not to mention, they already got upgrades w/ the upcoming xpac. <br /><br />On the flipside... Troubs get a boost to Energizing Ballad that equates to at best about 150pot, not maintained, and on a long recast. I really think the solution is to give something similar to Battle Cry on Upbeat Tempo. <br /><br />Otherwise, the DPS hierarchy this xpac is going to be<br /><br />Beastlords about 50% more damage to double damage of Assassins<br /> <br />Assassins, without any real competition for 2nd best dps, and then <br /> <br />Rangers, Brigands, and Swashbucklers, well above any mages.<br /> <br /> <br />The other issues going on, is that Mage-related temps are simply not scaling well. Not only are Dirges far more powerful than Troubs now, but with the growth of SDA, Illusionists really are losing significance every day.

Kham
11-11-2015, 05:42 PM
with the cap on wpn dmg bonus and crit bonus that list isnt going to shake out like that and we both know it.... but sadly, im very sad to say this but I do have to agree with mogrim on the needing of a troub equivalent. There is a first time for everything.

Errrorr
11-11-2015, 05:44 PM
If you are volunteering to cut all your mage spells down to the same level of base damage that scout CA's have, feel free.<br /> <br />Scouts took 2 hits this expac - WDB Nerf, and Hemo Nerf.<br /> <br />Allowing 2 scouts in a raid the chance to stand a chance at getting near mages is hardly game changing.<br /> <br />This is also ignoring the fact that the mage equivalent - UT, has been drastically better than BC for years.

Mogrim
11-11-2015, 05:47 PM
The WDB nerf hit all classes, but the boost to ability damage and utility usefulness is enough of a gain for scouts to well over compensate for that, friend.

Errrorr
11-11-2015, 05:48 PM
The WDB nerf hit scouts who's auto attack was still 30% of a parse when not speccing for it, a lot more than Mages who'd maybe hit 10% auto attack damage on a parse. <br /> <br />And the fact Hemo's basically don't scale above 1.5k Pot/CB?

Mogrim
11-11-2015, 05:54 PM
I'm just saying this: Class Balance went from Warlocks dominating parses that were ridiculously short sample sizes with sustained fights being balanced to now, a mage really has no chance to compete in the same ballpark as the 2 T1 scouts in raid that get BC. We're talking laughable gaps on the parse here. We're talking sustained AND short fights being absolutely non-competative.

Errrorr
11-11-2015, 05:59 PM
So make a troub equivalent buff, and make it single target? Then you just get 1 Mage > other Mages.<br /> <br />Make the mage buff groupwide? Then people will complain it's still not enough, or makes Mages too powerful versus scouts.<br /> <br />All while we are still in Beta. Perhaps it'd just make a big more sense to wait for the numbers to be monitored properly in real situations (Not Beta.) and then tune Battle Cry accordingly after that.<br /> <br />Making calm and logical decisions after observing balance beats making random rash last minute changes to try balance.

Jokirr
11-11-2015, 06:16 PM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Errrorr"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Errrorr said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6282057#post-6282057" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">All while we are still in Beta. Perhaps it'd just make a big more sense to wait for the numbers to be monitored properly in real situations (Not Beta.) and then tune Battle Cry accordingly after that.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />I really feel we'd be waiting a long long time for a later date tuning post beta.

Azhurial
11-11-2015, 06:59 PM
Mogrim is right about some balance issues here, and to make it worse, after mages start picking up new cloaks and belts without the flurry, troubs should probably just cast EB on the top scouts.<br /> <br />As an illusionist it pains me to look at what has become of most of the class defining abilities we have. Time Warp has been talked about quite a bit, but other the other endlines don't have much going for them these days either. AoI just saves someone a screams rune. IA is pretty much nothing anymore. TC would have still been at least something until now, but most mages would just rather self UT. Even EV only accounts for a boost of less than 5% for a T1 mage in combat, and those are AoM numbers.<br /> <br />With the xpac launch so close, I doubt to see any other major class changes, but it will be interesting to see how some of this plays out over the first few months of ToT.

Olli
11-12-2015, 03:51 PM
The other issues going on, is that Mage-related temps are simply not scaling well. Not only are Dirges far more powerful than Troubs now, but with the growth of SDA, Illusionists really are losing significance every day.<br /> <br />i think coercers are in a far worse way

Aragost
11-12-2015, 10:55 PM
I really hate it when I agree with Mogrim

Laserbeak
11-12-2015, 10:56 PM
So... what i read here. "I used to double everyone and it was balanced.. and now that I cant.. its unbalanced" -Any Mage ToT 2015, Seems legit.

Laserbeak
11-12-2015, 10:58 PM
Also Idk where mogrim gets these numbers... he beat our ranger..on every fight.. infact he beat everyone on any aoe fight.. and lost by 15% on single target fights... and mogrim we both know.. that 20-30% of othions parse was a ranged proc... and take that away me you and him would've been almost dead nuts.. I can provide all said parses.

Arieva
11-12-2015, 11:25 PM
I agree with the premise of the original post that the troub effect that converts to potency should be put on UT, not Energizing ballad. Ballad was already useful. Not something they would spam with each reuse refresh but still, useful. More than once have I called for a troub power feed in raid because chanters are either MIA, or forget they have a power feed (illy's!) It gets used already. Making it the potency buff will just cause troubs to waste the power feed component of the spell to try and buff someones potency..is that really the intent? On the other hand the only time UT gets put on anyone besides the troub themselves is when a druid in the group really wants/needs it. I also agree that flurry to potency is a little odd considering you are dropping flurry from cloaks/belts for mages.. I have excess MA on a mage on beta in all new gear that I just can't seem to get rid of, and am having a hard time justifying dropping my old cloak/belt with both flurry and SDA.

Laserbeak
11-12-2015, 11:57 PM
right arieva but it wont be as OP as BC.. because not worth for mages to get 1xxx MA... right? or can you afford taking that much MA?

kluxor
11-13-2015, 12:23 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Laserbeak"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Laserbeak said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6282853#post-6282853" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Also Idk where mogrim gets these numbers... he beat our ranger..on every fight.. infact he beat everyone on any aoe fight.. and lost by 15% on single target fights... and mogrim we both know.. that 20-30% of othions parse was a ranged proc... and take that away me you and him would've been almost dead nuts.. I can provide all said parses.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>glad I'm not the only one who's seen the brokenness of the ranged relic

Koko
11-13-2015, 12:50 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Mogrim"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Mogrim said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6282034#post-6282034" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Beastlords about 50% more damage to double damage of Assassins</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Great, still not running one over an assassin.<br />#t1utilitytoostrong<br /> <br />Love to see the derivation of your numbers though, even if it is something simple such as my priest HPS chart.<br />[edit]#non-anecdotalevidience2016

Arieva
11-15-2015, 09:50 AM
<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Laserbeak"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Laserbeak said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6282878#post-6282878" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">right arieva but it wont be as OP as BC.. because not worth for mages to get 1xxx MA... right? or can you afford taking that much MA?</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Probably so, but from what I'm seeing of itemization they may hamstring mages into excess amounts of MA, possibly moreso than flurry because I'm just not seeing the itemization for flurry.. if we want to keep decent amounts of flurry we'll have to keep old tier cloak and belt (unless they wisen up and put it on the ToT cloaks and belts.) They are pinning us into being unable to reforge into certain stats like ability mod so certain melee stats are just going to accumulate. I just don't see flurry being one of them. Either way I spose it depends on how they setup the buff and the conversion. Choosing UT as opposed to EB is a no brainer though for the reasons I stated previously.

Arieva
11-15-2015, 09:51 AM
Another option might be..excess aoe auto? Just spitballing here